Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Russian on October 20, 2003, 02:37:56 PM
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http://www.il2sturmovik-fr.com/the_game/fb_development.php
(http://www.il2sturmovik-fr.com/the_game/screenshots/P-51_Normandy_05.jpg)
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As much as I want to see the Pony. I don't think it's going to be as good as it should be. As it stands Oleg still hasn't fix the issue at hand with the Jug's and the P-39 is like uber beyond all means.
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Pony should be like P39, right? :rolleyes:
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Are the flight models going to change? Once again? :rolleyes: That sim sure did look pretty but once I got past that I realized that it doesn't offer much else. Haven't played since the patch debacle a couple of months ago.
I think it's funny that Oleg's fanboi's tout that thing as the best FM evar. Yet it keeps changing with each patch. Kudo's to Pyro and HT! You guys do it right the first time, ok well maybe the first or second time. But it doesn't take to the 4th or 5th or 6th......
I doubt I get oleg's next offering.
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I agree. The FM's suck. I was on these boards when Il2 first came out telling people to calm down about the FM's. The AI is great for a offline sim. The eye candy...well.
I have also mentioned that Oleg will never give the US planes thier proper due. Come -on..Russian project published by a French company? Do you think the P-47 would be right? What about the P-51 ? Anything published by a French company and written by a Russian is bound to be biased. I won't buy Lock-on for this reason-never.........
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Atleast get the facts straight Honky, the P39 is one of the most uber planes in that game. Guess who built the engine and the airframe. Or the Brewster B-239.
Don't be a tard over that percieved bias, same BS people said about Aces High. If you buy into that bias crap, I'll sell you a silver dollar for $1,000,000.
-SW
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Look even the title of the sim smacks of "You spoiled Yankees- You think your so great and you've Forgotten our Battles." The P-39 was cast off by the US. The Brewster was also. Only two good planes in the set were rejected by US. Have you seen the performance curves extracted directly from the Game???? Look at the Russian UFO's.
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simply gorgeous
(http://www.il2sturmovik.com/forgotten_battles/devupdate/6Oct/grab0011.jpg)
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Originally posted by Udie
Are the flight models going to change? Once again? :rolleyes: That sim sure did look pretty but once I got past that I realized that it doesn't offer much else. Haven't played since the patch debacle a couple of months ago.
I think it's funny that Oleg's fanboi's tout that thing as the best FM evar. Yet it keeps changing with each patch. Kudo's to Pyro and HT! You guys do it right the first time, ok well maybe the first or second time. But it doesn't take to the 4th or 5th or 6th......
I doubt I get oleg's next offering.
All this FM changes showing that team is working on it. Key word is they are working on it. Let me repeat that, they are working on it. Something that HT maybe should start working on? Or you are saying its perfect as is?
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Ah, so thats what your problem is... "I want a Western Front game with US planes! Why did you go and make a game forcing these planes down our throat which I had to buy because you are an uber communist with the KGB in control of my money!" If you weren't interested in that theater, why in the hell would you even bother with it then? I mean, damn, would you buy a Ford when you know you won't be happy with it and really want a Chevy?!
I still don't see how this "data" was extracted from the game, since the flight model data is in an encrypted file.
The P39D was cast off from the US because of its poor high altitude performance. Information break through: The plane featured in Il2 and FB is the P39N which was vastly improved over the D models the US and Britain used, AND it is ONLY good at mid to low altitudes in the game.
The Brewster was cast off in favor of the F4F because, tah dah!, the F4F had wings that could fold up and was just a little bit faster. Britain used the Brewster quite extensively and were successful with it. Just because the US cast them off does not make them poor planes, they didn't fit in with the high altitude desires the USAAF and USN had.
Guess what? Take that P47 up to high altitude, where it belongs, and you'll have no problems with anything. It belongs above 6000meters in the game.
No, the FMs aren't perfect and many of them aren't right. But each patch has brought advantages to one side or the other. Atleast if you understand some very simple things, you'll see that while some planes are screwy, the majority still rule in their respective performance envelopes.
All German airplanes and the P47 (P51 when it gets added in) belong above 5500 - 6000meters to really be good. All Russian planes, except the MiG 3 (all variants except the AM-38) are great BELOW 3000meters. Mediocre at 4000meters, and SUCK above that. MiG3 great above 6000meters, SUCKS below 4000meters. Hurricanes, SUCK above 4000meters. Pretty good 2500-3500meters. Okay below that when matched against Russian planes.
As for your comprehensive tests done by Il2compare, it only tested the AI variants of the flight models using closed radiators. Not exactly a worthwhile test on the more modelled versions the humans control.
