Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: gofaster on October 22, 2003, 10:18:53 AM
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A few weeks ago there was a heated discussion about whether certain guns should be outlawed due to their impact on public safety and the safety of police officers. The catalyst for that thread was an article about a police officer who was nearly killed by an SKS assault rifle while chasing a Chevy sedan full of armed gangsters.
So here's the other side of the coin.
In this instance, a private citizen used his gun to protect members of his community. Cleared of the killing and lauded as a hero, the citizen did suffer some post-traumatic stress and only recently openly acknowledged his role in the event.
Its an interesting read.
The link can be found here:
http://www.news-journalonline.com/NewsJournalOnline/News/Florida/03FloridaSTAT04101403.htm
In case that URL gets recycled, I've included the text of the story below.
Man speaks out 21 years after fatal shooting of fleeing mass killer
Associated Press
MIAMI -- Some people called Mark Kram a hero, others a vigilante. Twenty-one years ago, the scrap metal dealer took the law into his hands and fatally shot a deranged teacher who was riding away on a bike after killing eight machine shop employees.
Kram buried the most compelling moment from his past, not even sharing it with his two teenage children until this year. In his first interview about the case in two decades, Kram told The Miami Herald about the mass carnage and the aftereffects.
Kram was working nearby when Carl Brown, who was on psychiatric leave from school, fumed about the shop's refusal to accept a traveler's check for a $20 repair on his lawn mower motor.
Brown mowed down 11 employees at Bob Moore's Welding and Machine Shop, killing eight, and pedaled away with his 12-gauge shotgun slung over his left shoulder Aug. 20, 1982.
Kram stepped out of his shop. A hysterical Ernest Hammett, who worked across the street, ran toward him, shouting, "A bunch of people just got killed at Bob's!"
Kram ran to his office and grabbed two guns. Both men jumped in Kram's car.
Six blocks away, Brown was moving at a leisurely pace. As Kram pulled alongside, he said Brown moved as if he were about to fire again.
From the back seat, Hammett pointed the .38-caliber revolver out the driver's window. Kram grabbed the gun to steady Hammett's hand. They fired what was meant to be a warning shot.
"I have to tell you that both our hands were on that gun when it went off. I don't know whose finger was on the trigger," Kram said.
The bullet hit Brown in the back and severed his aorta, but he kept going. Kram swerved into Brown to stop him.
"I never felt like a hero. I did what I thought was right at that moment, but the truth is I set out to stop Brown, not kill him," Kram said. "Taking a life this way is a terrible thing. Unless you've done it or served in Vietnam or something like that, you don't know what I'm talking about."
Kram, now 52, said his children were surprised to learn of the media onslaught that engulfed their father. "I took out my scrapbook and let them read all the newspaper articles from the time," said Kram. "My 17-year-old daughter said: 'You did the right thing, Dad. It sounds just like you. You don't like to see people hurt."'
His 14-year-old son asked, "Dad, you did that?"
Kram has been haunted all these years by one question: Did he do the right thing in playing judge and jury?
"If you had received the letters full of venom I did, you'd understand," Kram said. "I took the law into my own hands and some people have a big problem with that, and I understand it."
Kram said he has found his own answer.
"What goes around, comes around," he said. "If what I did was wrong, I figured I would have been punished. But I've had a good life."
As then-State Attorney Janet Reno weighed whether to charge Brown's killers, Hammett, a black man, worried about being involved in the death of a white man.
"They're gonna fry me," Hammett, who died in 1989, kept telling Kram. "Those were very scary days."
Reno ruled Brown's killing justifiable to prevent imminent death or injury to others.
Bob Moore, who ran the shop with his mother, was in the Bahamas on the day of the shooting. Brown's victims included Moore's mother Ernestine, 67, and uncle Mangum Moore, 78.
"If I had been in the office that day, I would not be talking to you today," said Moore, now 66. "I'm glad Mark did what he did. He should have gotten a bunch of medals. ... I would have hated to have that guy sit in prison costing taxpayers money."
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"Brown mowed down 11 employees at Bob Moore's Welding and Machine Shop, killing eight, and pedaled away with his 12-gauge shotgun..."
I'm guessing that this isn't the "gun owership" to which you refer....
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I must be missing something....how did gun ownership save lives in this case?
The vigilante killed the gunman AFTER he had mowed down a bunch of employees of that store.
Furthurmore, the vigilante didn't even mean to kill the guy...he did so by accident.
LUCKILY an innocent bystander wasn't killed.
I suppose the answer is that it is 100% certain that the gunman was going to kill more people and that the vigilante saved them?
I'm glad that incidents like this just don't happen where I live.
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Originally posted by popeye
"Brown mowed down 11 employees at Bob Moore's Welding and Machine Shop, killing eight, and pedaled away with his 12-gauge shotgun..."
I'm guessing that this isn't the "gun owership" to which you refer....
The nutcase could just as easily have brandished a machete (its been done before). Then again, had he done so the kill count probably would've been lower.
Still, a lunatic riding around with a shotgun is a clear threat to the community. If he's willing to whack 8 people over a $20 bill, no telling what he would do to someone on the street blocking his way home.
One thing that struck me was that the perp was a teacher. I guess its true - kids really do drive people crazy!
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Those guys are lucky they didn't get pegged for murder. As much as the guy on the bike deserved it, that wasn't self defense, and the man wasn't threatening anyone. It doesn't sound like they even saw the shootings at the lawn mower shop, so they were going off unverified info when they killed him.
But like I said, the guy deserved it.
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According to the CDC:
Annual Firearm Deaths: 28,663 (2000)
Age-Adjusted Death Rate: 10.4 deaths per 100,000 population (2000)
Death Rate for Males Ages 15-19: 22.7 deaths per 100,000 population (2000)
Death Rate for Black Males Ages 15-19: 62.2 deaths per 100,000 population (2000)
Firearm Suicide Deaths: 6.0 per 100,000 population (2000)
Firearm Homicide Deaths: 3.9 per 100,000 population (2000)
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Glad I live in a country where gun ownership is close to impossible. I find the arguments "for" gun ownership most amusing.
...-Gixer
~Hells Angels~
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Originally posted by Gixer
Glad I live in a country where gun ownership is close to impossible. I find the arguments "for" gun ownership most amusing.
...-Gixer
~Hells Angels~
We find it amusing that only the criminals have guns where you live. Bet that gives ya a warm fuzzy (wet) feeling don't it? The way society is heading, crime with illegal guns will get much, much worse before it gets better. :)
I am speaking from the perspective of having no fewer than 4 firearms pointed at me by criminals..never again. Now I shoot back(If in a position to)
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Originally posted by Tarmac
Those guys are lucky they didn't get pegged for murder. As much as the guy on the bike deserved it, that wasn't self defense, and the man wasn't threatening anyone. It doesn't sound like they even saw the shootings at the lawn mower shop, so they were going off unverified info when they killed him.
But like I said, the guy deserved it.
How do you see that?
What do you think the dude was doing with a shotgun slung over his back?
Duck huntingLOL?
He just killed 8 people in cold blood I would say he was a BIG threat to society.
He could have killed at any moment there after who knows and who would want to take that chance? Not me.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
We find it amusing that only the criminals have guns where you live. Bet that gives ya a warm fuzzy (wet) feeling don't it? The way society is heading, crime with illegal guns will get much, much worse before it gets better. :)
How about crime by people like these guys:
KNOXVILLE, Tenn. - A $246 million lawsuit was filed against the designer, marketer and a retailer of the video game series "Grand Theft Auto" by the families of two people shot by teenagers apparently inspired by the game.
The suit claims marketer Sony Computer Entertainment America Inc., designers Take-Two Interactive Software and Rockstar Games, and Wal-Mart, are liable for $46 million in compensatory damages and $200 million in punitive damages.
Aaron Hamel, 45, a registered nurse, was killed and Kimberly Bede, 19, of Moneta, Va., was seriously wounded when their cars were hit June 25 by .22-caliber bullets as they passed through the Great Smoky Mountains.
Stepbrothers William Buckner, 16, and Joshua Buckner, 14, of Newport, were sentenced in August to an indefinite term in state custody after pleading guilty in juvenile court to reckless homicide, endangerment and assault.
The boys told investigators they got the rifles from a locked room in their home and decided to randomly shoot at tractor-trailer rigs, just like in the video game "Grand Theft Auto III."
In a suit filed Monday in Cocke County Circuit Court on behalf of the victims, Miami lawyer Jack Thompson and local lawyer Richard Talley alleged the game "inspires and trains players to shoot at vehicles and persons."
"These kids simply decided to take the thrill of that game out to Interstate 40 and started pointing at cars," Thompson said in a telephone interview Tuesday.
Thompson, who said he sent letters to Sony and Wal-Mart to drop the game before the shootings, said, "It's not like this is coming out of the blue, they chose to ignore this danger."
San Mateo, Calif.-based Sony and Bentonville, Ark.-based Wal-Mart did not return calls for comment Tuesday. The lawsuit alleges the retail giant sold the game to the Buckners about a year before the shootings.
Douglas Lowenstein, president of the industry Entertainment Software Association, called the shootings "an unspeakable tragedy" but said blaming a game played by millions for the boys' actions was "misguided and counterproductive."
"There is no credible evidence that violent games lead to violent behavior," he said. "While video games may provide a simple excuse for the teenagers involved in this incident, responsibility for violent acts belongs to those who commit them."
Thompson has made similar claims in the past and lost, notably a $33 million lawsuit against video game makers stemming from the 1997 school shooting near Paducah, Ky., by a 14-year-old boy.
The 6th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals (news - web sites) ruled in the case last year that it was "simply to far a leap from shooting characters on a video screen to shooting people in a classroom."
At least I don't need to worry about getting shot because some kids enjoy a stupid video game and try and play it for real.
Arguments go both ways my friend.
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If you read the American Rifleman.... every month they have a dozen or so examples of firearms ending criminal behavior and preventing violence against citizens.. it is the section titled "the armed citizen" and they have never had trouble filling the column. The examples are much more recent and clear cut than this bizzare story.
lazs
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Compare New Zealand's crime rate to that of a city in US of equal population and compartive deaths per year by firearms. I could probably count the number of deaths here on one hand. And the number of violent crimes here involving firearms on two hands.
