Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: AKSeaWulfe on October 29, 2000, 08:49:00 PM
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BS aside, why is everyone jumping on dead aircraft with an "invisible" wing?
In case you are thick headed, I'm referring to DEAD planes. If they are missing a vert stab, they are dead. A wing, dead. THE ENTIRE TAIL SECTION.. Must I really answer that one?
Gimme a freakin break here. Tonite I pulled onto the 6 of a 109, after a few seconds I get into range and pour 2x20mm mausers into his right wing. Entire thing falls off(I only hit him 5 or 6 times), and I think "he's dead". But wait.. what's this? A fellow countryman must think his wing adopted the technology to become invisible(10bears, that new technology is dangerous eh? Spinning around on one wing in a vertical fashion.. ouch!), so he continues for not a burst but for an entire 2 seconds putting bullets into him. Oh not this again. He gets the kill.
This isn't the first time, in fact TWICE in less than TWO minutes on saturday(or was it friday????? I know someone remembers me squeaking about it) I watched as countrymen gunned down aircraft missing vital parts neccessary to retain a state of aerial presence.
Am I missing something here? Do planes magically recover missing the entire tail section or an entire wing? No.. not half a wing.. the whole freaking thing.
It's rediculous.
It's lame.
It's getting old real quick. I'm done doing the work for you crackheads, spewing me this line "oh but I really didn't see it". Yeah, maybe AH should claim with the disclaimer: Warning only for players with eyeballs in socket that can see.
-SW
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Yep, just heard you squeaking about it. I was in an M3 just SE of A21, waiting for Someone to get the AAA down. Unfortunately, Someone never showed up and I was nailed by a hiding Ostwind when I tried taking the place. No one told me there was an Ostwind there, or that the AAA was indeed down. 134 people online, 43 of them Knights, 3 guys either over or ON the field, and not one that knows how to tell someone "The ack's still up" or "there's a flakpzr in the maproom".
The utter lack of communication in there is staggering. Co-ordination is nearly non-existant. I'll stick to H2H after today, at least in there you don't have to rip someone a new one just to get an answer. Between kill-theves and people who don't know how to use the radio it's highly irritating. The Knight country channel was mostly filled with whines, idle conversation, or questions like "How do u dump DTs?".
I'd like to be able to squelch channel 2 on some occasions, like tonight. Instead of screaming on the radio, switching sides, or sitting there drooling I simply logged out.
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Flakbait
Delta 6's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
"My art is the wings of an aircraft through the skies, my music the deep hum of a prop as it slices the air, my thrill the thunder of guns tearing asunder an enemy plane."
Flakbait
19 September 2000
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SW, I've personally flown an AH aircraft 30 miles with a wing missing and bailed over home. I don't think the pilot that took my wing off got a kill. So you might do what I do to avoid this source of fustration for ya and fill that enemy sucker with hot lead unitl it vaporizes. Just a suggestion.
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ezdoc
48th Fighter Group "Checkertails"
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No wing. None what-so-ever. This is 1.04, planes don't do anything except lawn dart with only 1 wing left.
-SW
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I can land a plane with alf a wing missing if I still have my rudders, taxy back to the runway and have a successfull landing.
but I think that what you are describing are people stealing your kill (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Well happens to me too... kids ... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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AKSW,
Are you saying that you have clipped a enemy plane then had a fellow countryman come along and zap the helpless con thereby getting the kill instead of you?
If so, then this: Your fellow countryman saying he did not recognise that the enemy plane was doomed, that it indeed was all together and not damaged in any way? And consequently splayed it himself in a deserving and honorable fashion!
Is this what you are saying?
Just to be clear?
Yeager
[This message has been edited by Yeager (edited 10-29-2000).]
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LOL, I've flown and landed (yes, I did the whole landing pattern) HOGs and FWs missing two half wings. Yes, I had to use the rudder to turn, but she flew pretty well.
If you can fly and shoot, you are a target.
