Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: crabofix on October 20, 2003, 03:38:25 PM
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US owes 370 billion dollars for the next budget.
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Pffft! Pocket change.:D
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Originally posted by crabofix
US owes 370 billion dollars for the next budget.
Dude, you're obsessed.
Really.
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WTFG Congress!
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Originally posted by Kieran
Dude, you're obsessed.
Really.
Yep, and you´re posessed.
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Seriously, I was checking up what My little country Owe, in a total.
It was about 160 billion dollars, thats even more scary concidering the 9 millions that live here.
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(http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/inflation.gif)
That's in 1990 dollars across the board.
As you can see, except for a rise at the end of World War II, the Debt remained remarkably constant for nearly forty years when inflationary forces are taken into account. From 1983 on however, the Debt has just been rocketing upwards.
Notice on both graphs above that the Debt is continuing to grow from year to year which means that the United States is still spending more than its taking in.
So your point is we're a debtor nation that continues to spend?
Did you just notice this?
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the sad part is that the debt we picked up durring the reagan/bush 80's was so much that the surpluses from the clinton years didn't even offset the interest. (as the graph shows the debt increasing even though we had budget surplusses for most of the clinton years)
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Originally posted by capt. apathy
the sad part is that the debt we picked up durring the reagan/bush 80's was so much that the surpluses from the clinton years didn't even offset the interest. (as the graph shows the debt increasing even though we had budget surplusses for most of the clinton years)
Just wondering here. Everybody always talks about the debt in terms of Presidents. ie... Reagan/Bush/ Clinton...... Why doesn't anybody ever talk about congress? Did anybody find it just the least bit currious that the first year we had a Republican controlled congress (House and Senate) in like 30+ years was the first ballanced budget we had in those 30+ years? Irregaurdless of who was in the white house.
WTF are we supposed to do when the guys that are supposed to be the fiscaly responsible party and running up the debt too? Oh yeah, blame Bush....
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Udie has a point, Congress is responsible for majority of the budget. Sure, a *few* things they don't control - but they control government spending. Last year's budget was late for approval, this meant that a lot of students couldn't be hired on or had to be let go from the federal government in the Washington, DC area.
Each agency or commission in the government has an appointed budget that it either uses all of, or doesn't use all of. It uses all of it, it's budget grows larger for the following year. It doesn't use all of it, the budget gets smaller.
Should see what happens when it comes time to report the budget useage, suddenly expensive brand new things that aren't neccesarily needed start showing up.
Can't really blame it on any single president, since it really all falls back on the entire federal government.
-SW
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the president ultimatly signs the laws or not.
as far as who can be blamed for what the cost of our present gulf war should land squarely on bush's shoulders.
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Originally posted by capt. apathy
the president ultimatly signs the laws or not.
Yup which is why they should get some of the credit/blame
as far as who can be blamed for what the cost of our present gulf war should land squarely on bush's shoulders.
hehehe 80 billion? 160 Billion, I've honestly forgot how much he's asked for the war in Iraq. The whole debt is something like 370 billion. Where's most of the debt coming from?
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tax cuts for the rich?
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Originally posted by capt. apathy
tax cuts for the rich?
:rofl
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The budget is not a law.
-SW
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Originally posted by crabofix
Yep, and you´re posessed.
No, what I mean is, if I took the time to learn Swedish I'd probably find better things to do than to spam a flightsim BBS about the evils of Swedish leadership and political doctrine.
But that's me.
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If you look at Debt/GDP, the United States debt burden represents about 31-32% of its total yearly GDP. For Sweden, that percentage exceeds 50%, almost twice the average for the whole European Union.
Sweden's Deficit/GDP appears better than America's however. From what I could find, deficit spending was only 1.5% of total GDP in Sweden in 2001 while it currently stands around 3 to 3.5% in the United States.
Crabofix, I wasn't aware that Sweden carries such an enormous debt relative to its GDP. Is that a major issue of concern in your country?
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by crabofix
US owes 370 billion dollars for the next budget.
Don't worry - everything is going to be okay.
We're going to get Iran, Syria, and North Korea to 'buy out debt' from other Nations. Then we'll pay them back with interest in the form of scrap metal converted into bomb casings and back to scrap metal. American ingenuity at its finest.
FunkedUp for President!