-SW
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The performance curves were/are directly extracted from the game. Don't have a link for them but I'll look.
THE P-47's ROLL IS A JOKE.
THE 6x50 cals ARE A JOKE.
ALL Russian Planes have about 20%+ fluff in them. Check the Il2 forum for the curves that have caused an uproar. Its a joke. I don't trust those greasy UBI guys either. I can see them hanging out in Paris with Oleg say Oui Oui- we screwed those American flight sim fans. Oui Oui...
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I can see them hanging out in Paris with Oleg say Oui Oui- we screwed those American flight sim fans. Oui Oui...
There's some real paranoia going on here...
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Originally posted by Russian
All this FM changes showing that team is working on it. Key word is they are working on it. Let me repeat that, they are working on it. Something that HT maybe should start working on? Or you are saying its perfect as is?
Sorry that doesn't cut it. The types of MAJOR fm changes that have come with every patch and force you to re-learn each AC EVERY PATCH tells me a lot. I've been at this too long to think there will ever be a "perfect" FM simulated. Torque isn't even modelled, or is modelled very poorly in IL2. There's a button for it in the set up but I have yet to notice any diference. Besides that, one patch the 109 will outclimb just about anything (prolly close to real life) the next patch the 109 won't outclimb anything. The next one it does again. How many different 190 FM's have there been? I like the current one, but come on man. Now I hear that the new planes were made by players? No thanks, I'm out.......
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Originally posted by MC_Honky
The performance curves were/are directly extracted from the game. Don't have a link for them but I'll look.
I've seen that, and as I just stated - those are performance curves for the AI planes. They do not perform like the human planes do, and perform better by as much as 30%.
Like I said, it isn't proof of a bias - atleast in the FM us humans must use.
The roll rate in the P47 is slow, but hopefully will be fixed. The 6x.50s are fine. The 8x.50s are a little weak, but neverthelesss, I can down 2 to 3 planes a fight if I have that many targets.
I'm an American and I don't feel screwed, I think the only people that think they got screwed are the same people that complain to a manager that there was a piece of lettuce on the cheeseburger and now demand four free cheeseburgers with a soda.
-SW
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Originally posted by Udie
Now I hear that the new planes were made by players? No thanks, I'm out.......
Uh Udie, you may have been doing these for a long time - but man, you need to read about who is doing what. Theres a lot of user made aircraft already in FB. They only make the cockpit and 3D models, they do NOT do anything with the flight model. That is entirely in house right there.
-SW
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I meant 8x 50 cals. and udie is right. he didn't even mention the high altitude problems. it WAS like flying in goo. the p-47- I was told- didn't get the 2nd stage of its turbo charger because the 10 or 11 examples the Russians got didn't have them installed. WTF ? Put a P-47 in to sell more in the American market then castrate it!!! Now they are putting a Jap plane on the cover for release in Japan. No carriers, no f4f no f6f no f4u no jap objects no jap ships. WTF ?? The Japanese market will feel screwed like we did.
OH...btw- the P-47 couldn't outrun the stuka at 30k now it magicaly can?? WTF- did we get the 2 stage super. now with this patch??
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Uh Udie, you may have been doing these for a long time - but man, you need to read about who is doing what. Theres a lot of user made aircraft already in FB. They only make the cockpit and 3D models, they do NOT do anything with the flight model. That is entirely in house right there.
-SW
ooops! I guess that was a pretty big piece to that puzzle and I didn't see it :D Ok but it still doesn't do anything about the FM changing issues. I'll wait for the last FB patch to come out before I fly it again. I HATE having to re-learn my favorite ride with each patch.
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I don't mind relearning, so long as they are getting closer to accuracy... They were damn close with the 1.1b patch, then it got all sorts of screwed up with 1.11. Stuff like that happens when you get a whole bunch of people together testing something (the 1.1b patch - everyone tested it) that want to see their favorite plane perform so well because they are convinced when they are behind the stick they should be unbeatable.
To be honest, the 109s perform where they should - IN stick forces, roll rates, and responses in the controls. But that auto engine management went to sh** with 1.11 when it was perfect in 1.1b. I suspect if they put the auto engine mgmt of 1.1b into the rest of the FM data for the 109s in 1.11, the 109s would be back to their BnZ selves again. As it is now, unless you use manual management, you don't get full engine performance.
Then theres the P39, needs to be toned down in several areas. Supposedly will be, once it is - I'll be back to happily using it online.
The 190s are way to damage resistant though, I'm not sure how that happened while they left the P47 to get ripped apart easily.