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GATT
4° Stormo Caccia - Knights (http://www.4stormo.it)
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I think he's refering to gunning planes that are missing an entire wing HALF from the fuselage out.. planes that no longer have entire empenage (tail section compleatly gone; rudder/dorsal gone; entire stab AND elev shot away)
In other words.. DEAD planes that have a pilot still in it; that have not exploded. Yet. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
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Yah but is a whole other deal when tail gone/whole wing gone etc.
Some knits are notorious kill stealers and repeatedly do it.
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.angelfire.com/nt/regoch/sig.gif)
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I dont like kill-stealers. But sometimes the situation is not so clear. One week ago, I bounced a HOG coming out of the clouds. I cut-off his right wing. After the zoom I watched him. He was still flying and heading to the big melee over a field.
Well, I had to chase him and make him explode. He was still a threat for other Knights (snapshots, you know?). If another Knight did it, no problem for me, I dont care anymore about points and kills, but it is just MHO.
Other times its not easy to spot a missing horizontal stab. Other times there are real kill-stealers around and you are right. In the MA these kind of things happen. Moreover, main arena furballs and this strange FM/DM make it easier.
[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 10-30-2000).]
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We've all had kills stolen. Sometimes it's intentional, sometimes not ( heat of battle).
I'm having a hard time figuring out the scoring system as it is.
Situation: You come on an enemy buff that someone is working, he has the thing smoking, but its flying fine. He has either (attacking fighter) been shot down, or is extending for another run. You make your run and blow the buffs wing off, or blow the whole thing up, and.... get the assist. Now, what's that all about?
...Weave
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ya know, I know exactly what you are talking about SW. I have had pilots so greedy that they killshooter themselves on me. And like you I'll mortally wound a plane and break off only to have others that were in pursuit contibnue on to get the kill.
Well, If I got paid for those kills..well i would prolly get a little mad. And at times I have gotten a little frustrated. But mostly I just let it go (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) And I log off when i get a belly full. Nothing wrong with being competitive, I have just found something that keeps me from expending too much energy.
ammo
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Just the other day I pinged a chog a little and then saw Skua shoot half his wing off. Feeling polite I did not want to "steal" his kill, and just flew behind this hog (on deck) a while not shooting because I expexted him to crash. Then I was forced to abandon him, and he disappeared rapidly from sight. Half an hour went by, but no assist announcement came. He must have made it home.
So, from now on I'll keep firing until enemy pilot is in chute. And I don't care about if someone "steals" my kill, we rooks are supposed to be on the same side imho.. I'll take all the help I can get. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
2Cool
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"It isn't allways bein' fast or even accurate that counts; it's bein' willing."
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I've gotten into the habit of aiming for the empenage, looking to pop the Vstab and Hstabs off a target. I'll put in a quick burst and peel the control surfaces off and move on the next target since the one front of me is no longer a threat.
Did this to 4 kites in one sortie, and got nothing but assists on all 4 (was the first to fire on them). I landed, logged off, and went to fly CFS2.
Kinda hard to tell if a kite is still a threat when it's spinning wildly out of control ain't it? Especially if he's laying down on the trigger and creating a fan of tracers (which should be the first clue he's dead).
I'm hoping that, with the perk system coming, something is done the damage/scoring system that locks the kill to whoever peeled off the control surfaces/does the damage that makes the enemy kite no longer airworthy. Otherwise we're going to see a massive influx in kill stealers who are trying to load up on perk points w/o actually earning them. I see where this could be a VERY large problem if not addressed before the perk planes are introduced.
The past couple of days I've laid on the trigger til they target explodes or is smoking so heavily there can be no doubt about his fate.
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thought this was a team thing, who cares who gets the kill. If it's flying and a threat, take it out. If it's spiraling down, find another target. Simple. Wouldn't let it bother you too much.
Eagler
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well... kill stealing or not asside... The problem is related to the AH "last to die get's the kill" In AH everyone tries to keep from hitting the ground for as long as possible since they will lose any kills that may be in progress.
lazs
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Fix those Hog C guns...
Who knows how many times someo Hog C guy gets kill if he comes to strafe the tank I am shooting in a tank, while I am trying to punch a hole through it.