Even the police here don't carry firearms or feel the need to, infact they don't even wear vests. So I certinly feel much safer right here thanks.
So the chances of me being in a position where someone pulls a gun on me and I wish I had mine, probably very close to nil. As for you... 4 times already? I'd be feeling kind of unsafe.
...-Gixer
~Hells Angels~
Originally posted by Ripsnort
We find it amusing that only the criminals have guns where you live. Bet that gives ya a warm fuzzy (wet) feeling don't it? The way society is heading, crime with illegal guns will get much, much worse before it gets better. :)
I am speaking from the perspective of having no fewer than 4 firearms pointed at me by criminals..never again. Now I shoot back(If in a position to)
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Originally posted by Gixer
Compare New Zealand's crime rate to that of a city in US of equal population and compartive deaths per year by firearms. I could probably count the number of deaths here on one hand. And the number of violent crimes here involving firearms on two hands.
Just wait until Gangsta Rap becomes popular in NZ.
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Originally posted by Mickey1992
Just wait until Gangsta Rap becomes popular in NZ.
:rofl
LOL them blokes will run them gangsta rappers outta there country like WE should have:aok
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Originally posted by Gixer
Compare New Zealand's crime rate to that of a city in US of equal population and compartive deaths per year by firearms. I could probably count the number of deaths here on one hand. And the number of violent crimes here involving firearms on two hands.
Even the police here don't carry firearms or feel the need to, infact they don't even wear vests. So I certinly feel much safer right here thanks.
So the chances of me being in a position where someone pulls a gun on me and I wish I had mine, probably very close to nil. As for you... 4 times already? I'd be feeling kind of unsafe.
...-Gixer
~Hells Angels~
We felt safer here too during the 1950's. Time *will* catch up to you.
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Time? New Zealand's gun laws and hence gun ownership has become alot tougher over time rather then easier. Especially in the past 10 years.
...-Gixer
~Hells Angels~
Originally posted by Ripsnort
We felt safer here too during the 1950's. Time *will* catch up to you.
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"We find it amusing that only the criminals have guns where you live. Bet that gives ya a warm fuzzy (wet) feeling don't it? The way society is heading, crime with illegal guns will get much, much worse before it gets better.
I am speaking from the perspective of having no fewer than 4 firearms pointed at me by criminals..never again. Now I shoot back(If in a position to)"
Two things point out.. First is that Ripsnort will cease to join this BBS the next time he runs into armed criminals. DOA and another thread morning a fellow AH pilot, only the lucky ones walk away as heroes in situations he describes. The majority become dead wannabe heroes. It's a bit late to start to pull your weapon when you're held at gunpoint. :)
Second, Rip seems to think other countries share the problems of the US society. In countries where wealth is more evenly shared, despiration is much less common and so is violent crime. Naturally nutcases exist everywhere but with strict gun laws it's much more unlikely for them to own a gun, at least legally. Gun laws also enable law enforcement to take any unlawfully obtained guns away from a person if he shows them in public even once. That greatly reduces their chances of actually shooting someone, usually people threat before they act.
The conservatists idea of life seems to be: Grab everything you can, stomp others in the face in search of own wealth blindly. Build a fortress and arm yourself to teeth because you're scared the misfortunate will want a piece of your wealth. Walk no longer freely on your streets as the mentally weak individuals become strong with a sidearm and nothing to lose.
So yes, you got money and life is good. As long as you don't get shot in your car while doing shopping or end up as a victim of a burglar. Or have your kid fall into the trap of any of the drugdealers working the next streetcorner. I'm constantly amazed about the extent of posters who claim to have a drug problem even on this UBB (yes if you smoke pot you're a pothead and nothing else.)
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isn't NZ a little island full of middle class socialist white guys? compare our middle class white guy gun crime with yours and we come out the same I betcha... imagine if we were an isolated little island that no body cared about! Imagine if you bordered Mexico.
Mrblack... something can indeed be done about school shootings... the little cowards can be stopped. it requires only that the teachers be allowed to have concealed carry permits and that they be allowed to carry concealed while on the job.
Not many would... say 10% but, like the sky marshal program, it would work. every school shooting has been stopped by firearms, in a lot of cases the firearms were illegal (at schools)... teachers getting guns out of their cars for instance. The shooters would not even attempt the slaughter if they thought the sheep had teeth.
lazs
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siaf... being shot at is prefferable to being a socialist. I'll take my chances so long as i can shoot back.
lazs
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Rofl lazs good luck. I prefer living my life without being in constant fear.
Life is so.. easy. You know?
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In a socialist country it is easy if you don't produce compared to in a free country if you don't produce... it is very difficult in a socialist country if you want more than "getting by".
I like my life easy and fun. I don't like the socialist girls telling me what is good for me... I like to decide that myself.. I don't ever expect to be shot or shot at. The opportunities here are worth the miniscule risk tho.
Not a lot of people fleeing this country for yours.
lazs
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lazs...according to you shooting a magnum 44 makes a man grow up to 4 inches.
I assume the opposite of this occurs when the IRS conducts an audit. Significant shrinkage I imagine...say 4 inches.
What would happen if the IRS agent is a woman? Another 4 inches of shrinkage? That could be a real problem for a guy with only say 7 inches naturally.
;)
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This is a socialist country and we produce....so whats your point again?
Tronsky
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Just about as many as are fleeing my country to yours.
It seems socialist replaced 'communist' as a buzz word lately. Where in fact, the best way is something in between which you unfortunately will never realise.
I'm 100% sure more free than you. We don't have any of the ridiculous laws that limit people's actions in their privacy or even public as you have in many states. We don't have censorship in our media. No blurred out mouths, genitals or no beeps over words and the list goes on. I can travel visa free to most of the countries on this planet and I won't feel hated where ever I go. I can walk the streets of any city at night at will and won't feel intimidated. I can breathe clean air and use my every-mans right to go in the forest to hunt, pick berries or even camp temporarily even if the forest is owned by someone else. My personal privacy is protected by law so I can swap files freely without the danger of getting subpenaed by anyone. I can freely use the medical services (including dental) of my city if I feel the need to do so. I can freely study at university level at governments expense.
So yes, I may pay more taxes than you.. But I prefer things our way. I think you need to redefine your meaning of free.
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curval... you are correct. your little island of fantasy under the socialist umbrella is like well... a resort for the socialists.. enjoy it... just don't try to live in one of your protectors countries... you will think the IRS is downright benevolent compasred to say englands taxes on those who produce.
sciaf... all the commies say the same thing... communism works it just hasn't been done right yet. Know why it hasn't? cause it can't friggin possibly work. All else being equal...the more socialism the worse things get. It is a simple thing really.
trotski... tell that to your top earners who want to flee your country. If you produce then you are punished in your country.. if you don't then you are coddled. that is what I meant. Eventually it backfires on you tho... the women end up taking your guns and anything else that you might hurt yourself with. You want the government to take care of you? they are more than willing.
lazs
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sciaf... gee... getting to watch genitals with the kids on tv has got to be more important than the basic right to defend yourself and your family from those who would do em harm.
The genitals on tv thing? couldn't care less one way or the other.
lazs
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I'd rather see skin on tv than violence. "Starsky and Hutch" was freely available for family viewing, but "NYPD Blue" can only show a 1-second cheek shot after 9pm.
Its ok to drag a perp across a bar to shake him for information, but heaven forbid a woman's breast should pop out during a long kiss. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by lazs2
curval... you are correct. your little island of fantasy under the socialist umbrella is like well... a resort for the socialists.. enjoy it... just don't try to live in one of your protectors countries... you will think the IRS is downright benevolent compasred to say englands taxes on those who produce.
A resort for socialists? Americans are socialists? The majority of our visitors are from the US.
We only have one official protector...and that is Great Britain. Don't wish to live there...it would be like living in Seattle or some other rainy state.
They protect us from America for the most part.
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Originally posted by lazs2
trotski... tell that to your top earners who want to flee your country. If you produce then you are punished in your country.. if you don't then you are coddled. that is what I meant. Eventually it backfires on you tho... the women end up taking your guns and anything else that you might hurt yourself with. You want the government to take care of you? they are more than willing.
lazs
What on earth are you on about?
What top earners? If you produce you are punished?? The women take our guns??
You should really ask your nurse if your medication is on the right dose mate
Tronsky
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Yeah this guy is really travelling on some astral level.
He doesn't know the difference between a social democracy and communism.
Sad to see that there are still remaining products of the 50's brainwash.
"getting to watch genitals with the kids on tv has got to be more important than the basic right to defend yourself and your family from those who would do em harm."
Well, gee, I prefer to be in a situation where I don't NEED to defend myself with weapons. Much because every hothead here doesn't own one.
Notice I didn't say crackhead as you'd HAVE to say.
I don't know anyone who would have even thought of getting a gun carry permit because they were afraid.
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If guns are responsible for crimes, then pencils are responsible for spelling mistakes.
always liked that line hehe
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scia... since I don't know where you live I am at a slight dissadvantage... only slight tho. I don't know where you live but I will say that our white middle class gun crime is about the same as yours so.... if you don't have a problem with guns then neither do we. So... if comparable populations have the same amount of problems with guns and one has free access to guns and the other doesn't then it would follow that guns availability make no difference in gun crimes.
curval... so.... you are under the socialist umbrella but don't have to live under the rules. I would venture to say that you don't pay british tax rates. You are in effect... fantasy island. even the brits realize that there has to be someplace to hide from the bad effects of socialism... just curious tho.... what about America are you being protected against and just how do you think england can protect you agaist us if we wanted to do you harm?
trotsky. What I am on about...Your top earner4s are being punished... They flee to America to escape your taxes when they can, not the reverse.... your lower productive people are coddled and riding on the backs of the productive... they are even less productive as a result. Your women took your guns away from you. That and the womenly men in your cities.
I have never figured out how taking rights away from people makes em more free or even secure.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
curval... so.... you are under the socialist umbrella but don't have to live under the rules. I would venture to say that you don't pay british tax rates. You are in effect... fantasy island. even the brits realize that there has to be someplace to hide from the bad effects of socialism... just curious tho.... what about America are you being protected against and just how do you think england can protect you agaist us if we wanted to do you harm?
