Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: gofaster on October 23, 2003, 09:39:42 AM
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... except for the huge blind spot in the back that Mustangs like to hide in. I just gotta remember to fishtail more often. And avoid engaging bombers unless I'm packing gondolas.
Bagged 3 kills in my first flight: F4u-1D, F6F, F4u4, all below 10k while they hovered around my airstrip. Reloaded and bagged a low bomber and another F6F farther away along the coastline. Airframe was pinged up with .303s from a Seafire so I landed and brought out a fresh G2.
Lost that one while strafing Lancs on the deck. Got a Lanc though, and set another one on fire, so I guess I broke even on that run.
Lost the next one running up behind a Ki bomber. Got him smoking but nothing fell off.
Lost another to a P-38 vulching the runway.
Lost my last one on climb-out to a P-51D swooping behind me in my blind spot.
I guess I should get out of the habit of upping from airfields while they're under attack. :p
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Originally posted by gofaster
I guess I should get out of the habit of upping from airfields while they're under attack. :p
It's still pretty exhilarating, though, when you can up successfully from a capped base and take down 1 or 2 enema before 15 of his friends rip you to shreds. :aok
TBolt
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the G2 is much better than the g10 and g6
as to mne experience fighting em in a p38
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109f is even better in everything but topspeed and climbrate
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And what is left, eagler?? :) ... turn radius. I would rather say that F4 is better only in maneuverablity. Everything else is better in G2.
G2 is nice when one flies with friends, but when flying alone, it is easy meat for Spits, Nikis and la-7:s.
G10 is ok if one has to be able to cope alone and also best for buff hunting :)
G2 is the best lookig though ;) :D
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I've fallen in love with the G2 as well lately, had a crush on the F4 for a while but found that the G2 gives me far more options. Engine perf. is excellent relative to maneuverability. One of those AC perfect for vertical fights, well one of the 2 best besides the p38.
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The G2 out-performs the G6 in every facet except firepower. Most people take the G6 for the 30mm option but honestly the 13mm cowl guns (vs. 7.9mm cowl guns in G2) are a bigger deal than the 30mm to me. Other than that though, the G2 climbs, accelerates, turns better and has more top speed than the G6. If you are going bomber hunting though then you really want to take more firepower in a G6 or G10, even with gondolas the G2 will have problems with a bomber formation.
I think the G2 can out-perform most people expectations of the 109's that are most typical in the MA (G6 and G10). I've beaten La7's in one quite easily in turn-fights when they under-estimate me as just "another unmaneuveable 109". I tend to feel the G2 is better in maneuverability than most people think.
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Actually Soda, it was your aircraft analysis website that got me to thinking about it. Up until then, if I took a 109 it was the G10 for interceptions and the 109F for short-range dogfighting.
For the G10, I've used the 30mm with the 20mm gondolas and 13mm cowl guns to great effect. So long as I stay fast and don't try to yank the plane around, the "gorilla package" works pretty well. The downsides, of course, are that the plane's handling is impacted negatively and the shells for each gun have a different trajectory so you're not really sure if the hits are from the 13mm, the 20mm, or the 30mm. I think the best plan is, if you're going to bring the 30mm, you might as well bring the 20mm gondolas, too, just to make sure you can hit with effect in those twisting snapshots. For bomber intercepts, the G10 or 190A8 is the plane to have.
With the G2, I'm going to stick with the single 20mm and 7.7mm's, much like I did with the F4 (though I did bring gondolas in the F4 from time to time, in case I had to engage a heavy bomber formation, but most of the bombers in AH can outrun the 109F so my opportunities were limited). I think your advice about that is pretty accurate, but I've found that having the gondolas allows me to bring home more kills with less reloading. On the other hand, getting the G2 in close so I land more shells kind of eliminates the need for more ammo.
About the best advice for the G2 is to leave the gondolas in the hangar, but bring the tracer rounds even if you're a crack shot. Spitting a few 7.7mm rounds over the escaping target's head will usually convince them to turn and allow the G2 to gain closure on the angles. The 7.7mm bullets also seem to be a bit more predictable for judging their trajectory at long ranges.
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Originally posted by Soda
I think the G2 can out-perform most people expectations of the 109's that are most typical in the MA (G6 and G10). I've beaten La7's in one quite easily in turn-fights when they under-estimate me as just "another unmaneuveable 109". I tend to feel the G2 is better in maneuverability than most people think.
Oh yeah, meant to talk about that.
