Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Citabria on October 26, 2003, 12:02:14 PM
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dosnt doppler effect make this impossible or am i missing somthing?
edit: misunderstanding of term doppler effect.
my point is should we be able to hear anything outside and behind our plane when flying 300mph with a 2000 hp engine next to us making noise while we are wearing a headset that covers our ears to protect them from the noise of the guns and the engine?
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I think the accepted answer to your question is "no" - but not because of any Doppler effect. Because your engine is so loud, you couldn't hear anything outside your own a/c.
If you shut your engine off and opened the canopy, the Doppler effect would raise the pitch of the sound of the 109's engine as it closed the distance. After it passed you, the pitch of its engine sound would gradually drop due the the Doppler effect.
In AH its just a cool effect, even if its not true to life.
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I agree, it is a very good effect.
Of course in real life you wouldn't be hearing anything but your engine..
But this ain't real life and it sounds neat
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u outrun the speed of sound at least to begin with.
(not talkin about the soundbarriere)
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Originally posted by Citabria
dosnt doppler effect make this impossible or am i missing somthing?
Cit, you are a tard! But I will answer.
Doppler effect is when you hear a car go past you, and its engine sound pitch drops as it passes you. The wavelength of the sound is being extended because the source of the sound is moving away from you. So no, in your scenario, doppler effect would mean buggery-suet.
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If you're blasting away at 400+ mph then it will be very hard to hear anything behind you, even if you're not making any noise yourself.
Planes (anything) reach the sound barrier gradually, so even if warbirds never broke the sound barrier, they flew so fast that they didn't "transmit" sound very far ahead.
Maybe I'll do some maths on this...
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Beetle, you are in no way, shape or form capable of calling anyone else a tard.
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LOL. what was I thinking :o
In the p51 and 109 example, the p51 will ofcourse always hear the 109 behind it (theoretically). But since they are travelling at 0.6 mach (400mph) the sound will be a second or 2 old when it reaches the lead p51. But given that they are travelling at the same speed in the same direction, the pitch will be normal. Only if the observer has a different relative speed than the sound transmitter, the doppler effect will come into play and "change" pitch.
My bad on my previous post.
As we say here: I crapped on my leg. :D
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Because you're rapidly moving away from the point where the sound is produced it will be both delayed & deminished, you would be dead before you ever heard a plane diving on you at high rate of closure. Also because ac engine freq. is very low the dopler effect would be very noticable.
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This is so off topic, bear with me...
Does anything happen when I hit 100 posts?
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Let's see...
Yes it did.
Ok, I'll behave now.
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P51 cockpit sound level makes it impossible to hold a conversation. But I think you worded your question incorrectly.
Doppler effect causes the sound waves to bunch up as a fast moving object approaches and to separate after it passes.
In real life it might appear that you didn't hear anything until just before the plane passed if you were sitting still. When you are both moving you hear a different pitch level because of the relative velocities and it would seem like you can hear the approach from further away.
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my point is should we be able to hear anything outside and behind our plane when flying 300mph with a 2000 hp engine next to us making noise while we are wearing a headset that covers our ears to protect them from the noise of the guns and the engine?
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No ofcourse not but in real life u could smell a unwashed wable miles away.
Not to mention the combination of the typical leathersmell .
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A lot of things would be different in real life fester. You couldnt come back after getting killed for one thing.
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and now deep thought by metatron
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I would think that you could hear a 109 that was maybe 20 or 30 feet away, at the most. You could probably hear guns a bit further away. I've read a few accounts of pilots first firing their guns and being surprised as to how loud they were. But that's less than 10 feet away, mounted on their own planes.
Yes, I think inside plane sounds are greatly amplified in AH.
eskimo
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my guess is they were lucky to hear the bullets as they struck their aircraft - no way could they have heard a plane 200 to 300 ft behind them behind them
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to put it simply...can you hear the car thats directly behind you on the freeway???thought not
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Originally posted by Citabria
and now deep thought by metatron
Brilliant prattle fester. Tell us why you want it changed! Because a P51 turned when he heard you getting close? The one or two extra kills isnt going to help you much.
I would rather ask HTC to prohibit the white sound mask so your engine sound cant be silent. Then even you wouldnt hear a con closing on your blind spot.
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gotta stick my ugly head in here....
