Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Krusher on October 20, 2003, 04:58:16 PM
-
So how do you Euros feel about the far-right Swiss People's Party doing so well in the elections? I read that they pretty much ran on a anti-foreigner/Anti-immigration platform. From what I have been reading many Anti-immigration groups are gaining strength in Europe.
-
You mean... they are bigoted? Say it ain't so!
You mean... having a pluralistic society is too complicated, therefore it is necessary to begin weeding out undesireables?
You mean... America's culture problems aren't uniquely American?
Say it ain't so, Joe. Say it ain't so.
-
In many European countries the far-rights are getting more and more voices (not in Germany btw).
Let's take a closer look at the German far-rights:
Many people are dissatisfied with their government (regarding economics). They are afraid of loosing their jobs or getting poorer and so on. They see the cause p.e. for unemployment in the moving in of asylum seekers. That is as a matter of course bullshiiit cause asylum seekers are not allowed to work.
But u can see that most people dont understand the real cause, they are dumb. They take the easy argument (as always) and blame the foreigners. BUT! Without our foreigner our economy would be worser than with them. Germany needs foreigners.
Now take a look at the rich Swiss that vote for these pseudo nazis. The average poor unemployed Swiss is 10000 times richer than a worker from Senegal. The difference between them is that one was lucky to get born in Switzerland.
So should the rich countries allow everyone to come in? No. Its not practicable - sadly. But we have a responsibility for those countries we have exploited.
Switzerland already has really strong asylum laws and they are still afraid ... thats IMHO sick and shows that this land is quixotic.
-
Funny thing is, I agree with the Swiss, and immigration should be tightened up for all countries.
-
Duedel: The difference between them is that one was lucky to get born in Switzerland.
With all the nonsense packed in this small (so far) thread, this statement easily takes the crown.
People are not animals that procreate indiscriminately. People have the unique faculty of reason which they use to plan and forecast and change their circumastances and create conditions for their descendants. At least some of them.
Civilised people do not differ from barbarians or animals by the amount of wealth they have or technology or even knowlege. Civilised people differ from animals, underclass scum, and barbarians by the extent of their time horizons - the extent to which they plan their future.
A swiss is not lucky to be born in good conditions. For over half a millenia swiss people maintained and protected (from invaders as well as from temptation of conquest) free society based on democratic principles and developed their economy in order to have limited number of children they could raise properly and in order to insure those children live as they saw proper for human beings. No luck here.
I know that there is no luck in my children being born intelligent, mentally balanced and looking forward to years of carefull instruction in all subjects of knowlege. It was generations of carefull mate selection, preservation/development of culture and laborous upbringing that persisted through several total economic ruinations, regime changes, emigrations, wars, etc...
I don't know about you, Duedel - maybe you really do not see a future beyong this night's drink and sports game and your children are born as a result of an accident. Maybe you even do not know your ancestors and have no particular cause to respect them. Bad for you.
Civilised people invest into the future by reducing current consumption - sacrificing leisure time, comfort and safety for labor, learning, austerity and risk, just so that their children and grandchildren would not need luck to live like human beings should.
miko
-
1515 Marignan !
Any French having never heard about this it definitively not French :p
-
well 20% of Swiss population are not nativ Swiss
they have 3 official languages there
i can travell to Swiss w/o visa
Swiss is most multi national country around the world (my guess)
So if some US boy start to whinne about Swiss, you should check reality
the only one funny thing about swiss is that many of them are over selfconfidence (they are quite cool all the time and very serious :D) [just hope that messy isnt around :D ]
Try these numbers compare to america and let me know...
ps.: dont forget that we need to wait for US Visa cca 2 months and then they will just tell .. ohh boy you are young you could work there.. we are scare of people whitch can work .. so fak off
:D
(and ofcourse they will keep your 50 USD imao)
so we can consider swiss to be free country compare to US (and dont ask about average income of swiss :cool: )
-
Originally posted by Kieran
Funny thing is, I agree with the Swiss, and immigration should be tightened up for all countries.
why do you think ?
