Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: F4i on October 26, 2003, 02:44:37 AM
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I'm gonna get ripped for this, but I want to put this out there, anyway.
I remember (many years ago) when I first posted on the Air Warrior BB how I would love to see a Vietnam-era air combat sim; the people on the BB ranted both for and against the idea. :rolleyes: Man, what a mess that started.
Now, though, I find myself wanting the chance to jump into a virtual F-14 Tomcat or F/A-18 Hornet with a squaddie in the back seat as my RIO. And, I honestly think that Hitech Creations is the right company to make this kind of thing happen ONLINE.
I don't know which era (or, military conflict) would be the best fit, but I would LOVE to see HTC give it a shot after AH2 is in full swing.
Please, hitech. :aok
TBolt
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Before you catch hell I would like to say that Ive thought the same myself at times. I dont know what era would provide the most fun but I would guess the farther into the heat seeking age you got the less fun it would be. Maybe, maybe not . A HTC modelled F-86 and Mig-15 would be a blast Im sure.
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There was a company that started this, even got into beta. I remember seeing screenshots when combatsim.com was still free. Heard nothing of it after that, like with FighterDuel III (or II?) Many good ideas die in the simming world.
I don't see (or wish) that any online WWII sims will rival AH in the forseeable future, but maybe Targetware with their open approach will make it possible for a Vietnam era online sim. I have a feeling that targeting systems and missiles is hard to model in large scale in an online sim.
But as I've said before, what do I know?!
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What I know that WarBirds are planning to enter Jet are with Korean war
They allready have F-86 - need MiG - 15
and HTC!!!!! If WB do it I return to WB :D and I think a lot of players will do the same.
As for me the best would like following:
60-70s
Mirage III, Vouture, Super Myster B2, A-4 Skyhawk, F-104, F-4E Phantom, MiG-17, MiG-21, Su-7, and some others from that period of 60s, 70s,
andfor 50s:
Myster, Meteor, MiG-15, Vampire, F-86 and some more.
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Originally posted by artik
and HTC!!!!! If WB do it I return to WB :D and I think a lot of players will do the same.
Yes, let's all threaten HTC with going to WB if they do something HTC doesn't. :rolleyes:
I'm confident you'll be the only one that goes over there.
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Originally posted by artik
What I know that WarBirds are planning to enter Jet are with Korean war
They allready have F-86 - need MiG - 15
and HTC!!!!! If WB do it I return to WB :D and I think a lot of players will do the same.
As for me the best would like following:
60-70s
Mirage III, Vouture, Super Myster B2, A-4 Skyhawk, F-104, F-4E Phantom, MiG-17, MiG-21, Su-7, and some others from that period of 60s, 70s,
andfor 50s:
Myster, Meteor, MiG-15, Vampire, F-86 and some more.
What are you doing here then??.
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Giving suggestions, oh Lord of the BBS
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Originally posted by LePaul
Giving suggestions, oh Lord of the BBS
Read: Whining.
Originally posted by artik
Whaaaa! HTC!, do this! Whaaa! I'll quit if you don't! Whaaaaa!
That's how i read it
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The problem with vietnam war jets would be modeling the avionics and all the keys needed to control these devices.
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Originally posted by Slash27
...but I would guess the farther into the heat seeking age you got the less fun it would be. Maybe, maybe not .
I agree unless, of course, the game has enough counter-measures built-in so that we can defeat the modern missiles.
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As for leaving HTC... :rolleyes: :lol
As long as Aces High (and, hopefully a JET SIM in the future!!!) stay competitive in both technology and price, I'm considering this home. Besides, anytime you call the company up to change your c.p.i.d. and the V.P. gets on the phone to help you out, you know you're working with good people. :aok
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Air Warrior had an online Korea arena (Sabre vs. Mig). It was fun, but THAT'S NOT WHAT I'M LOOKING FOR. Korea has already been done.
