Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: muckmaw on October 27, 2003, 07:51:27 AM
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I'm reading about the democratic debate and all the shots the Dems are taking at the current administration from Bush to Cheney to Ashcroft and all the rest...
But here's the thing that's sticking up in my mind...
Anyone notice we're not had a terror attack in the US since 9/11?
I mean, sure we can't declare victory over terrorism, but in 2 years and counting, nothing has occurred.
I can assure you, it is not for lack of effort on the part of the terrorists.
As many faults as GWB and Co. has, and there are faults....the U.S. government with help from around the world has kept us safe for 2 years now.
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I am dismayed by people criticizing our president during times of war. I do not believe in this, and do not think it's patriotic. It is demoralizing to our troops, and helps our enemies.
Les
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This Administration is responsible for a war in which (by their account) "terrorists" are killing and wounding Americans every day of the week.
(You can make a case that the war has somehow prevented an attack on US soil, but the jury is WAY out on that, and it doesn't change the fact of American deaths in Iraq.)
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Originally posted by popeye
This Administration is responsible for a war in which (by their account) "terrorists" are killing and wounding Americans every day of the week.
(You can make a case that the war has somehow prevented an attack on US soil, but the jury is WAY out on that, and it doesn't change the fact of American deaths in Iraq.)
Is it better they attack soldiers who are capable of defending themselves or civilians who are not?
The war on terror HAS prevented a terrorist attack for 2 years.
The war in Iraq, according to democrats has little to do with the war on terror as according to their statements, Hussein did not have terrorist ties.
Spin it anyway you like. You cannot change the fact that there has not been a terrorist attack in the US since 9/11.
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Originally posted by popeye
This Administration is responsible for a war in which (by their account) "terrorists" are killing and wounding Americans every day of the week.
(You can make a case that the war has somehow prevented an attack on US soil, but the jury is WAY out on that, and it doesn't change the fact of American deaths in Iraq.)
With all due respect my old friend, sometimes, doing what is right comes with a price and is not easy.
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Bush Jr has the best Admin since Bush Sr
the dems know that but can't say it in public
the dem pres "debates" belong on the Comedy Channel
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Just gotta love spin and the limited sighted view of world history and events...
How many Terror Attacks had the US experienced?
Let's start with Regan....US Marine barracks in Lebanon.
Bush Senior - a few embassies over seas (I forget which ones), bombing of the Barracks in Saudi Arabia, USS Stark (or is that Clinton?)
Clinton - WTC (minor bombing), AK-47 attack at intersection infront of the FBI building in VA, several embassies over seas, USS Cole
Bush - 9/11... and the Anthrax mail attacks that followed... and just last week Ricin was found in the mail.... daily suicide bombings in Iraq.
I don't think Bush Jrs. record is any better.
And it's not true that since 9/11 there haven't been any more attacks.... remember the Anthrax letters?
Soldiers are dieing ever day now.
Before the end of this year there will be at least 60 more soldiers killed in Iraq... and 400 wounded or maimed.
If this war in Iraq continues for another year that's at least 500 to 700 dead, and 2000 wounded and maimed.
I watch Polish, Arabic, Chinese, BBC, and French news as well as US CNN, Fox, ABC.... (I speak several languages)
The US has lost credibility in the world.
The next time we go to the world and our allies and ask for help against another nation... we'll be met with skeptism.... because our US Intelligence can't be trusted.
Even top Republican's are starting to question the White House's integrity in this matter... and the Administrations use of the War Powers act....
Go to the Friday's CONGRESSIONAL RECORD and READ IT!!
It's not pretty!
Are these Congressmen un-American because they are speaking out against Bush?
Or Do we have a President who's running out of control...
a President who has a masters in buisness adminsitration... yet every business he's ever run... has gone bankrupt....
Gee... I guess we are getting exactly what he is...
The truth is coming out that the Bush Administration STOVE PIPED DEBUNKED Intelligence to justify this WAR.
And now that there is some investigation of this "Intelligence"... Congressmen - EVEN REPUBLICAN CONGRESSMEN - are not happy about the lies that were told to them to justify this war.... They are asking for an investigation into this.. they want the truth!
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What's the daily limit on this lake?
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Originally posted by muckmaw
I'm reading about the democratic debate and all the shots the Dems are taking at the current administration from Bush to Cheney to Ashcroft and all the rest...
Right now all of the Candidates are gearing up for a very divisive Primary. Over the next six months, each of the Democratic Candidates is going to do everything they can to solidify their support in the "Midnight Target" ranks (heh, sorry MT :) ). That is, they are going to try to appeal to those who are likely to vote Democrat (since in most states, those will be the only ones who's votes count to them). They also need to cozy to the left for fundraising purposes.
I wasn't in country the last time the GOP lined up to take on the DEM incumbant ('96), and I don't really recall the debates then, but I imagine they were pretty "weapons free" when it came to attacking the Clin-Ton administration.
-Sik
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Clinton - WTC (minor bombing)
ROTFLMAO!
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You know MiniD I noticed that too - hillarious what open bias will lead people to do....
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DETH TO AMREEKA, DETH TO GREAT SHAITAN BOOSH!!!
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Originally posted by DmdNexus
How many Terror Attacks had the US experienced?
Just a few. In the name of Islam, But notice after 9/11 they move off shore to soft targets.
1972 Munich Germany
1979 Embassy In Iran hostages
1979 Lebanon kidnapping and murder businessman
1983 Beirut bombing 800 marines killed
1983 Achille Lauro 70 year old Jewish American in wheelchair thrown from ship
1983 TWA 487 hijacked from Athens
1988 Pan Am flight 103
1993 WTC
1995 Kabul Towers in Saudi Arabia
1998 Embassies: Kenya, Tanzania
2000 USS Cole
2001 WTC, Pentagon, Penn. Headed for Washington
2001 Shoe bomber plane to Boston
2001 LAX airport shooting
2001 French tanker bombing
2001 Decapitation reporter Pakistan
2002 Bali night club 2002 Café in Indonesia
2002 Snippier shooting USA Washington
2002 Moscow theater
2001 Business man in Jordan
2002 Muslim rites over newspaper article in Kenya thousands of Christians murdered
2002 Jewish hotel bombing Kenya
2003 Asan Akbar US marina grenades own troop and shoot them in back as fleeing.
2003 Saudi Arabia compound
2003 Marroco
and still growing
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Beirut bombing 800 marines killed ......That many?
Don't forget the Embassy bombings in 83' and 84'.
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Edit: nevermind
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Originally posted by JBA
Just a few. In the name of Islam, But notice after 9/11 they move off shore to soft targets.
1972 Munich Germany
1979 Embassy In Iran hostages
1979 Lebanon kidnapping and murder businessman
1983 Beirut bombing 800 marines killed
1983 Achille Lauro 70 year old Jewish American in wheelchair thrown from ship
1983 TWA 487 hijacked from Athens
1988 Pan Am flight 103
1993 WTC
1995 Kabul Towers in Saudi Arabia
1998 Embassies: Kenya, Tanzania
2000 USS Cole
2001 WTC, Pentagon, Penn. Headed for Washington
2001 Shoe bomber plane to Boston
2001 LAX airport shooting
2001 French tanker bombing
2001 Decapitation reporter Pakistan
2002 Bali night club 2002 Café in Indonesia
2002 Snippier shooting USA Washington
2002 Moscow theater
2001 Business man in Jordan
2002 Muslim rites over newspaper article in Kenya thousands of Christians murdered
2002 Jewish hotel bombing Kenya
2003 Asan Akbar US marina grenades own troop and shoot them in back as fleeing.
2003 Saudi Arabia compound
2003 Marroco
and still growing
I must remind you, Islam means peace... :aok
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I must remind you, Islam means peace... :aok
The christian god and the muslim god are one in the same.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Did terrorist attacks use to be common before 911 then?
Did terrorists destroy the World Trade Center in the heart of NY before 9/11?
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Did terrorist attacks use to be common before 911 then?
Of course not, the Islamics only started hating the USA because of evil GW Booooosh...
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Originally posted by JBA
Just a few. In the name of Islam, But notice after 9/11 they move off shore to soft targets.
1972 Munich Germany
1979 Embassy In Iran hostages
1979 Lebanon kidnapping and murder businessman
1983 Beirut bombing 800 marines killed
1983 Achille Lauro 70 year old Jewish American in wheelchair thrown from ship
1983 TWA 487 hijacked from Athens
1988 Pan Am flight 103
1993 WTC
1995 Kabul Towers in Saudi Arabia
1998 Embassies: Kenya, Tanzania
2000 USS Cole
2001 WTC, Pentagon, Penn. Headed for Washington
2001 Shoe bomber plane to Boston
2001 LAX airport shooting
2001 French tanker bombing
2001 Decapitation reporter Pakistan
2002 Bali night club 2002 Café in Indonesia
2002 Moscow theater
2001 Business man in Jordan
2002 Muslim rites over newspaper article in Kenya thousands of Christians murdered
2002 Jewish hotel bombing Kenya
2003 Asan Akbar US marina grenades own troop and shoot them in back as fleeing.
2003 Saudi Arabia compound
2003 Marroco
By the standards established by the starter of this thread...
One would have to conclude that a Republican in the White House...means the US is vulnerable to terrorist attacks.
Clinton only had 3 terror attacks....
Gee Thanks Pres Bush for making the world safe for the US.
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Grunherz I seriously doubt you're in a position to act condescending.
You still smell too much of a rubber dingy for that. :aok
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There is still no justification of why we went into iraq.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Grunherz I seriously doubt you're in a position to act condescending.
You still smell too much of a rubber dingy for that. :aok
Yea OK attack me for being an immigrant to America, I'm sure it makes sense to you to do so - somehow... :lol
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So you are sying the intricate years long preparation for 911 was done done by AlQaeda in anticipation of a Bush victory in 2000?
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
There is still no justification of why we went into iraq.
Do you not keep up on what is going on in the world? Does something that serves as justification to the MAJORITY of Americans mean nothing to you because it isnt a justification that fits your view?
I have seen and read enough to justify it to me....Does that mean your view isnt justified? According to you it does.
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Originally posted by Monk
Beirut bombing 800 marines killed ......That many?
Don't forget the Embassy bombings in 83' and 84'.
I'm not sure but I think it was about 200 US marines +
58 french soldiers (this last part can be complelty occulted at your will)
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Just to throw a little wrench in here ----didnt the crusades target Islamic countrys? and were not these attacks done by europeans? and wasnt it just a political ruse to keep the Christain church in power a little longer? --but the Christain religon preaches peace?
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What have you read that has justified it in your mind drone?
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Originally posted by drone
Just to throw a little wrench in here ----didnt the crusades target Islamic countrys? and were not these attacks done by europeans? and wasnt it just a political ruse to keep the Christain church in power a little longer? --but the Christain religon preaches peace?
more then enough reason to have them both outlawed
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
The christian god and the muslim god are one in the same.