-
In modern welfare states people are obligated/coerced to pay for their coutryman. Thus admitting a foreigner that through no fault of you is going to be a burden means taking upon oneself an extra obligation - or more likely having that obligation put on you by pro-immigration politicians.
Why would anyone want to ne subject to unvoluntary obligations? After all, of one wanted to spend money on africans of mexicans, one could do so with ease.
Of course in a free state the issue of immigration would never arise.
miko
-
@miko
Everyone is born in the circumstances he's born (sounds logical). So everyone has to live with these circumstances (and maybe enhance them). Some can immegrate to alter these circumstances some not.
There are many born into the badest environment u can imagine.
Are they guilty to be born in these circumstances? No. Was that their decision? Surely not. Is it fair? No. Do they have the chance to change the society? Maybe some strong minded but most not.
So IMHO everyone who lives in a rich country should:
- be aware that this is a big privilege
- be thankfull that he had THE LUCK to got born there
- think about the others that didnt have the luck and maybe help
them to better their situation
So back to the word LUCK. Maybe i should have used another word i.e. Random but its definitly not determination.
-
Originally posted by threedays
well 20% of Swiss population are not nativ Swiss
... where many of them are foreign mercantilists or other rich people that are "usefull" foreigners and that are attracted by the low taxes.
-
LOL
are you sure about low Taxes ?
i do not know exact numbers but last time my friend was about to pay tax, he was complaining that its a lot of money
Is there any Swiss dweeb around.... may be some tree lover ? :D
i realy dont think that taxes are low in swiss
i will bring this number later
any if i have mouney i would may be move there as well
its quite and clean country with nice nature and decent people
so why shoulnt rich merchant move there
Does anyone have clue what is corruption in Swiss and other countries like Fr,De,Uk,Us ?
swiss is one of most beautiful country i ever saw (except our village :D )
-
Duedel: @miko
Everyone is born in the circumstances he's born (sounds logical).
My children where quite conciously created after a lot of planning in an environment I found lacking and greatly modified by the time I found suitable for their birth.
I see no luck here and no obligation on myself or on my children deriving from my concious actions to improve our station in life.
Are they guilty to be born in these circumstances? No. Was that their decision? Surely not.
But their parents may be - if they had facilities of reason. You may be surprised, but most people who suffer are not victims of a disaster or war but the natural way of life of their society. And most traditional societies are actively opposed to the ways that are conductive to accumulation of wealth.
If you deny that their parents were capable of reason, then your reduce them to the level of animals and completely different standards apply to the treatment of animals. Dangerous ground here.
If they are not capable of concious procreation, then you are not "helping" them but breeding them, just like you breed more animals by giving them more food. I strongly oppose any breeding experiments on other humans - whether directed to increasing or decreasing their numbers. Those things are best left to nature (nature's God).
So IMHO everyone who lives in a rich country should:
- be aware that this is a big privilege
Rather the efforts of their ancestors.
- be thankfull that he had THE LUCK to got born there
That the ancestor chose to give them life in the conditions that were suitable - and not just economic ones.
think about the others that didn't have the luck and maybe help them to better their situation
I agree with that - but again with a qualification.
People should help other people - but it should be done voluntarily, not coerced on them by the government or majority.
The best help the deprived people can get is if the rich countries dismantle their welfare states and the tariff/labor/capital/immigration restrictions necessary for their existance. If a senegalese comes into my country because someone is ready to hire him - without any obligations on my part, so that his employer can supply us all with cheaper products, so that my nominal salary can be cut while still having my real wage raising, so my employer can profitably hire more people and expand production, etc. etc... Why would I object? We would all prosper greatly.
So back to the word LUCK. Maybe i should have used another word i.e. Random but its definitly not determination.
What's random here? Parents select suitable genes for my children, parents mold and fill their minds (building on the foundation laid by their ancestors) and you say they are just the result of a random occurence once they grow up and are entitled to vote and subject to taxation?
miko
-
People are not animals that procreate indiscriminately.