I guess the fantasy island comment IS a fair one...you are right, we pay no British taxes. We are far less socialist than England though...no unemployemnt insurance, no national public health plan, etc etc. We are like Fantasy Capitalist Land. ;)
As to your question regarding protection....
You see, your politicians would love to shut down our island as they are absolutely convinced we do nothing but sit offshore hiding taxes and laundering money. I'm sure it does happen, but the trillions that are laudered in London, New York, Tokyo etc make our island nothing more than an "easy target". Easy that is until Great Britain steps in and says" Hang on there matey...those are our chaps down there...leave them alone."
Also, we need protection from your lawyers.
Invariably some fat drunk American tourist will stub their toe and demand millions in compensation from the local who owns the land upon which his/her toe was stubbed.
But...we are not subject to your laws and we won't even let a high priced ambulence chaser practice his/her "art" here...you must have local representation...and the highest court of appeal under our law is the Privy Council in England.
As to physical protection...well...we really don't need it....not yet anyway.
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curval.. we pretty much agree then.. I have no interest in changing anything about your island... I probly wouldn't live there since I am not an island person. Things there I could do that I enjoy and things I enjoy that I couldn't do.
I would also agree that you should avoid any dealings with American lawyers or politicians. We have an abundance of both. Our founders relized that a free society would have. They put the 2nd in there to tone em down.
lazs
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My fantasy Island is just great, and I wouldn't have it any other way. Guns have never really been readily available in NZ (especially handguns) and I've yet to hear anyone complain because their right to own a gun has been taken away.
Or that they feel unsafe personally and the need to be armed because the odd crimnal uses a shotgun in a bank robbery.
When I was a teenager I use to enjoy guns and go shooting/hunting all the time. Though I soon grew out of that stage when I was in my early 20's.
So it's interesting to me and I'm sure others, that some still find gun owndership as a way to save lives. Or most interesting of all, that shooting a gun is some sort of macho extension of their noodle.
...-Gixer
~Hells Angels~
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(http://www.a-human-right.com/RKBA/s_hishome.jpg)
"meet you on the streets"
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Originally posted by lazs2
trotsky. What I am on about...Your top earner4s are being punished... They flee to America to escape your taxes when they can, not the reverse.... your lower productive people are coddled and riding on the backs of the productive... they are even less productive as a result. Your women took your guns away from you. That and the womenly men in your cities.
riiiighhttt.....our top earners flee to america...uh-huh...our lower productive people are coddled...uh-huh
well I can pretty much some up your knowledge of our society in a few easy words...bugger all
As for all the women taking our guns, where I work one of the requirements is to have a firearms license and to carry shotguns in our vehicles....hrmmm wonder why my wife hasn't tried to take them all away!?!?!!!
Either that or maybe we've just realised as a society that guns aren't a right, but a privilege my 4 inch friend....
Tronsky
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Win/Win.
They're happy they live where they do.
And we're happy they live there too.
Life is beautiful!
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Why does that guy have a shotgun that has a scope on it that is to defend his home lol. Must be for those long distant shots in the hallways hehe.
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yeah.. a scoped shotgun is a really handy thing huh? The anti gun guys never get anything right do they?
gixer.. odd... a country that has never had guns doesn't miss them being taken away? Most people that are blind from birth don't complain about the loss of sight.
trotski... I see... so guns are ok in some instances and for some reason you feel you need a shotgun in your job to protect you from... from what? Are you saying that you are one of the people that agreed with your women that you are not to be trusted with most firearms?
Toad is right... it's a great situation... you guys like to live in a place of limited freedom and we like you living there. Heck... I even like the fact that you have internet access so that I can read your reasons why I should give up my freedoms. Like listening to one of our liberal women politicians. Most of you would make a good woman liberal politician... Have you considered the operation? the real cause of violence is after all... testosterone.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
trotski... I see... so guns are ok in some instances and for some reason you feel you need a shotgun in your job to protect you from... from what?
Birds...
We use them for bird control....we use bird fright mostly, and as a last resort live shells
LOL we don't need them for protection, although they can peck you ya know :p
Are you saying that you are one of the people that agreed with your women that you are not to be trusted with most firearms?
I do completely agree with our firearm laws...and it wasn't women who bought them in, it was infact the Liberal govt.
Tronsky
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"As for all the women taking our guns, where I work one of the requirements is to have a firearms license and to carry shotguns in our vehicles....hrmmm wonder why my wife hasn't tried to take them all away!?!?!!! "
hmm... you make it sound like you have rights and then you explain that no.... the guns are ornamental and that they only reason you have the shotgun is because your outfit is too cheap to suppy you with some other kind of noisemaker.
Wow..... you may even get to fire a live round once in a while! do you have to get permission from your women and fill out forms first?
so... how did yu vote? did you agree with the women that you would be safe from insane people if you turned in your guns? Did you turn in any guns to be destroyed by your government?
good thing you all regestered your guns so that the govenment had no trouble rounding em all up eh?
lazs
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Lazs did you even stop to ponder why I'm not even a slightest bit worried about my home safety, but you are? Why don't I need a weapon if we have a comparable crime rate? Use some logic.
I could walk today to the police station, get a permit and buy a magnum 44 - because I have a clean record. But as I have no time to shoot as a hobby, why the heck should I?
And.. your comment about top-earners fleeing to america shows your little knowledge. There's a place called Monaco in europe where you pay no income tax whatsoever. That's where the top earners move to, not US.
Your panic filled comments about gun control spell only one thing to me: fear.
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siaf.. I have no idea where you live but I still stick by my statement that we have just as little white middle class gun crime as you do.
If I lived in england I would indeed be worried about people breaking into my home while I was home... I don't worry about that because of firearms ownership in America. If you had the guts to say where you lived I could perhaps point out why you were being foolish to not want to protect yourself or think that you are better off that your neighbor doesn't have a gun. I doubt that no one gets robbed beaten or becomes the victim of a violent crime in your country.
I don't "worry" about it.... I like guns anyway so being able to protect myself with one is a bonus. There are certainly times when I do worry tho... some places in the States that it is prudent to be armed.
As for monaco... so... you admit that socialism drives people away then? The pruductive ones in any case?
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
As for monaco... so... you admit that socialism drives people away then? The pruductive ones in any case?
lazs
It is taxes, not socialism that drives people away.
Ross Perot, Michael Bloomberg and many other Americans live here, for example. Many more have trust arrangements to preserve their family's wealth in Bermuda and Monaco.
Why do they do this?
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I'd like to know the genuine statistics (and not some NRA wishfull thinking) of cases where having a gun in ones home to defend themselves has saved them from possible injury/death.
Compared to the statistics where people have been injured or killed due to the easy availibility of guns to everyone.
...-Gixer
~Hells Angels~
Originally posted by lazs2
siaf.. I have no idea where you live but I still stick by my statement that we have just as little white middle class gun crime as you do.
If I lived in england I would indeed be worried about people breaking into my home while I was home... I don't worry about that because of firearms ownership in America. If you had the guts to say where you lived I could perhaps point out why you were being foolish to not want to protect yourself or think that you are better off that your neighbor doesn't have a gun. I doubt that no one gets robbed beaten or becomes the victim of a violent crime in your country.
I don't "worry" about it.... I like guns anyway so being able to protect myself with one is a bonus. There are certainly times when I do worry tho... some places in the States that it is prudent to be armed.
As for monaco... so... you admit that socialism drives people away then? The pruductive ones in any case?
lazs
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The FBI stats are that at lbetween 600,000 and 1.5 millon times a year guns are used in preventing crimes in America. So far as I know those are the best stats.
So far as the NRA goes... Their record so far as accuracy in reporting is far better than any other source I have ever seen. They tend to get their facts right. Considering the volumn of facts and quotes that they put out there they have an amazing record... the anti gun crowd has a dismal record... mostly they can't print one solid paragraph that isn't rife with easily checked up on errors. The NRA prints a full size magazine (2 actually) every month.
Belive me... there are sissy liberal groups that pore over every word in those magazines looking for factual errors.
Have you ever read an NRA magazine? I will be glad to send you one if you email me with the information... I would let you decide for yourself. Wouldn't hurt you a bit to know what you are talking about eh?
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
"As for all the women taking our guns, where I work one of the requirements is to have a firearms license and to carry shotguns in our vehicles....hrmmm wonder why my wife hasn't tried to take them all away!?!?!!! "
hmm... you make it sound like you have rights and then you explain that no.... the guns are ornamental and that they only reason you have the shotgun is because your outfit is too cheap to suppy you with some other kind of noisemaker.
Wow..... you may even get to fire a live round once in a while! do you have to get permission from your women and fill out forms first?
so... how did yu vote? did you agree with the women that you would be safe from insane people if you turned in your guns? Did you turn in any guns to be destroyed by your government?
good thing you all regestered your guns so that the govenment had no trouble rounding em all up eh?
lazs
:rofl
I didn't need to turn in any guns, because I don't have want any, despite the aparent 4 inch advantages.
I voted labour actually, but then because it was a universally agreeable thing to have our current guns laws, that wasn't even an issue during elections. There is a shooters party, but they didn't get enough votes to get a seat in the lower house.
Although I did read the NSW state liberal party is going to have a mandatory prison sentence (in a maximum security jail) of at least 5-10 years for possesion of a banned firearm as one of their polices in the next election.
As for the shotguns, the airport has some very effective gas powered noisemakers, but you can't actually use them for pest control...and live rounds are a last resort because we don't particulary like shooting Ibis, owls, or other large birds....AND it is after all safe enviroment we're trying to maintain...not a shooting range (or I could just join the Qantas pistol club for that).
I guess thats what responsible firearm use is all about...
Tronsky
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LOL trotski... you just said that you don't have a clue about what gun ownership is about.... responsible or not.... you never owned one..
what you did was vote to take someone elses rights away because you didn't care about their rights and you had an emotional, womanly reaction to someone elses hobby/right.
You screwed them allright but you screwed yourself and anyone born in your family who might have known what it really was to be a gun owner.
You are now contemplating draconian laws to enforce your "ban"... Somehow... talking to you makes me feel like I'm not talking to a real aussie... least not one I would want to be around..
Curval... Isn't high taxes.... socialism?
lazs
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Oh... for the Americans here that think the NRA is paranoid.... read the little commies posts... they passed a law to ban firearms in their country... passed by people who live in large cities... womanly men and women... they used the REGISTRATION of firearms to round up all the guns and then they friggin destroyed em...