So not true!!
This is a sad sad comment on your part, you are smarter then this.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Grunherz I seriously doubt you're in a position to act condescending.
You still smell too much of a rubber dingy for that. :aok
I know you are just joking but I am tired of people using that against him. He's very much an American. His English is better than most people born here and far better than many immigrants that I deal with every day. He's busting his bellybutton to get an education and prosper. IMHO people like him are possibly more deserving of the title American than many of the lazy bastards who were born here.
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Originally posted by Scootter
So not true!!
This is a sad sad comment on your part, you are smarter then this.
Yes they are the same, as is the Hebrew god.. The three disagree on the status of Christ. In Islam Jesus is considered a prophet, Judaism IIRC, ironically, doesnt hold him in any importance even though Jesus was a Jewish prophecised messiah and of course Christianity thinks he is the son of god.
Thats why I think all this islam vs the world crap is so sad now its the same god... :(
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Thanks Funked! :D
Siaf sure has some fetish about me being an accepted immigrant in the USA - doesnt he? :)
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Originally posted by drone
Do you not keep up on what is going on in the world? Does something that serves as justification to the MAJORITY of Americans mean nothing to you because it isnt a justification that fits your view?
I have seen and read enough to justify it to me....Does that mean your view isnt justified? According to you it does.
(http://www.brown.edu/Athletics/Fencing/songs/touche.jpg)
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eagler finds justification in anything as long as his priest or preacher or whatever says he should.
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Reasons for war with Iraq:
Destroy the WMD that Iraq has stockpiled,
Oust Saddam from leadership so he is no longer a threat to the Iraqi people, and;
instill peace and stability in the region.
:)
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Thanks Funked! :D
Siaf sure has some fetish about me being an accepted immigrant in the USA - doesnt he? :)
Your not American?
Well, I could not tell English is your second language, if that's anyt consolation...
Pfffft...Grun is more of an American than most Natural Born Americans I know..
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
What have you read that has justified it in your mind drone?
Let me put it to you in this way
When you smack a bully in the head with a 2/4, him and his buddys tend to leave you alone --particularly when he learns your dog is bigger than his....
I was gonna leave it at that but just cant,
Do you not understand that the FORMER dictator of Iraq had all of the Arab world scared?
You know something, I owe my life to a lot of Iranians who stood between me and some of their own religous fanatical countrymen who wanted to kill me just because I was an American.
If my Government would allow me to reenlist I would be in Iraq right now fighting for the people of that country... Why because I was there when the Shaw of Iran fell and I saw what was done to people of that country that didnt fall into the religous zealots way of thinking...And I dont think that Suddam was any different than the people who took over Iran......You know why most of the Iranians fought a war that lasted 8 years with Iraq? --because as bad as the religous government was, it wasnt nearly as bad as Suddam being their government.....
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
eagler finds justification in anything as long as his priest or preacher or whatever says he should.
hmm
that'd mean I haven't found justification in anything for the last 25 years considering the fact I have not consulted with a priest in over that period of time
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Originally posted by muckmaw
Your not American?
Well, I could not tell English is your second language, if that's anyt consolation...
Pfffft...Grun is more of an American than most Natural Born Americans I know..
Thanks! I was born in Croatia, a republic in the former Yugoslavia and I came here in 1989. Became a US citizen in 1995. :)
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Originally posted by Eagler
that'd mean I haven't found justification in anything for the last 25 years considering the fact I have not consulted with a priest in over that period of time
What you saying? God talks to you directly and you dont' need Priest to tell you who God wants you to kill next?
The last person to have that ability was Son of Sam... eehh..no wait GWB.
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Originally posted by Scootter
So not true!!
This is a sad sad comment on your part, you are smarter then this.
Christianity, Judaism and Islam are all religions that have grown from a common source of texts and traditions. That is why the three are called "the Abrahamic faiths." - Susan B. Thistlethwaite, president and professor of theology at Chicago Theological Seminary
(http://www.angelfire.com/fl/religions/Abraham1.jpg)
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
The christian god and the muslim god are one in the same.
Is that so? Please refer me to the page and verse in my Bible where I am to kill the infidels.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Thanks! I was born in Croatia, a republic in the former Yugoslavia and I came here in 1989. Became a US citizen in 1995. :)
I hope it has turned out better for you than most "other" people expect :)
And welcome to the most heathen, un-washed, lowest class of people on the planet....Fellow American...
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Well I can't have any respect for a guy who denies his own heritage and doesn't stop there, but also attacks it.
It's obvious Grun is bitter for his old life in ex-yugoslavia. It's quite understandable. I'd be too if I was subjected to live under communism.
He just doesn't understand that things aren't the same everywhere like it was down there.
As what goes for his hard work, I have no knowledge of that as I know him only by his UBB persona. I could have inserted a nasty joke about the level of education in the U.S. when the comment of Gruns language skills came out, but I won't. :p
I know it's childish and wrong for me to attack a person as I have been doing. The condescending attitude disgusts me and lowers my standard of posting aswell.
I apologise to you Grunherz, if you earned the respect of your fellow countrymen, it's good enough for me too. I'm burying the war hatchet even if it will remain one-sided. The same applies to the rest of you, whose general attitude I've detested.
I'm wasting WAY to much time spewing B.S. on this bulletin board.
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Originally posted by Rude
Is that so? Please refer me to the page and verse in my Bible where I am to kill the infidels.
Please, like wise do the same from the Koran.
Chapter and verse please.
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The three are basically the same more than they are different - practically they are one relgion, it really bothers me that the three brother religions are and have been fighting each other for so long.. :(
Oh well maybe some day it can stop...
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Originally posted by Rude
Is that so? Please refer me to the page and verse in my Bible where I am to kill the infidels.
hmm somewhere in there it says "thou shall not take another God before me"
But I do recall in the Koran a verse that says "tolerate all other religions, so that we may live side by side in peace"--a very rough english translation...
Just as I have heard a bible thumpin Baptist preacher say "anyone who isnt a baptist will certainly go to hell"
I know that some Islamic fanatics take the Koran out of context also....
fanatisicsm and politics is what causes the problems between the religions anyway--I say chuck em all and lets become buhdists....
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Same god, Rude but he's instigating this Infidel/Muslim thing because it's more interesting to him than Monday Night Football.
;)
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Christianity, Judaism and Islam are all religions that have grown from a common source of texts and traditions.
Abraham begatted a hateful mess of people... didn't he.
Jews, Christians, and Muslims - What a bunch of inbreds!
When is the last time there was a Taos or Budist suicide bomber?
Any religion with a fundamental tenet that it is right, it is the only right religion, and everything else is wrong... breads hate and intolerance.
All three religions are guilty of hate, murder, death, and the subjogation of millions of people.
The history of the Christian is perhaps the most egregious.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Well I can't have any respect for a guy who denies his own heritage
Does this mean you've finally figured out why a lot of us pretty much ignore your arguments?
:lol
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Christianity, Judaism and Islam are all religions that have grown from a common source of texts and traditions. That is why the three are called "the Abrahamic faiths." - Susan B. Thistlethwaite, president and professor of theology at Chicago Theological Seminary
(http://www.angelfire.com/fl/religions/Abraham1.jpg)
Anyone notice that they are all men? Wheres the women? OH NO dont tell was it? was it?............................. .............
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Originally posted by DmdNexus
Please, like wise do the same from the Koran.
Chapter and verse please.
Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98
On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161
Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191
Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39
Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. - 2:216
(different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.
..... martyrs.... Enter heaven - Surah 3:140-43
If you should die or be killed in the cause of Allah, His mercy and forgiveness would surely be better than all they riches they amass. If you should die or be killed, before Him you shall all be gathered. - 3:157-8
You must not think that those who were slain in the cause of Allah are dead. They are alive, and well-provided for by their Lord. - Surah 3:169-71
Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of God, whether he is slain or victorious, soon we shall give him a great reward. - Surah 4:74
Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil. - 4:76
But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. - 4:89
Therefore, we stirred among them enmity and hatred, which shall endure till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will declare to them all that they have done. - 5:14
O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54
Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme - 8:39
O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there are 20 steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish 200; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding. - 8:65
It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. - 8:67
Allah will humble the unbelievers. Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. - 9:2-3
When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5
Believers! Know that idolators are unclean. - 9:28
Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.
Whether unarmed or well-equipped, march on and fight for the cause of Allah, with your wealth and your persons. - 9:41
O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. - 9:73
Allah has purchased of their faithful lives and worldly goods, and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for His cause, kill and be killed. - 9:111
Fight unbelievers who are near to you. 9:123 (different translation:
Believers! Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you. (another source: ) Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers....
As for those who are slain in the cause of Allah, He will not allow their works to perish. He will vouchsafe them guidance and ennoble their state; He will admit them to the Paradise He has made known to them. - 10:4-15
Allah has cursed the unbelievers and proposed for them a blazing hell. - 33:60
Unbelievers are enemies of Allah and they will roast in hell. - 41:14
When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. - 47:4
(different translation: ) When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads, and when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly.
Those who are slain in the way of Allah - he will never let their deeds be lost. Soon will he guide them and improve their condition, and admit them to the Garden, which he has announced for them. - 47:5
Muslims are harsh against the unbelievers, merciful to one another. - 48:25
Muhammad is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. Through them, Allah seeks to enrage the unbelievers. - 48:29
Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate. - 66:9
The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. - 98:51
Fight them so that Allah may punish them at your hands, and put them to shame. (verse cited in Newsweek 2/11/02)
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
I'm wasting WAY to much time spewing B.S. on this bulletin board.
OMG knock me over with a feather lol--stop my sides cant handle it-----*GASP* *GASP* cant breath
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Isn't that special
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Originally posted by DmdNexus
Abraham begatted a hateful mess of people... didn't he.
Jews, Christians, and Muslims - What a bunch of inbreds!
When is the last time there was a Taos or Budist suicide bomber?
Any religion with a fundamental tenet that it is right, it is the only right religion, and everything else is wrong... breads hate and intolerance.
All three religions are guilty of hate, murder, death, and the subjogation of millions of people.
The history of the Christian is perhaps the most egregious.
When was the last time a Jew hijacked an airplane or carried out a suicide bombing?
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Toad, without context, that list is nearly meaningless. We could do the same thing with the bible and it would be equally meaningless.
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I dont deny my heritage - in fact I am far far more open about it than lets say, you.... :)
I have always said I was from Croatia/Yugoslavia, I have said that my experiences there and those of my family have shown me the problems inharent to communism and how such experiences shaped my outlook on society and politics and economics.
I dont see how you conclude that I'm unaware of other countries because of my criticizm of communism in communist countries and criticizm of blatant communists in others - In fact I dont even see how such an argument applies to this discussion at all. Are you suggesting I think that all the world was communist?