Mike/wulfie
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Crabofix, I wasn't aware that Sweden carries such an enormous debt relative to its GDP. Is that a major issue of concern in your country?
-- Todd/Leviathn
Not anymore: as it is actully decreases and because the goverment has found out it cant spend more then it has.
Then the falling dollar has given us 25% of the original debt.
The debts where mainly counstructed in the begining of the 80´s.
Originally posted by Kieran
No, what I mean is, if I took the time to learn Swedish I'd probably find better things to do than to spam a flightsim BBS about the evils of Swedish leadership and political doctrine.
But I will assure you, chasing blondes up and down the streets gets pretty boring after a while.
Now, you are saying that I spam this board with stuff that does´nt belong here? I thought it was Ok to post mainly anything here in the O´club, as long as you didnt make personal attacks to anyone posting.
To make life a little less complicated for you, I will now tell you about the "ignore" option.
If You don´t like my posts, please use this option, it might help you in your daily concerns. It might also help you to forget the fact that I do belong to this community, as a paying member since 1999: You are not able to change that.
Edit
By the way, if 384 posts in 4 years, is spaming, what is then 3311 posts in 3 years?
Edit
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im lovin it. castles made of republican sand.
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Who was Prez when the debt first passed the $40 trillion line (in constant 1990 dollars) and what did he make the castles out of then?
I'm lovin' these posts. They show such a deep understanding of the budget process. :lol
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Now, you are saying that I spam this board with stuff that does´nt belong here? I thought it was Ok to post mainly anything here in the O´club, as long as you didnt make personal attacks to anyone posting.
What I am saying is the sum total of your posts seem to remind me of a little girl running up to her big sister and making faces. If you don't like me sharing that opinion on an open forum, you may feel free to put me on ignore. ;)
You're obsessed with the US, that's for darn sure.
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he was stuck with a defficit budget and huge amounts of interest right from the start but you can look at '92 and see the debt begin to level off, growing by a smaller and smaller amount every year.
you can hardly blame him for it hitting the 4t mark when faced with the interest quickly piling up from the spend-thrift 80's. but even faced with the run-away debt left to him by goerge sr he managed to start riegning it in almost imediatly.
of course once jr was in he managed to get that debt growing in a stellar fashoin, even out did his old man. hell he even did better than reagen, it took reagan a couple years to turn around the shrinking defficate left to him by Carter.
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You miss the point, my dear Captain.
I did not "blame" anyone. In fact, my intent was just the opposite.
The idea that you can blame... or praise... any ONE man, even the President, for the state of the US National Debt is rather... ill-informed.
To do so, IMO, shows a lack of understanding of how the US Government decides how much to spend and what to spend it upon.
But the extremely shallow "It's all _____________'s fault!!!!" is kinda entertaining from those that pretend to be the only one's that see the conspiracy/danger/disater/end of days stuff.
Personally, I hold Col. Mustard responsible. Have you seen the price of candlesticks these days? And the rent on the Library! No wonder the debt's so high!
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crabofix: US owes 370 billion dollars for the next budget.
You shut up and keep your government buying those US treasury bonds. :)
crabofix: It was about 160 billion dollars, thats even more scary concidering the 9 millions that live here.
Then why do you keep over 16 billion of US debt and buying more? It's not like we are paying you high interest or have trade surplus which will cause our currency to appreciate...
crabofix: Then the falling dollar has given us 25% of the original debt.
Oh, I see - you are catching on. Your country got suckered into going into debt to buy dollars way ago when a dollar had much more value.
Then the value of your dollar holdings sunk while the debts remained, so that now we can taunt you after cheating you? Suckers.... :)
Dead Man Flying: If you look at Debt/GDP, the United States debt burden represents about 31-32% of its total yearly GDP.
Man, you got cheated by yout math teacher. We have over 7 trillion of the official debt - which is about 65% of the GDP of about 11 trillion.
But as comptroller general recently explained, the official debt does not include the US bonds owned by special trusts - SSI and medicare, so that adds anotehr what, 5-6 trillion? That makes our debt - in legal notes issued by US government to be 13 trillion, which is 120% of GDP.
But what we owe in SSI/Medicare is not just the notes. The value of obligatuions that we legally have to pay must be estimated according to the actuatial tables and capital discounts. To make long story short, in constitutes conservatively 45 trillion dollars worth of current obligations. How is it? 50+ trillions against 11 trillion GDP (which is a fake number, btw, grossly overstated).