Now... they are working on laws that will make the mere possesion of a firearm a prison sentance of 10-20 years?
And the NRA is paranoid?
The real paranoia is the the thing that the liberals and big govenment feed on when they use the media to hype some shooting so that they can have more control over the populace... they feed on the paranoia of the ignorant and emotional.
They realize that these women and womenly type vote and think on the spur of the moment depending on emotion or cycle... they know that no research will be done by these emotion driven folks and they hate any group (such as the NRA) who would tone down the rhetoric with fact.
If you regestered a gun in australia... you are screwed. If you live out in the boonies.... the women in the cities took away your rights and means of defending yourself.
In australia... only criminals have guns. Oh... and the government (that's a comforting thought eh?)
lazs
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Ah the old gun debate again. Actually I don't think the original example beginning the thread is a good one, after all 8 people were killed by the teacher who presumably was a gun owner!
As I've said before I'm not not not against guns but I do believe in some form of control quite simply to prevent the above scenarios. There'll never be a meeting of minds here. In America it's a right. That's not true of anywhere else. In Europe, Australia, New Zealand etc there is heavier gun control and it works. Not only that it's a popular option and there is no debate. Every story of a massacre in a school or office coming out of the US reinforces the perception that they have the balance right. Sure criminals have guns but gun deaths are still low and the likelyhood that your neighbourhood mugger or burglar has a gun is infinitesimal. It may surprise you Lazs and others that much of Europe's gun control is at least in part driven by episodes like Columbine.
I do believe the balance is wrong in the US, too many guns in the wrong hands because of the relatively easy availability. But in fact in most of America gun crime is minimal just like in countries with tougher gun controls.
It is as much a society issue. If you have a gun for defence, rather than fun and sport. Then you have to ask yourself:
What is wrong with the society I live in, if I feel I have to own a gun to feel secure in my own house? Why do I feel I need protection from my fellow citizens or even a democratically elected governnent? Why is crime such an issue that I need a gun to protect myself?
That's the real issue. You need to be working for a society where you only own guns because they are fun or you like to hunt.
I'd be interested in your view on that Lazs.
In general most countries in Europe etc have got the balance right. My own excluded, which even includes BB guns as firearms:eek: But that as much as anything is a result of a long terrorist war not long ended.
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Good post cpxxx.
I was trying to ask lazs2 the same, but since he's obviously lived in fear all his life he can't understand how we feel about things. He lives in a world full of threats, government conspiracy and evil evil commi.. er socialists lurking behind every other turn. It would be comic if it wasn't (apparently) so true.
I would never want to live in an enviroment where I felt so unsafe that I'd need to resort in buying firearms for my personal safety. We have cops, they have guns and I have my cell phone in case trouble happens. In fact, a cell phone is often far more better tool for personal safety than any weapon.
Lazs2 does NRA tell how many gun owners get killed in process trying to defend their homes? Or how many gun owners get killed by their own weapon after the criminal ceises control of it and retaliates?
I bet those cases are kept very quiet.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Good post cpxxx.
I was trying to ask lazs2 the same, but since he's obviously lived in fear all his life he can't understand how we feel about things. He lives in a world full of threats, government conspiracy and evil evil commi.. er socialists lurking behind every other turn. It would be comic if it wasn't (apparently) so true.
I would never want to live in an enviroment where I felt so unsafe that I'd need to resort in buying firearms for my personal safety. We have cops, they have guns and I have my cell phone in case trouble happens. In fact, a cell phone is often far more better tool for personal safety than any weapon.
Lazs2 does NRA tell how many gun owners get killed in process trying to defend their homes? Or how many gun owners get killed by their own weapon after the criminal ceises control of it and retaliates?
I bet those cases are kept very quiet.
I would hate to live in fear. Im sure glad I live in America!
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Sorry Siaf but you're inability or unwillingness to tell us where you live pretty much kills any credibility you might have otherwise when it comes to discussions of locale. Of course I speak only for myself but it's hard for me to believe that many others don't feel the same.
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exactly iron.... Where is this paradise that is so good that it is worth giving up basic freedom for?
look.. you guys ask what sort of society I live in that I fear armed criminals and my own government? A free one. an a place that I prefer to live. The diversity and economy and opportunity are all things that I like but.... they contribute to some of the crime and cultural differences.
fear? caution and preparedness is not fear. taking away your own and your fellow mans rights is fear.
the cesspool that is europe is not what I want to hear from.. The fact that you don't fear your own or your neighbors governments just proves that you are unable to learn from your own gory history.
Bottom line... opportunity and freedom come at a price... in the case of firearms it is a miniscule price.
To be driven by columbine it to be driven by emotion and to be manipulated....
This is a great country to live in.... people don't flee here to go to your countries.... in fact.... this country is full of your countrymen who have fled. Ask them if they are in fear of firearms....
bunch of brainless sissies.
lazs
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oh.. sciaf... I'm sure I'm not the only one wondering.... when you are being mugged.... do you think that hitting the perp with a cell phone is gonna work? Maybe just brandishing the cell phone will be enough to scare em off?
Or maybe.... he just figures it's easier to just get all your money in the mail from your government than it is to actually steal it? Probly tho... he just feels that everyone is about as poor as him so why bother.
lazs
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I have a question... What is it with this left wing obsession with lowering the "gun death" rate????? Lets see, we should all just let the criminals have what ever they want and do what ever they want, but hey, look here! Our gun death rate is lower than yours!
Screw that! Your laws accomidate the criminals and limit the right of the average citizen to defend them selves and their property just to be able to publish some numbers????
I'll be damed if I have to live in a place where I might go to jail for killing someone who breaks into my home! They are there with the intent to do harm to my family... What is your answer to this? Tell me to run? From my own home?!?!?! Bull****! a man has to have a place on this planet that he can draw a line in the sand and say no more!
Maybe that is the difference though, in the socialist countries they don't really own their stuff, didn't have to work for everything they have and don't care if some one breaks into the house the govt gave them,or steals the stuff the govt gave them the $ to buy.:confused:
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NSW state liberal party is going to have a mandatory prison sentence (in a maximum security jail) of at least 5-10 years for possesion of a banned firearm
I'd love to see the list of crimes that have comparable mandatory sentence.
Wonder if you kill somebody with a sharp instrument and be out in less time.
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Seems to be a huge misperception on the part of some of the "anti's" here.
I sure as heck don't own any guns because "I live in fear" or "I need to defend myself". Bought my first gun as a freshman in high school; that was some time ago. ;) Bought a Ruger Mark I .22 semi-auto pistol. Had ONE thought in mind. I'm gonna go burn some .22's at paper targets and cans and have myself some FUN. I did too. Got to the point that my friends would no longer compete for money with me.
Never have bought a gun since to solve some perceived "fear factor" problem. I've always bought guns that I thought would be fun to own and shoot. Got a safe full of 'em now. Still shoot for fun and enjoyment, which includes hunting.
So hearing you guys tell me how I have guns because I'm "afraid" merely causes me to :rofl
And siaf.. I'll echo what Iron and Laz told ya. Your cute little "guess where I'm from" game merely generates a swift skim of your posts and a general lack of interest in your opinion on my part. Sorry, that's just the way it is. If you haven't got the gonads to declare your country so as to provide a frame of reference for your opinions... well, who cares then?
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ask beetle if we were shooting guns out of fear or fun.
I reload... I certainly don't need to handload to defend myself... in fact.. the box of hydoshoks I keep for defensive purposes is only about half gone and that from testing... It is a fun hobby and, like toad I started out with a 22 pistol.
I guess if you never had a freedom you can't miss it. Coming on here tho and trying to convince us that you are better off because you have less freedom is ludicrus.
As for the original example.... never heard of it. one of the strangest I have ever heard of. All those people and no one could get away from a shotgun weilder... Yu would think that everyone would have heard of a 9 person mass murder.... probly a myth.
Read the American Rifleman.... pick any month for decades.... look at the column called the armed citizen and pick any of the examples of legitimate uses of firearms for examples of firearms stoppong crime... with between 3/4 to 1/12 million crimes stoped with firearms a year... they are by far the better examples
not some bizzare crazy person story from years ago dredged up by a guy that is no friend of gun ownership....
lazs
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Originally posted by Gixer
I'd like to know the genuine statistics (and not some NRA wishfull thinking) of cases where having a gun in ones home to defend themselves has saved them from possible injury/death.
Compared to the statistics where people have been injured or killed due to the easy availibility of guns to everyone.
...-Gixer
~Hells Angels~
Well I came qoute you the crime statistics from kennesaw Ga.....where there was a law at one time that you were to own a weapon in your house .....2.6% total crime rate...mostly drunk and disorderly, and a mary jane bust or 2.....hasnt been a murder here in 20 years -----We live 35 miles above Atlanta, only about 15 or so outside the perimeter. The criminals know not to come to Kennesaw.
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Ouch I guess I hit a sore spot with the fear factor.
Where I live plays no factor in this discussion as it didn't earlier, so it's easyer to leave it unmentioned - saves the 'my country is better than yours' bs that always comes out of it. It's enough for you to know I live in europe - even that already raised slander with the 'more intelligent' participants in the discussion. :rofl
Just think the states of europe as the states of U.S. if you will.
I'm discussing sets of minds here. The fact that the mindstates are affected by residense and the crime situation there can't be avoided, nevertheless.
Lazs feels he needs weapons to protect his family. I don't. Fear on lazs part.
Lazs feels he can shoot a mugger with his sidearm. I don't see myself in a situation like that to start with. Last time I got in a situation like that I was 16 and drunk. Again, fear on lazs part.
Shooting an unarmed perp with a handgun would result in a jail sentence anyway most likely, not a very good solution. I'd try my chances running first. If the perp is armed with a knife, according to american gun magazines I've read your chances are next to nil if you try to make the pull. Again, not a very good solution.
Then again, if the perp has a sidearm? You can duel him out and see who wins? lol.. Wild west all over again? No thanks. I prefer him take my wallet and walk away. I don't carry any cash on me, only creditcards and they can be cancelled with 1 cell phone call. That is, if I'd think I'd get robbed in a public place, which I don't as it just doesn't happen except in very rare cases.