I'm dreaming of Tomcats, Fighting Falcons, Hornets, Warthogs...all online. :D
TBolt
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The problem with Tomcats ect.. is that fire & forget just isn't alot of fun, dogfighting is nearly impossible when you never see your nme for more than 1/4 sec.
As for Viet Nam, I'v often considered making a h2h map but desided not to because it's still a big sore spot for soo many people.
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Originally posted by zmeg
As for Viet Nam, I'v often considered making a h2h map but desided not to because it's still a big sore spot for soo many people.
I hear what you're saying about fire 'n forget not being any fun. It's obviously going to be something that the game maker will HAVE TO make fun...somehow. ;)
Several years ago, when I first posted the idea of a Vietnam-era sim on the Air Warrior boards, I saw how sore the subject of Vietnam is to some people (not most people, though). In the end, however, even the haters started to come around when they saw Kesmai's screenshots of the Vietnam sim that they had started. (I gave my old computer to my brother; so, I don't have access to those screenshots, unfortunately.)
Kesmai apparently determined that Vietnam had an excellent line-up of fun aircraft with just enough dumb technology to keep the gamer involved in the action. So, maybe it is a Vietnam sim that I'm asking for, once again.
I dunno.
TBolt
P.S.: Please...no disrespect is meant towards our veterans of Vietnam. I'm certainly NOT trying to open old wounds; so, don't attack me for it.
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How about a F-100 Super Sabre??? or a F-105??? and Il-28 and Yak-27, 28, and 29.
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Originally posted by jodgi
but maybe Targetware with their open approach will make it possible for a Vietnam era online sim.
Targetware?
TBolt
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http://www.targetware.net/
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You build it, you fly it...
I guess they're saying: "No place for whiners here, if you miss a certain plane, build it yourself!"
Hmmm... reminds me of communism, which is a good IDEA but...
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Not too many dogfights but plenty of action and flying skill necessary if you think of 1 word: Choppers.
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Originally posted by fullback
Not too many dogfights but plenty of action and flying skill necessary if you think of 1 word: Choppers.
Well, Vietnam IS known as the "helicopter war." :D
Thanks for the info on targetware.net. I'll look at it later. But, I doubt the community is like this one.
Anyone else want an online jet sim that is as good as AH is for us in the WW2 community?!?
TBolt
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The problem with Tomcats ect.. is that fire & forget just isn't alot of fun, dogfighting is nearly impossible when you never see your nme for more than 1/4 sec.
just drop all your countermeasures (chaff and flare) and that would force 'em to dogfight (Soviet MiGs and Sukhois should excel in this mode) BTW, if an enemy launch AIM-120, R-77 in BVR mode, pull the ejection seat.
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Anything other than guns only dogfighting will lead to waaaaaaay too much whining IMO. Even if it's not BVR, missiles would negate much of the fun and skill involved in online dogfighting... Point your nose at the bad guy, ripple off 'winder, rinse and repeat until the washing is dry then run home at Mach 2.
OTOH If you want to try out a good boxed Vietnam war era sim, try "Strike Fighters: Project 1". Not oo bad on the FM if you download the update patches and the graphics are very good.
As for Targetware, they are open beta at the moment on their WW2 and Korean war sims. When I tried it out a couple of months ago it was very buggy and had lots of FM issues. Eye candy was good though.
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Hmmm.... Htc has still a lot of work to do with WWII era planes and vehicles ....let them work;)
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Just a thought but consider this... right now with 400mph aircraft a missed UDP packet causes a really crazy warp.
As an exercise I invite everyone to consider what kind of a warp would occur with a plane moving 3 times faster. It could quickly become unworkable to fight in an airspace that has more than say 4 planes.
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A jet derivative of Aces High is possible and I think would create some excitement to the game.
I'm hoping we'll get the F-86, MiG-15, F9F Panther/Cougar, B-29 SuperFortress, Gloster Meteor, Lockheed F-94 Starfire, F-84 Thunderjet, Hawker Seafury, and LA-9 eventually to AH as a Korea War planeset. Since none of these carried missiles (they were armed with the M2 .50 cal or Hispano cannons), the weapons ballistics are already covered.