You're exactly right on this. Most of the opponents I've engaged who fly LA-7s do so with the throttle wide open, bringing as much speed to the fight as they can. From what I can tell, the G2 can turn inside the radius of a high-speed LA-7, and with WEP on the G2 has the speed to take advantage of the angle and close the distance on them. I guess most people see the "109" moniker and assume its the G10. In the G2, all I do is pop off the 7.7mm tracer round from time to time to make the LA-7s turn, then I close the distance and take a shot with the 20mm. The trick is knowing when to throttle down and when to punch WEP.
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G10 is by far the best 109 IMO IF you know how to fly it, can't be flown like a G2 or F4 as they turn quite a bit better. If a G10 is flown right few things can survive a fight with it and even fewer can catch it.
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G10 is by far the best 109 IMO
No the g6 is the best 109, stick to your wuerger :p
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Originally posted by Wilbus
G10 is by far the best 109 IMO IF you know how to fly it, can't be flown like a G2 or F4 as they turn quite a bit better. If a G10 is flown right few things can survive a fight with it and even fewer can catch it.
G-10 Is my bird of choice
She is fast has massive fire power what else would you want?
Oh you must watch for the compression though LOL.
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Originally posted by gofaster
... except for the huge blind spot in the back that Mustangs like to hide in. I just gotta remember to fishtail more often. And avoid engaging bombers unless I'm packing gondolas.
Bagged 3 kills in my first flight: F4u-1D, F6F, F4u4, all below 10k while they hovered around my airstrip. Reloaded and bagged a low bomber and another F6F farther away along the coastline. Airframe was pinged up with .303s from a Seafire so I landed and brought out a fresh G2.
Lost that one while strafing Lancs on the deck. Got a Lanc though, and set another one on fire, so I guess I broke even on that run.
Lost the next one running up behind a Ki bomber. Got him smoking but nothing fell off.
Lost another to a P-38 vulching the runway.
Lost my last one on climb-out to a P-51D swooping behind me in my blind spot.
I guess I should get out of the habit of upping from airfields while they're under attack. :p
You ever engage in air to air combat. Your kills could have been done in anything with guns
ATC
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g2 is the best 109..
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gofaster, I like your interpretation of the G10... it's the "gorilla package" and as an interceptor style fighter (against bombers) it is the best. It tops out the firepower and engine performance but the penalties in handling are very dramatic in most speed ranges. That's the thing too, the G10 can still be nimble but only in a very small range of speeds, too slow and you are in trouble, too fast and you are move danger to yourself than the enemy. Most of the better G10 pilots are pretty experienced guys and know how to stay within the tight boundaries the G10 imposes in handling...
The gondolas offer a much better snapshot on the G2, I tend to get more kills but I also tend to land fewer, at least that's what I notice. As soon as you have to mix it up in tighter corners with gondolas you are in trouble unless you can get out before too long. The G2 doesn't need the gondolas though, it can lock onto aircraft and hit them with 20mm, so the snapshot isn't the only trick in the bag for it.
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The G10 is far and away the "best" 109. A spit IX will tear the 109G2/G6/F4 apart... it can't catch a G10 so it can't tear it apart.
If you are really really good in the G10 you might even be able to kill a Spit 9 that knows you are there. Assuming he is a newbie.
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Originally posted by Urchin
The G10 is far and away the "best" 109. A spit IX will tear the 109G2/G6/F4 apart... it can't catch a G10 so it can't tear it apart.
If you are really really good in the G10 you might even be able to kill a Spit 9 that knows you are there. Assuming he is a newbie.
spit9 chew F4 apart sure if it is a good pilot but the chances the person in a spit is a good pilot is 1/100 from my expirence just kick in that elevator trim and watch them try to turn and turn and turn while get on there 6 and blast em. i find it can out turn spit9 cause most spit 9 pilots leave combat trim on
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I find 1 v 1 that the Spit 9 can be outflown by the G2 provided that you keep the fight fairly low. The trick is to equalize e sates and then use the G2 superior hig speed climb power to gain vertical seperation and turn tables.
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stick to your wuerger
Good idea, it beats anything.
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Urchin:
A spit IX will tear the 109G2/G6/F4 apart... it can't catch a G10
The Spit IX can't even catch an 109F4, 332mph vs 319mph. The 109F4 even out-accelerates the Spit IX at most altitudes according to the AH test data I've got. Sure, the margin to the G10 is much larger but even an F4, given a smart pilot, can leave a SpitIX and extend. A diving Spit can catch any 109, or anything else for that matter, so that's not worth talking about.
