Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Chaos68 on October 23, 2003, 03:25:12 PM
-
Im doing a career change. Im going to go to Michigan Institute of aeronautics.
http://www.mioa.com
in 19 months i will be able to work on airplanes/helli. I'll have my airframe and powerplant.
im excited, anyone else in the field of aeronautics/tech?
-
Chaos,
I just finished a program similar to that last March. It took me 15 months for my A&P. :)
Are you going there because of the location or reputation? Just curious is all. In state at Cochise College for the program is about $11 or 12k after the tuition hikes last year.
Are you going to have an A&P when you walk out the door?
-
I am an A&P, been one for 25 years. Never been unemployed in those years, but it's been close a couple times. The airplane in my avatar is an N3N-3 I work on for fun.
dago
-
Originally posted by Maverick
Chaos,
I just finished a program similar to that last March. It took me 15 months for my A&P. :)
Are you going there because of the location or reputation? Just curious is all. In state at Cochise College for the program is about $11 or 12k after the tuition hikes last year.
Are you going to have an A&P when you walk out the door?
im going because of both rep and location, its only 15 minutes from my house and its FAA approved plus ive heard nothing but good things about them.
and yes i will have my A&P when i walk out the door.
-
I say go learn on the job, thats what I did instead of "paying" someone to teach me, I got paid while I learned. I have worked both ends of the aviation spectrum from airlines and civil to warbirds. Now, I run a small warbird restoration shop. It's fun, and I look forward to going to work everyday.
:D
-
i would love to restore old warbirds! :aok
i'm paying someone to teach me because i want to learn and i dont mind paying someone to teach me how to do a job.
the class is 50/50 50% in the classroom then the last 50% or the day is spent in the hanger working on what you learned about in class.
-
Just got my A+P this past February, used the experience I got in the military and just took the tests. I still have about 7 months left in the military, but I'm looking forward to getting into the civilian sector and putting the license to work.
-
Chaos,
Don't figure on getting the really peach jobs until you have a couple or 3 years of experiance. Try to go somewhere that will give you a broad base of experiance, not just stick you in one area such as hydraulics or sheetmetal. It will make you more salable later on when you try to hook a major employer.
Start looking at the tool catalogues and figure what you might need in addition to the minor list the school requires. Some of what you might think of as minor tools like an aviation spark plug socket can be pretty pricey. (almost $30.00) If you need to get safety wire pliers look for a 6" set with reversible twist. They'll set you back about $85.00 but do make life easier! Aircraft Tool Supply Company will send you a free catalog. You can see their adds in Trade-a-plane. Before you graduate I'd get a subscription to that publication since it's cheap for once a month delivery and has TONS of good adds and ideas for you to look over.
-
thanks maverick! im going in knowing i wont make good money for a few years because of experience. I buy all my tools from the school that i will need (around $3200 worth of tools). But i will take get Trade-a-plane.
-
Chaos, some things jumped out at me that you said and you need to at least be aware of.
First off, the most important thing to get a job is the Airmans Certificate, period. Whether you get your A&P at Joe's Aircraft Mechanic School, military and hands-on credited experience, or Embry-Riddle, the bottom line is you will be licensed. I'm sure you'll get a kirby sales pitch from a school that says having them on your resume is an instant job, or an edge on the competition. That's their recruiters job, but I'm not so sure.
I fell for it with Spartan School of Aeronautics. $12-14 grand in 1985 mind you for their "name" but they just teach whats the FAA requires, just like everyone else. And when you graduate you are completely clueless so who cares. Don't quote me but some community colleges might offer every thing you need to get your certificate for over $5 G's less. From what I heard, way more than that... but if it's 15 minutes away, it might be good if you have pell grants and can afford it.
Also, tools. I'm sure the school will want to sell you tools! At Spartan they even tried to make money on breakfast biscuts, so Im sure raking in a few hundred on tools is part of their biznus. Go to a flea market for gads sake. Get a list of what they require, shop and compare at Sears, and then flee market or garage sale the rest. I used to keep gas in the Snap-on truck till I realized the only high priced stuff you need for tools is sockets and racheting screw drivers. The sockets grab those damn near rounded off nuts when a cheaper brand won't.