WHO hijacked Festercitibrias account?!?!?!?!?! (he would know the answer already)
i thought from all the myth surrounding him/her/it that it worked in the avionics (CHIT i speeled that right LOL) industry of some sort. {ie pilot or in the air force}
i thought somewhere i heard festercitibria taught ACM in Top Gun one time (though never believed it LOL)
but really...
every "reliable" source said that "fester" was in some part of the armed forces and was an instructor or in the mininum flew planes.
really Fester WTF do you do for a living (have done)????/
<<>> btw nice winging with you in the past just an honest question!
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Pretty sure Fester is a something like a college student.
If the plane on your 6 is not gaining, the net velocity relative to you is 0 == no doppler effect.
The only question is whether or not the total sound volume by all things surrounding you; engine, wind, etc, cover the sound of a plane (its engine mostly, everything else would be pretty minor when heard from outside so that you'd hear none of it) 200d in space behind you (assuming that space carries the sound without deminishing it at all).
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No, you would not hear anything other than your own engine in a closed cockpit - guns and hard hits (cannons, or MG close to the cockpit or main structural pieces) through a little audible reception, vibration would be the major "sound" factor here. Just like how your own voice will sound different to you than on an audio recorder, you will hear things through vibrations.
No, you would not hear anything other than your own engine and the wind in an open cockpit, guns and hits the way I mentioned above.
-SW
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I have worked in the USAF on flightlines for over 10 years and know that you cant hear crap out there not even a person standing next to you without ear protection. BUT if you do wear earplugs and even ear defenders over the top of them you are suddenly able to hear a person standing beside you while they speak at a slightly elevated level. The hearing protection filters out the noises outside the freq of human speech but not the speech itself. Is it possible that the head sets worn by the pilots could have had a simular effect, allowing a detectable shift in freq from outside the aircraft. Even though your sitting right next to a 2000hp engine there is another one closing on your six. I can tell the difference when one F-16 is started and a second fires up behind me, It is very noticable. The ear is a very sensitive receiver, it is so sensitive that we detect AOA by Phase delta and not amplitute. So are we so sure it isnt possible? My 2 cent worth.
RHIN0
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Originally posted by Citabria
my point is should we be able to hear anything outside and behind our plane when flying 300mph with a 2000 hp engine next to us making noise while we are wearing a headset that covers our ears to protect them from the noise of the guns and the engine?
No. In a RL P51 you even have the "organ pipe effect" of the wind blowing across the gun barrel openings. In AH, folks even turn down their own engine volume so as to hear a con creeping up behind - pure gamey crap.
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You poor sap, Beet, did you get robbed out of one to many "sneak up the 6" kills tonight? "pure gamey crap" LOL
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im convinced that Citabria has an unhealthy sexual fetish aimed at the 109.
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Originally posted by SOB
You poor sap, Beet, did you get robbed out of one to many "sneak up the 6" kills tonight? "pure gamey crap" LOL
No, haven't played AH since before the con. Still working off the ".44 mag virtual viagra"...
Have another burger. :lol
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Maybe there could be somekind of a compromise..
Include external sounds with doppler effects on 300 degrees around the plane. Leave 60 degrees blind spot behind the plane to make sound cheating impossible.
/edit
Leave external sounds just for the sake of 'wow' effect on gameplay. We're movie dweebs afterall. The deaph spot on the back should be enough.
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Haven't read the posts, and I don't know anything about airplanes, much less the P-51 Mustang. But it seems to me the engine noise, plus the head gear of the pilot would preclude hearing another plane coming up behind you.
Just guessing here, but to me it seems visual contact would be the only thing letting you know something was there.
Les
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The point is that if the sounds are left alone the canopy pass is really the only time you can hear a plane outside your own. Unless your engine is toggled off or your a glider. Since we can edit our sound files you can bet that certain people are making good use of it.
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Originally posted by MetaTron
The point is that if the sounds are left alone the canopy pass is really the only time you can hear a plane outside your own. Unless your engine is toggled off or your a glider. Since we can edit our sound files you can bet that certain people are making good use of it.
AFAIK, you don't even have to do that. I believe the option exists to turn down your own sound while turning up that of everyone else. Unadulterated gamey crap. :rolleyes:
But would you know it, some dork in here once suggested that a RL P51 pilot might open his canopy to listen out for enemy planes. Can you imagine what would happen, at combat speeds? :lol
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Heh, you sure do seem upset about it for someone not affected by it. Frankly, doing this sounds like a lot more trouble than it's worth, and is certainly a poor excuse for removing the ambient sounds from the game.
"Unadulterated gamey crap. :rolleyes:" LOL, this time with the rolling eyes even. Sorry you're being cheated out of the occasional hard-earned sneak kill.