Know what's a great fight for a 109G2 is, the La5FN. Had some of my best ever fights in the CT with that combo.
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190A5-La5FN is hard work but a very fun fight also.
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Originally posted by Soda
The Spit IX can't even catch an 109F4, 332mph vs 319mph. The 109F4 even out-accelerates the Spit IX at most altitudes according to the AH test data I've got. Sure, the margin to the G10 is much larger but even an F4, given a smart pilot, can leave a SpitIX and extend. A diving Spit can catch any 109, or anything else for that matter, so that's not worth talking about.
Know what's a great fight for a 109G2 is, the La5FN. Had some of my best ever fights in the CT with that combo.
Soda,
do those ground level speeds match historical data? Its really strange that a MkIX cannot catch an F4. BTW, the MkIX maneuverability at very high speed is .... weird. The compressibility of our 109 family at high speed is weird as well.
HTC should give a deeper look at them.
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Ive been caught and outmanouvered by SpitIX several times while doing a 262 with a ludicrous speed.
I could never believe a spit would get me after a full power dive with 262 (start speed 300knots), blacked out turn and extend to vertical.. But it followed me with no effort at all and hizookaed me down. Later inspection on film showed that the spit didn't compress or even black out following me judging from the way he was able to follow me. A spit ix with a 5k alt advantage could catch an F-15 with full afterburn in AH.
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do those ground level speeds match historical data?
I have no idea but that wasn't the topic of this thread anyway. We weren't comparing modeling accuracy, we were comparing AH aircraft as modeled (right or wrong doesn't matter). Questioning the modeling is a topic for another thread.
The Spit IX can easily catch a 109F4 at high altitudes, but most fights with Spits start near the ground, or end up blowing lots of alt early and get near the ground quickly.
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Not to mention that we have an early IX which apparently is a mid-high altitude variant.
After a year of sporadic AH I'm flying the G-10 frequently with 30mm, no gondolas. Hard work but challenging fun. Funny that my K/D with it is less than half of what my usual early-mid war planes will yield... so I'll stick to 109's for a while.
To come back to the G-2, after flying the G-10 quite a lot I find it a lot easier to kill with it. 1 20mm is not much but if you can bring yourself in position for a high quality shot it works. And this is much easier in the G-2 than it is in the G-10 due to a cannon which is easier to aim and a more maneuverable airplane.
As for the Spit IX - G2 debate, I'll rather fly a G-2 if I find someone with a comparable skill to my own.
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Yea, I find SpitIX vs G2 fights interesting as they have pronounced differences in handling and performance, within limits.
It's a matter of knowing your plane and your opponents plane.
A fight between a G10 and Hurri could ofcourse also be fun, but the differences in performance and handling, IMO, is not "within limits".
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I like the G10 and the F4. I fly alone a lot, and the G6 is easy prey for Spit IX, especially on a map like Fester's Vulcherama™, where it's easy for the Spit you just killed to reappear 2 minutes later from the field next door. :rolleyes:
Some of you say the G10 is good against buffs. I've killed buffs with the gondolas. The problem for the 109 (especially with the spud cannon) is having to get so damn close. Given that the buff gunner will be plinking you at 1400 yards, closing to less than 200 yards is a very risky business. You're going to die a lot doing that.
Alternatively, you can approach from the side as I did in this short (1:40min) film (http://www.zen33071.zen.co.uk/109g10vspit.zip). If you look at the film, you see that I landed more than one hit on the tail of a B17 coming at him from his 2 o'clock. The effect? Nothing. I got a Spit soon afterwards - but you have to get close with the spud cannon - I try for less than 200 yards as with this kill. Having to get that close means fewer opportunities. Snap shots are all but impossible. If anyone knows different, let's see the film.
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I've found that most Spit IX pilots will use the same tactic - turn as hard as they can with the throttle wide open. In this situation, the G2 will gain an advantage if it uses WEP to climb above the Spit IX's loop and stay topside. Since the Spit pilot is yanking so hard, he's bleeding his energy and will have trouble bringing his nose up for the next merge. Of course, if you've misjudged his speed, he'll be in a position for a tail shot on the G2.
A lot of pilots instantly think the G2 is the G10 and expect it to zoom away. By going with a nose-hi yoyo turn, I've gotten inside the turn radius when the Spit pilot had gotten complacent and wasn't expecting me to be high and behind him. The difficult part is that the prop torque will twist the nose around so its hard to line up a shot.