I think the first four to be done should be the F-86, MiG-15, B-29, and F9F, as they seemed to be the principle aircraft used in the conflict. Existing planes, such as the F4U-4, P-51D, IL-2, and both Yaks, would round out the potential planeset.
Of course we'd also have to update available armour to introduce the Pershing and Soviet T-34 tanks.
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If I understand Hitech's aim with this company, it was to be a
small focused WWII technology (mostly Air) Combat simulation.
Those of us who enjoy this sort of thing, like it here and have found a home here. I would like to see Hitech and crew stay on focus doing what it is they do that brought us all here in the first place.
There are still dozens of things left to explore within this small
time/technology focus that I would like to see that I never will if
AH branches out of its niche and scatters its focus.
I watched Air Warrior : Vietnam help kill off Air Warrior. I hope the
same thing does not happen here.
SKGunslinger
Sky Knights Fighter Bomber Group
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yeah, Air Warrior was going to become "Jet Warrior: Vietnam" but it never got beyond a few screenshots, as far as I know. However, they did have the F-86 and MiG-15 and I spent some time in there. I think they would've had more folks in the Korea War arena if they'd had more than 2 jets in it. In a dogfight, the MiG 15 pretty much ruled.
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actually the long range missile type fighting isnt as boring as it sounds...(get a c64 emulator a freind and ACE 2 to see what i mean...its great fun)
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There will be:
http://www.lo-mac.com
Demo just released! Looks likes it gonna rock!
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LOMAC is not an online sim though..
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If you keep missile combat prior to 1975, it should be pretty interesting. Missiles were just not very good till the mid 70's, and the hit rates during Vietnam (65-73) were around %10 for both IR and radar guided of all types in combat.
Plus if you have realistic launch restrictions, such as G limits (many had a 2 G launch limit) and time from button press to actual launch (several full seconds depending on aircraft/missile), and or missile warm up/spin up times, it could be very interesting I think.
However, HTC has stated many times that they do not plan to branch out to other air combat era's.
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Originally posted by Vermillion
However, HTC has stated many times that they do not plan to branch out to other air combat era's.
Well, IMHO, HTC has created and managed AH/AH2 now with 8 or so people. :aok Sooooooooo, hitech just needs to hire 8 more people, rent out the office space next door & get crackin' on a kick-arse jet sim (perhaps, after AH2 makes them a little money). :D
If I had the computer skills, I'd do it.
T (paper pusher) Bolt
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Originally posted by Vermillion
If you keep missile combat prior to 1975, it should be pretty interesting. Missiles were just not very good till the mid 70's, and the hit rates during Vietnam (65-73) were around %10 for both IR and radar guided of all types in combat.
Plus if you have realistic launch restrictions, such as G limits (many had a 2 G launch limit) and time from button press to actual launch (several full seconds depending on aircraft/missile), and or missile warm up/spin up times, it could be very interesting I think.
However, HTC has stated many times that they do not plan to branch out to other air combat era's.
Agree with you that misseles were not really good... but they had some important issues:
1st. IR guieded missiles could shoot from rear space only, they could not follow hard manuvering target - they were usefull to open combat - when enemy do not see you, or to shoot to disengaging enemy fo force them make brake manuvers and.... catch him with gun.
2nd. Radar guiede missiles was even more worst to get hard manuvering target but.... they could be shutten from every angle - HO too.
3rd the persantage was more then 10%.
In 1973 Yom Kippur War it was following:
Best missile was Rafael - Shafrir 2 missile it had 51% (176 shoots 89 kills) kill/shoot raito.
Second missile that had 40% ( 132 shoots 52.5 kills) raito was Sidewinder AiM-9G/D
Sparrow AiM-7E had 12 shoots and 3 lills 25%
The sucsses of Shafrir 2 missile was a result not only of good missile design but alse of good knowlage of its parameters and best shoot condition. Most of IAF pilots was well trained in using this missile.