What planet do you live on?
-
Why do I think immigration should be tightened in most countries? Where do I start?
Take social burden. If a society is relatively successful, it becomes attractive to the downtrodden of another country. That's cool, but if too many folks "run for the border", the society can become overburdened. Look at what is happening on our southern border. To deny the impact rampant illegal immigration is having on our southwestern states is foolish.
Look at the UK, and its growing crime, which in large part can be attributed to an influx of immigrants. Not all Brits appear to be happy about that.
I could go on, but you get the point.
-
Kieran: What planet do you live on?
It's hard to guess the meaning of your question.
Humans do have facility and knowlege to control their procpreation and upbringing of their children. Even the most promitive cultures know how pregnacies occur and what is involved in upbringing.
So unlike animals, people do make choices. All I am saying is that they are their children should be responcible for the choices made, not the people living in another country who's parents made different choices.
If people are behaving like animals and continue doing so, why should anyone be forced to treat them like people to whom he owes something?
I bet if the senegalese who are coming to Switzerland, learned the language, abided to the prevalent customs and did not land on public assistance or in jail, swiss could not care less.
All that uproar about mexicans in US - it's all BS. US had and still have a huge invasion of chinese - non-englisgh speaking, not educated not posessing valuable technical skill chinese. They do not cause problems, work hard, abide by the laws and their children are all in colleges, speaking perfect English.
Nobody minds chinese here, or any other people who's culture includes hard work and who's genes carry intelligence and low aggression.
miko
-
Originally posted by Kieran
What planet do you live on?
he probably do not live in US
we probably do a lot of things whitch are hard to understand for these 'natural' people
-
Originally posted by miko2d
I know that there is no luck in my children being born intelligent, mentally balanced and looking forward to years of carefull instruction in all subjects of knowlege. It was generations of carefull mate selection, preservation/development of culture and laborous upbringing that persisted through several total economic ruinations, regime changes, emigrations, wars, etc...
Planning a "master race" there Miko?
-
threedays: he probably do not live in US
Kieran is just so pissed of by the conversation in another forum that he does not even realise I am on his side in this discussion.
But who the heck are you and where are you from? You writing certainly gives no clue, except that you must be from a non-english speaking country.
What do you mean by "we" and "they" and what "things" are your referring to.
so we can consider swiss to be free country compare to US
You think that US would be more free if I was automatically coerced into working for any foreigner who cares to show up in our visa office?
Some freedom, you dufus...
Or maybe you use the word "free" as in "no cost", like any foreigner should be entitled to help himself to thes swiss' wealth and fruits of labor of swiss taxpayers?
No wonder swiss object. Unlike americans, they cannot even print money...
Freedom means social contract. Outsiders are not covered by any such contract unless the insiders are willing to extend it - with all obligations involved.
miko
-
AKIron: Planning a "master race" there Miko?
:)
Just having exercised my natural and parentally-nurtured intelligence and cultural norms also instilled in me by my parents to find a suitable partner in life and mother for my children and then raising them properly.
What, is it different with you? You must have been concious and sober when selecting a wife and thinking something beyong "great boobs", right? How about the children's upbringing, you must be doing something about it? So you are as guilty in "planning a master race" as I am, only being hyppocritical.
No matter. I hope you've made good choices - we may end up co-ancestors to some future descendants.
miko
-
While intelligence is a desirable trait there are others I admire more highly: kindness, generosity, courage, to name but a few. I believe these traits to be taught rather than bred and it is these traits I find most attractive about a person (maybe 'cause I'm so lacking). I think it's also more likely that these attributes will be passed on to offspring than intelligence.
-
AKIron: others I admire more highly: kindness, generosity, courage, to name but a few.
I couldn't agree more. Intelligence does come in handy though because wrong kind of "help" can be very harmfull.
I believe these traits to be taught rather than bred
Than you may be surprised to learn that many character traits underlying those qualities are very inheritable.