A G2 will own a P-51 in a high-speed turnfight, no problem. Same with Corsairs. I would've had a couple of them last night but I got combo'd by Stangs/N1ks and then Corsairs/LA-7s. P-38s can be a little trickier if the Lightning pilot knows his business, or if the P-38 is being used for jabo work.
I learned a hard lesson that the G2 should not be used as a bomber buster against B-17s.
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Originally posted by ATC
You ever engage in air to air combat. Your kills could have been done in anything with guns
ATC
Yeah, actually the Navy kills were A2A. The Corsairs and Hellcats had altitude on me and went in over my head at high speed, pickled their ordinance, then climbed away. I dueled them outside of the airfield flak range, over the water and beaches. The F4U-4 fight was particularly hairy since he was flying a perk ride. He was more aggressive in the engagement since he had perk points on the line.
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G-10 is one of my fav's. Would love to see the G-14 or K4 (very similar aircraft) modeled in this game.
Agreed on the G-10, don't turn with it. The G-2 is better but I still don't like using it for knife fights, it tends to get me in trouble.
Like I don't do that on my own anyway.
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wierd thing happened sat. was in fight with spit9 i just put a little bit of leftward rudder and started turning like a spit9 but losing alt like crazy. the spit9 without a doubt is one of the best planes in AH just that noone knows to use manual trim that is why so many die.
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Originally posted by B17Skull12
wierd thing happened sat. was in fight with spit9 i just put a little bit of leftward rudder and started turning like a spit9 but losing alt like crazy. the spit9 without a doubt is one of the best planes in AH just that noone knows to use manual trim that is why so many die.
With your phenomenal k/d ratio this tour of 0.35, your impressive k/d against the spit 9 this tour of 13:35 and your even more impressive total of 0 kills in the Bf109G2, ever, you are the perfect person to instruct others in this thread.
I suggest, newbie, that you read and learn rather than try to teach what you don't know.
BTW Trim gives no performance advantage in AH, that is a fact that has been stated by HTC in the game help pages.
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Don't go too hard on 'im , Mako m8 ! :D
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i my self dont like G2's i never fly them i prefer the late war german planes over them. flew it once seemed to be mix between F4 with worse turn but more powerful engine than it. rather nice plane if you pratice it cause ive seen the way camo and llv34 work magic with it. btw dont know why but mako everyone says that trim can make the difference in the 262 can you prove this. heard that from Wilbuz, Wldthing, and Fester so maybe it is a question of trim can make a difference but in which planes?
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Originally posted by B17Skull12
btw dont know why but mako everyone says that trim can make the difference in the 262 can you prove this. heard that from Wilbuz, Wldthing, and Fester so maybe it is a question of trim can make a difference but in which planes?
It's a placebo. The only time manual trim is an advantage is to get you out of compression.
This is taken from the AH Help section on the HTC web site. I already told you where to find it but as you haven't bothered looking I'll post it here so you can't say you couldn't find it.
I also put the important bit in red and bold for the hard-of-understanding.
AH Help on combat trim
Combat Trim in Aces High
Use Ctrl-X to toggle the combat trim on and off.
Touching manual trim will always turn it off.
Under the Flight button in Setup you can set whether you want combat trim to always be on or off when coming out of existing auto pilot mode.
This piece was written by Hitech to explain combat trim in Aces High.
The first thing to understand about trim is that there is no way possible to make it work like a real plane. The joystick interaction with the controls is a completely different mechanical setup.
In a real plane you would be holding the stick back to maintain level flight. You would then turn the trim knob to relieve any pressure on the stick, without the stick moving. With a computer joystick, this simply isn't possible. When you let go of the stick it will always go back to center. Even force feedback sticks do not have the ability of adjusting stick spring center.
The second problem is stick feel. When Pyro and I originally did some early models for CK we tried setting real settings for elevator deflection. For example, the spit's stick setup is capable of generating about 38 degress AOA, and the plane stalls at around 17 degs AOA. This would equate to pulling the stick less than halfway back and that would stall the plane.
Now from a purely mathematical realistic point of view, thatÂ’s the way the plane was set up so it should be the same in the sim. But if you step back and look at things another way, what did the plane feel like to fly and does it "FEEL" realistic when things change? When flying a real aircraft I sense very little stick movement. I perceive much more on how hard I'm pulling, how much I'm grunting, how much the stick is vibrating, than how much IÂ’m moving the stick.
To accomplish some of this we use the stall horn, now the stall horn is NOT realistic by any means, but some method is needed to give you the same realistic feed back from the plane that you get in real life. Therefore, you are forced to choose a method that works and gives the perception of reality. We chose to setup controls that will let you stall with full stick deflection unless you are limited by control force.