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Artik,
The only real factor with the Israeli Air Force is that its pilots are trained to a razor edge all the time unlike the other air forces in the region. Also the IAF has outstanding equipment compared to what their opponents have always had also. So it really comes down to the man in the machine regardless of what others say. You can have all the bells and whistles but if you don't know how to use them they really don't do you any good.
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Originally posted by Reschke
Artik,
The only real factor with the Israeli Air Force is that its pilots are trained to a razor edge all the time unlike the other air forces in the region. Also the IAF has outstanding equipment compared to what their opponents have always had also. So it really comes down to the man in the machine regardless of what others say. You can have all the bells and whistles but if you don't know how to use them they really don't do you any good.
Thanks I know IAF is one of the best trained Air Force in the World, but...
Equipment most of the time it was equal to Arabian Air Forces.
1967 6 day war MiG21 vs Mirage III they are very similar planes. Only one advantage IAF pilots had over nieborhoods was that they know all perfomances and good and bad sides of MiG 21 in this war....
1973 IAF has F4E and Nesher (IAI Mirage III) vs MiG21s. F-4E suprioir but Syrian and Egyptian AF has extreemly good Anti Aircraft ground based systems like SAM2, SAM3, SAM6, SAM7-Strela and radar guided ground guns... all them work in coaperation all fill up all possible ranges - Low, Medium and High altitude. This battarey extreemy hard to be destroyed and very mobile. IAF get most of it looses because of this SAMs. So they wasn't equipment so bad...
1982 yes IAF has F-15, F-16, F-4E modern air to ground smart weapon, vs MiG-25, MiG23 and MiG21.... The result was 0 lost on aircrafts in combats.
But anyway the people make all the difference.
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Hey F4i,
If strike fighters ever gets its second patch it will have a strong online presence. Eye candy is as good as Lock -on or better.
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Originally posted by MC_Honky
Hey F4i,
If strike fighters ever gets its second patch it will have a strong online presence. Eye candy is as good as Lock -on or better.
Thanks, Honky. :D :lol
I've never liked stand-alone games that *try* to go online. It just never works for me. ( (shrugging shoulders) )
TBolt
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Rechske, get ahold of me if your still interested in our little project. I'm trying to get things going again ;)
Artik, I can get the exact numbers later at home, but the number I quoted for Vietnam is correct within a couple of percentage points. Yes, the hit rates got better towards the later parts of 72, and into early 73, but I quoted the overall average of the war. So I'm not surprised that the 73 Arab-Israeli conflict had statistics that you quoted. The experiences in Vietnam had taught the missile producers quite a bit about reliability, and these lessons were applied by the Israeli's.
Another rough number/statistic that I remember from my reading. During the 67 Arab-Israeli war, the percentage of guns kills were roughly 75% and missiles were 25%. Five years later in the 73 conflict, the numbers had flip flop'd and were 25% guns and 75% missiles. Thats why I say that to keep jet combat interesting, or at least interesting to this crowd who likes traditional "dogfighting", you would need to keep it prior to 1975 or so.
A good books on this era, in regards to tactics, weapons, and the aircraft is :
Clashes: Air Combat over North Vietnam 1965-1972 (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=2W5QBNZDSI&isbn=1557505853&itm=1)
This book is excellent, and where I got the missile statistics from.
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Originally posted by Vermillion
A good books on this era, in regards to tactics, weapons, and the aircraft is :
Clashes: Air Combat over North Vietnam 1965-1972 (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=2W5QBNZDSI&isbn=1557505853&itm=1)
This book is excellent, and where I got the missile statistics from.
I concur. That's an excellent book about the Vietnam air war. Lots of good stuff there; some good analysis, relevant first-person "I was there" stories, background info to "set the stage"... yeah, if you only have 1 book on the Vietnam air war, this is the one to have.