As for the BBS the GRUNHERZ persona is an exaggerated character meant to tweak people a little bit for all our amusement. It developed because I realized the BBS was not a place of subtlety and being real and balanced in discuission was not as much fun as being outrageous a bit - so grun is a bit of a darth vader evil figure that upsets blleding heart leftie characters.
Now that I met a lot of AH guys in person I might change that as now they are real people I have met, gotten to know and became friends with. :)
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Originally posted by Toad
Same god, Rude but he's instigating this Infidel/Muslim thing because it's more interesting to him than Monday Night Football.
;)
Wow...what was I thinking??? And all along, I thought it was those HEATHENS!!!
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Originally posted by Toad
Same god, Rude but he's instigating this Infidel/Muslim thing because it's more interesting to him than Monday Night Football.
;)
I didn't instigate it... Grun did.
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Originally posted by DmdNexus
What you saying? God talks to you directly and you dont' need Priest to tell you who God wants you to kill next?
The last person to have that ability was Son of Sam... eehh..no wait GWB.
I disagree --everyone has the ability to talk directly with God--without the interference of any book thumping smuck....and what they talk about isnt anyones business except for the one God told em to kill:eek:
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Originally posted by Toad
...
Allah has cursed the unbelievers and proposed for them a blazing hell. - 33:60
...
Let's take quotes from the bible one line at a time... taking out of context...
For example Lot sleeping with his daughters.... and God blessing them with the tribe of Moab...
Could one then say the bible promotes incest?
Remember the bible also says an eye-for-an-eye.... sort of in contrast with the turn-the-other-cheek teaching...
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where are the virigins??
toad you left out the stinkin virgins ;)
Martyrs for Sex and Paradise
by Naomi Ragen (August 30, 2001)
Time after time, the families of suicide bombers are interviewed by weepy reporters from CNN and BBC to explain the noble motivation of the boys who strap on explosives and behead little babies, pregnant women, and innocents of all kinds. One thing that the reporters miss, though, is that its not nationalistic fervor, or outrage at their “persecution” that is motivating his boys, as much as the Muslim religious teaching that promises each of them unlimited free sex with virgins in paradise as a reward for spilling innocent blood.
Bob Simon of Sixty Minutes interviewed Mohammed Abu Wardeh, whose Arabic remarks were translated: “God would compensate the martyr for sacrificing his life for his land. If you become a martyr, God will give you 70 virgins, 70 wives and everlasting happiness.”
Now, Arab-Americans are claiming in outrage that this is a mistranslation. Maher Hathout, a Muslim “scholar” with the Islamic Center of Southern California wrote in the Atlanta-Constitution: “There is nothing in the Koran or in Islamic teachings about 70 virgins or sex in paradise. This is ridiculous, and any true Muslim knows that.”
Oh, really?
Sheikh Abdul Hadi Palazzi, head of the Cultural Institute of the Italian Islamic Community, and a true Islamic scholar, had this to say: “The only ridiculous thing is that someone who claims to be an ”Islamic scholar” makes public declarations which prove beyond any possible doubt that he has never read the Commentary of Ibn Kathir and “Sunan” of Imam at-Tirmidhi, which are basic books for the knowledge of Islam! Unfortunately, this attribution of chairs to ignoramuses seems to be the rule in American Islamic Centers controlled by the fundamentalist network of the Muslim Brotherhood.
“According to Islam there are seventy two wives for every believer who is admitted to Heaven, and not only for a martyr. The proof is a hadith which is collected by Imam at-Tirmidhi in “Sunan” (Volume IV, Chapters on “The Features of Heaven as described by the Messenger of Allah”, Chapter 21: “About the Smallest Reward for the People of Heaven”, hadith 2687) and also quoted by Ibn Kathir in his Tafsir (Koranic Commentary) of Surah Rhman (55), ayah (verse) 72:
“It was mentioned by Daraj Ibn Abi Hatim, that Abu al-Haytham ‘Adullah Ibn Wahb narrated from Abu Sa’id al-Khudhri, who heard the Prophet Muhammad (Allah’s blessings and peace be upon him) saying, ‘The smallest reward for the people of Heaven is an abode where there are eighty thousand servants and seventy two wives, over which stands a dome decorated with pearls, aquamarine and ruby, as wide as the distance from al-Jabiyyah to San’a.”
Ibn Kathir explains in “al-Bidayah wa an-Nihayah” that al-Jabiyyah is the name of a suburb of Damascus.
That those seventy two wives are virgin is proved by the ayah 74 of the
same Surah:” No man or jinn has ever touched them before”.
In conclusion, whether or not the remarks on Sixty Minutes are a mistranslation isn’t the point. The point is this:Horny Arab teenagers are being convinced the way to sex in the puritanical Arab world (where fathers routinely murder daughters who are even suspected of losing their virginity) is through hate-filled mass murders. Too bad you missed that, CNN, BBC. Takes away from the “nobility” of the “sacrifice,” huh?
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Toad, without context, that list is nearly meaningless. We could do the same thing with the bible and it would be equally meaningless.
The Sura references are there for all of them I believe.
For example:
Yusuf Ali translation
9:1 A (declaration) of immunity from God and His Apostle, to those of the Pagans with whom ye have contracted mutual alliances:-
9:2 Go ye, then, for four months, backwards and forwards, (as ye will), throughout the land, but know ye that ye cannot frustrate God (by your falsehood) but that God will cover with shame those who reject Him.
9:3 And an announcement from God and His Apostle, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that God and His Apostle dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate God. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith.
9:4 (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for God loveth the righteous.
9:5 But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
9:6 If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of God; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.
9:7 How can there be a league, before God and His Apostle, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for God doth love the righteous.
9:8 How (can there be such a league), seeing that if they get an advantage over you, they respect not in you the ties either of kinship or of covenant? With (fair words from) their mouths they entice you, but their hearts are averse from you; and most of them are rebellious and wicked.
Enough context?
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Originally posted by NUKE
When was the last time a Jew hijacked an airplane or carried out a suicide bombing?
You're right the Jews (Israelis) don't hijack airplanes or comit suicide bombings...
They bulldoze houses of relatives of allegied PLO and Hamas members....
Not the member's houses, but their parents, brothers, uncles, sisters... etc. Guilt by association.... no due process either.
They grab land that isn't legally theirs by settling on it and building security fences around it.
They imprison people without due process... with out filing charges against them, with out giving them access to counsel.
They impoverish an entire culture and people to the point that they have no other way to fight back except to sacrifice their own lifes through suicide bombing.
They desercrate holy sites and monuments.
I don't think the Israelis are innocents here.
And I wonder why so many people have hated them, for so many thousands of years.
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While Islam is obviously the worst with terror now I think its unfair to characterize it or their vision of god and actual practice as particularly evil or agressive in comparsion to its brother relgions.
Lets not forget all the slaughters of the Bible, where god killed tens of thousands in the name of the jews.
Lets not forget the crusades.
Lets not forget the inquisition.
Lets not forget the christian witch trials and burnings.
Lets not forget the protestant/catholic wars.
Lets not forget tht fact that Israel was partially born out of jewish terror attacks.
Lets not forget that many of the holocaust guys were also christians.
Hell in croatia the ustashe were very close to the church while they killed people in camps.
Lets not forget the centuries of jewis persecution in europe.
Lets not forget that many relgios "good" christians people owned slaves in america.
Lets not forget many relgious good christians lynched blacks and murdered civil rights activists.
Lets not forget that tim McVeigh was a devoted christian and that the attack was in revenge of the branch dividian religious complex seige two years earlier on the same day.
Lets not forget the abortion killers.
Lets not forget the relgious slaughter in bosnia, where good christian serbs put thousands and thousands of muslims to death on a scale unseen since the holocaust.
Nobody is clean, all our hands are dirty with each other blood.
Allah has cursed the unbelievers and proposed for them a blazing hell. - 33:60
Finally it is widely accepted christian doctorine that one can only be saved by accepting Jesus Christ as lord. Everyone else, without, exception no matter what goes to hell to suffere in all eternity. Nice and fuzzy huh? And how is it different than that above?
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ROFLMAO Toad.
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Originally posted by DmdNexus
You're right the Jews (Israelis) don't hijack airplanes or comit suicide bombings...
They bulldoze houses of relatives of allegied PLO and Hamas members....
Not the member's houses, but their parents, brothers, uncles, sisters... etc. Guilt by association.... no due process either.
They grab land that isn't legally theirs by settling on it and building security fences around it.
They imprison people without due process... with out filing charges against them, with out giving them access to counsel.
They impoverish an entire culture and people to the point that they have no other way to fight back except to sacrifice their own lifes through suicide bombing.
They desercrate holy sites and monuments.
I don't think the Israelis are innocents here.
And I wonder why so many people have hated them, for so many thousands of years.
You equate Jews to Israelis? What country are Muslims from then?
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Israel is a jewish state... Perhaps you have not noticed?
(http://www.anyflag.com/religious/israel.gif)
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Is there anyone who thhinks we would have been better off if Gore had been pres during 9/11?
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Heh, Toad, I caught the irony in my post aswell but made it anyway.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Israel is a jewish state... Perhaps you have not noticed?
(http://www.anyflag.com/religious/israel.gif)
Gunhertz... eh that's the STAR of MUHAMMAD right?
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
The christian god and the muslim god are one in the same.
Unless Muslims recognize Christ as God then you are mistaken. Most Christians believe Christ is a third part of the Trinity making up the Godhead. Not only is this not an insignificant issue, it is one of the central tenets of Christianity.
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Grunherz I've spent quite a lot time in Croatia pre- and post war. Things have changed quite a lot down there after Tito.
All I have left is to say 'Jebem ti mater' which is 'go in peace' directly translated from croatian. ;)
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Sandman that's just silly. If it's the same God, something must be wrong, because he sure told those towelheads a bunch of different crap than what he told the rest of us. :)
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Finally it is widely accepted christian doctorine that one can only be saved by accepting Jesus Christ as lord. Everyone else, without, exception no matter what goes to hell to suffere in all eternity. Nice and fuzzy huh? And how is it different than that above?
Because the bible tells us so....
Christians are right and everyone else is wrong... and if you don't beleive us, we'll put the smack down on you and pinch your titties until you cry uncle!
And you know what... I always thought... Christ was a pacifist....
turn the other cheek... love thy enemy....
Isn't there a commandment...
"Thou shalt not kill."
And the fine print says...
"unless you're killing an abortionist..."
"unless you're killing a muslim..."
"unless you're killing an evil dictator..."
"unless you're killing a sodomite..."
"unless you're killing a heathan savage Indian..."
"unless you're killing an urban minority or latin american drug trafficer..."
"unless you're a pedofile priest who's just looking for some afternoon fun..."
"unless you're dog tells you too..."