Udie: Why doesn't anybody ever talk about congress?
Even ancient greeks knew this simple truth. The democratic politicians are only successfull in their careers if they concentrate on short term benefits.
Did anybody find it just the least bit currious that the first year we had a Republican controlled congress (House and Senate) in like 30+ years was the first ballanced budget we had in those 30+ years?
False wealth effect of a credit-induced stock market bubble that confiscated a lot of capital under guise of income?
From 1983 on however, the Debt has just been rocketing upwards.
Shortly after we created the "Great Society" on top of the "New Deal". Hmm, coincidence?
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Originally posted by Kieran
What I am saying is the sum total of your posts seem to remind me of a little girl running up to her big sister and making faces. If you don't like me sharing that opinion on an open forum, you may feel free to put me on ignore. ;)
You're obsessed with the US, that's for darn sure.
I think you´re a little bit lost, I dont see how this connects with the US budget?
So what if I am "obsessed" with the US? I might have good reasons to be interested in what is going on in your country.
But whatever reason I might have, is non of your concern :p
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crabofix: But whatever reason I might have, is non of your concern :p
You have to understand Kieran.
There are two types of cheaters. The first borrows your money with no intention of repaying, screws you up and treats you with (fake) love and affection, as long as he does not have to repay.
The other type takes your money and then turns hostle and abusive and even claims he did you a favor.
Kieran is just the latter type. It's a trait of character - not really a concious choice in most cases. Not sure if it's inherited or a parental influence in raising an ungratefull brat...
miko
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Originally posted by miko2d
crabofix: US owes 370 billion dollars for the next budget.
You shut up and keep your government buying those US treasury bonds. :)
crabofix: It was about 160 billion dollars, thats even more scary concidering the 9 millions that live here.
Then why do you keep over 16 billion of US debt and buying more? It's not like we are paying you high interest or have trade surplus which will cause our currency to appreciate...
crabofix: Then the falling dollar has given us 25% of the original debt.
Oh, I see - you are catching on. Your country got suckered into going into debt to buy dollars way ago when a dollar had much more value.
Then the value of your dollar holdings sunk while the debts remained, so that now we can taunt you after cheating you? Suckers.... :)
well, we havent taken any loans for a couple of years and are actully able to pay back some. Still, it is a horried amount of money that we owe.
In the beginning of the 90`s dollar was 1/5.50 sek, last year, it hit 1/10.50, now it has gone down to 1/7.50 and it is falling every day.
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In sweden 1% owns 90% of all money, but they only pay 10% off the taxes, the rest, 99% pays 90% of the taxes.
The tax here is about 55% for a common man.
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In sweden 1% owns 90% of all money, but they only pay 10% off the taxes, the rest, 99% pays 90% of the taxes.
The tax here is about 55% for a common man.
That is a meaningless statistics.
The taxes are paid off income.
The money owned is wealth.
Your top 1% earns about 5% of income - just 5 times the average which is no big deal. A qualified specialist is certainly 5 or more times more productive than an average (IQ 100) worker.
Those 1% are taxed much more heavily on their income than other 99%.
Also, out of 90% they own, only a tiny frection are consumer goods. The rest are capital - factories, farms, companies, etc. You cannot enjoy a factory, wear it or drink it. The only thing a factory is good for is producing goods that satisfy the customer's demands.
The customers determine what is being bought, and thus what is being sold and thus what is produced. Factories are working for the benefit of the consumers and the "rich" owners are just in charge of managing them.
The actual consumable goods the rich own - houses, cars, clothes, food, are not that much better than "average people" posessions while being much more expensive in monetary terms. So even that disparity of wealth effect is hudely overblown.
miko
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Originally posted by capt. apathy
the sad part is that the debt we picked up durring the reagan/bush 80's...
Sad???
Single handedly responsible for ending the cold war. Looks like money well spent to me.
Of course, hind sight being 20/20 we may have been better off it were still going on.
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I have posted on this many times but I will do it again
The deficit is 3.5% of GDP which is smaller then the average for the last 50 years of 4.3%. It averaged 5-6% through the 80's and was 38% after WWII. We are no where near records and we are just were we would expect to be considering the march 2000-nov 2002 recession/war.