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Closest thing I can think of a RL experience that I have is this..
Drag Racing...
In the Past I used to Race every week in my muscle car. This ment I was in a enclosed car with Helmet (limited ear protection).
Also running with no exhaust.
When running Brackets, You can have cars with a large speed difference. This means a handicap start. I can tell you I could most certainly hear an gas Rail car closing quickly near the end of the strip. Speeds were in the 100-150 mph range.
Iv also experienced Hearing Protection ability to filter out the white noise of an engine, making other sounds aubilbe as well.
My "Guess" would be you could probably hear another Aircraft at some point, how many yards? I have no Idea.
Think of AH sounds as real, but probably as Over-Realism. (enhanced to make it a better experience)
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Originally posted by beet1e
Unadulterated gamey crap.
Right on!!! This is the kind of crap that makes it so difficult for me to explain to my wife that this is NOT a game.
:mad:
;)
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Did anyone stop to think about my idea?
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I think I read a post not too long ago about some jugs climbing through cloud cover on take off.
One jug acually had laid his wingtip on the elevator of his wingman
wingman noticed he could'nt pull up so he yanked it up hard, causing a 3 plane collision
I'm guessing he had a prop @ 1 foot from his cockpit when he yanked, but certainly did not hear it
BTW the plane that laid the wingtip rtb'd with slight wing damage
I think it's in the O'club somewhere
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Flit: Or then he heard the others perfectly well but thought nothing of it as they flew in a formation.
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Originally posted by MetaTron
A lot of things would be different in real life fester. You couldnt come back after getting killed for one thing.
....
Hmmm I didn't realize that anyone EVER killed fester in here:)
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Dont know if it has any bearing but I have been taxiing a C-177 and looked back and had a P-51 doing its snake dance behind me. Never heard it and it was 200' back.
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Originally posted by kevykev56
So are we so sure it isnt possible?
Absolutely positive.
-SW
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If you’re so positive, quantify it for us please. I gave a clear example of how it is possible. Give me a rebuttal besides "absolutely positive". I’m not saying it would be something you would hear I am in the same boat as all the rest on this post...I don’t know.
RHIN0
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Flying a Cozy kit plane with a small 750hp engine, I could not hear the second Cozy with a larger 1200hp engine next to me.
Aside from that, the audible noise level of an engine at full revs with wind howling across your plane at 300MPH - you won't hear anything except your own engine and thoughts.
Standing on a tarmac isn't remotely the same as sitting in a closed cockpit traveling at speed.
Heres more: The first indication pilot's had they were being shot at was the tracers flying past their cockpit, not the sound of a plane's engine 150yards behind them.
One more: Take a ride in a car thats straight pipe, no muffler, no cat, you won't hear anything outside the car.
-SW
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Can’t argue with the experience that you have. Thank you for the clear explanation. I am convinced.
RHIN0
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I agree you wont hear other planes if your at speed. But i am quite sure you could here the bullets bouncing off ya. As I have yet to not here a bird bounce of my planes, and i've had quite a few bird strikes. Tends to happen when you fly in and out of BOS, LGA, and JFK all the time :), damn seagulls.
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The Cozy had a 750HP engine in it?
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
One more: Take a ride in a car thats straight pipe, no muffler, no cat, you won't hear anything outside the car.
-SW
Disagree. As per my post above. (based on personal experience)
It really depends on how loud that car next to you is. Same for any noise.
Come on guys, you dont go completely deaf when your around a loud noise. Some of these answers are too absolute. You would think you couldnt hear a large explosion next to you if the engine was running.
If the sound is there, it can be heard, Just depends on how close and how loud it is before a human ear is going to notice it. How else do explain being able to use a head set in a real A/C ;)
Back to the original question, I dont know, The ony way to prove the answer is to have you guys buy me a P51 and a 109 and help me test it out ;)
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If a P51 shoots down a 109 over a forest and nobody's around to hear it...does anyone give a crap?
bumba
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Originally posted by AKCasca
The Cozy had a 750HP engine in it?
I just checked it out, for some reason I thought it was 750 - but the one I was in was 160HP while the other one was 200 HP. They were the small tandem two seaters.
Grimm, I'll have to trust you that you could hear the other car. I've never heard another car with my friend's 5.0 Mustang thats been straight piped, the other cars were straight piped too.
If the sound is there, sure it can be heard - but then you run into the fact that most sounds cancel each other out.