"unless you have a 'W' in your name..."
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Originally posted by AKIron
Unless Muslims recognize Christ as God then you are mistaken. Most Christians believe Christ is a third part of the Trinity making up the Godhead. Not only is this not an insignificant issue, it is one of the central tenets of Christianity.
I'll rephrase for ya... the christian old testament god and the god of islam are one in the same.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
While Islam is obviously the worst with terror now I think its unfair to characterize it or their vision of god and actual practice as particularly evil or agressive in comparsion to its brother relgions.
Damnit... I agree with Grun again..
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Originally posted by DmdNexus
Because the bible tells us so....
Christians are right and everyone else is wrong... and if you don't beleive us, we'll put the smack down on you and pinch your titties until you cry uncle!
And you know what... I always thought... Christ was a pacifist....
turn the other cheek... love thy enemy....
Isn't there a commandment...
"Thou shalt not kill."
And the fine print says...
"unless you're killing an abortionist..."
"unless you're killing a muslim..."
"unless you're killing an evil dictator..."
"unless you're killing a sodomite..."
"unless you're killing a heathan savage Indian..."
"unless you're killing an urban minority or latin american drug trafficer..."
"unless you're a pedofile priest who's just looking for some afternoon fun..."
"unless you're dog tells you too..."
"unless you have a 'W' in your name..."
You mis quoted the commandment but then that doesn't surprise me. Your lack of knowledge of the bible and God are astounding yet you rattle off like some kind of expert.
You don't believe in God yet use him and his word to make your points. What a joke.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Grunherz I've spent quite a lot time in Croatia pre- and post war. Things have changed quite a lot down there after Tito.
All I have left is to say 'Jebem ti mater' which is 'go in peace' directly translated from croatian. ;)
I have forgetten a few pharases since I left but that is not one of them - perhaps you should look into getting a new croatian-english dictionary. :)
What were you doing in croatia? Tourist or business/black market?
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Toad, without context, that list is nearly meaningless. We could do the same thing with the bible and it would be equally meaningless.
no you can't
find text in the King James version that has the same meaning
in any context
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Originally posted by DmdNexus
Because the bible tells us so....
Christians are right and everyone else is wrong... and if you don't beleive us, we'll put the smack down on you and pinch your titties until you cry uncle!
And you know what... I always thought... Christ was a pacifist....
turn the other cheek... love thy enemy....
Isn't there a commandment...
"Thou shalt not kill."
And the fine print says...
"unless you're killing an abortionist..."
"unless you're killing a muslim..."
"unless you're killing an evil dictator..."
"unless you're killing a sodomite..."
"unless you're killing a heathan savage Indian..."
"unless you're killing an urban minority or latin american drug trafficer..."
"unless you're a pedofile priest who's just looking for some afternoon fun..."
"unless you're dog tells you too..."
"unless you have a 'W' in your name..."
Please dont turn what I said into something to support your crusade againd christianity and apparently president bush too. Please. :)
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Originally posted by Apache
You mis quoted the commandment but then that doesn't surprise me.
I do believe it is "thou shalt not kill"
How about giving us the correct quote.
And tell me which bible you took the quote from: good news, king james, etc.
The hipocricy is in the "Christians"... the ones that are eager to kill other people and still call them selves Christians.
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excuse me-the king james version was rewritten so badly it doesnt even come close to the "original" bible---He left out a complete chapter because he didnt like it----and changed a good many chapters to fit his "view" to control his population......
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I used to believe that Jew, Christians and Muslims shared the same "God". After reading "The Arabs in History" by Bernard Lewis I don't anymore. I think the Old Testament leads us to believe that (IIRC) one of Abrahams sons, the dark one, was the forebearer of the Arabs. Even if that is correct, that doesn't have anything to do with the roots of the Muslim religion. Its not as if Muhammad was a Jew before he created his religion. The re-interpretation of everything he said or could have possibly thought long after he died by self serving relatives and people looking for power has created what we know as Islam. In my opinion...for what its worth.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Please dont turn what I said into something to support your crusade againd christianity and apparently president bush too. Please. :)
I wouldn't worry about it Grun, I doubt there are many still reading his rants.
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there is only one Divine
there has been several messengers of that Divine
the trouble starts from that point on with man's interpretation of that message
the radical "interpretation" of that message TODAY lies at the feet of the Islamic group
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I think there is definitely a cancer on islam today - perhaps even at the highest levels. Though of course I'm not sure how applicable that terminolgy is as I'm not exactly sure of the "organizational chart" of Islam - shia/sunni divide notwithstanding - do they have anything approaching a Pope like central high voice of authority or are they split apart like protestants?
Certainly the radical factions and their interpretation of Islam have been causing a great deal of trouble across the world in the past 40-50 years.
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[Psychodelic eerie music begins to play]
Originally posted by Eagler
there is only one Divine
there has been several messengers of that Divine
the trouble starts from that point on with man's interpretation of that message
the radical "interpretation" of that message TODAY lies at the feet of the Islamic group
Oh boy! Suddenly, Eagler, all your posts begin to make sense.
You have a clean brain. It's been washed.
Are you a Branch Davidian too?
I've always wondered...
Starting with the premis...God is perfect... God is all powerful... God is all knowing..
Everything that God creates is... perfect...
God spoke to man...
How?
Through a book that is reprinted and transcribed by man?
God...
being able to communicate through burning bushes...
Directly to prophets...
And able to create humans who can communicate through... speach... writing... art... facial expresions... radio... TV... digital computers... sound... light...and many many other ways..
well... gee.. such a perfect and loving God decides to only talk with a few aramaic hash smokig hippies up until 33 AD... and then suddenly stops talking to everyone....
Doesn't make sense
But then again God works in Mysterious ways.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
I'll rephrase for ya... the christian old testament god and the god of islam are one in the same.
I like analogies, here's one for ya.
Two cultures living on the same planet. Both think the world is flat. One day one of the cultures discovers the world isn't flat but the other culture doesn't believe it. Do they both live on the same world?
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Grun the trend (? courant de pensée in french ) you are trying to look up is Wahhabisme
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Its shamefull to know that other decendents of europeons are following a religion made by the crazy sand hole dwellers of the mideast, forsakeing their own heritage.
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Originally posted by AKIron
I like analogies, here's one for ya.
Two cultures living on the same planet. Both think the world is flat. One day one of the cultures discovers the world isn't flat but the other culture doesn't believe it. Do they both live on the same world?
dont let the baptists know about the round world thing. They shoot people on site for saying pi isnt 3.
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Originally posted by AKIron
I like analogies, here's one for ya.
Two cultures living on the same planet. Both think the world is flat. One day one of the cultures discovers the world isn't flat but the other culture doesn't believe it. Do they both live on the same world?
It's a fairly poor analogy. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are all faiths. There is no proof, no discovery. There is only belief.
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Originally posted by drone
excuse me-the king james version was rewritten so badly it doesnt even come close to the "original" bible---He left out a complete chapter because he didnt like it----and changed a good many chapters to fit his "view" to control his population......
I used that just so we don't see some hippy dip incense Bible as an example.
;)
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
It's a fairly poor analogy. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are all faiths. There is no proof, no discovery. There is only belief.
And belief is all we have.
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Originally posted by DmdNexus
I do believe it is "thou shalt not kill"
How about giving us the correct quote.
And tell me which bible you took the quote from: good news, king james, etc.
The hipocricy is in the "Christians"... the ones that are eager to kill other people and still call them selves Christians.
Nice try.
The Commandment, from the Hebrew text is "Thou shalt not murder". Ratsah, not harag.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
It's a fairly poor analogy. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are all faiths. There is no proof, no discovery. There is only belief.
yet... for centuries... the "Christian" Catholics supressed scientific discoveries because they were contrary to their beliefs...
Such as the absurd belief that the Earth was the center of the universe and the sun and stars revolved around it.
Do religions still try to supress scientific research - yep.
How about STEM CELL research which may actually help find a cure for paralysis, and alzheimers.
Religions are more than just beliefs... it breds Kooks, radicals, fanatics.... such as suicide bombers willing to die for Allah.
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Originally posted by Apache
Nice try.
The Commandment, from the Hebrew text is "Thou shalt not murder". Ratsah, not harag.
Really... because in my book it says "Thou shalt not kill"
What's the difference between murder and kill?
And who decides the difference?
And let's get this straight... Jesus is ok with Killing... just not Murder right?
So turn the other cheek and love thy enemy.... can also be arbitrarily applied... just like "thou shalt not kill"...
Except... when the government says it's ok... for example... when Sadam says it's ok to kill someone... or GWB says it's ok to kill the muslims...
In those cases... it's not murder... right? It's just killing... which isn't murder.... because after alll God's behind it. so it's ok.
And the guy that's dying... Ahkmed... who was forced into an Iraqi uniform at gun point... who probably doesn't support Sadam... who has nothing to do with the Baath party...just at the wrong place at the wrong time... just trying to stay alive.
He get's "Killed"... it's ok... because our country is Christian and his is Muslem... and his leader was evil.
I love how Christians can rationalize killing other human beings.... and still call them selves Christians.
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Originally posted by DmdNexus
I love how Christians can rationalize killing other human beings.... and still call them selves Christians.
Ah no I don't - that was a lie. It makes me sad.
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they certainly have fun with it. killing folks and all.
somhow the irony is lost on them. guess it has to be for them to believe it. invisable friend and all.
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Originally posted by DmdNexus
You're right the Jews (Israelis) don't hijack airplanes or comit suicide bombings...
They bulldoze houses of relatives of allegied PLO and Hamas members....
Not the member's houses, but their parents, brothers, uncles, sisters... etc. Guilt by association.... no due process either.
They grab land that isn't legally theirs by settling on it and building security fences around it.
They imprison people without due process... with out filing charges against them, with out giving them access to counsel.
They impoverish an entire culture and people to the point that they have no other way to fight back except to sacrifice their own lifes through suicide bombing.
They desercrate holy sites and monuments.
I don't think the Israelis are innocents here.
And I wonder why so many people have hated them, for so many thousands of years.
Just so I am clear on this.....
Americans can fight a war on terror but Israelis are not allowed to? You need to check your history a bit my friend and investigate a little bit more some of the root causes of the Arab/Israeli conflict.
As to the hating of Jews for thousands of years, the State of Israel was created in 1947. Even if your right in saying that people hate Jews because the State of Israel exercises its right to self preservation, that only accounts for the last 56 years.
And the whole imprisonment without due process thing...Israel must have learned that from the Americans....except the Israelis have no Gitmo to call their own.
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Originally posted by MJHerman
Just so I am clear on this.....
Americans can fight a war on terror but Israelis are not allowed to? You need to check your history a bit my friend and investigate a little bit more some of the root causes of the Arab/Israeli conflict.