Like in one case where I hit tank 6 times; I hit him, then second time he loses turret and then Hog C guy comes and makes couple passes during 2 to 5 shots and then with 6th shot I get that final hit which almost instantly sends the guy back to the hell.
but WHAT, the Hog C pilot gets the kill. (!?)
For what he gets kill? killing dead turret, wounding driver?
I didn't see his tracks or engine being damaged, not even on my hits.. just turret and total boom.
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Originally posted by Fishu:
Fix those Hog C guns...
Who knows how many times someo Hog C guy gets kill if he comes to strafe the tank I am shooting in a tank, while I am trying to punch a hole through it.
Like in one case where I hit tank 6 times; I hit him, then second time he loses turret and then Hog C guy comes and makes couple passes during 2 to 5 shots and then with 6th shot I get that final hit which almost instantly sends the guy back to the hell.
but WHAT, the Hog C pilot gets the kill. (!?)
For what he gets kill? killing dead turret, wounding driver?
I didn't see his tracks or engine being damaged, not even on my hits.. just turret and total boom.
Quit the damn whining about the -1C already. It's already gotten super old.
The sortie I described above, where I only got assists when I was the first to fire on the target, and peeled off his Vstab and/or Hstabs... guess what I was flying.
Yup, the F4U-1C. And I only got ASSISTS!!!
Eagler after getting position and peeling off something vital to flight I just like to see "Victory # by CavemanJ of The Wrecking Crew". And with the perk system rapidly approaching getting the kills and landing them will be come more important. I'd like to take the F4U-4 or Yak-9UT for a spin, but with sorties like I described above, where I knocked the bandit out of flight but someone stole my kill, it'll take alot longer.
Why should I provide easy targets for unskilled vulchers to rack up kills on and get into perk rides? With things like they currently are, I see kill stealing only getting worse.
The worst is when a country man flies right into your guns while you're firing on a bandit. You get killshootered and they get the kill. Gonna make some people awfully mad when they do it to ya and you're in a perk ride.
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"BS aside, why is everyone jumping on dead aircraft with an "invisible" wing?"
Simple. It's about points.. Alot of the new guys (not just new guys though) aka the pirhana, or hyenas, are trying to snag at least an "assist" if not a steal by "popping" the bogy before they impact or bail.
We need friendy fire on. I want to shoot some of these guys down too when they do it.
-Westy
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What really gets ya.
Is when you clear a guy by shreading the guy on his 6. He then chases that kill instead of helping you with the con that is still active. I have seen 4 knights chase a kill down and ignore my ongoing battle with his wingman.
But that is a pretty extreme occurance. For the most part I would say that kill stealing is not any more prevelant than at any other time in the past year.
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Originally posted by ezdoc:
SW, I've personally flown an AH aircraft 30 miles with a wing missing and bailed over home. I don't think the pilot that took my wing off got a kill. So you might do what I do to avoid this source of fustration for ya and fill that enemy sucker with hot lead unitl it vaporizes. Just a suggestion.
But when the thing is litterally falling out of the sky (as happens when you take chunks of the tail off) and people are shooting it they are just stupid.
BTW plane explosions bug me, it just doesn't happen that way in real life...
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Originally posted by SFRT - Frenchy:
I can land a plane with alf a wing missing if I still have my rudders, taxy back to the runway and have a successfull landing.
Not all of them. Typhoon for one can't keep wings level with the outer left wing missing at a low enough speed to get the gear out.
Since the ditching code was 'fixed' if you belly land, no matter how gently, at more than about 100mph you explode =(
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2 nights ago, I lost my tail and was spiraling down. I was about to bail, but noticed a bunch of tracers zipping by. I rode it down and lmao at the 3 bishes chasing my spinning carcass to the deck pumping it full of ammo. It was a hilarious sight, like a bunch of kids fighting over the last cookie.