FYI the US spent 750 billion on education last year 10,540 per student k-colleage. The world average is 5,000. Yet the US student ranks 50% in world standings. You want to balance the budget, start right there.
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Originally posted by miko2d
Man, you got cheated by yout math teacher. We have over 7 trillion of the official debt - which is about 65% of the GDP of about 11 trillion.
Wow, thanks for explaining how to do percentages, miko. Next maybe you can teach me how to multiply big numbers.
The number was based upon debt estimates around $4.5 trillion and corroborated by numerous websites comparing debt burdens across North America and Europe. Your points about uncounted debt are well taken, but your obnoxious attitude needs some work.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Kieran is just the latter type. It's a trait of character - not really a concious choice in most cases. Not sure if it's inherited or a parental influence in raising an ungratefull brat...
miko
Edumacate me, Miko. I thought I was responding to Crab's consistant "Hahaha! Your economy is going in the toilet!" theme. I don't recall suggesting we'd done his country any favors. Perhaps you can show me where I did? I think it is a fair assessment of his posts to infer he is quite pleased when the US economy looks bleak, and it is also fair to say he is gloating about it. Hey, but you're right, I'm the one with the problem.
Heck, truth of the matter is I can go whole years without once thinking of Sweden, insignificant as it is on the world stage. (I threw that insult in there so you'd know what it looked like when I was half-trying).
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Dead Man Flying: The number was based upon debt estimates around $4.5 trillion and corroborated by... Your points about uncounted debt are well taken, but your obnoxious attitude needs some work.
Since you are being civil, I am sorry about my attitude.
On September 17, 2003 the head of GAO Comptroller General David Walker had a speach at the national press club in Wash. DC.
Truth And Transparency (http://www.respondanet.com/english/publications/Gaowalker.pdf)
According to my math, that left us with an approximate $7 trillion accumulated deficit, or a little over $24,000 for every man, woman and child in the United States.
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Specifically, there are a number of very significant items that are not currently included as liabilities in the federal government’s financial statements; for example, several trillion dollars in non-marketable government securities in so-called “Trust Funds.” In the case of the Social Security and Medicare Trust Funds, the federal government took in taxpayer money, spent it on other items and replaced it with an IOU. Given this fact, why aren’t the amounts attributed to such activities shown as a “liability” of the U.S. Government? At the present time, they are not!
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The current U.S government liability figures also do not adequately consider veterans’ health care benefit costs provided through the Department of Veteran’s Affairs nor do they include the difference between future promised and funded benefits in connection with the Social Security and Medicare programs. These additional amounts total tens of trillions of dollars in discounted present value terms. Stated differently, they are likely to exceed $100,000 in additional burden for every man, woman and child in America today...
I will appologise for my attitude again if you read all 7 pages of the report. He is saying pretty much what I have been saying - that our country is headed towards disaster in a near future (10-15 years) even without unexpected events like a war, terrorism or ecological/natural disaster.
He does not know or would not admit the fundamental cause for what is happening - blaming fiscal, rather than monetary policies for the problem. But he deals the facts straight for a change.
Read all 7 pages, you will get a good scare.
miko
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WHAT?! No apology to me?! hehe...
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Edumacate me, Miko. I thought I was responding to Crab's consistant "Hahaha! Your economy is going in the toilet!" theme.
Yes, you said stuff like "You're obsessed with the US, that's for darn sure.". So what if he is concerned with US because his tiny country loaned us 16 billion dollars - which were once worth much more than they are today. Also because we spout idiocies about democracy, free market, prosperity, peacefullness and virtues of exports while doing exactly opposite in all those respects.
We are a big country. Once we discredit all those concepts, the human civilisation will take quite a while if ever to warm up to them again.
16 billion is about $2000 for every soul in Sweden - after all the money is taken from and repaid to people. That would be like a $533 billion for a country of our size. Since the debt was accumulated over time and dollar was more valuable, it may well be a trillion dollar's or more worth in today's money.
I bet if US was owed a trillion by Sweden, and Sewden was still going down the financial hole, you would believe yourself entitled to some opinion on how lousy workers and poor managers those people were...
assessment of his posts to infer he is quite pleased when the US economy looks bleak,
We do tend to boast how well we live and thus how right we are, forgetting that over a quarter of our consumption is supplied by foreigners and most of our growth is financed by them. And that much of our accumulated wealth was paid for by foreignerd on who's obligations we've defaulted.