Now comes the trim problem. At slower speeds, where do you scale the stick movement from and how do you add in trim?
The method we have been using was to always give you x degrees of elevator travel than just add that degree to the current trim degree. This leads to problems if you are slow with nose down trim, you could no longer pull the plane to the edge of stall. This isn't how real planes fly in the slower flight envelope. Very few planes could you not generate enough stick force to pull into stall at slower speeds. This oversight is why people use trim in a slower turn fight and hence get an advantage by giving more up trim at slower speeds.
Under 1.04 we have changed the control setup slightly. We now scale the elevator/stick deflection to the same ending angle no matter where the trim tab is positioned.
There is another misconception that trimming your plane perfectly gives you a flight advantage. Trimming your plane or just holding controls and pressing rudder to center the ball is exactly the same thing, and the plane will fly the same under both methods.
Now on to how the combat trim works. The best way to describe how it works is to take your plane and trim it constantly in a dive from slow speed to high speed. Now make a table of trim positions at all speeds. All the combat trim system does is use this table to set the trims based on your speed. Everything else still functions the same; you pull back on the stick you still get adverse yaw, you turn you still will need to add in rudder. You change throttle settings the plane still rolls due to torque. Add flaps trim settings will be completely different and the system won't account for it. Drop gear you will again be out of trim. If youÂ’re climbing or diving your plane is still out of trim. In the end, all the combat trim system does is keep you in a trim envelope that you can override with normal controls.
Use Ctrl-X to toggle the combat trim on and off. Touching manual trim will always turn it off. Under the Flight button in Setup you can set whether you want combat trim to always be on or off when coming out of existing auto pilot mode.
Now as to are we loosing sight of pleasing the realism crowd? That is for you to judge.
At the same time we are adding combat trim, we are also adding things like icons now disappear if an enemy plane is behind a canopy rail, under wings, on your low 6, behind hills or under the nose, etc.
We have spent alot of time researching and changing pieces of the flight model that were not hitting real world numbers. Now these changes really won't affect the "GAME" much, they will change tactics used. Things like horizontal to vertical transitions will be much more effective. Things like lead turns will be more effective because after a 180-deg turn you will have more speed left to take the shot on the b&z bogie. But in the end, neither combat trim nor the flight model affects the game play in any way. It's still who can fly the plane to the edge, knows ACM best, who knows his planes abilities vs. his opponents, who can shoot well, who can choose his fights or which plane to shoot first. All these things still make the best pilots what they are.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Don't go too hard on 'im , Mako m8 ! :D
Just adding some chlorine to the gene pool in here Kwe. ;)
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That is not entirely true Blue Mako. I always trim manually in the 109. Let's say I'm in medium compression and cannot pull/push more than 3 G's. I trim the nose up approx. 2 G's and keep a constant forward pressure on the stick to keep level flight. Now I have -1 / +5 G instead of -3 /+3, much more useful in combat. This is something the LW pilots actually did.
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Read the above post Gscholz. I'm sure that Hitech knows how he programmed his own sim...
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Call me an idiot but the way Gscholz describes it WORKS. Still not a wizard with trim myself but slowly learning in 109's.
It might be true that max deflection is the same no matter how much trim you've got but why can I use trim then to recover from high speed dives? If just pulling the stick to its max deflection would yield the same effect? In this case I would never be able to pull out from 500mph dives in a 109 no matter what my trim settings were, so the manual trim would be useless in a situation like that. It isn't.
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Hi Hogenbor,
We dont deal with RL stick controll forces in AH.
In high speed dive you can pull your joystick fully back but your virtualstick is sitting in cement.
Trim tabs are still usefull because trims are geared.
It wouldbe interesting to see which MA planes are in top ten if we need to deal RL stick forces.
Spits(?) had very light finger tip pitch controll force but roll needed much more controll force. 190 was famous concerning excelent balance of the controll force.
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It wouldbe interesting to see which MA planes are in top ten if we need to deal RL stick forces.
I wonder what AH pilots would be in the top ten if we were subject to RL G-forces... ;)
naaaaah, I'm just trying to be a smartprettythang
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Xjazz, maybe it was not clear from my post but I know that's the way high stick forces are modelled.
I a previous post it was stated that it doesn't matter how you apply control input (by stick or trim) because the effect is the same according to Hitech.
Point is, at high speed the game does not allow you to give control input via the stick in a 109, trim does.