As to the hating of Jews for thousands of years, the State of Israel was created in 1947. Even if your right in saying that people hate Jews because the State of Israel exercises its right to self preservation, that only accounts for the last 56 years.
And the whole imprisonment without due process thing...Israel must have learned that from the Americans....except the Israelis have no Gitmo to call their own.
There were several UN resolutions one in 1947 which partitioned the land. But officially Israel became a nation in May of 1948. http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH00hb0
I knew that before I had to look it up - you ought to check you history of Israel as well.
let me refer you to the following link which talks about Jewish group which were illegally taking land from the Palestinians during 1947.
http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/study_collections/israel/large/1947.htm
http://www.palestinemonitor.org/factsheet/History_June2002.htm
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_oppose_immigration.php
Isarael has every right to fight a war on terrorist... however, the Jews took that land from the Palestinians by acts of terrorism.. such as car bombs, pipe bombs, home made machine guns....
In other words... through violence.
The Bristish stepped out of the conflict, and the UN stepped in to broker the peace.
Ever since Israel has been illegally grabbing land from the Arabs.
The UN has been attempting to pass resolution after resolution to sanction Israel against their settlements in internationally recognized Palestinian settlements... and the US vetos these resolutions... the US should have a dog collar around it's next and the leash leads to its Israel handlers.
Israel is annexing land which is not theres..
So are the Palestinians terrorists? yes now many of them have become this...
they have the best lands taken from them (not unlike the American Indian saga), they ahve been impoverished, been made 3rd class citizens, and have been pushed into a corner by the Israelis...
The Palestinians are a desparate people... because the israelis made them this way...
At some time the violence must stop both sides are guilty of terrorism and inhumane acts.
The side that has the greatest obligation to stop is the side with the greatest might - that would be Israelis. Not only should they stop the physical violence but also the land grab which is a different form of agression.
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DmdNexus
have you hugged a terrorist today??
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Originally posted by DmdNexus
Let's take quotes from the bible one line at a time... taking out of context...
For example Lot sleeping with his daughters.... and God blessing them with the tribe of Moab...
Could one then say the bible promotes incest?
Remember the bible also says an eye-for-an-eye.... sort of in contrast with the turn-the-other-cheek teaching...
Only seems in contrast to those who haven't studied the Bible.
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The side that has the greatest obligation to stop is the side with the greatest might - that would be Israelis. Not only should they stop the physical violence but also the land grab which is a different form of agression
Ummm HOLD THE PHONE!
here's were the difference between a terrorist and a nations right to defend itself come into play
What you say there Dmdnexus has been tried AND TRIED AND TRIED AND TRIED.......and EVERY TIME Israel pulls there troops out or pulls out there tanks or says no more fighting..... a school bus or a cafe or a shoping mall filled with woman and children whoGETS BOMBED
how about this:
"the side that has the greatest obligation to stop has neither to do with might or will, but rather a desire in ending wrongfull acts apon both nations and preservation of peace!"
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Murder is illegal killing.
Deuteronomy
13:6 If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son, or your daughter, or the wife of your bosom, or your friend, who is as your own soul, entice you secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which you have not known, you, nor your fathers;
13:7 of the gods of the peoples who are round about you, near to you, or far off from you, from the one end of the earth even to the other end of the earth;
13:8 you shall not consent to him, nor listen to him; neither shall your eye pity him, neither shall you spare, neither shall you conceal him:
13:9 but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first on him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
I Samuel
15:3 Now go and strike Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and don't spare them; but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.
Exodus
22:18 "You shall not allow a sorceress to live.
35:2 'Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be a holy day for you, a Sabbath of solemn rest to Yahweh: whoever does any work in it shall be put to death.
Leviticus
20:27 "'A man or a woman that is a medium, or is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones; their blood shall be upon them.'"
21:9 "'The daughter of any priest, if she profanes herself by playing the prostitute, she profanes her father: she shall be burned with fire.
24:16 He who blasphemes the name of Yahweh, he shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall certainly stone him: the foreigner as well as the native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death.
But what in blue blazes does any of this have to do with the current US administration?
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Problem is Thrawn that there just aren't too many Bible Thumper sects out there strapping TNT around their waists and blowing up Israeli Pizza Parlors. Or loading their minivans with TNT and RPG's and driving into Iraqi police stations and pushing the button. Or crashing airplanes into George Carlin shows to kill the blasphemers.
Seems like a pretty big difference to me, but of course some folks will disagree.
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Originally posted by Toad
Seems like a pretty big difference to me, but of course some folks will disagree.
Well, generally I wouldn't be one of them. I'm not about to argue that at this point in history Christians are killing more people, in the name of there religion, than muslims are. Although some are.
I will argue that Muslims in general aren't driven to murder by their religion. To say otherwise I think does a disservous to ourselves. It does a disservice because it offers a simple explanation to why our (our being the "civilised world") enemies act. "Why?". "Oh, their religion.". This will lead to very dangerous tunnel vision. And this is why generalisation, or relying on the fallacy of inductive reasoning is a really bad idea.
Just like Christianity, Jeedaism or what have you, Islam has their murderous fanatics. If there are more, one also has to look at the socio-economic conditions that lead to this. After all Muslisms aren't the only one to employ suicide bombers as a terrorist tactic. The Tamil Tigers invented the suicide bomber, they aren't Muslim.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
The Tamil Tigers invented the suicide bomber, they aren't Muslim.
Tamil Tigers pre-date Kamikazi?
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Tamil Tigers pre-date Kamikazi?
Was this nitpick necessary? The sentance before gives the context of suicide bombing as a terrorist tactic.
"After all Muslisms aren't the only one to employ suicide bombers as a terrorist tactic. The Tamil Tigers invented the suicide bomber, they aren't Muslim."
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Islam - and really all religions - are often also a very conveniant sacred rallying cry for support by individuals with far more profane political, social and economic agendas...
Admittedly this is a bit of a strech but I will venture out and say that Osama Bin Laden is no more representative of a good muslim than were Jim Baker and his wife Tammy representatives of good Christinas - yet they both influenced very devout belivers to do stupid things harful to themselves and only for the benefit of the leaders whose calls they answered...
Its worth considering especially since we know how Bin Laden and the Taliban and AlQaeda leadership partied and lived lavishly while they preached something else entirely to their followers.
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Protester
(http://www.hobymarx.com/images/ss.jpg)
(http://www.hobymarx.com/images/kkk.jpg)
(http://www.hobymarx.com/images/bush.jpg)
Good Christian Counter Protester
(http://www.hobymarx.com/images/god.jpg)
Someone get some Fundamentalist Muslim protest sign pic and we can compare them all. This way we can decide whos right.
These were posted on wwiiol ot forum...... They arent mine.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Was this nitpick necessary? The sentance before gives the context of suicide bombing as a terrorist tactic.
"After all Muslisms aren't the only one to employ suicide bombers as a terrorist tactic. The Tamil Tigers invented the suicide bomber, they aren't Muslim."
jeeze...sorry I didn't use an emoticon...:( :( :eek: :cool: :( ;) ;) :confused: ;) :(
besides... this BBS is not necessary
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
What you say there Dmdnexus has been tried AND TRIED AND TRIED AND TRIED.......and EVERY TIME Israel pulls there troops out or pulls out there tanks or says no more fighting..... a school bus or a cafe or a shoping mall filled with woman and children whoGETS BOMBED
You're right.... Israel has stopped the military violence....only to be met with continued suicide bombings.
But why?
Because they did not stop the econmic violence.... and the land grab aggression....
What were the Palestinian complaints?
"Stop the Israelis building settlements on Palestinian land"
Israel has been waging a war of economic against the Palestinians since 1948.
Which is the means of impoverishing your enemy by...
Taking away their resources, demoralizing their population, lowering their standard of living, subjugating their pupulation to menial jobs.
Compare Israeli standard of living to the the Palestinians...
Compare Israeli economic culture to the Palestinians...
Last I heard, Palestinian unemployment is between 40 and 60%.
Many depend upon access to Israel for jobs.... what kind of jobs? Low paying... low tech jobs. High paying and hi-tech jobs go to Israelis.
The Palestinians are a desparate people... and they've turned to desparate means... suicide bombing.
I don't agree with their tactics... but I can understand how they got to where they are.
The Israelis were the first to start the agression and have not ever stopped - even when the guns are silent, they continue to wage economic warfare.
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There is a certain amount of truth here in my opinion.
The Israelis are not innocent.
You hear all the media about the suicide bombers, but quietly, in the backround, Israel is still building and maintaining the settlements.
If the Israelis are as desperate for peace as they say they are, why do they keep antagonzing the Palastinians with the settlements? Are they that important? Or are we seeing Land Grab greed on both sides?
Do the Israelis believe once they take the settlements down, the Palastinains will simply demand something else?
There are groups on both sides of the issue that would prefer to see the opponent exterminated.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
Do the Israelis believe once they take the settlements down, the Palastinains will simply demand something else?
yep - the elimination of Israel -every man woman and child- that's all
that is the goal of the pal terrorist - nothing less - that is why the bombings increase whenever peace raises its weary head
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Originally posted by muckmaw
There is a certain amount of truth here in my opinion.
The Israelis are not innocent.
You hear all the media about the suicide bombers, but quietly, in the backround, Israel is still building and maintaining the settlements.
If the Israelis are as desperate for peace as they say they are, why do they keep antagonzing the Palastinians with the settlements? Are they that important? Or are we seeing Land Grab greed on both sides?
Do the Israelis believe once they take the settlements down, the Palastinains will simply demand something else?
There are groups on both sides of the issue that would prefer to see the opponent exterminated.
I will be the first to say that the settlements shouldn't be there at all. They do antagonize and incite the lawful owners of those lands, and in that sense the territories which were occupied in 1967 are occupied territories. Israelis have no business living there, and as far as I am concerned, if a Palestinian desires to self-detonate himself or herself within the confines of the West Bank or Gaza, so be it. In as much as Palestinians are radical in the methods they pursue, the Israeli settlers are more so.
But understand this....the Palestinians are not out to reclaim the West Bank and Gaza, or even to reclaim the lands that were on the Arab side of the fence following the 1947 partition; they are out to eradicate Israel as a state.
So yes, it is a "land grab" on both sides. If the settlements were dismantled tomorrow, the bombings would continue. So what incentive is there for an Israeli to extend any concessions?
Put another way...if the US suddenly had pulled all of its troops out of the Middle East, do you think that Osama grievances with the United States would have suddenly evaporated and all of radical Islam would have instantly gotten together for a group hug with Uncle Sam?
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Originally posted by Eagler
yep - the elimination of Israel -every man woman and child- that's all
that is the goal of the pal terrorist - nothing less - that is why the bombings increase whenever peace raises its weary head
Yes it's easier to understand, hate, and kill when world views are boiled down to simpleton views like this.