Toad: First of all, none of my posts were addressed to you. The world doesn't spin around your belly as much as you'd like it to. Therefore I did _not_ claim you own any of your guns out of fear. Lazs and people like him do.
As what goes for owning guns for hobby purposes, I've shot guns as a hobby also. My uncle owns several firearms and we've gone out on the range quite many times. (As you see, gun ownership isn't illegal here, takes only a background check and a permit. Still firearms are quite rare if you count out the hunters.)
Shooting is a fun hobby. However you must also understand the fundamental difference in lazs message - he feels he needs the weapon for his protection while I see I don't really need that kind of protection as the threat just isn't there. The few times I have witnessed trouble the law enforcement has handled the situation swiftly and efficiently.
So either your fears are valid and you do need a weapon to protect you, or you don't. Which way is it?
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Just FYI, I don't keep any of my guns where they are accessible. They are in a fire proof safe as I feel my home is more likely going to fall victom to fire than a break-in. This is because I chose where I live very carefuly. The #1 reason I own firearms is hunting, #2, fun.
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sci... you are talking out your butt... the statistics are that you are 2.6 to 7 times more likely to not be injured if you resist an attacker with a gun (depending on your gender). If you shoot an unarmed burglar in your home you are in the clear if you can prove you felt threatened... if he is on your stairs then he is blocking your escape so he is paid for. go ahead and run or hit him with your cell phone... hope he isn't younger or faster or tougher than you... for the old and infirm.... well.... serves em right eh? women? Women guess they can run or scream or just not fight.
In england the recomended course of action when your house is being burglarized while you are in the house is to hide and shiver. sorry... gonna go with shooting the a hole. In the U.S. if a aburglar is in your house when you are home he is most likely rabid since that doesn't happen here... they are afraid of armed homeowners.
fear? who is the person with fear? the one prepared or the one hiding in his room hoping the bad guy will just take what he wants and go away? I don't fear my fellow man... I don't fear him being armed. Like I said... There is no more white middle class gun crime in my country thatn yours so.... fearing firearms is simply neurotic or.... bigoted.. would you have us not allow people of color the rigtht to own a gun or.... would you take guns away from everyone because of the few?
Heck... we even have the occassional riot here.... the places defended with guns become "riot free zones". everyone else is shivering with your so called "fear'.
So... I gotta ask... how long in your little country... from the time the bad guy says gimme all your stuff to the time you whip out the old cell phone.... how long befor the cops get there to make their report... How long till the ambulance gets there?
You don't know anything about America or about guns. I believe that is your loss. Too bad you gave up your freedoms... Justify it any way you like.
Oh... and the fact that you are ashamed of where you live gives less credence to your attack on our way of life.
lazs
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Where I live plays no factor in this discussion as it didn't earlier, so it's easyer to leave it unmentioned - saves the 'my country is better than yours' bs that always comes out of it.
What a cop out. My country is better than yours? LOL! Isn't that what you are doing? Why not let us know what country you live in? Ashamed?
It's all good to be able to take shots and make comments about our laws while no one is able to point out or research the laws of your country.
I can't think of one American on the BBS who would be ashamed to tell you he or she is from America.
If you are going to compare something about our country to yours, you need to let us know what country you are comparing us to. Otherwise you are talking out your rear.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Where I live plays no factor in this discussion as it didn't earlier, so it's easyer to leave it unmentioned - saves the 'my country is better than yours' bs that always comes out of it.
Your location gives us a frame of reference for your perspective and helps us understand your point of view. But hey, you don't care if we give any credence to your views, your prerogative.
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Originally posted by lazs2
LOL trotski... you just said that you don't have a clue about what gun ownership is about.... responsible or not.... you never owned one..
what you did was vote to take someone elses rights away because you didn't care about their rights and you had an emotional, womanly reaction to someone elses hobby/right.
You screwed them allright but you screwed yourself and anyone born in your family who might have known what it really was to be a gun owner.
You are now contemplating draconian laws to enforce your "ban"... Somehow... talking to you makes me feel like I'm not talking to a real aussie... least not one I would want to be around..
Curval... Isn't high taxes.... socialism?
lazs
Every australian govt. has gradually redressed and increased the firearm laws, including state and federal governments both the labour and liberal ones.
And because firearm laws have never been a election issue of any substance, I've never even had to consider that political parties stance on firearm ownership and use. And why?
Because what ever you think you know about real Aussies, most Australians are in favour of those laws.
So perhaps you have never known what a real Aussie is.
you just said that you don't have a clue about what gun ownership is about
I did? Because I don't want a gun means I have no clue about it?
I did explain I am in an enviroment where guns are an accepted tool for my workplace, you got that right?
Hrmmmm....you do realise I can actaully buy a gun if I wished...or join a pistol club or gun club....perhaps I'm not the one with no real clue in this matter.
What concerns me is that you are living proof of every sterotypical gun toting American nut we see in the world, but I know from talking to other americans ,that you are luckily not a typical american.
Tronsky
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It's interesting to me the number of people on this BB that always try to equate the ownership of a firearm, certain brand of motorcycle, a SUV or truck with the length of one's genitals.
I wish it would work, I have to admit that an extra 4" would make the better half a happier woman ;) .
I can only speak for myself. I'm a gadget freak. I love most any kind of "gadget". Firearms, computers, motorcycles are the ultimate gadgets in my view. They can do so much and they are fun to mess with. Trucks and SUVs, of which I own one and my wife the other are very usefull vehicles and have paid for themselves with that utility time after time. I am fairly large for my age and most small vehicles are just plain crowded to me. I suppose if I always drove by myself and never had to carry anything then I could find comfort in something smaller assuming it was fairly sporty and roomy.
Scocialism is fine for those people that want it and as Toad has pointed out it's good those that like it have it. I personaly don't want it even if it means I have to struggle more to acheive the comfort level of life I want.
Freedom does require responsibility. Personal responsibility is something that has seemed to become passe in recent times and it is dissapointing to see how it has spread and been embraced by so many in this country. It is always someone else's fault.
I've rambled enough...
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First of all, many of you think you can just conveniently escape the discussion hanging on that last thread of hope of not knowing my nationality.. If you don't have answers to the issues, it's another thing. Escaping the discussion is another. As I said there's no need for the pissing contest I know there _will_ be. The first thing I will hear is the good old 'we bailed you out during WW2', then 'we gave your country foreign aid' and the list goes on. I've heard them all and they're still as dumb as they were when first stated.
Lazs: "There is no more white middle class gun crime in my country thatn yours so" Why do you keep repeating that mantra? What about black, hispanic, oriental etc. crime? You think you can conveniently just pick the group that has about normal crime rates and finish with the discussion? You know as well as I do that the burglar in your house will most likely not be white.
The fact remains I do not need a weapon to protect myself. You seem to do.
In fact, I don't know anyone who would even consider such a thing. I don't know anyone whose home would have got burglared. Only case to my knowledge was breaking and entry to a summer cottage which is empty during winter. Guns won't help there if you're away. Riots? There are no riots here.
You asked about the response time of the police, paramedics etc. They're typically about 15 minutes. I've called the police about 5 times in my lifetime, as a sidestander though as the cases were drunk driving etc. Or in one case as a result of a car crash.
As what goes with gun owning, registrated gun owning is fully possible where I live. Lazs want's to keep unregistered guns because he has a paranoia about the government. He fears the evil socialists will seize power in the U.S. and collect his precious toys away from him.
Heck, I'm all for guns as long as they're controlled. Mentally insane people should not be allowed to buy weapons, nor do convicted criminals. So if a perp is seen with a weapon there's always legit reason to get him arrested. There has to be control over leathal weapons.
Godzilla: I'm not ashamed of my country, quite the contrary. However as my views hardly represent the general public here, I have no need to speak as a representative of my country.
You already hate all euro's after Bush tried to bully them into the illegal Iraqi offensive and failed effectively breaking the old coalition in the process. An act that was quoted as 'a historical error.' Then your media wrote a few bad articles about france and everyone's opinnion now seems to be france is a bigger baddie than NK, Iraq or even Afghanistan. It's hilarious, just a few weeks ago they were your allies, now the biggest enemy and traitors. If the US wants to play the vigilante and pass UN judgement it has to do it alone, what did you expect? Russia already responded to this and took pre-emptive strikes to its military doctrine. I want to see the judgement they'll get on the first pre-emptive strike. :rofl
A few days ago someone posted a 'horror video' about a russian aircrew being shot down in afghanistan. People expressed compassion to the russian crews. They conveniently forgot that the russians were shot by a stinger which your government provided to the afghans free of charge and trained to use it. Before 9/11 or end of cold war the same video would have raised cheers as teh evil commies got shot down by your brave mujahadeen friends.
You're being yanked by the chain so bad.
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lol france--nothing more to say
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drone I bet you don't even know what you're talking about. Have you ever left the soil of US?
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Originally posted by Toad
I sure as heck don't own any guns because "I live in fear" or "I need to defend myself".
Never have bought a gun since to solve some perceived "fear factor" problem.
So hearing you guys tell me how I have guns because I'm "afraid" merely causes me to :rofl
First off...I'm not an "anti", as I have said many times on this BBS. I just happen to live in a country where guns are simply not allowed.
Each time I mention this inevitably the "fear factor" is mentioned.
It isn't the "antis" that state that guns are necessary because of fear...it is the pro-gun posters who always fall back on the same old "crimminals are the only ones with guns" arguement and that we who live in countries without guns are the ones who should be afraid. This argument suggests that the only way that pro-gun guys feel safe themselves is due to their ownership of guns.
It is a logical assumption based upon the pro-gun logic.
Of course then, convieniently, the argument switches to "we have guns because they are fun".
This makes me :rolleyes:.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Lazs: "There is no more white middle class gun crime in my country thatn yours so"
I guess we have to beleive whatever you say about your country, since we don't know ( and you refuse to say) what country you are talking about and we cannot reference what you say or reseach it. How convenient.
You can basically make up whatever you want to say about your mythical country. Do you have wonderous dragons and great wizards were you live? Tell us more of this land.
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look... read what mark wrote.. feedom needs responsibility... I am willing to accept responsibility in order to have freedom.
We will never agree because socialists trust their government... truth is... Americans don't trust their government... we believe that is the way it should be.
the funny part is... the socialists have less reason to trust theirs than we do... you all have such shocked looks on your faces when it all goes to ****e.... YU liked your french government in WWII? that wasn't all that long ago? short memory?