You'll be done in 18 months but go for the hoopty degree, a 2 or 3 month addition that pads the resume with some math courses, and I think by then the industry will be thriving.
-
Ih have a BSAE
-
how does one get a A&P licsence? Anyway to do it from home? Im currently going to a 141 flight school, Im kindof interested in getting one if it dont cost me a whole lot of money.
FBsmokey
-
Anyway to do it from home?
Nope.
Would you want someone with a mail order A&P fixing your aircraft?
The A&P license is one of the hardest to get believe it or not, involves the most time and effort.
dago
-
Originally posted by Creamo
Chaos, some things jumped out at me that you said and you need to at least be aware of.
First off, the most important thing to get a job is the Airmans Certificate, period. Whether you get your A&P at Joe's Aircraft Mechanic School, military and hands-on credited experience, or Embry-Riddle, the bottom line is you will be licensed. I'm sure you'll get a kirby sales pitch from a school that says having them on your resume is an instant job, or an edge on the competition. That's their recruiters job, but I'm not so sure.
I fell for it with Spartan School of Aeronautics. $12-14 grand in 1985 mind you for their "name" but they just teach whats the FAA requires, just like everyone else. And when you graduate you are completely clueless so who cares. Don't quote me but some community colleges might offer every thing you need to get your certificate for over $5 G's less. From what I heard, way more than that... but if it's 15 minutes away, it might be good if you have pell grants and can afford it.
Also, tools. I'm sure the school will want to sell you tools! At Spartan they even tried to make money on breakfast biscuts, so Im sure raking in a few hundred on tools is part of their biznus. Go to a flea market for gads sake. Get a list of what they require, shop and compare at Sears, and then flee market or garage sale the rest. I used to keep gas in the Snap-on truck till I realized the only high priced stuff you need for tools is sockets and racheting screw drivers. The sockets grab those damn near rounded off nuts when a cheaper brand won't.
You'll be done in 18 months but go for the hoopty degree, a 2 or 3 month addition that pads the resume with some math courses, and I think by then the industry will be thriving.
With the exception of actually shelling out a bunch of big bucks for school I agree whole heartedly with Creamo on this.... which makes me very nervous. :D
Be careful where you spend your money. It is rediculous to waste it, when the end all result is the certificate. But, if you feel you absolutely need to spend that mopney, make sure you get the degree. Padding the resume never hurts.
As for tools, I own a massive variety of both hiprice, and sears craftsman series, but DO NOT fall for the BS school sales on tools. Way back when when I first went to a trade school for commercial diving, I spent money on "their" HAVE TO HAVE tools. Well it included a stupid $4500 C diver Watch and the like, anyways, it was just a scam to get a few more bucks outta me...
Be careful, be smart, and remember, you can buy a tool any day of the week, there are never deals that will not be repeated.
:aok
-
thanks guys this is the stuff i need!
The teacher gave me a list of all the tools i will need. (unless i want to buy a "set from the school") At my job now i see mister snap-on tool man alot and he said he could get me 80% of the tools for cheeper then the school and surounding stores (ive knowned him for 8 years now).
Im going to this school because it close the next closest school like this is over 2 hours away. I am aplying for all the grants i can get, im first aplying for the pell grant.
thanks guys i need this info.. :aok
-
Originally posted by Dago
The A&P license is one of the hardest to get believe it or not, involves the most time and effort.
dago
im going for 19 months monday- friday everyweekday for 19 months plus holding a full time job ontop of that.....its going to be hard not including what i will have to learn. but i am willing to learn and if im shelling out *cough*cough* 20k i better learn something!
-
I know the local community college here has offered the complete course for several years of not a decade. Tarrant College..
http://www.tcjc.cc.tx.us/programs/newdp.asp?dpid=122
http://www.tcjc.cc.tx.us/programs/newdp.asp?dpid=134
http://www.tcjc.cc.tx.us/programs/newdp.asp?dpid=135
http://www.tcjc.cc.tx.us/programs/newdp.asp?dpid=136
these look any good to people in the know?