Then the La5 (all variants) and La7s fall apart a little too easily when they begin to compress. Usually this will happen in level flight. Although I don't care much for the La7 since I don't play servers past 1943, I'd still like it fixed.
It will be interesting to see what 1.2 does, I'm hoping it will be like the last Il2 patch which pretty much fixed everything with maybe 2 or 3 planes (out of 40+) still a little off.
The disappointing thing about that patch though, is that it'll be HUGE. 3 maps or something like that in addition to several new objects and 5 new planes (P51, Ki84, A6M5(b I think), B17 and C47). Quite a task for the 56K to tackle.
-SW
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Hmm, oh I get it,
Btw, this can construed as an "ah who gives a ****" post,
I've always liked AH, probably always will, but I'm still waiting for the "community" to die so I can enjoy the game without the crapskim of elitism.
:cool:
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Originally posted by pzvg
Hmm, oh I get it,
Btw, this can construed as an "ah who gives a ****" post,
I've always liked AH, probably always will, but I'm still waiting for the "community" to die so I can enjoy the game without the crapskim of elitism.
:cool:
PZ!
As I've mentioned in the past, you'll never find that with any online sim as long as the population is over 1 within the arena, but good luck on your crusade. :)
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Swulfe...
Yeah I'll prolly start playing again after 1.2. I'm going to let them fix all the FM issues before I start flying it again. I still don't think I'll buy the next offering, but you never can tell. Afterall I am a sucker for eye candy ;)
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Fms in all games change. Ah fm changes, wbs changes, wwiiol changes.
As SW suggested the planes in FB fly the same. The difference comes with tweaks to the CEM. As it is tweaked on one end it affects the other.
There’s been 3 FB updates, ah is going on it 3rd "fm" with ah2 otw.
With FB the problem is getting the CEM and the power settings across the board "historically" correct. AH wbs wwiiol don’t worry much about that. In these games it’s a full throttle sprint through the dogfight. WWIIOL eng heats up but still it’s not as "complex" as the CEM in fb.
Some planes benefit, some planes miss out. If it’s a game killer then don’t play. But the implication that every time you take off in FB the entire flight model has changed isn’t accurate at all.
Also keep in mind that FB is a boxed game with a multi-player component. Oleg has stated that through their market research only like 10% of those who bought fb/IL2 fly online.
Online games like ah and wbs offers faster action and are forced to deal with less eye candy for playability issues. Also the online games rely on current subscriptions to keep them in business so changes won’t come as radically or frequently (even if there is a need). Online developers are forced to deal with many issues and in turn you see for the most part they have very limited plane sets and very similiar gameplay.
I don’t think I will buy the next pay add on to fb, because I don’t care enough about the luft '46 crap. Fb is a different type of fun compared to the quake like shoot umm up that is typical of main arena play. At least for me but I rarely fly on DF servers.
You will notice 80% of box games are all about skins and websites. Most of the players you see on the various forums you will never see in a game.
Take it or leave it.
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these are all games... why get so worked up?
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Look I got IL2 the day it came out, same with FB. Go back and load IL2 and play it. Then load the first patch. The FM's changed. Then load the 2nd, the FM's changed again. Then load FB, new fm. Ok they added CEM that's nice I learned how to work the engine and liked it. Then the 1st patch, BLAM new FM's and new method of CEM.
AH's FM got changed what 1.09 or something like that about 3 years ago. They'll change for AH2, but because they are adding lift points and what not. AH's FM does not change with each and every patch like it does with IL2. And the FM has changed with each and every patch, at least the 109/190 FM's. That being said I think they've tended to change for the better, but that's not my point. My point is that I refuse to relearn the envelope with each patch and that Oleg's FM isn't near as good as his fanbois say it is. Torque isn't even modelled, that right there almost killed the game completly for me when I discovered that. There is a check mark for torque in the setup but I can't see any difference with it on or off. I haven't even begun to talk about the russian plane slant in the game. That wasn't so bad the last time I played 1.1b.
Like I said I'll sit out until they get this thing patched and won't patch it again. Then I'll start playing again. I can't argue which fm is better between WB/AH/IL2/WW2OL I'm don't know aerodynamics. I can argue that WB/AH/WW2OL have more consistant FM's that don't change with every patch. That's all I'm sayin :) Play IL2 all ya like if you think it's fun. Right now it's not fun to me.....
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Honky is funny when he thinks people will feel screwed if their national planes are not included in the game..
What difference does it make? I have played WB and AH for years and the planes my country used are the least favourites. Even though I'm european, I mostly flew P47-d30 scoring 20:1 kills/deaths ratio on MA. I didn't feel cheated at all even though the domestically best planes weren't available, I had fun.