I think white crime is relevant.. why should we make laws based on the lowest of criminals. Why don't you open up your borders? I would rather have the diversity and a few riots now and then.
sissies.... give up your rights and freedoms to feel secure... Americans don't understand that...
15 minutes to get a cop? guess nothing bad could happen to yu in that short a time eh?
Aussies? Guess i wil go with the 40% or more that voted agaisns you and the rest of the women trotski. they don't hide in their cities begging their nanny government ot protect them no matter wht the cost.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
sissies.... give up your rights and freedoms to feel secure... Americans don't understand that...
ROFLMAO!!!
Just have a look at how your "Homeland Security" plans to keep you all "safe". It takes your freedoms and ditches them convieniently whenever a perceived threat comes along.
Good luck with that.
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Originally posted by Curval
ROFLMAO!!!
Just have a look at how your "Homeland Security" plans to keep you all "safe". It takes your freedoms and ditches them convieniently whenever a perceived threat comes along.
Good luck with that.
"Homeland Security" what an ominous albeit vague sounding threat to freedom. Care to be a bit more specific?
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I'm surprised you need me to point it out to you...but there is a new entire governmental department in the US dedicated to Homeland Security.
Threats and Protection. (http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/theme_home6.jsp)
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Lazs I don't know how many times I have to repeat it but buying a handgun to protect my home would be the equivalent to me as dragging a rubber dingy behind my mercedes in case I'd happen to run it into a water filled sinkhole.
It's pointless for you to stick with the 15 minutes lazs. I doubt I'll ever need to test the response time in personal distress and even if I did, my home door is capable of holding the perp for 15 minutes, which is usually enough. Even if he did enter, he's not likely to be armed as every joe down here doesn't carry a gun.
I've read stories about tourists driving with rented cars on your highways and getting stoped at gunpoint by the police for a traffic violation. I've seen episodes of Cops and I have to say the police down there expect to see 10x violent crime compared to here.
Godzilla: In addition to the fact that you didn't read my post properly (the text in marks was a quote of lazs2) I can see how it might be hard to understand how someone can feel safe, relaxed and not threatened. It's just how things happen to be here and large parts of europe. When people have a social security network behind them, they don't have the need to be desperate. Despiration leads into desperate acts, riots, drug abuse and drug related crime.
The world is changing though. Many european countries are getting pested by illegal (or even legal) immigrants from russia, georgia, albania and the likes. The albanian problem is rampant in greece, where people resort in putting bars on their windows now. In italy and spain there's a constant stream of illegal immigrants from libya and other african countries. There are regions where 80% of the crime is already done by minorities from the eastern block. It's one of the challenges of our society to block the influx of bad material looking for a better life, often via crime. So far it's quite successful in my country, worse for some others.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
It's one of the challenges of our society to block the influx of bad material looking for a better life, often via crime. So far it's quite successful in my country, worse for some others.
I guess we just have to take your word for it?
If you would be honest and tell us the country, we could have an open discussion with all sides being able to fairly look at facts. As it is, you sit behind a veil and act like it's fair and normal to do so.
Kind of makes arguing with you pointless.
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Originally posted by Curval
I'm surprised you need me to point it out to you...but there is a new entire governmental department in the US dedicated to Homeland Security.
Threats and Protection. (http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/theme_home6.jsp)
I do in fact know what Homeland Security is. Please tell me why you think it is a threat to "freedom". That is what you said isn't it?
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AKIron if I understood correctly, several basic rights of the U.S. citizen were overrun when the new anti-terrorist actions took place. If I recall right, there was talk about total loss of privacy in electronic media - the government basically reserved the right to eavesdrop anyone at will. There were many other issues too, raised after the 911 but I can't recall them as they don't affect me.
Godzilla yes, you just have to take my word for it. Is it really so hard to grasp that there might be still places on this planet where you don't have to keep a shotgun next to you to stop crackeads breaking in? :)
There are many, many places where people still don't bother to lock their doors for the night.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
There are many, many places where people still don't bother to lock their doors for the night.
Only because the buggers would steal the locks as well.
(http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/extern/640697.jpg)
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Rofl swoop
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Well I don't understand why all those who don't live in the Us should give a rats Arse.
But I do live in America and If you break into my house you DIE
that simple nothing more nothing less.
Thank God I live in a country that allows me to protect myself and my family
GOD BLESS AMERICA
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Godzilla yes, you just have to take my word for it. Is it really so hard to grasp that there might be still places on this planet where you don't have to keep a shotgun next to you to stop crackeads breaking in? :)
There are many, many places where people still don't bother to lock their doors for the night.
All I said was that it is pointless to argue with you when you compair your mystery country with ours. You sit and take shots at us, pointing out our laws and no one can counter by pointing out anything about your country.
Makes me think of you as a coward afraid to have a real debate.
There are lots of places where the citizens are "safe" and dont worry about crackheads breaking in: China, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc. They might have other things to worry about though.
I have never known anyone that has had a house broken into, let alone while they were in it. The worst that has ever happened to me was that I had a bike stolen from my backyard while I was having a big party. Yeah, It's real scary over here.
You have higher crime rates in Europe than we do in the US. You have higher murder rates too. Some of the most dangerous places to live are in Europe. I'll just assume you want to be seen as one big country like you said ( like US states). From now on, I will consider all of Europe as your home and base my arguments on that.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
AKIron if I understood correctly, several basic rights of the U.S. citizen were overrun when the new anti-terrorist actions took place. If I recall right, there was talk about total loss of privacy in electronic media - the government basically reserved the right to eavesdrop anyone at will. There were many other issues too, raised after the 911 but I can't recall them as they don't affect me.
Godzilla yes, you just have to take my word for it. Is it really so hard to grasp that there might be still places on this planet where you don't have to keep a shotgun next to you to stop crackeads breaking in? :)
There are many, many places where people still don't bother to lock their doors for the night.
Only because you listen to and believe those determined to instill fear to further their political goals. There is a lot of TALK about the government invading private citizens privacy. The Patriot Act really didn't change that right to privacy. Now, if you're talking about protecting the rights on non-citizen would-be terrorists, then I must say they deserve no rights or privleges in my country and if you don't like that then it'sjust too bad for you.
There are lots of places in the US where folks don't lock their doors at night too.
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AKIron I believe that. Are you saying still that you agree with lazs on the subject? It's best to pump the nation full of unregistered firearms?
The whole idea of having to resort to guns as a protection is familiar to me only from 'death wish 1, 2 and 3' movies. :)
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
AKIron I believe that. Are you saying still that you agree with lazs on the subject? It's best to pump the nation full of unregistered firearms?
The whole idea of having to resort to guns as a protection is familiar to me only from 'death wish 1, 2 and 3' movies. :)
I believe in the US Constitution including the 2nd Amendment, even swore and oath to defend it.
I have no problem with registering firearms. There are criminals that should be denied the right to possess them. I'm also not afraid that our government might at some time decide to use said registration to take them away from law abiding citizens. It's not that I don't believe the government will never abuse it's authority and try to do so, it's that I believe it would be unsuccessful.
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Excellent! Then we're actually on the same side.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Excellent! Then we're actually on the same side.
So long as we're talking only registering and not permission for non-felons then maybe we are. Only when it comes to handguns though. I see no need to register rifles or shotguns.
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Originally posted by Godzilla
You have higher crime rates in Europe than we do in the US. You have higher murder rates too. Some of the most dangerous places to live are in Europe.
Godzilla/NUKE - you're full of toejam.
OK, I took Lazs up on his kind offer to go shooting with his guns. Here is my assessment!
I arived at Lazs's hovel (at 1313 Mockingbird Lane, Dixon) and rang the doorbell. The door was open but the screen was closed. "Come on in", boomed a big voice from the back. I was wary about entering, lest I was shot. But I shouted out "Don't shoot!", and Lazs complied. :) He was in the back playing Aces High - on Euro Prime Time - LOL!
You can read all about Monday's shoot out in this thread (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=99436).
Just in case you were wondering, Lazs is a very good instructor in firearms, very knowledgeable about same, and very safety conscious. He could run his own gun range! Certainly, Tomato and I felt like we were in good hands for our shooting lesson. I don't see Lazs's gun ownership as anything more than a hobby - he is certainly very keen! He has a gun safe in his hovel, and keeps only the .45 semi auto on his night stand for protection.
In light of my enhanced knowledge of guns, I present a Beet1e FAQ... - Would I join a UK gun club on the strength of Monday's shoot out with Lazs? No, but I did enjoy our day out, and would visit Lazs again if the invitation were to be extended.
- Would I buy a gun for personal protection in America in light of Monday's shoot out? No, I don't think so. I don't feel afraid in America. After leaving Lazs's hovel, we went south to Monterey, and stayed there, then stayed at Santa Barbara, Oxnard, and San Diego in a variety of motels. At no time did I feel disadvantaged by not having a gun. At no time did I feel that our motel room was in danger of being invaded by an armed assailant. OK, we stayed in respectable places, and I always asked for 2nd floor rooms (one above ground level) and always checked the windows (including bathroom window) to make sure they were locked.
- Does personal firearm ownership protect one from outside attack? No, I don't think so. I am representative of many of those gun toting wannabes. It's one thing to buy a gun, but quite another to become proficient in its use. A burglar is going to be an expert in guns if he plans to use one at his next hit. Can the same be said for American gun owners? Probably not. Take the number of gun owners that live in your state. Divide that by the number of gun ranges in that state. That quotient is the number of people in your state who should be practising at a range, as I did with Lazs on Monday. My guess is that most privately owned handguns never leave the box they were in at the time of purchase. I don't agree that possession of a gun makes one safe. If that were true, then we would not have ~70 US policemen dying each year in the line of duty (versus none in the UK.)
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Beetle, trying to get that guy to even tell someone what country he's from, while he lists claims about his country and argues a point he thinks he's making, is hilarious.
He says he is "from Europe" and that's all we need to know. Europe can be a lot of things depending on which part of Europe you are in.
Basically we have a debate coward on our hands :)
Beetle, are you sure Laz wants you posting his address on the BBS?
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Cripes, even for the US I wouldn't of thought that the figures would be that high.
So what are the FBI figures were crimes are commited with guns? And also the FBI figures for people killed and wounded?