-
OH COD!!! For once i'm going to agree with Creamo!!! The freaking world is gonna END DAMN SOON NOW!!!!!!!!AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH HHHHHHHHHH
Thanks I feel better.
For most of what you need to do in school Sears can supply you with almost all you need. Get what you can with as little money spent but do TRY to get some quality there as well. A sears 1/4" 12 point socket set will do fine until you need a set of universal sockets or offset wrenches. Get them from MAC or Snapon. Aircraft tool supply has the aircraft specific tool slike wire twisters and riveting equipment.
Mia389. You can get an A&P about 2 ways.
Get on the job experiance working in a shop and log all you hours and specific jobs in a book to show the FAA. Military work and training counts here as well. It amounts to about 3 years of work experiance. This is in both airframe and powerplant. There are a minimum number of hours of work for experiance required for each. If you have enough they clear you to take the written tests, 3 of them, general, airframe and powerplant. Then after passing them you get individually tested (called orals and practicals) by a designated examiner who tests you and watches you perform a certain number of tasks in each area of A&P. If you pass this then you are granted an A&P.
You can go to school like the ones listed above in the thread. Make darn sure it is recognised by the FAA. Some give you the school but you still haave to go out and get the 3 years of practical work experiance and do the same as th straight OJT guy did.
If the school is certified by the FAA you do all of the O's and P's there and walk out with the certificate. The school is usually authorized to give the tests on campus and has DME's (designated mechanic examiners) on staff. If the school does not have computerized test authorization that can be found all around the nation wherever flight written tests are given. (CATS I believe).
Schools vary on the amount of time it takes, 15 months being the shortest. The average is 18 I think. The cost varies tremendously. Shop wisely as the closest school may be the most expensive. I believe Cochise College is still the cheapest in the US at about $11,000.00 total instate tuition not including dorm. The campus is right on the border with Mexico and out in the middle of nowhere. There ain't much to do unfortunately. Agua Prieta is nice once but not that friendly. The nearest larger town is Sierra Vista and the nearest big city is Tucson 2 hours away by car.
Do this help ya any?
-
Yes Maverick , Thanks a bunch. Thats what I was looking for. How it all worked. One question though. How do you log hours in a hangar if your not a A&P. I thought only A&Ps could work on planes. Any of this be in the Far/Aim? I love systems and shiit, and am very mechanicaly inclined, but spending 11,000 dollars for training on a simple airplane , might not be for me. The 45 grand I took for my flight school is gonna set me back to much as it is. Might be something when I start instructing I might wanna do though. I doubt Ill get alot of hours instructing and might have time to go school.
-
Originally posted by mia389
Yes Maverick , Thanks a bunch. Thats what I was looking for. How it all worked. One question though. How do you log hours in a hangar if your not a A&P. I thought only A&Ps could work on planes. Any of this be in the Far/Aim? I love systems and shiit, and am very mechanicaly inclined, but spending 11,000 dollars for training on a simple airplane , might not be for me. The 45 grand I took for my flight school is gonna set me back to much as it is. Might be something when I start instructing I might wanna do though. I doubt Ill get alot of hours instructing and might have time to go school.
Mia,
You work under the authorization of the shop you were hired by. If it is an FBO you are supervised by an A&P or an A&P IA who signs off your work. It's actually quite common. I worked for a bit over 6 months for an independant IA before I decided to go to school. Now I contract with him as in independant A&P. I was not willing to do the 3 year bit but the experiance I had made A&P classes quite a bit easier than for the others. I ended up being a adjunct instructor a few times when the main instructor was swamped, :)
As to the log, you can buy a mechanics log book at some avaiation supply houses. You list all that you have done and the specific components you worked on. Keep a seperate tally of the actual hours by category (af or Power plant) and make sure you cover all the bases. The FAR's do have info for this but I don't have mine with me right now. A call to your local FSDO can point you to the specific requirements by reg and who does the testing and so on in your area.