I've just never heard another plane - ever - while in the cockpit of one with the engine running. Besides, no WWII fighter pilots have ever said they heard the other plane, they only mention of seeing the guns blinking at them and the tracers flying by. The sound waves have to catch up to the plane in front of them, and defeat the noise already being produced by that plane's engine and the loud noise created by the wind moving across the surface of the canopy and plane - and if that isn't enough (which it is) it still has to travel through the ear pieces of the pilot's headset.
The reason you can hear through a headset is because the ear pieces use material that stops the sound resonating so much.
Kind of like putting up mattresses on the basement walls to create a sound stage that won't disturb your neighbors.
-SW
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AKS\/\/ulfe
Well maybe I shouldnt have accepted your direct correlation so easily earlier. I am now in doubt again since the 160-200hp comparison.
I have drag raced motorcycles and thought it not relevant earlier because of being outside and not inside a canopy. But my experience with all the wind noise, and im sure it is alot more than inside a vehicle, I can hear the bike beside me as we go down the track at over 110mph and we are only talking about 100-150hp.
I feel your grasping at straws to prove your point with the comment about most sounds canceling each other out. The only time that happens is if the sounds are the same frequency, are time syncronous, and opposite phase relationship. Not a very common thing. If it were twin engine aircraft would be silent and we would have a hard time communicating.
Another point that should be mentioned is that although wind noise is a factor it is decreased by the more aerodynamic the aircraft. not sure how it compares to your cozy but just a guess the P51 is more aerodynamic than the cozy. Also another personal experience at over 500knots in a KC-135 (707) sitting in the cockpit without headsets I cannot remember a deafining roar of wind noise(not much if any soundproof material inside military aircraft). Still no proof that either is right or wrong here just a few more observations. Your thoughts?
RHIN0
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My first experience with this effect was a canopy to canopy pass at about 100d. I was surprised that this effect was included in the game and when I mentioned it I was then immediately informed about the volumn levels. It was a neat effect until the gamey aspects came into play.
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If I couldn't hear the plane next to me with a 180HP engine in it, how could I ever hear a 1300hp over a 1300hp engine?
And I'm not grasping at straws, if you can find me just ONE instance of a fighter pilot saying "I heard the plane coming up behind me, and broke off to avoid him" - then I'll be proven wrong.
We aren't talking about motorcycles, or drag racers- in neither of those are you in an enclosed virtually air tight environment. In a cockpit, you are. Sound waves travel through air, kind of hard to penetrate a thick canopy or aluminum.
There is just no way you are going to hear a plane 10 yards away from you, let alone 200 - unless your engine is off.
-SW
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Nope.
Flying a helicopter I can't hear ****. Unless the doors are off and I'm hovering beside a Harvard as it's taxing down the taxi way.
I'm sure you certinly wouldn't hear anything unless the other plane was just about to collide with yours.
...-Gixer
~Hells Angels~
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I guess the next best thing would be to ask a few Warbird pilots, guys that actually fly them.
I still like my Idea of you guys buying me a P51 so I could try.
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Well, I've been in fingertip formation with an f-16/f-15 and could not hear the eng. of the other a/c. I can't hear the a/c behind me on BDA checks. I find it very hard to believe one could hear an a/c behind ya even with a WWII prop plane.
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Last time i checked this was a game and not real life.
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True, It is a game :)
I think being able to hear the A/C does add to the experience. Its pretty cool to hear that close pass.
If your going to lose outside engine sounds, you might as well lose Check Six as well. Real planes dont have a six button. Better loose the trim buttons, Real planes dont have trim buttons. Better lose the Multi Auto Pilots, Warbirds didnt have auto climb. Better lose the Radio ID things, thats not real either.
Lets face it there are alot of things that are added to AH to make it a more enjoyable experience. Im pretty happy with the way things are, and this game just keeps getting better as it goes.
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Originally posted by Grimm
If your going to lose outside engine sounds, you might as well lose Check Six as well. Real planes dont have a six button. Better loose the trim buttons, Real planes dont have trim buttons. Better lose the Multi Auto Pilots, Warbirds didnt have auto climb. Better lose the Radio ID things, thats not real either.
Pilots could call their wingleaders 6, or anyone in their squadron. If they knew the frequency of the other unit, chances are they could raise them to call their 6.
Then again, wing tactics were actually used in real life - in AH its just a giant furball with no organization.
Real planes have trim, not trim buttons - but do you have any extra wheel devices laying around you could use to trim your plane? Yes, some planes don't have trim on all axis, but they are trimmed to fly level at a certain speed.
Some planes did have an auto level function so that the pilot would not have to hold onto his joystick at all times when in level flight, not all - but some did.