By the way, why are liberal's tagged as "sissy"? If you have a gun and support gun laws does that make you macho and more of a man?
....-Gixer
~Hells Angels~
Originally posted by lazs2
The FBI stats are that at lbetween 600,000 and 1.5 millon times a year guns are used in preventing crimes in America. So far as I know those are the best stats.
So far as the NRA goes... Their record so far as accuracy in reporting is far better than any other source I have ever seen. They tend to get their facts right. Considering the volumn of facts and quotes that they put out there they have an amazing record... the anti gun crowd has a dismal record... mostly they can't print one solid paragraph that isn't rife with easily checked up on errors. The NRA prints a full size magazine (2 actually) every month.
Belive me... there are sissy liberal groups that pore over every word in those magazines looking for factual errors.
Have you ever read an NRA magazine? I will be glad to send you one if you email me with the information... I would let you decide for yourself. Wouldn't hurt you a bit to know what you are talking about eh?
lazs
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
drone I bet you don't even know what you're talking about. Have you ever left the soil of US?
Hmmm lived 3 years in Saudi Arabia--then 2 years in Iran--left Iran in 77.....Oh that was real fun dodging the holy Rollers trying to kill anything that wasnt Muslim...
You ever fly in the 70's? America still isnt deluged with the crap that you had to go through to fly at that time-- Nothing like watching your family get strip searched......
I've been all over the middle east --went to africa a few times --been all over Europe also ---
I have been privileged with being able to see and live, the intelligent and the stupid of a lot of different cultures....
And I'm not talking military either--
Unlike a majority of people who give opinions about certain things I actually lived what I talk about, didnt see it on TV or read about it in a newspaper......
Have you ever left your tiny piece of soil and seen other worlds and cultures..I'm almost willing to put up money that you have ...but I dont see where you have learned a damn thing about any of it --
try living it instead of just driving by it...Then maybe YOUR opinions might mean more than words on the wind...........
Oh and Beetle, most people who own weapons in the US have lived and learned them from fathers, grandfathers,uncles,aunts and even mothers ---a majority know their weapons and use and practice them regularly....but true there are a few out there how should not only NOT own a firearm, they make you wonder how they keep breathing on their own......
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Unless you have lived in a ghetto, you have absolutely no basis to say that gun ownership is a bad thing or that it costs lives.
If you don't know what a ghetto is, then you don't know what crime truly is.
-SW
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Originally posted by drone
Oh and Beetle, most people who own weapons in the US have lived and learned them from fathers, grandfathers,uncles,aunts and even mothers ---a majority know their weapons and use and practice them regularly
(http://130.89.160.183/jig/fora/bsflag.gif)
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Originally posted by lazs2
the funny part is... the socialists have less reason to trust theirs than we do... you all have such shocked looks on your faces when it all goes to ****e.... YU liked your french government in WWII? that wasn't all that long ago? short memory?
What French governement ?
The illegal one Roosevelt was supporting/endorsing ?
Cut'n paste from http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/wwtwo/allies_at_war_03.shtml
Churchill also flirted briefly with Vichy but by the spring of 1941 he realised that Petain and the Vichy leaders in the French empire had no intention of resuming the fight. He and de Gaulle decided on a joint British and Free French invasion of the Vichy controlled countries of Syria and Lebanon.
However, after local Vichy forces surrendered and an armistice was concluded, de Gaulle believed that he had been double-crossed by the British commanders on the spot who rode roughshod over commitments made to the Free French. He thought that Britain had secret designs on French territories in the Middle East and his suspicions led to his first row with Churchill.
By the end of 1941, the two men had resolved their differences and seemed once again united. Then, on 7 December 1941, Pearl Harbour finally forced the United States into the war. Churchill's prayers were answered. At last Roosevelt was a fighting ally. Amidst the Anglo-American harmony between the two leaders, there was only one immediate note of discord - the problem of France.
'Roosevelt began to see de Gaulle as an untrustworthy nuisance.'
While Churchill had stayed loyal to de Gaulle and the Free French, Roosevelt had continued to cultivate Vichy and ignore de Gaulle. A fortnight after Pearl Harbour de Gaulle launched a Free French coup against the tiny, Vichy controlled islands of St Pierre and Miquelon, just off the coast of Newfoundland. His unauthorised action infuriated the American government and Roosevelt began to see de Gaulle as an untrustworthy nuisance. The dispute deepened during the British and French invasion of French North and West Africa in late 1942, Operation 'Torch', from which Roosevelt insisted that de Gaulle be excluded. Roosevelt hoped that as soon as allied forces arrived on French African soil, the local Vichy commanders would switch from collaboration with the Nazis to collaboration with the British and French.
Roosevelt alighted on another French General, Henri Giraud, whom he intended to promote as a rival leader to de Gaulle. Giraud had been captured by the Nazis in May 1940. In early 1942 he dramatically escaped from the German fortress in which he was held prisoner of war. He was brave, high ranking, untainted by Vichy collaborationism, and, most important of all from Roosevelt's point of view, had no connection with de Gaulle. He seemed the ideal figurehead. Roosevelt received assurances from American emissaries in Algeria that, as soon as Giraud appeared on the scene, the local Vichy leaders, both civilian and military, would instantly accept his command.
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AKsW: Well I kinda agree that in a ghetto you need a cannon, a bulletproof vest and a tank for a vehicle.
However I'd never choose to live in one. Why would you?
I mean there must be alternatives other than responding to the threat of violence with more violence. That's anarchy, not a functional society.
NUKE: "He says he is "from Europe" and that's all we need to know. Europe can be a lot of things depending on which part of Europe you are in.
Basically we have a debate coward on our hands "
Well it's just about as accurate as you are if you say you come from the United States of America. In some states you can get executed and others don't. In some states you're not allowed to have certain sex positions in the privacy of your own home and others you are.. So what uniformity is that then?
Basically the very same thing.
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hmm...sci admits that when his country has immigration then it is a dangerous place... a place that needs bars on the windows... What is more fearful? putting yourself in jail or.... all the criminals knowing homeowners are armed and not breaking in in the first place? So long as everyone is equally poor you have no problem? so long as everyone looks the same and was born there you have no propblem? NO thanks.
beetle did not give my address.. also... beetle wouldn't need to have a gun in Americal in a middle or upper class neighborhood... probly... the reason is that all the other gun owners are doing the heavy lifting for him allready... burglars don't break into homes when the people are howm cause they THINK beetle is armed.
look socialists.... this is how it is.... America is a land of opportunity... a rich country where there ar tiers of econmic prosperity... poverty stricken and rich and a huge middle class that both of those (and the government) feed on. We are bordered by a 4th world nation with a porus border. If everyone were just as poor as his neighbor and our borders were with richer or equally poor countries like you socialists and we didn't care what the government did to us... then we probly could do without guns too... fact... like you... we wouldn't have any choice in the matter.
but... that is not the case... we have what we have and we like it. There is nothing you have that is worth changing our system... nothing you have that I want or envy. Sorry that it bothers you that we have freedcoms. get over it or embrace it.
lazs
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I will go a step further than iron... I see no need to regester any firearm. I see no reason that any man or woman who is mentally competent should not have any firearm they desire... I think that if a man kills 20 children with an M16 at a school and lives to serve time.... When they let him out he should get his gun back and take his place in the voting booth.
If he is too dangerous to have a LEGAL gun then he is too dangerous to be out.
socialist sissies? well yes... whenever you vote like women... to take away someone elses rights... you are a sissy.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
burglars don't break into homes when the people are howm cause they THINK beetle is armed.
Huh, and I always thought it was because they knew I had nothing worth nicking...
You're right. I didn't give your address. But I wondered if anyone recognises who lives at the address I did give?
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You have actually hit on it beetle...
In America people commit crime because it is so wealthy with such opportunity and freedom.. some use the opportunity to better themselves and others use it to become criminals... we have the biggest drug culture in the world.. We have porus borders with a 4th world nation whose main exports is drugs,crime, poverty, corruption and babies.
in a socialist country there is no point in robbing someone who has no more than you do. You don't generaly have bigotry with people who look exactly like you and speak the same language.
lazs
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Originally posted by Curval
Of course then, convieniently, the argument switches to "we have guns because they are fun".
It isn't the least bit convenient. It's simply the truth.
In Kansas in 2002, there were 121,522 resident hunting licenses sold; 52,560 non-resident hunting licenses sold. Of course, that doesn't count guys like me that bought a lifetime license ten years ago.
We've got a population of about 2,500.000, about 1.5 million between the ages of 19 and 64. About half of that male, so figure maybe 750,000 males of routine "hunting age". Roughly one out of seven of us buys a license then; got to figure if they buy the license they're going hunting.
Most folks go hunting because they enjoy it.
Opening day is November 8; the outdoors stores are doing big business. Hotels and motels in "small town Kansas" are booked solid. You can't get a room in any of the decent areas for pheasant hunting. Churches are planning big hunter's pancake breakfasts. Families are planning reunions around opening day; old friends are linking up. I have friends from as far away as North Carolina, Texas and Wyoming coming in to hunt and socialize. Some of those guys I haven't seen for literally 10+ years.
We do all this because we live in fear. :rofl
It's a great sport, it's excellent recreation. And for all of you wondering about the untrained gun handlers... there will be a TON of guys out there that haven't picked up a gun since last opening day.
Guess what?
There were four hunting-related fatalities in 2002. Though the number of fatalities was unusually high, the overall number of accidents, 16, was a record low. Kansas averages between one and two hunting fatalities a year. There was one in 2001 and none in 2000.
Average of two a year. Lots of "untrained" gun handlers, handling "unregistered guns"; rifles, pistols, shotguns, bolts, semi-autos.
In Kansas, in 2002, 512 fatalities were directly attributed to automobiles. These autos were registered and driven by trained and tested drivers who were (supposed to be) licensed.
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Toad..I don't doubt it is fun...in fact I KNOW it is fun.
What I was getting at is that the arguments from the very pro-gun side against any form of "control" is that under such a system only crimminals have the guns..therefore by extension those who live under such a government must live in fear of those crimminals as we cannot adequately protect ourselves.
This logic suggests that the pro-gun types only feel safe because they are armed.