-
Thanks mav
-
As Maverick says you work under authorisation from an A&P. Depite what many think you don't have to know anything about aircraft to work on them as long as your work is checked by a qualified certified individual. The system works though and as you will no doubt soon find out, it's all about paperwork and documentation as much as practical work. The saying is that an aircraft cannot fly unless the weight of the paperwork equals the weight of the actual aircraft
Another thing to remember about tools is that no matter how expensive they are you never engrave your name on them. Just in case you leave one behind in a wing or something it jams the controls and brings down the aircraft. It happens more often than you think:eek:
Interesting I read lately that many newly qualified A & P's are head hunted as technicians by high technology companies because of the skill set available. They pay a lot better than many aviation jobs too. The sad truth about aviation is that it doesn't pay that well and is very insecure. Having said that, there is nothing quite like working around aircraft. My brother is a Aircraft Engineer as A & P's are called here and although he complains about it and he easily could get a better paid more secure job. He won't give it up. He told me that the first time he bolted a wing back onto an aeroplane and then watched it fly away was one of the scariest moments in his life. You won't get that buzz in a electronics plant.
-
Interesting I read lately that many newly qualified A & P's are head hunted as technicians by high technology companies because of the skill set available.
That one should be on SNOPES as I have heard it many times but you will find it difficult to find anyone who has been actually recruited.
Anyone trying to get his A&P license throught the experience route would be well advised as mentioned earlier to keep a log of all the procedures he has performed, and who supervised them. The more documentation you can provide, the better the chances are you will be approved to take the tests.
Oddly enough, the FARS regarding the experience route do not specify any minimum amount of hours of experience, only months, and don't even address whether you work full time, part time or one day a week maintaining aircraft.
BTW, as far as working under supervision, that isn't required on aircraft certificated in the Experimental category. Anyone can work on an Experimental category aircraft.
I wish new A&Ps well with their career choice, but it is one I would hesitate to recommend and would give serious thought to doing it again if I had to start over. There are literally thousands of A&Ps out of work right now with the aviation industry suffering as rarely before in the economic climate of today.
dago
-
Dago,
One of the main characteristics of aviation is that it is a very cyclical beast. It's up, it's down. It all depends on where the world is ant the time. If you are really interested in the job field you learn to deal with it. Certainly no one is going to expect to get rich being an A&P.
The old saw about, how to make a small fortune in aviation, start with 2 large ones, is pretty true. For those of us who love general aviation and warbirds, it's a labor of love not a way to make the big bucks. You can be comfortable if you have a good reputation for doing quality work without ripping people off.
The majors will get back to hiring soon as passenger travel builds. There are only so many in the field and the jobs will have to be filled.
-
i heard that cargo flight is the way to go now, companys like FedEx, UPS, USPS..etc.... Because they are hirering more unlike Northwest (which has a freeze because there in trubble). But i heard people are buying more online which means things need to be flown in more. I'm not sure because im not in that field yet. :D
i not going into it expecting to make bookoo money, i love airplanes and this job cought my eye.
-
One of the main characteristics of aviation is that it is a very cyclical beast. It's up, it's down. It all depends on where the world is ant the time. If you are really interested in the job field you learn to deal with it. Certainly no one is going to expect to get rich being an A&P.
Thanks for sharing that with me Maverick, having spent the last 25 years+ working as an A&P full time, I haven't learned anything and didn't understand anything about it. (have worked in GA, Corporate, Overseas, Major Airline, and also work on some Antique/Classic/Warbird types on the side).
Here is an interesting fact about A&Ps, on average they only stay in the industry as mechanics for 17 years. It has become very common for them to accept other jobs that offer better stability, income, working conditions and less liability.
Don't get me wrong, I like being an A&P, being able to fix aircraft, enjoying the feeling of satisfaction that I get from doing a job well, being able to troubleshoot a problem and come up with the proper repair. BUT, if I had it to do over again, I would have spent the time and money and been a pilot for a career. Conditions are better, pay is better, job is more interesting and the chicks dig pilots more than the perceived greasy mechanic.
dago
-
i'm taking my test today (just to see if i can get in the program) at 5:30pm.
I know i will pass the test, im more scared because i dont know whats on the test. :p