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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
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Hi
I had a few of my kils lost that way, but usually seems accidental. Like when I took the wingtip off this yak and one of my teamates blew him up just as I flew by, he got credit for it, but it was just in the heat of the moment nothing sinister bout it.
thanks GRUNHERZ
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Eagler: Yes it's a team game. But where's the "teamwork" in killing an already dead fighter? Let me put it another way, there is no wing what-so-ever or no tail section. Missing one or the other or a combination of both will cause an airplane to fall from the sky faster than Bill Gates going to hell. This last fight in which 10bears shot a completely wingless plane and got credit for it was over an enemy field. There was a 3:1 ratio of enemy fighters. Instead of being part of the team by killing a fighter that can and will eventually kill him, he decides to go for a completely dead aircraft which I dismembered. I escaped with 4 kills and 2 assists in my Fw, he died with 1 kill which he stole from me.
This has gone from team play, to essentially an FFA with teams. Every gang rapes the single low con while there are half a dozen more inbound about to blast their stoopid butts into oblivion. Teamwork? Bah! That's stoopidity.
You can call me greedy, but if I worked for the kill and *I* am the ONLY one who gunned this airplane's essential parts off, I think I should be able to see my name in the kill buffer with an incremental victory next to it. It's like this: You are at work with a development team trying to figure out a new revolutionary way to sell products. YOU are the one that came up with the idea and you present it to another member of the team. BUT the person that comes up with the idea gets a bonus. Lo and behold, a meeting comes up and your love muffin member of that team presents the idea and gets the bonus. You? You get shafted.
Don't sound like fun does it?
-SW
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OK AKSW,
I understand. As long as I have been doing this sim stuff online there has always been this process of gunning anything that is enemy (including chutes) alive, half dead and dead.
In my experience the rate at which this occurs is cyclic. Sometimes it happens alot, sometimes in happens infrefequently.
I admit to doing it myself (from time to time) and usually its in the heat of battle.
Also, a lot of folks lately are tying AH out for the first time in a long time if at all.
This is mostly a rookie problem and I wouldnt let it get the best of you.
Yeager
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Yeah this 'train' sydrome really bugs me.
You drop onto someone's 6 and take the time to close to effective distance while they try and shake you (I'm flying the Yak ( a lot, got to get in close) a gick look over your shoulder to make sure he has no team mates doing the same to you and you see half the friendlys in the area 2-300 yards behind you. After dispatching the hapless enemy at the front of this train the whole lot of you are downed in a couple of passes from higher faster enemies that the guys in the back should have stayed high looking for. I guess they'll learn someday.
This does have a flipside though. You can trigger the same thing by flying through a cloud of enemies at high speed and drag three or four of them off into the middle of no-where (and out of the fight) much quicker and easier than shooting them down (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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SW if you'll be angry in future that someone stealed your kill tyr to think that way: how poor skills he have that he must steal effect of your work? if he have no class at all it means that he have a problem, not you! if you know that it was your kill, enjoy that feeling. you deserved it, and don't let someone steal you that feeling. just have fun. it's more important that stats (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
<S>
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bikekil
308 (Polish) Squadron RAF "City of Cracow"
(http://www.raf303.org/308/308banner.gif)
....come and get it
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Got the film SeaWolf?.. I'm sure you do otherwise you wouldn't post my name on this forum.. anyway you can send it to me at bear1@bigisland.com I can't see myself wasting ammo on an already dead plane..
Also in the future if you have a beef with me I'd prefer you use email.. Thank you
young man
10Bears--
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10Bears.....get on a real island (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) j/k Howzit? Don't see many people from Hawaii on.
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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
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I wonder how the points system for perk planes will play into this. The more points, the more perk planes. I imagine finishing someone else's kill will likely be easier than doing it all on their own. Gaming the game will reach new heights.... or lows.
Mav
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I've had guys gripe at me for shooting "dead" planes that appeared to me to be maneuvering and firing. When in doubt, shoot them.
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I shot 'something' off the tailend of a spitfire once, and called it dead on the radio since I clearly saw bits fell off the darn thing's tail. It's trailing smoke, twisting downward in a spiral to it's death, right?
Wrong, the bloody thing pulls out on the deck and starts chasing friendlies. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) Needless to say, I felt a bit chagrined to have let that happen, especially since when I called it dead, another countryman was about to shoot, and graciously flew off (though I recall him saying "just saw that" as he did)
Another time, I saw the outer part of a wing fall off of a F4U, watched it spiral downward, only to pull out and fly off like a scalded cat (no animals were injured in this analogy).