Radio ID - I assume you mean the person's name showing up in the corner when they send you a message? True, but then again - they had predetermined radio IDs and each radio transmission would begin "[Person message is to] [Person message is from] [message]" Only squads in the game that want that kind of thing do it, so its kind of necessary to know their handle if they won't say it.
In any event, none of that relates to this thread. It wasn't about whats real or not, it was whether or not you would be able to hear a plane 200 yards behind you.
You would not be able to.
-SW
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Definately off topic. ;) But its easy to get side tracked.
Im not actualy in disagreement with the fact you most likely could not hear another A/C during flight. I think thats probably true.
No one has brought in the fact that some people hear better and worse than others. Maybe a select few could? Maybe no human could. Its all speculation for me.
As far as Gameplay, which is a bit of read between the lines for this topic, I think its OK to be able to hear. I like it, It just adds something to the experience for me. My only point is that no Sim/Game is perfect and there will always be comprimises between gameplay and realism.
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Grimm wery well spoken, I am with you on that post. It looks like we are going to have to buy that P51 and 109 to find out for sure. I will thow in $2, 1 for each plane. AKS\/\/ulfe Sorry about the grasp at straws comment, I could have used a better choice for that statement. I just thougt the sound cancel debate was a bit off base. But hey this is a game and without all the cool things AH offers to us what would we do with ourselfs? I might actually spend time with my family...lol
RHIN0
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Naturally, if you are in a P-51, you should be able to hear the 109... because P-51 won the WW2.
On the other hand in 109 you should not be able to hear the P-51.
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Originally posted by Grimm
I guess the next best thing would be to ask a few Warbird pilots, guys that actually fly them.
Been there, done that.
And no, you don't hear any noise from the other planes, said the WW2 pilots I've asked that from.
Kyösti Karhila, highest scoring living Finnish ace, though mentioned that when he saw an La-5 20 meters behind him and pushed his plane into vicious evasive, he thought he heard the cannon shells whistling just centimeters away from his canopy.
Could have been more imagination and shock though :)
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Naturally, if you are in a P-51, you should be able to hear the 109... because P-51 won the WW2.
ROFLMAD!
Im gonna be on the viking line the 7th of november, if you want a free drink/drinks be sure to be there lol!
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Originally posted by Grimm
My only point is that no Sim/Game is perfect and there will always be comprimises between gameplay and realism.
In what way do artificial sounds add to the gameplay? They add to the cuteness factor certainly, but not gameplay. I think sounds from other planes should be removed. I've flown in small planes before, and I could not hear the guy behind us over our engine noise--no way in hell.
Originally posted by BlauK
Naturally, if you are in a P-51, you should be able to hear the 109... because P-51 won the WW2.
On the other hand in 109 you should not be able to hear the P-51.
LOL. :)
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Originally posted by Grimm
Disagree. As per my post above. (based on personal experience)
It really depends on how loud that car next to you is. Same for any noise.
Come on guys, you dont go completely deaf when your around a loud noise. Some of these answers are too absolute. You would think you couldnt hear a large explosion next to you if the engine was running.
If the sound is there, it can be heard, Just depends on how close and how loud it is before a human ear is going to notice it. How else do explain being able to use a head set in a real A/C ;)
Back to the original question, I dont know, The ony way to prove the answer is to have you guys buy me a P51 and a 109 and help me test it out ;)
I think Grimm has a point here. (Though he may not know it.) It is like the people who live next to airports, busy highways, or Niagra falls (just an example.) After being exposed to a certain and near constant sound, you start to block it out.
Most people here should know that the sensation known as "hearing" is not just a physical thing. The movements of the bones in your ear must be processed cognitively before they are recognized as a particular "sound." This being said, sound waves and distances cannot be the sole judge of whether a person could actually hear a sound or not.
If you were a regular pilot of any given WW2 plane and heard the droning of your engine (or even "screaming sound,") You could bet you would notice a different sounding engine. Just as Grimm can tell the difference between the sound and pitch of his engine during a pass and that of his opponent.
One more example: If i shot off 10 firearms off different calibre at say....1/2 mile or almost any distance guys like lazs could tell me that they were the same firearm being discharged or a different one. He might not be able to tell me exactly what they were (though i fear he could,) but that they were at least different.
Once you becoming accustomed to anything sensory, anything new or different than what you are used to would stand out.
my 2 cents.
Btw lazs this wasnt a dig at you for being fond of firearms, just using you as an example of someone being familiar with a certain experience being able to notice things a little better than others.