A palestinian baby isn't born with hate in their hearts... it's cultivated by the environment... and environment created first by the Israelis, and then by the Palestinians... and cultivated by the hatred of both sides.
The violence stops when both sides are ready to stop it.
I think the security wall is a very good ideal.. but it should run along the established legal boarders and the Israeli settlers should be moved out of Palestinian lands.
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Originally posted by MJHerman
they are out to eradicate Israel as a state.
Who are "they"?
That sounds like a very big generalization.
Every Palestinian? No that's not true.
Many Palestinians want peace...
Many Israelis want peace...
Many Arab nations have already made peace with Israel and have recognized their existence as a state.
Israel took all the best farm land and land with resources away from the Palestinians...
How would you like to be forced off your ancestrial farm land which was fertile and rich and given a piece of dirt that you can't grow anything on?
Another issue are the fresh water aquifer - Israel already grabbed the best ones... and that's partly why they are buliding in the occupied territories... there's a huge fresh water aquifer underneath it, and they are trying to grab it.
The public likes to think simply... because that's as much as they can understand...
The story behind the story is always more complex.
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many pals want peace
I'm sure they do - they just have to show it
turn in the radical next door holding the jihad meetings & makin the bomb belts
stop the bombings and the worlds weight goes against Israel - till then Israel has free reign to protect itself
it starts with the Pals controling themselves and ends with Israel making concessions - not the other way around
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Originally posted by Eagler
stop the bombings and the worlds weight goes against Israel - till then Israel has free reign to protect itself
It starts with the Pals controling themselves and ends with Israel making concessions - not the other way around
The Palestinians have stopped the bombing before... yet Israel broke the peace by continuing with the economic warfare and the settlers and bulldozing houses.
Every one seems to have a short memory of history.
Out of work... no job... no way to buy food...
Economic warfare is just as disabilitating as guns and bombs.
"Put down your weapons first and we'll make peace"
Yet the Israelis are still choking the life out of the Palestinians economically... This is an act of agression.
The Palestinians are trying to survive.
The Israelis are not at the same survival level... that's why they have the power and the obligation to stop the agression first.
They need to agree to stop not only the military attacks but the economic warfare.
In recent years the Palestinians have gotten better equiped, in the early 90's, all Palestinians had were rocks... which were met by Israeli bullets.
When it comes to a body count.... more Palestinians have died in this conflict than Israelis. Alot of them are women and children.
Now that Palestinians have suicide bombers.. yes... it makes them look like they are crazy extremist... they weren't always this way.
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Originally posted by DmdNexus
The Palestinians have stopped the bombing before... yet Israel broke the peace by continuing with the economic warfare and the settlers and bulldozing houses.
Every one seems to have a short memory of history.
Out of work... no job... no way to buy food...
Economic warfare is just as disabilitating as guns and bombs.
"Put down your weapons first and we'll make peace"
Yet the Israelis are still choking the life out of the Palestinians economically... This is an act of agression.
The Palestinians are trying to survive.
The Israelis are not at the same survival level... that's why they have the power and the obligation to stop the agression first.
They need to agree to stop not only the military attacks but the economic warfare.
In recent years the Palestinians have gotten better equiped, in the early 90's, all Palestinians had were rocks... which were met by Israeli bullets.
When it comes to a body count.... more Palestinians have died in this conflict than Israelis. Alot of them are women and children.
Now that Palestinians have suicide bombers.. yes... it makes them look like they are crazy extremist... they weren't always this way.
Replace "Palestinian" with "Al Qaeda" and "Israel" with "United States" in your post and see how comfortable you are in making the same statements.
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they weren't always this way
I'm sorry but the history of Palestenian and other Islamic extremist terror goes back almost 40 years, well before the current spate of mid-east violence...
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Originally posted by MJHerman
Replace "Palestinian" with "Al Qaeda" and "Israel" with "United States" in your post and see how comfortable you are in making the same statements.
You're arguement is absurd.
Here is how absurd your logic is:
If a black man rapes your sister, that means all black men are rapists and should be thrown in jail for rape.
Palestine and Al Quada.. different situations... differen circumstances.
If Iraq had any connection with Al Qauda the US would be justified for attacking Iraq.
1. The Bush Administration has denied that there are any connections between Al Quada and Iraq.
2. Al Quada and 9/11 was not the justification used to attack Iraq.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I'm sorry but the history of Palestenian and other Islamic extremist terror goes back almost 40 years, well before the current spate of mid-east violence...
Your point being? What?
let me guess... what you're implying...
Because they are ALL Islamic extremists... there's no solution...
throw up your hands... give up...if they are Palestinian they must be terrorists?
meanwhile it's ok to do what to these "Terrorists"?
Exterminate every man, woman, and child who happens to be Palestinian?
Isn't that a rather extreme attitude?
People aren't just born extremists... their life circumstances and cultures motivate them to take up those positions...
Israeli had a lot to do with cultivating the terror they are not suffering from.
Why do so many people hate America?
Why does America support so many dictators and terrorists... Pinochet... the Shar of Iran... OBL... Sadam (yes we did... Mr. Evil him self)
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What were you doing in croatia? Tourist or business/black market?
We actually have a house in the islands. We're related 2nd gen through marriage.
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Originally posted by DmdNexus
You're arguement is absurd.
Here is how absurd your logic is:
If a black man rapes your sister, that means all black men are rapists and should be thrown in jail for rape.
Palestine and Al Quada.. different situations... differen circumstances.
If Iraq had any connection with Al Qauda the US would be justified for attacking Iraq.
1. The Bush Administration has denied that there are any connections between Al Quada and Iraq.
2. Al Quada and 9/11 was not the justification used to attack Iraq.
You missed my point my friend. I was trying to point out that many people on this planet have grievances.
For example, using your argument, Palestinian terrorists are somehow justified in specifically targeting civilians because of all the bad things that Israel has done to them over the last few decades (Although you conveniently omit who has tried their hardest to eradicate Israel over those same decades, but I digress).
Now, translate your argument to a different situation and here are the absurd results that you get my friend:
1. The U.S. inner city population - Predominantly African-American, and much poorer than the suburban, predominantly white population. Is the inner city population therefore justified if they resort to violence to address the perceived wrongs which they perceive have been committed against them?
2. The U.S. Indian population - Their land was stolen from them centuries ago. I don't recall any Native Americans blowing up their local Wal Mart.
3. Islamic fundamentalism - Part of the grievance package is U.S. "imperialism". Whether that is correct or not it is a perception (Rich Uncle Sam taking advantage of Arab oil, "occupying" Saudi Arabia, etc.). So knocking down two buildings with 3,000 souls would seem to be acceptable.
Since I'm tiring of your pro-terrorist/anti-Israel rant, I will chalk your position up to a simple observation on my part:
Those who kill American civilians are terrorists.
Those who kill Israeli civilians are freedom fighters who are just getting even for all the bad things that Jews have done to them.
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I'm sorry but the history of Palestenian and other Islamic extremist terror goes back almost 40 years, well before the current spate of mid-east violence...
Try 100 years.
But the start of it was when the Brits promised the Arabs an Arab state for their help in fighting turkey in WW1.
The Arabs liberated Damascus and the Brits went back on their word.
The Balfour Declaration:(this was after already telling the Arabs they would be in favor of an Arab state for their help against the Turks)
During the First World War, British policy became gradually committed to the idea of establishing a Jewish home in Palestine (Eretz Yisrael). After discussions in the British Cabinet, and consultation with Zionist leaders, the decision was made known in the form of a letter by Arthur James Lord Balfour to Lord Rothschild. The letter represents the first political recognition of Zionist aims by a Great Power.
Foreign Office
November 2nd, 1917
Dear Lord Rothschild,
I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet.
"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."
I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.
Yours sincerely,
Arthur James Balfour
Not only would there be no Arab state but the French would occupy Syria and the Brits occupied what today is Israel and IIRC Trans-Jordan.
After ww2 the Jews demanded that Britain live up to Balfour. When the Brits didn’t the Jews began their own terror campaign and killed many British people and soldiers until the Brits pulled out.
Once the Jews got their state they the went after more land that was apart of the deal.
You can search all the specifics but if you wonder why they hate the west it’s easy to guess that after several generations of lies and exploitation they had enough.
Also Jewish terrorists attacked Arabs after ww2. Search for that. It’s the Jews who brought "terrorism" to the Palestinians not the other way around. Just because they now hide their terrorism behind their "military" doesn’t make it any less "terroristic".
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
besides... this BBS is not necessary
:D
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Originally posted by MJHerman
Since I'm tiring of your pro-terrorist/anti-Israel rant, I will chalk your position up to a simple observation on my part:
Those who kill American civilians are terrorists.
Those who kill Israeli civilians are freedom fighters who are just getting even for all the bad things that Jews have done to them.
You want to simplify the conversation... because when the details of the Pal/Israel conflict comes out... it's too complex for you.
it's easier to reduce it to... pure hate.... or religion or something very ambiguous... like they are terrorists and evil... they like to kill just because they like to kill - that logic is BS.
Objectify the enemy - makes it easier to not see them as human... and then you dont' feel bad when you kill them.
That's how Hitler was able to kill as many as he did.. and he even passed laws to make his kind of murder "legal"
Is that it?
The problem is much more... it's about land, it's about water, it's about culture, economics, it's about power... and for some about religion and revenge.... it's a cycle of hate and death... that will perpetuate and spread... violence begats violence..
When does it stop?
How does it stop?
Kill every Palestinian... will that solve the problem?
Kill every Israeli... will that solve the problem?
No..
Understanding the needs of both sides will.
Understanding that the Palestinians and the Israelis both need to feel safe and secure with in their respective boarders... and then meeting that need will bring peace.
It's not just about stopping the violence... that's pure ignorance to think that.
The economic war the Israelis are waging on the Palestinians needs to stop also.
And that's my point... even when there was no violence between the two for, I don't know the eact time... I think there was a period of a few years during Clintons admin... Israel was still grabbing land and waging an economic war.
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Looks like some here haven't heard of the "Geneva Accord".
"'Geneva Accord' aimed at rescuing Mideast peace
Last Updated Mon, 13 Oct 2003 18:53:46
JERUSALEM - After two years of dialogue, senior Palestinian political figures have finalized a symbolic peace pact with left wing Israeli politicians.
The move was initiated by Israeli opposition members to show peace negotiations between Israelis and Palestinians are possible.
But members of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's hard-line cabinet dismissed the talks and accused the participants of harming Israel's national interests.
The group consists of intellectuals and politicians from both sides. They have been holding secret talks for two years and say they have reached an agreement. Details are scarce. The two sides say the document will be published next month. But reports say the agreement contains significant concessions by both sides.
It is being called the 'Geneva Accord' and its authors say it will be signed in Switzerland in the next few weeks. It is the culmination of secret talks between Israeli and Palestinian peace activists and politicians, including Yosi Beilin, a former Israeli justice minister, and Yasser Abed Rabbo, a former Palestinian information minister. The Swiss Foreign Ministry mediated and financed the talks.