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Vermillion
I didn't come to tell you was wrong I just wanted to show some statistics I can get to all who read the forum, I've get very interesting document from IAF site about Shafrir II developmnet with interesting descriptions of all feachers of this missile and comperison with others. Unfortunatly this document in Hebrew unless I've given you the link. I just wanted to add some more information about missiles not telling they was so good or so bad. Just pure information I get.
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Artik, no offense taken :) I was just trying to explain where I had read the information.
I would love to see any documents like that if they were in English. Unfortunately, I am a poor dumb American who can only speak/read one language ;) Except for a few grade school phrases of Spanish.
I do 3D modeling as a Hobby, and one of my first projects was an Israeli Mirage IIIc. Interesting aircraft.
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Some statistics on Missile effectiveness, from the book "Clashes: Air Combat over North Vietnam 1965-1972"
During Rolling Thunder:
AIM 7 (D & E) Sparrow Results (340 total): Hits 8% (27), Misses 29% (99), and Failures 63% (214).
AIM 9B Sidewinder Results (187 total): Hits 15% (29), Misses 28% (53), and Failures 56% (105).
AIM 9D Sidewinder Results (99 total): Hits 19% (18), Other 81% (81)
AIM 4D Falcon Results (44 total): Hits 9% (4), Other 91% (40)
During Linebacker :
AIM 7 (E2) Sparrow Results (281 total): Hits 12% (34), Misses 22%, and Failures 66%.
AIM 9J Sidewinder Results (31 total): Hits 13% (4), Misses 13% (4), and Failures 74% (23).
AIM 9G Sidewinder Results (50 total): Hits 46% (23), Other 54% (27)
Overall:
AIM 7 Sparrow Results (612 total): Hits 9% (56), Misses 25% (152), and Failures 66% (404).
AIM 9 Sidewinder Results (454 total): Hits 18% (81), Misses 35% (160), and Failures 47% (213).
Note: Take out the very late war success of the Navy's AIM-9G (46%) and the overall Sidewinder success rate is much lower.
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Yep Verm; I will do that. I finally got the time to put into the skins again since all my coaching duties are over for a while. Plus I am breaking down and buying a new Wacom tablet sometime before Christmas. I am not springing for the big dollar tablets.
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Korea Korea Korea Korea
Guns Guns Guns Guns Guns
Mig-15 F-86 Mig-15 F-86 Mig-15 F-86
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Vermillion if you need a hand on anything...Textures, Modeling, Animation. I graduated from the Art Institute of Pittsburgh in June and am eager to get started anywhere I can.
Whymanbuster420@yahoo.com
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Nefarious, I gotta run right now, but I'll write you an email tomorrow. :)
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Cool.
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Originally posted by gofaster
yeah, Air Warrior was going to become "Jet Warrior: Vietnam" but it never got beyond a few screenshots, as far as I know. However, they did have the F-86 and MiG-15 and I spent some time in there. I think they would've had more folks in the Korea War arena if they'd had more than 2 jets in it. In a dogfight, the MiG 15 pretty much ruled.
When the feedback on "Jet Warrior" proved to be .... to put it mildly .... less than enthusiastic .... the Kesmoids put it on the back burner and started focusing thier efforts on AW:IV (and rightly so ... even though it ended up squashed by mismanagement after EA bought the store). Everytime the subject resurfaces it becomes apparent that the majority of players interested in MMOG air to air combat sims prefer piston gunfights over supersonic button pushing.
It's good to see some support for a Spanish Civil War setting on the upswing, however. :D
p.s. Krush and I used to eat Migs like popcorn in AW. ;)
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Arlo
A Jet sim sounds great but stop, take a deep breath and think about it....
Hundreds of Facestudmuffins firing off sidewinders at max range would be downright boreing.
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Tumor, consider whats been said in this thread and try to look at it from a fresh perspective.
If the missile modeling is historic, both in effectiveness and the necessity to use the weapons within their correct envelope, then you have little to worry about.