If a person is high on a phychoticism scale it would be very hard to instill consideration towards others into him, especially if he has low intelligence.
Behavioural geneticsists and dog breeders know that qualities like agreableness (using an archaic term here), level of agression or stability are bred true and quite separately from intelligence.
miko
-
A good example just came to my mind. African economies are devastated by AIDS epidemic.
Kind but stupid pressure groups demand that western governments spend billions of dollars so that the carriers of AID would delay symptoms, prolong live and sustain vigor and could continue to infect others for years longer...
How about free advice that would save them all and - unlike some other advice - would even work for individual families even if the rest of the country did not follow it.
Stop the heck screwing around outside marriage and take care of your children.
See? How many people in the affected countries do you think missed hearing that advice?
What proportion of their population actually abides by it?
Do you think a higher or lower proportion of swiss changed their sexual behaviour when AIDS appeared?
Does anyone think that such cultural preferences haave anything to do with the amount of wealth, rather than teh state of people's minds?
Should swiss subcidise the disastorous results of other people being unwilling or unable to make the right choices?
miko
-
heeh miko .. come on .. be faithfull and invest money to your family is not good for bussines...
look at contemporary adver. ....
and now tell me Miko ... who exactly should teach them ?
I did hear what you say now 8 years ago at the school when we spoke about aids, hiv .....
(indeed not in US)
look at the US Tv products ..... you simply can not say that coz, it doesnt fit to market
or am i wrong ?
-
Pissed at you, Miko? Huh? I think you might be a tad too self-important if you think you had that kind of effect on me.
You made an inane comment about people not being like animals where indiscriminate sex is involved. Totally absurd. Though I agree I don't feel any particular responsibility towards those unwanted pregnancies teens and others seem to magically incur, I can't attribute them to responsible, reasoned behavior, either.
I think you're a smart guy that occasionally says stupid stuff. I can hardly get pissed at you for that, it's not your fault. ;)
-
threedays: heeh miko .. come on .. be faithfull and invest money to your family is not good for bussines...
look at contemporary adver. ....
look at the US Tv products ..... you simply can not say that coz, it doesnt fit to market
Wait a minute, wait a minute! Are you saying that beacause some unscrupulous guy come with a questionable product that he would like you to buy, or a politician comes with some stupid idea that spending promotes growty, we should junk the wosdom of teh ancestors that served us greatly over many generations and oblige them?
and now tell me Miko ... who exactly should teach them ?
The only people with stake involved - parents.
or am i wrong ?
Wrong about what? We hear a lot of crap from TV and politicians. Fortunately we have intelligence, withdom and culture of ancestors and accumulated knowlege of geniuses of few millenia to help us see what's real and what's not.
Even those disadvantaged not to be boren in a good family can take advantage of the accumulated knowlege and culture.
Kieran: I think you're a smart guy that occasionally says stupid stuff.
:) Same back at ya...
You made an inane comment about people not being like animals where indiscriminate sex is involved. Totally absurd.
Of all things to disagree with me vehemently I least expect you to pick this subject. Either one or both of us are seriously confused in this discussion or something...
Would you care to state your position on the subjects, since the one-line statements do not make it clear to me what the heck you are talking about and what are your objections.
Of hundreds of people I know personally in this country and others that I classify as my level of civilisation (of whom many had to start a new life from zero, sometimes more than once) - almost everyone had children in mature age with partners, at a time and in number of their choosing. All of them are planning their lifes at least through their children college education, and most are planning their lives in a way to be around and help with grandchildren, etc.
Not a single one has a child uncared for or unwanted or who's conception was not a planned event or a pleasant surprise.
At the same time there are plenty of cultures/people who experienced a drop in child mortality provided by hygiene and clean water supply - in undeveloped countries and increase in leisure/comfort due to lavish welfare in western states.
Some undeveloped countries like asians, drastically reduced their birth rate and increased their wealth. Some developed countries or certain ethnicities in developed countries did not have a huge increase in extra-marital births, etc.