The deal has no official status, because those involved are not in power. But it is full of the kinds of compromises that have been so elusive in the past.
Under this proposed deal, Palestinians would give up the so-called 'right of return.' They would recognize Israel as 'the state of the Jewish people.' They would prevent terrorist attacks and disarm all militant groups.
Israel would return to its 1967 borders, withdrawing from most Palestinian lands, except for a few of the larger settlements.
Jerusalem would be divided, with Arab neighborhoods in east Jerusalem becoming part of a Palestinian state. A disputed holy site in old Jerusalem, known as the Temple Mount to Jews and as Haram-esh-Sharif to Muslims, would be under Palestinian sovereignty, but monitored by an international force. That international force would also monitor all border crossings.
Although some Palestinian insiders deny foregoing the right of return, the Palestinian Authority says it would accept such a deal.
"I am for any dialogue that leads to peace. In that sense, our view is different from Israel which views these people as traitors even though these are people who signed peace deals in the past," said Palestinian cabinet minister Nabil Shaath.
But news of the accord got a hostile reception from the Israeli government. Prime Minister Ariel Sharon says those responsible are trying to bring down his government during "a time of war."
The 'Geneva Accord' will be released with great ceremony in Switzerland on Nov. 4.
Written by CBC News Online staff "
http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/10/13/genevaaccord031013
People on both sides do want, and are working towards peace.
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Nuke: I like the moon
DmdNexus: Your point being what?
So you are saying you hate Mars?
I guess people are supposed to throw up their hands and forget about Jupiter?
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Originally posted by NUKE
Nuke: I like the moon
DmdNexus: Your point being what?
So you are saying you hate Mars?
I guess people are supposed to throw up their hands and forget about Jupiter?
In this example a better response would be, "Why do you like the moon?"
But Nuke, you could avoid that by giving supporting arguements for your statement.
Nuke: I like the moon. I like it because...
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Originally posted by Toad
Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98
On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161
Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191
Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39
Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. - 2:216
(different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.
..... martyrs.... Enter heaven - Surah 3:140-43
If you should die or be killed in the cause of Allah, His mercy and forgiveness would surely be better than all they riches they amass. If you should die or be killed, before Him you shall all be gathered. - 3:157-8
You must not think that those who were slain in the cause of Allah are dead. They are alive, and well-provided for by their Lord. - Surah 3:169-71
Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of God, whether he is slain or victorious, soon we shall give him a great reward. - Surah 4:74
Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil. - 4:76
But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. - 4:89
Therefore, we stirred among them enmity and hatred, which shall endure till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will declare to them all that they have done. - 5:14
O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54
Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme - 8:39
O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there are 20 steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish 200; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding. - 8:65
It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. - 8:67
Allah will humble the unbelievers. Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. - 9:2-3
When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5
Believers! Know that idolators are unclean. - 9:28
Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.
Whether unarmed or well-equipped, march on and fight for the cause of Allah, with your wealth and your persons. - 9:41
O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. - 9:73
Allah has purchased of their faithful lives and worldly goods, and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for His cause, kill and be killed. - 9:111
Fight unbelievers who are near to you. 9:123 (different translation:
Believers! Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you. (another source: ) Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers....
As for those who are slain in the cause of Allah, He will not allow their works to perish. He will vouchsafe them guidance and ennoble their state; He will admit them to the Paradise He has made known to them. - 10:4-15
Allah has cursed the unbelievers and proposed for them a blazing hell. - 33:60
Unbelievers are enemies of Allah and they will roast in hell. - 41:14
When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. - 47:4
(different translation: ) When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads, and when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly.
Those who are slain in the way of Allah - he will never let their deeds be lost. Soon will he guide them and improve their condition, and admit them to the Garden, which he has announced for them. - 47:5
Muslims are harsh against the unbelievers, merciful to one another. - 48:25
Muhammad is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. Through them, Allah seeks to enrage the unbelievers. - 48:29
Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate. - 66:9
The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. - 98:51
Fight them so that Allah may punish them at your hands, and put them to shame. (verse cited in Newsweek 2/11/02)
knocked that one clear into the next state. Nice job.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
The christian god and the muslim god are one in the same.
uhhh.. no, However when Allah starts claiming Jesus as his son and that he has all the attributes that God the Father gave him, we might have to rethink that.
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Originally posted by JBA
knocked that one clear into the next state. Nice job.
How do you figure?
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Originally posted by -ammo-
uhhh.. no, However when Allah starts claiming Jesus as his son and that he has all the attributes that God the Father gave him, we might have to rethink that.
As a christian you belive Jesus is the son of God. Jews and Muslims dont think he is the son of the very same god. Who is right?
Is the jewish god, as in the old testament god of abraham and Moses etc, the father of christ?
If so then its the same god for all three relgions.
Also who is more important, christ as son of god, or big daddy god himself?
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The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. - 98:51
How did this Jerry Fallwell quote make it into the Koran?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
How did this Jerry Fallwell quote make it into the Koran?
:rofl
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Originally posted by DmdNexus
Your point being? What?
let me guess... what you're implying...
Because they are ALL Islamic extremists... there's no solution...
throw up your hands... give up...if they are Palestinian they must be terrorists?
meanwhile it's ok to do what to these "Terrorists"?
Exterminate every man, woman, and child who happens to be Palestinian?
Isn't that a rather extreme attitude?
People aren't just born extremists... their life circumstances and cultures motivate them to take up those positions...
Israeli had a lot to do with cultivating the terror they are not suffering from.
Why do so many people hate America?
Why does America support so many dictators and terrorists... Pinochet... the Shar of Iran... OBL... Sadam (yes we did... Mr. Evil him self)
Ohh man, I love it how people, me too sometimes, automatically take any disagreement and blow it up like you did in this post...
Anyway what I was saying is that palestenians have used terror for decades even before the recent explosion of settlements and all these dire econoic privations. If you remember back in the day, when he wasnt occupied with writing his nobel acceptance speech Mr Arafat was quite a terrrorist... So I think it's clear to me that the palesnians, unlike say gandhi, mandela or mlk chose the path of violence rather early. My greatest hope for peace is that they give up violence, because while tanks and helicopters of liberal democratic countries (and frankly thats what israel is) are great at defeating hordes of armed men and blowing up bomb factories they are pretty useless against unarmend non violent resistance. If the palestenians, and I mean all of them all the hizbullah/jihad groups and plotical figures, used non violence in striving for realistic goals, like for example not demaning destruction of israel, this would be over in short order and they would get a state and and gain mountains of goodwill even from america. I feel the emphasis is on them as its very hard to sympathyze with people who deliberatly target school busses.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
We actually have a house in the islands. We're related 2nd gen through marriage.
Interesting... :)
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Originally posted by -ammo-
uhhh.. no, However when Allah starts claiming Jesus as his son and that he has all the attributes that God the Father gave him, we might have to rethink that.
The hipocracy of the christan religion --
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Originally posted by drone
The hipocracy of the christan religion --
There is no hipocracy in my statement, maybe a little sarcasm though. They cannot be the same God, because of the different doctrines.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Is the jewish god, as in the old testament god of abraham and Moses etc, the father of christ?
If so then its the same god for all three relgions.
No. Wrong. If you look into it you'll find that its not the same "GOD". As I tried to explain earlier, the Arabs didn't use the Old Testament as a basis for Islam. Just because the old testament claims that the Arabs are a decendent of Abraham 1)doesn't make it so. 2)doesn't meen they had Him in mind when they created or were "devinely inspired" to creat Islamism.
They worshipped all kinds of stuff. After most them were united more or less under a central rule they became more or less all Islamic. It didn't happen over night or as a direct progression from say Judaism to Islamism.
Suprised the hell out of me. I had always assumed the same thing. And it doesn't have anything to do with "doctrin" either. The Jews and the Christian religions share little in doctrin yet claim the same God.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Ohh man, I love it how people, me too sometimes, automatically take any disagreement and blow it up like you did in this post...
Anyway what I was saying is that palestenians have used terror for decades even before the recent explosion of settlements and all these dire econoic privations. If you remember back in the day, when he wasnt occupied with writing his nobel acceptance speech Mr Arafat was quite a terrrorist... So I think it's clear to me that the palesnians, unlike say gandhi, mandela or mlk chose the path of violence rather early. My greatest hope for peace is that they give up violence, because while tanks and helicopters of liberal democratic countries (and frankly thats what israel is) are great at defeating hordes of armed men and blowing up bomb factories they are pretty useless against unarmend non violent resistance. If the palestenians, and I mean all of them all the hizbullah/jihad groups and plotical figures, used non violence in striving for realistic goals, like for example not demaning destruction of israel, this would be over in short order and they would get a state and and gain mountains of goodwill even from america. I feel the emphasis is on them as its very hard to sympathyze with people who deliberatly target school busses.
I agree with you. My statements are rhetorical for a reason - to show the absurdity of looking at the Pal/Israel issue as a simplely a black and white issue. It is not. The Israelis are just as equally culpable.
Arafat is a terrorist..
and so is Sharon.
I'm amazed he wasn't charged with war crimes by the Hague regarding his involvment with the massacre at Jenin.
Basically, Sharon had his troops surround the refugee camp, preventing any one coming in (like reporters and the IRC), and locked all the escape routes, and then opened the gates for the Christian militia to walk in and do the killing.
For those of you unaware of this here are some
http://www.counterpunch.org/boyle0606.html
http://english.pravda.ru/main/2001/07/05/9360.html
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/feb2002/sab-f22.shtml
http://search.csmonitor.com/durable/2001/07/30/p7s1.htm
I'm amazed because the US had intercepts of communications between Sharon's units and the Christian Militia co-ordinating this massacre. Those intercepts are probably degauzed by now.
Won't be able to do a FOIA until 2013...
If the Palestinians totally disarm.... it will be tough for the Israelis to justify both their military and economic war against the Palestinians.
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Counterpunch, Pravda and the World Socialist Webiste are not what I would call viable, reasonable or blanced information sources... I dont know the reputation of the Christian Science Monitor but I do know thae church that runs it has a history of odd behavior and belifs that even lead to deaths of its members.
I think that you should be more careful and thoughtful in choosing your sources, for example one should not cite the KKK for racial statistics...
That said what Sharon did at Sabra and Shatila was an obvious nazi style warcrime made all the more shameful considering he was Jewish..
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Originally posted by Lizard3
No. Wrong. If you look into it you'll find that its not the same "GOD". As I tried to explain earlier, the Arabs didn't use the Old Testament as a basis for Islam. Just because the old testament claims that the Arabs are a decendent of Abraham 1)doesn't make it so. 2)doesn't meen they had Him in mind when they created or were "devinely inspired" to creat Islamism.