Facestudmuffins firing Sidewinders? Umm.... early sidewinders were rear aspect only, and were seriously G limited (my memory is saying 2G max firing conditions in the early models, but maybe that was the Sparrow) in the firing envelope. They were designed to shoot down non-manuevering bombers.
Early missiles were very ineffective and were difficult to use correctly.
A good early jet sim, would not be point and shoot the way you are imagining.
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Originally posted by artik
Mirage III, Vouture, Super Myster B2, A-4 Skyhawk, F-104, F-4E Phantom, MiG-17, MiG-21, Su-7, and some others from that period of 60s, 70s,
it's SNCASO SO.4050 Vautour not "Vouture" and Dassault Super Mystère B2 (I guess you want the "Super Super Mystère" Sa'ar too ;) as well as kfir and Nesher )
Add to the list :
Fouga CM.170 R Magister,II B,Dassault Mystère II C,Dassault Mystère IV A,Dassault Mystère IV N,Dassault Mirage III C (and CJ Shahak ;)) Dassault Mirage III B
Don't forget the Nord 2501 NORATLAS !
do you remeber the name of the IAF gave to the Fouga ?
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I'd much rather see HTC produce a WWI online sim like DOA. Only better, of course. :)
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Originally posted by straffo
it's SNCASO SO.4050 Vautour not "Vouture" and Dassault Super Mystère B2 (I guess you want the "Super Super Mystère" Sa'ar too ;) as well as kfir and Nesher )
Add to the list :
Fouga CM.170 R Magister,II B,Dassault Mystère II C,Dassault Mystère IV A,Dassault Mystère IV N,Dassault Mirage III C (and CJ Shahak ;)) Dassault Mirage III B
Don't forget the Nord 2501 NORATLAS !
do you remeber the name of the IAF gave to the Fouga ?
Yes I get some mistakes in my spelling ;)
Yes Dassault Super Mystere B2 - or Sambad - as it was called would be very nice,
Good knowlage of hebrew names - not a lot know them.
IAF Mirage III is Shahak
IAF Mirage V is Nesher (produced by IAI without licence)
IAF Super Mystere B2 with another engine - J52 (of A-4 Skayhawk) is Sa'ar.
IAF Kfir - it is complatly rebuild Mirage with J-79 engine, IAI weapon systems, better ord load - and some changes in aerodinamics. It saw actions in 1982 Bekka Valley War - as strike plane and had 1 or 2 kills.
Fuga - was called Tzukit - in hebrew - but this name for IAI producted Fugas only. By the way the saw action in Six Day War - as strike planes :)
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Well , IAF is the other airforce I've allways admired (the fact IAF used a lot of French plane helped too)
Concerning the names .... having some jew genes in my genome help perhaps ,I dunno :)
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Originally posted by Vermillion
Tumor, consider whats been said in this thread and try to look at it from a fresh perspective.
If the missile modeling is historic, both in effectiveness and the necessity to use the weapons within their correct envelope, then you have little to worry about.
Facestudmuffins firing Sidewinders? Umm.... early sidewinders were rear aspect only, and were seriously G limited (my memory is saying 2G max firing conditions in the early models, but maybe that was the Sparrow) in the firing envelope. They were designed to shoot down non-manuevering bombers.
Early missiles were very ineffective and were difficult to use correctly.
A good early jet sim, would not be point and shoot the way you are imagining.
AIM-7E-2, but convince me it wouldn't happen anyway. Your right though, it probably wouldn't be the way I'm imagining. But, think about the business end. Given what we see now, seem's to me the sim eventually have to be dumbed down to point-n-click or your investment would be pointless.
AIM-7E-2, Convince me it wouldn't happen anyway. Your right though, it probably wouldn't be the way I'm imagining. But, think about the business end. Given what we see now, seem's to me the sim would have to be dumbed down to the point-n-click skill level to be worth anyone putting money, time and effort behind it.
Besides... Arlo said F-14/18, c'mon.