When one steals and then uses aquired wealth as a proof of inherent virtue and correct action, realistically thinking people are justified to at least enjoy the correctness of their previous predictions.
Heck, truth of the matter is I can go whole years without once thinking of Sweden, insignificant as it is on the world stage.
Right, that's what I said. Your government already took their money, so now they can just bug off...
miko
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Gee whiz, all you had to say was "Yes, he is happy about the US doing poorly and is gloating about it, and I want you to shut up and listen to it without responding."
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Kieran: Gee whiz, all you had to say was "Yes, he is happy about the US doing poorly and is gloating about it, and I want you to shut up and listen to it without responding."
If one can be happy for a country like Soviet Union going towards the financial ruin for implementing socialist economic and imperialist foreign policies, why not be happy for US suffering for doing the same?
I've seen you do a few disparaging remarks about people who live in poverty die to bad policies of their rulers. Everybody does here - "goat herds", "pesants", "dirty savages", etc. There is a point here - a country that behaves contrary to economic reason suffers.
The only difference between those goatherds and US is that scandinavians, europeans and asians do not loan them money by a trillion or invest in their economies.
You are just hyppocrictical about it.
miko
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To make things a little bit clear, it´s not only Sweden that has money in the US. nuff said
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crabofix: To make things a little bit clear, it´s not only Sweden that has money in the US. nuff said
As long as you do not expect any of it back, you can flame us all you want, whatever anyone objects.
Care to buy few hundred billion more of US treasuries? We have a couple more invasions and few more welfare schemes in mind...
miko
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So let me get this straight...
Crab is a swede and Miko is a lawyer....
Now I understand...
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muckmaw: ... and Miko is a lawyer....
:eek: Whatever made you think I was a ... lawyer?
miko
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Cant tuch it , cause As soon I do, tax,tax,tax,tax,tax....Now, where did it go?
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Originally posted by miko2d
muckmaw: ... and Miko is a lawyer....
:eek: Whatever made you think I was a ... lawyer?
miko
It might just be the way you annoy me....;)
Just kidding..I don't know where I got that impression...
*shrugs*
I need to update my score cards
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Miko, you're going to have to search long and hard to back that claim up. I've stated "I don't want my system to be like so-and-so's", or "I don't have any use for laws like this country's", but you've not seen me post any desire for a country to suffer hard times.
Go ahead and search, I'll apologize if you can find a single comment to that effect.
Anyway, that is aside from the point Crab is fixated on the US, and is gleeful about any downturn in the US economy, AND is posting that feeling on a public BBS in the US. He shouldn't behave all that surprised someone comments negatively on it.
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Oh, so you got hurt by the way I said it?
Or just because I said it? Well I dont blame you, really. I would also hate to be caught with the pants down. :) :confused: :eek: :o :rolleyes: :lol :rofl
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Kieran: Miko, you're going to have to search long and hard to back that claim up. ... but you've not seen me post any desire for a country to suffer hard times.
...Go ahead and search, I'll apologize if you can find a single comment to that effect.
If you say so, I am glad to be wrong about that and would rather appologize myself than attempt such a search.
US, and is gleeful about any downturn in the US economy, AND is posting that feeling on a public BBS in the US.
At least he does not live here. I am disgusted with the policies of the socialists that are ruining this country under the guise of two-party system and express quite a glee myself when my predictions of the dismal crash of their schemes happen just like real economic theory predicts.
At the same time I feel quite bad about the country that stands to suffer the consequenses of those policies.
That was true with my old country and is true about this one.
There is a distinction though - in my mind the damage is done when the country gets afflicted with socialists, not when their schemes blow up. Those are just symptoms which can hopefully be noticed in time to start fighting the original infestation.
I would much rather see a major crash, inflation and depression now than later - because the deeper we go, the harder the crash and the more dubious the recovery.
That does not mean I wish bad for this country, just the opposite.
As for crabofix, I am assuming he is thinking along thes ame lines but being an outsider has harder time distinguishing between american government and america as a country.
miko
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I'd agree with you economically, and have absolutely no argument with you at all. I'm not even saying Crab shouldn't have an interest. Just noticing a trend in his posts, and commented on it.
I know english is not Crab's first language, so if he cannot understand where I am coming from I can understand.