It is an argument that tries to quell any debate on gun control. Lazs mentions that he can even protect himself from his own government, should they get out of hand...and that those of us who are not so armed are at the complete mercy of our respective governments.
It all then gets tied into the inalienable right of Americans, as laid out in your constitution, that your people can arm themselves.
Suddenly, when counter-arguments are made...such as "Well you obviously live in fear of your own government" the pro-gun types then turn to the "we fire guns because they are fun".
Now..did the founding fathers, or framers of the constitution have "fun" in mind when they proclaimed that every American has the right to carry a weapon?...possibly, but I think you'd agree that the actual reason is more to do with self protection. I very much doubt they looked upon guns as a means of gaining the "viagra" effect, for example.
Also..I'm not so sure black people or Mexicans were much of a threat when the constitution was drafted.
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Originally posted by Curval
Also..I'm not so sure black people or Mexicans were much of a threat when the constitution was drafted.
No, it was the British who were the threat when the constitution was drafted.
(http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/extern/640697.jpg)
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P.S.
Lazs,
I'd actually really like to read an NRA mag. What's yr email addy?
(http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/extern/640697.jpg)
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Originally posted by beet1e
(http://130.89.160.183/jig/fora/bsflag.gif)
LOL apt reply. and uh isnt that the addy of Bond fame? Crist cant remember off hand----I keep thinking of Thatcher for some reason...
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swoop... isn't my info correct on the BB? I know you have emailed me in the past?
send me an email with your address and I will send you a couple of copies of "The American Rifleman" Would be glad to. But of course.... you could njoin the NRA and get 12 months of the mag for $35.... seiously... I doubt you will find any sensationalism or frothing at the mouth articles... the same cannot be said for the anti gun crowd tho..
Also... for any of you who wish to understand just what is going on with firearms inm the U.S. I would highly suggest getting the book "More guns less crime" by john lott... Amazon.com should have it but it's one of the few books that is hard to get used copies of.
lazs
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hmm...sci admits that when his country has immigration then it is a dangerous place... a place that needs bars on the windows... What is more fearful? putting yourself in jail or.... all the criminals knowing homeowners are armed and not breaking in in the first place? So long as everyone is equally poor you have no problem? so long as everyone looks the same and was born there you have no propblem? NO thanks.
Boy I knew the american school system was bad, but a grown man can't comprehend written text? Hmm..
Besides your logic fails. Desperate people prepare for a firefight if they know the residents may be armed. Therefore they'll be armed to the teeth which furthermore increases your chances to be shot in the progress. Greedy decisions in the society leaves some with nothing and a few with everything. The some with nothing will have to survive somehow and that somehow is mostly crime.
in a socialist country there is no point in robbing someone who has no more than you do. You don't generaly have bigotry with people who look exactly like you and speak the same language.
Rofl lazs the comment above just shows how clueless you are.
Socialism is not communism. Besides none of the european union countries are socialist. The government consists of multiple parties both right and leftwing oh, and some are in between. The fact that our level of social security and taxation is higher doesn't make the countries socialist.
Why do you keep talking about something you don't have a clue on? If your knowledge is based on urban legends, it's nothing to brag about. Sorry.
Toad: I'll repeat. The discussion about weapons was with lazs, not with you. Your doings have no relevance in the discussion. The issue was that lazs believes unregistered guns are essential for any mans well being and safety. Say it aint so..
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still waiting on a reply Saif----------;)
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Oh sorry dorne I didn't expect an answer as you already made your stance.
I'm not a big French lover myself either. Still I find the switch in opinnions funny in a surreal way. Your own government was 100% responsible for breaking the ties created during Gulf1 alliance and you somehow make France the perp with a couple days of bad press.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Toad: I'll repeat. The discussion about weapons was with lazs, not with you.
Wow, for an awesomely educated mystery man from somewhere in Darkest Europe... it would appear that there's another
grown man can't comprehend written text
in this thread.
I think, with just a tiny bit of effort, you'll be able to realize to whom my replies were addressed. (Hint, he answered me directly in this very thread.)
Now, please excuse me, I have to go develop my new shade personality for posting.
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Well excuse the dumb me but I somehow thought your comment about 'owning a gun because you're scared' was directly pointed to me and my similar comment regardless to whom you addressed your core lines to.
If you have no beef about your guns being registered, or argue about the necessity of handguns for self defence in the every day life in the U.S. why are you in the discussion to start with? :confused:
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Go away mystery country person.
You are a debate coward.
Tell us more of your great land.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Oh sorry dorne I didn't expect an answer as you already made your stance.
I'm not a big French lover myself either. Still I find the switch in opinnions funny in a surreal way. Your own government was 100% responsible for breaking the ties created during Gulf1 alliance and you somehow make France the perp with a couple days of bad press.
?--did you miss a post? or didnt you realise the french one was a joke?
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
AKsW: Well I kinda agree that in a ghetto you need a cannon, a bulletproof vest and a tank for a vehicle.
However I'd never choose to live in one. Why would you?
Sometimes you just don't have a choice.
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
I mean there must be alternatives other than responding to the threat of violence with more violence. That's anarchy, not a functional society.
There are no other alternatives to stopping that bad motherf**ker from coming through your window armed with his illegaly obtained and non-registered hand cannon.
There are three outcomes to that situation:
1) He dies.
2) You die.
3) You let your possessions get stolen, and your family killed/raped while you cower in a corner with a sharp instrument phoning the unarmed bobbies. After four or five bobbies charge him with their batons and get struck down by the massive slugs flying from the illegal and non-registered hand cannon, they finally subdue him. He's taken several people's lives, and chances are he will simply go to prison to live out the rest of his days on the people's money.
One less armed and dangerous hardened criminal on the streets vs the other two options, I'll take option #1 any day of the week.
-SW
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Heh AksW:
First of all, it's the land of the free. Nobody's obliged to live in a ghetto. According to the conservatives you're too dumb to live anyway if you're stuck there and you deserve what's coming to you. That's not my opinnion but theirs (as witnessed in several past posts.)
Second, Dowding just made the point that zero (0) bobbies were killed in duty past years regardless of the fact they don't carry weapons in bobbyland. So that kinda makes your scenario highly academic doesn't it?
I'm more likely to win in the lottery than face the situation you described to me. I don't live in a ghetto. Neither should you.
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But AKS, how do you know you're going to get your first choice - #1? How can you know that you won't get #2? When I was out with Lazs last week, we had two gun problems. One might have been my fault - a round chambered incorrectly in the .45 semi auto. The other problem occurred with the .44 magnum. When trying to fire it using the double action method (hammer not cocked) the gun simply failed to go off. We had to pull the hammer back first on every round after that. Could happen to anyone, especially if you've been stirred out of your sleep by a burglar coming through your window. In that case you would get #2, not #1. Like you said, "Sometimes you just don't have a choice."
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
was directly pointed to me
I guess you're just tho thenthative it bothered you. Or so self-centered you think every post is directed at you. Personally, I pretty much disregard your "position posts" for previously mentioned reasons.
...guns being registered, or argue... necessity of handguns... in the discussion to start with? :confused: [/B]
I'm discussing a few things with people that I enjoy engaging in discussion.
Handgun registration wouldn't stop handgun crime here in the US and it wouldn't stop it anywhere in the world. I seriously doubt if it would even significantly reduce it. Evidence? Places that have BANNED and CONFISCATED handguns still have handgun crime and in many cases the rates of handgun crime are rising despite the bans/confiscations.
See, it's like this... Cain killed Able with a rock. Note that the rock did not kill Able. Cain did.
:p
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Several hundreds, if not thousands, of US police officers have fallen to unregistered illegal fire arms.
Maybe the British criminals are less ruthless, but the ones in the US don't have anything to lose and know it.
I don't live in a ghetto anymore, but I did, land of the free grants you the ability to work your way out of a given scenario - it doesn't entitle you to anything.
I'm more likely to win in the lottery than face the situation you described to me. I don't live in a ghetto. Neither should you.
Yes, and if you live in Africa you are more likely to get AIDs than win the lottery. Its not exactly the same everywhere in the world, but I'm sure your paradise country is quite amazing. Someday I may like to visit it, if I can find it on the map of the Things that never were.
-SW
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Originally posted by beet1e
But AKS, how do you know you're going to get your first choice - #1? How can you know that you won't get #2? When I was out with Lazs last week, we had two gun problems. One might have been my fault - a round chambered incorrectly in the .45 semi auto. The other problem occurred with the .44 magnum. When trying to fire it using the double action method (hammer not cocked) the gun simply failed to go off. We had to pull the hammer back first on every round after that. Could happen to anyone, especially if you've been stirred out of your sleep by a burglar coming through your window. In that case you would get #2, not #1. Like you said, "Sometimes you just don't have a choice."
Because a shotgun is different than a pistol, a bum round can be ejected.
Either way, I'd rather have the gun to defend myself than know for certain option #2 is all I have.
-SW
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Hmm.. worrying about a gun maybe not functioning is silly... 1911's are notorious for sometimes jamming if the shooter is not gripping the gun properly (firmly) the failure to feed was the only one I have ever had with that pistol and was on the 8th (last round) hardly catastrophic... the revolver was the new dan wesson I had purchased used recently... As some may recall.... I asked if anyone familiar with that firearm knew how to adjust mainspring tension because I thought it was light on this gun.... As it turns out there is an adjustment of sorts and ater the beetle misfire I checked it out a little better... the mainspring screws into the frame and was backed out a little... 1/8" I used a locknut to adjust it back in. it was factory staked in but apparently recoil had defeated the factory staking. The gun functions flawlessly on double action as of Friday. 100 rounds.
even so... the vast majority of crimes prevented by firearms are prevented without a shot being fired.
scia... is ashamed to state his country because if is a dung hole of socialism with no opportunity and high taxes and an oppressive government.. There is no freedom in his country and he wants the same for everyone else.
Australia? they registered their guns in australia and when the goverment banned em they knew right where to go to round em all up and destroy em.... no thanks.... besides.... what is the good of registration? What good thing is accomplished by it?
lazs
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The only benefit I can see for registering handguns is to help keep them out of the hands of criminals. Doubt this would be effective but I don't mind registering anyhow. I register my car as well as myself.
If our government ever becomes so oppresive as to decide to take away my firearms I'd be more than willing to participate in establishing a new one.
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HAPPINESS IS A WARM GUN:aok