They worshipped all kinds of stuff. After most them were united more or less under a central rule they became more or less all Islamic. It didn't happen over night or as a direct progression from say Judaism to Islamism.
Suprised the hell out of me. I had always assumed the same thing. And it doesn't have anything to do with "doctrin" either. The Jews and the Christian religions share little in doctrin yet claim the same God.
Then why does Islam consider Jesus a prophet of Allah?
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[
and so is Sharon.
I'm amazed he wasn't charged with war crimes by the Hague regarding his involvment with the massacre at Jenin.
LOL, maybe because there was no masacre at Jenin.
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Originally posted by NUKE
LOL, maybe because there was no masacre at Jenin.
Aproximately 800 refugees killed, mostly elderly, women and children.
It's in the links.
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While we are on the topic of war crimes in the Middle East, where is the call to bring the leaders of Hezbollah before the The Hague and charge them with war crimes?
I'm all for having Sharon stand trial for his actions (or lack thereof) at the camps in Lebanon in 1982....so long as Arafat and his cronies are standing in the prisoner dock right next to him.
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Originally posted by DmdNexus
Aproximately 800 refugees killed, mostly elderly, women and children.
It's in the links.
You are incorrect as usual.
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Originally posted by DmdNexus
Aproximately 800 refugees killed, mostly elderly, women and children.
It's in the links.
If it's in the links it must be true.....
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Nexus you seem to be confusing Jenin a few years ago (no massacre) with the Sabra and Shatila massacres in the early 1980s Lebanon war.
You see thats the problem with the unreliable info sources you rely on, they tend to give a misleading picture of events.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Nexus you seem to be confusing Jenin a few years ago (no massacre) with the Sabra and Shatila massacres in the early 1980s Lebanon war.
You see thats the problem with the unreliable info sources you rely on, they tend to give a misleading picture of events.
You're absolutely right ... I'm thinking of Sabra and Sahtila massacres which were in 1983.
Busy day ... got discombobulated.
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Palestinians confirm
no Jenin 'massacre'
Study shows 52 total casualties, most were 'armed combatants'
no massacre (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=33562)
"What we have got here is possibly 54 bodies found so far, with possibly 20 or 30 unaccounted for but we can't really verify these figures until the whole site is cleared
BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1957862.stm)
International human rights groups that have visited Jenin found no signs of a massacre but said Israeli forces might have committed war crimes such as the indiscriminate bulldozing of civilian homes and failing to treat the wounded.
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Originally posted by DmdNexus
You're absolutely right ... I'm thinking of Sabra and Sahtila massacres which were in 1983.
Busy day ... got discombobulated.
Yeah sure, until Grun mentioned these places you probably never heard of them. You meant Jenin. Jenin was hyped by the media as a massacre...until the facts got in the way.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
How did this Jerry Fallwell quote make it into the Koran?
LOL! :D
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Toad, without context, that list is nearly meaningless. We could do the same thing with the bible and it would be equally meaningless.
LOL BULLCHIT:rofl :rofl
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Originally posted by mrblack
LOL BULLCHIT
How so?
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Originally posted by DmdNexus
Busy day ... got discombobulated.
Must be really boring, every day exactly the same as the previous day.
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Originally posted by Toad
Must be really boring, every day exactly the same as the previous day.
A small crudely built dwelling or shelter usually made of wood!!!
And to think...I used to believe you to be a nice person:)
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Originally posted by Rude
A small crudely built dwelling or shelter usually made of wood!!!
Would that be a SHACK!
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Originally posted by -ammo-
They cannot be the same God, because of the different doctrines.
The Jewish, Islamic and Christian faiths all worship the God of Abraham.
Three blind men describe an elephant.
First one feels a leg and descibes the elephant as like a tree.
Second one feels the trunk as described the elephant as like a snake.
Third feels the tail and desribes the elephant as like a rope.
It is still the same elephant.
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Originally posted by -ammo-
They cannot be the same God, because of the different doctrines.
How many different different Doctorines exist in christianity alone?
I guess we can start with the big divisions:
Roman Catholic
Eastern Orthodox
Anglican
Protestant
There are 4 Chrisstian gods right there!
Other christian gods favor the following groups:
The Amish
The Brethren
Children of God
Christadelphians
Christian Science
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons)
Community of Christ: Formerly the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints:
The Family (David Berg), Family of Love
The "Garbage Eaters": common derogatory name for The Brethren
Gnosticism
Jehovah's Witnesses
Messianic Judaism & "Jews for Jesus"
Mormons (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints)
The Process
Progressive Christianity
Quakers (Society of Friends)
Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints: Now the Community of Christ
Seventh-Day Adventist Church
Two by Twos ("The Jesus Way", "The Church with no Name", etc)
Unification Church
Unitarian-Universalism (About 10% of UU members consider themselves to be Christian)
United Pentecostal Church International
Unity Church in Canada
Unity School of Christianity
Urantia Book
Worldwide Church of God
The Way International
I also wanted to post a list of all known Protestant denominations, however there are nearly 30,000 of them and I dont want to waste your time.
And before any of you tell me that they are all not overly dissimilar in "doctorine" and that they tolerate each other plase read this quote from Pat Robertson.
"You say you're supposed to be nice to the Episcopalians and the Presbyterians and the Methodists and this, that, and the other thing. Nonsense. I don't have to be nice to the spirit of the Antichrist."
--Pat Robertson, The 700 Club, January 14, 1991
Nice huh? I bet there are 30,000 real genuine christian "gods" up there just for the protestants.
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Originally posted by AKIron
Would that be a SHACK!
SHACK!
:aok
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Then why does Islam consider Jesus a prophet of Allah?
Brownie points:D
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Brownie points with whom?
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
The Jewish, Islamic and Christian faiths all worship the God of Abraham.
Three blind men describe an elephant.
First one feels a leg and descibes the elephant as like a tree.
Second one feels the trunk as described the elephant as like a snake.
Third feels the tail and desribes the elephant as like a rope.
It is still the same elephant.
And then there's the fourth blind man that no one speaks about...
guess what he stepped in.
And when he did, ther other three blind men realized ... no matter which god they believed in, their god's watermelon still stunk....
However, the 3 othordoxed blind men were ashamed of the fourth blind man and what he discovered to be the truth about all their gods, and they shunned him and warned their followers to not be like this man, Cynic Heritic Blasphemus. They exiled the fourth blind man and he wondered the desert for 40 days and 40 nights, mingling among the unwashed infidels and non believers... rubbing bellies with the natives...smoking a little pot... groving to the vibes...shacking down with the whack ladies...never quite getting hip with the lingo... and wearing a hell of alot of cologne to cover up that stink.
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Originally posted by DmdNexus
And then there's the fourth blind man that no one speaks about...
guess what he stepped in.
And when he did, ther other three blind men realized ... no matter which god they believed in, their god's watermelon still stunk....
However, the 3 othordoxed blind men were ashamed of the fourth blind man and what he discovered to be the truth about all their gods, and they shunned him and warned their followers to not be like this man, Cynic Heritic Blasphemus. They exiled the fourth blind man and he wondered the desert for 40 days and 40 nights, mingling among the unwashed infidels and non believers... rubbing bellies with the natives...smoking a little pot... groving to the vibes...shacking down with the whack ladies...never quite getting hip with the lingo... and wearing a hell of alot of cologne to cover up that stink.
WOW you just discribed a Raghead:D
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Originally posted by DmdNexus
And then there's the fourth blind man that no one speaks about...
guess what he stepped in.
And when he did, ther other three blind men realized ... no matter which god they believed in, their god's watermelon still stunk....
However, the 3 othordoxed blind men were ashamed of the fourth blind man and what he discovered to be the truth about all their gods, and they shunned him and warned their followers to not be like this man, Cynic Heritic Blasphemus. They exiled the fourth blind man and he wondered the desert for 40 days and 40 nights, mingling among the unwashed infidels and non believers... rubbing bellies with the natives...smoking a little pot... groving to the vibes...shacking down with the whack ladies...never quite getting hip with the lingo... and wearing a hell of alot of cologne to cover up that stink.
Ahhh nexus' insatiable crusade aginst all religion marches on....
:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Ahhh nexus' insatiable crusade aginst all religion marches on....
:rolleyes:
Got your turbon wrapped too tight again, GRun :lol
My crusade doesn't require bearing a cross, talking with an annoying shrill, or sacrificing my life in martydom....
I'm just waiting for the commet to arrive so I can hitch a ride off this rock... and leave all you nematodes with the purple cool aid! :rofl
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Dont wait for the comet, drink the kool aid now!
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Originally posted by mrblack
WOW you just discribed a Raghead:D
no he didnt, read it again. follow the quotes back to the original question too
ed: BTW, this is a neat subject. I always thought Islam was an "extension" of christianity that claimed Jesus a prophet and not the son of god.
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Again It was a joke something that you seemed to have missed.
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Originally posted by mrblack
Again It was a joke something that you seemed to have missed.
I havent a clue how you interpreted what he said as a "raghead". If that was really meant as a joke, I doubt no one would have the same interpretation and actually laughed.
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Originally posted by Octavius
I havent a clue how you interpreted what he said as a "raghead". If that was really meant as a joke, I doubt no one would have the same interpretation and actually laughed.
I laughed... I thought it was funny...
go phish!
:lol
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Originally posted by DmdNexus
However, the 3 othordoxed blind men were ashamed of the fourth blind man and what he discovered to be the truth about all their gods, and they shunned him and warned their followers to not be like this man, Cynic Heritic Blasphemus.
The elephant parable used has nothing to do with relgious dogma. It was used to illustrate differences in perception. If one would remove one's blinders, one would realize this.
Here's another:
A Rabbi and a Priest buy a car together and it's being stored at the Priest's house. One day the Rabbi goes over to use the car and he sees him sprinkling water on it. The Rabbi asked, ''What are you doing?'' The Priest responded, ''I'm blessing the car.'' So the Rabbi said ''Okay, since we're doing that....'' and takes out a hacksaw and cuts two inches off the tail pipe.
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I find it fascinating that all three of these great historic religions belive in the same god, even if in so many different ways and from different perspectives and even if they all hate each other like Pat Robertson and the nutty islamists (comparsion just on hate) apparently do. If somehow, somebody figured out a way to stop people abusing (Bin Laden) and also hating (Nexus) religion I think this could be a glorious opportunity to unify so much of humanity as a community of at the same time like minded and diverse cultures and peoples...
You know, the more I think about it that Pat Robertson quote really pisses me off, really does, what a mean spirited pice of crap he is to say such things to people who just as devoutly belive in the same god as he does... Dammit what the hell is his problem...
Its funny because realistically I think the idea of "world peace" is ludicrous and unrealistic on so many levels but there is just something so appealealing about it it ever work out... I really hope we do one day figure it out...