At teh same time in some coutries population exploded, well beyong the natural support rate and resources were diverted and wasted from economic development. Also in some states, estecially in US the extra-marital birth rate, divorce rate and single family rate exploded - disproportionately among some populations.
Wealth has nothing to do with it since poor people lived in much harsher conditions 100 years ago and did not experience those afflictions anywhere close to such extent.
The only explanation I can see, as well as many scientists, is ingerent differences in intelligence and culture.
Some people plan and act under control of reason, whether they are wealthy or poor. Other live in the spur of the current moment, wheather they are wealthy or poor.
Some act like people, othes like animals and while behavior can be switched, the divide is quite great and most people have no chance to cross it.
What do you say.
miko
-
thanks for respond miko
well noo we should not trash all wisdom we have from our grandparents
but i do not belive that generation whitch now rule will be able to start to do what you mentioned.
actualy agree with your point, the thing i do not belive is that contemporary leaders are able to change that
when i was asking who should teach them, my point was like this.
if Mr. Bill Clinton come here and start to teach us how its important to be faithfull, we will probably throw rocks on him.
Well teacher should not be hypocratic... and find someone who could stand up and say .. come one we have to change our sexual habbits it lead us to death...
actualy one german specialist on HIV already said that ...
but look on Berlin :D
there doesnt exist support from leading group for this
of course and then we some areas like ME .... where situation is absolutly oposite and we call then silly stupid .. and we laughing when we hear that girl want to be virgin untill she will get married
i hope its clear that basicaly i do agree, im only pointing on fact, that there is no will to bring old wisdom back on light, even when it worked for many cent.
and well from economical point of view its better to waist zillion of mickey mouse money on research that just say .. hold on we can solved by changing habbit
-
I actually agree with you on almost all points you tend to make.
I think humans have the capacity to make rational decisions, and that does set us apart from animals... however, we tend to be lazy, and allow animal instincts to guide us when they should not.
In the case of sexuality, it is obvious abstinence is the smartest and most foolproof method of birth and disease control. The truth is it is difficult to sell to a society that wants to do what feels good despite the repercussions. That society then expects me to shoulder responsibility for behavior I am against from the start (see, we do agree!).
But... it is not merely an intelligence issue per se. The society or culture in which a person is immersed does affect how one views any behavior. If your society tells you X behavior is good and natural, you'll be more inclined to do X behavior if the opportunity presents itself. Couple that with a strong instinct and a dose of immaturity and you have rampant sexuality.
So, yeah... we agree mostly.
-
threedays: but i do not belive that generation whitch now rule will be able to start to do what you mentioned.
You are thinking in collectivist terms. Just stop doing that. It's unnatural and only happens when people are indoctrinated by government/state/society.
We are individuals with independent minds. There is no such thing as collective mind or collective wisdom - only the mind or a man (and that of God, for religious). Do not expect or let strangers shape your mind and those of your children.
there doesnt exist support from leading group for this
What kind of suport do you really need? Buy good books, talk to children, find like-minded parents.
that there is no will to bring old wisdom back on light, even when it worked for many cent.
There is no such thing as a "general" will or collective will. Will is a property of an individual mind. All the knowlege and experience and wisdom of humanity is awailable in the book store. The only will required is yours and your spouse's.
Some things are under your presonal control, some are not. It was always like that. So what? If worse comes to worse, your family can survive the fall of civilisation (and hopefully the raise of the new civilisation) with proper preparation. The mistakes of others are great topic for an object lesson for your children.
Kieran: But... it is not merely an intelligence issue per se. The society or culture in which a person is immersed does affect how one views any behavior.
no, not merely a function of intelligence - but to a great extent. Social status, prevailing culture, etc. are responcibe for a fraction of outcome, provided basic instruction (even a smartest person will not look out for germs if he does not know what the germs are).
It may be convenient or not from an individual's point of view but it's pretty much a fact of life that we shoudl take into consideration while making (personal) plans for the future.
miko