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Originally posted by Blue Mako
Read the above post Gscholz. I'm sure that Hitech knows how he programmed his own sim...
I'm sure he does, but I'm not sure you're reading him right. In a slow speed fight trimming makes no difference, however in a high speed fight the 109 is unable to reach maximum deflection of the controls because of compression. In this case trimming does give you an advantage. In high speed fights the 109 elevators for instance are unable to reach the "ending angle" HiTech talks about.
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What HT is saying is that whenever there is any deflection of the controls due to stick movement, trim does not offer any change to the final position of the controls, regardless of speed. What you are talking about is outside the range of normal control where there is no deflection due to control stick movement. Manual trimming is required to get out of this condition, however, as soon as your controls begin to work again, there is no difference in the position of your control surfaces for any given stick position with trim set. When your controls no longer operate, CT is not hindering or helping, it is just keeping the plane trimmed for the current condition, that's why manual trim is required to pull out of a compressed dive.
HT is basically saying that if you trim your plane nose up, it will take you less back stick deflection to get to your maximum elev deflection and more forward stick deflection to maintain level flight. However, in the end the scaling means that if you pull your j/s right back you will reach the same final elev deflection angle (as HT said "We now scale the elevator/stick deflection to the same ending angle no matter where the trim tab is positioned.") regardless of trim setting and aircraft speed.
P.S. Note that in my original reply I said "The only time manual trim is an advantage is to get you out of compression." I acknowledged that there is one area of the flight regime where MT is needed. :)
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Back to the topic before this thread got interrupted by a Combat Trim discussion.
Has anyone compaired the C205 vs. G-2? I have found this to be an equally good matchup like Soda mentioned with the La-5.
It is good to know there are so many secret G-2 lovers around. I fly it usually alone since none of the people in my flying circle like to fly LW planes. It is easier to get someone to fly a P-47 than a 109. If I have to choose a 109, I usually choose a G-2, then a G-10, then a F-4 and almost never a G-6. Never take gondolas except for the F-4 and G-10 buff hunting.
I remember flying in the CT not too long ago when the Finland map was up, it seemed to be easy to turn with the La-5's and even Yaks. I did not notice much of a difference at all in turning ability, and engaged with no hesitation almost any fight.
In the MA, I find that I have trouble avoiding the La-7/Spit type combos. The faster planes can run you down, and the slower planes can then defeat you, but this is common to lots of plane types.
I wouldn't know, but I think I just came out of the closet. Yes, I'm a G-2 lover! Lets leave it at that.
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No, I'm talking about when the plane is compressed, but not completely unresponsive. I'm sure you're aware that planes don't just hit compression like it was a wall, it's a gradual process as speed increases beyond a certain point. Try this: Grab a 109 or a Zeke or any other plane that's prone to compression. Grab some alt and start accelerating in a shallow dive. As compression starts to set in pull back on the controls to find out how many G's you can pull. Then trim the nose up and watch as the plane climbs faster and faster with the stick pulled back. When the 109G10 hits about 500 mph it starts to compress, and without trimming you cannot pull more than 4 to 5 G's, trim up and you'll do blackout turns with ease. It works I guarantee it, because a use it every time I fly in AH.
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GS,
Compression results from the hinge moments of the control surfaces (ie. the control forces) becoming too great to overcome by stick force alone. Trimming a control surface changes the hinge moment, thus changing the stick forces. As I stated above, the advantages of manually trimming are only found in the compression region where this is an issue. No doubt HT have modelled a cut-off point where the stick forces would be too great without trimming to move the controls, giving the compression effects.
The common misconception that I was originally refuting was that manually trimming for a normal turning fight outside of the compression region gives an advantage over combat trim, which it does not.
Sorry I missed in your original comment that you were talking about the compression region.
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Compression is actually the formation of local supersonic airflow over the controls which had negative and often not understood effects (P-38 for instance had a nasty tendency to nose over in a death dive). In AH compression is AFAIK just modelled as increased stick force. Although I understand that the FM changes are made for every plane due to programming considerations a few planes were able to trim beyond the otherwise maximum deflection of the controls. The 109 for instance moved the entire horizontal stabiliser as trim, naturally increasing the effective maximum deflection of the elevators mounted on the stabiliser. This is a minor detail however as I always seem to be able to pull that damn thing into a stall in slow fights. ;)
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Originally posted by GScholz
Compression is actually the formation of local supersonic airflow over the...
Yup. This leads to the control forces being too large for the pilot to overcome. I was just trying to keep it simple, I've done several years of study to get my degree on this stuff... ;)