So, to put a point to this story, even if I'm seeing bits fall off enemy planes, I tend to continue shooting, even if I'm not the one that originally did the damage. Until I can clearly see the bogey tumbling out of control, I consider the bogey a threat.
Cheers
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No, I don't record my flights normally. Why should I? I wouldn't expect occurances like these to occur. I told you on purple and green comms, no reply from you. Typically when I pull onto a plane six, pull lead, let a good burst rip, see multiple pings on his right wing followed by it coming off, but still see tracers being fired, look behind me and see your 109 pulling in to shoot down an already dead plane.. well that's quite good enough for me. I don't need proof, I saw it with my own two eyeballs. I was in the lead position, I took off his wing, then you pull in there. If you think saying "well I need a film otherwise it isn't true" clears you, it doesn't.
I don't need proof to prove what I saw.
-SW
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Vosper, as I thought I clearly stated before.. the ENTIRE wing fell off. Nope, not just half of it. Not just the outer wing.. the entire damn thing. Or the tail section.. nope not just one small piece.. the entire section behind the cockpit. Or the horiz stab, not just the rudder.. the entire damn thing.. and so on.
I don't care if someone kills a plane missing 1/2 of it's wing.. or only one of it's elevators.. or just little pieces. As I CLEARLY stated before.. parts NECESSARY to RETAIN flight.
-SW
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never told this before outside of private boards but, the reason I left JG2 was a kill steal.
I wont go into further detail about the identity of the stealer, but the thing is that with the old FM Fw190A8 I got Camo's G2.
I got his wing (ALL the wing) in a fight that started with me in E disadvantage.
Camo is for me one of the 5 best pilots in AH, and when I saw a bish G2 I knew that prolly was him. And to get him in a Fw190A8, with less E, was for me a big big thing.
I got his wing at more than 10K, maybe 15K. His plane was going down fast fast, and I even said in country channel "the 109 is dead", only to avoind "accidents".
A F!·$"%ing stealer, wich happened to be on my own squad, came at treetop level (yessir, at treetop level, seing it falling from the sky like a piece of iron in free fall) and killed him. Got him remorseless...and there was NO doubt that Camo's plane was a ded plane.
No F$@ing way, of course that pissed me off to the point that now 4 months after it, I still remember it with anger. And well that was the detonant and I left JG2 at once (there were many things at that time, but that is past water).
I left JG2 not only because the stealer but for the fact that many people here thinks that "its dead so everyone is happy".
Well, no sir, if I get an ace like Camo in his G2 I WANT the damned kill in the buffer WITH MY HANDLE. Call it egoism, call it like you want to call it.Stupidity, narcisism ,whatever. If I kill the dweebest newbie's plane, I want MY name in the buffer, not some stealer's.
The "if its airborne is legal" theory is so full of toejam that sometimes I want to puke all over it. If a plane has no tail, no wing and is going down in flames there is NO right to get it and finish it.
so <FINGER> to all those damned stealers that do it in purpose. toejam happens, of course and sometimes I have seen some prey of mine gone because someone dived in last moment and got him unaware that he was dead. No biggie, it pisses me off a bit but I know that it is an accident (and that some times I have been the accidental bouncer, too).
But to go after a dead con, burning, wingless, or tailless, is abominable IMO.
SW I understand you perfectly. Such morons suck. Bigtime.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 10-31-2000).]
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Yes, wulf, I heard what you said, many many times. My post was in support, sort of, of funked's post just above mine. Given the way some of the (still valid) posts in this thread tend to wander around the topic, I didn't think it would be mistaken as rebuttal or such for your concern.
If one reads my post, then "tumbling out of control" would easily encompass wingless/tailess planes, even if I did not use those exact words.
Cheers
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Better keeeel em dead cause I'm comin guns ablazin!
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I usually just think it is funny.
And...
I just love stealing CavemanJ's kills. I dunno why? The thrill of it I guess! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
"Hind tit suckin whiners. Begone with yah!"
Hangtime