Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Charon on October 27, 2003, 02:17:47 PM
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There have been a lot of aircraft laundry lists posted lately -- a veritable index listing from some Aircraft encyclopedia. While I hope that all the significant and insignificant WW2 planes are added someday, from a practical standpoint what are the critical holes in the planeset? What are the FIVE most pressing NEWadditions. Here’s the criteria:
1. The plane had to have seen at least somewhat significant service in WW2 -- No G55 perk planes.
2. It has to be basically competitive in the MA (on the order of a MC 205 or FW-190A8) -- no hanger queens.
3. It has to fill a reasonable role in the CT (most likely a late-war CT setup, given the preceding criteria).
4. You have to explain your choices.
Here’s my list:
1. Ki-84. Performance with low octane fuel not enough to be perked, usage numbers significant, great plane for the MA and great plane to fill out late war PAC CT setups.
2. DO-217. The most significant “heavy bomber” from a country that did not promote strategic bombardment. The He-177 would be interesting as would the Ju-188, but the DO217 offers more than adequate MA performance with much greater historical significance for CT and scenarios.
3. TU-2. A toss up between this and the more historically significant Pe-2. High speed late war bomber that saw sufficient service with adequate CT usefulness but primarily a MA choice.
4. B-25. Adequate performance for the MA and attractive solid nose gun packages (I’m partial to the heavy .50 armed variants over the pack howitzer models). Used by most allies on all fronts in large numbers, with more conservative performance compared to the B-26. Parafrag and skip bombing would be neat additions. Variants could be B-25C, Pappy Gunn B-25C, B-25J glass-nosed and hard-nosed.
5. I-16/24. It may seem like an odd addition, but it would be a top turn and burner in the MA (with performance in recent tests regarded as being superior to the Hurricane 2) and armed with two cannons. It would a significant early war Russian fighter for CT usage. It would also be a useful start for a Spanish Civil War planeset (I-16/10) which I fully support along with Arlo :)
How about the top FIVE missing variants from the existing plane set? These would likely be shifted more towards mid-war/early war and CT importance since the existing variants are typically late war optimized.
1. P-38f/g/h I think one example, say the G to split the difference would be a representative “early” P-38 that would be sufficiently competitive in the MA, open up mid war CT and scenarios and saw significant service.
2. ME-109K4. While similar to the G-10, I would like to see what impact the aileron trim tabs had on high speed roll performance. Saw significant service, competitive and CT useful. Would it be a perk plane?
3. Ju-88 A2. Significant early war bomber much closer in performance to BOB era fighters.
4. MC-200. The only “significant” early (or late war, for that matter) Italian fighter missing from the planeset.
5. F4U1A. Perhaps the top performing “basic” Corsair.
Charon
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Well, Italy, Japan, and most other country do need Fighter/Bomber/Tank/Floatplane/PT Boat really bad than we have now.
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He 162 (and then a Meteor; come on...)
He III
B 25
Early Fiats (North Afica; Malta and Eastern front)
T 34
Low alt Spit (XII; XVIII?)
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Why those specific choices as related to the criteria I set, seeker?
He 162 (and then a Meteor; come on...) [insignificant service records]
He III [Historic, but low end for MA]
B 25 [agree]
Early Fiats (North Afica; Malta and Eastern front) [How significant were they, in comparison to the MC200?]
T 34 [Doesn't fly very well]
Low alt Spit (XII; XVIII?) [The XVI/LF would be great IMO, but perhaps lightly perked]
[edit: the purpose of this thread, and maybe it's just too much thinkin' for this bbs, is to develop a practical list of "must haves" vs. "wouldn't it be neats." My wouldn't it be neat list would be quite different in a few areas from the must have list, but would likely not be the best immediate use of HTC development time.]
Here are the basic criteria again for New additions, with more leeway for new variants from the existing planeset:
1. The plane had to have seen at least somewhat significant service in WW2 -- No G55 perk planes.
2. It has to be basically competitive in the MA (on the order of a MC 205 or FW-190A8) -- no hanger queens.
3. It has to fill a reasonable role in the CT (most likely a late-war CT setup, given the preceding criteria).
4. You have to explain your choices.
Charon
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Charon,
A note about the F4U-1A. According to F4UDOA the F4U-1 that we have now actually hits the F4U-1A performance numbers pretty closely. What we need is the F4U-1's FM to be fixed. Having the F4U-1A added would be nice, but with both the F4U-1 and F4U-1D it is not a huge gap in the planeset.
I also think you meant the Tu-2S not the Tu-4 as a bomber option. I agree that the Pe-2 would make a better choice as with three variants the VVS would have a bomber for each stage of the war.
I mostly agree with your new aircraft list, though I would prefer the Ju188A-2 over the Do217.
My varients list would be:
A6M3b
Bf109G-6/AS or Bf109G-14
P-38F or P-38H
Mosquito B.Mk XVI
Spitfire Mk VIII
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OK; maybe the Jets are a bit esoteric.
I agree that the He III brings nothing new to the MA other than historic interest; but then that could equally be said of the B 25. The Lanc carries more; and the Fort carries it higher. What need is there for a B 25? (though I want one :) )
My understanding of the Fiats is that they were "very significant"; but I'll leave that to the real historians. They're certainly more significant than the late war Italian perk planes; I'm sure we can agree :)
The T 34 because we need at least some choice for an opposition to the Panzer (and hopefully one day a Nip tank as well). It's true that the MA is "non aligned"; but most squads have some semblance of historicity; The Whermacht needs a counter part. It's one of AH's more obvious "points of imbalance".
I'd like a low alt Spit. The whole question of perks is a whole new thread on game play. I certainly think much, much more could be done with them (perks); and I hope that onnce the enormous programming effort of AH2 is done; more attention could be paid to "the game engine"; both with what CM's can do in the various specialist arenas; and in how the MA caters for the "MA player".
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I-16/24?! And it would a significant early war Russian fighter for CT usage?
Well, then we surely need this one!
(http://www.btinternet.com/~jj_b/vaw/images/b239.jpg)
Highest kill ratio of any WW2 plane type and also highest scoring single airframe.
:D
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1 KI-43 oscar
2 KI-84 frank
3 T-34 Rusian tank
4 sherman firefly
5 G4M betty
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Oy...
Here are the basic criteria again for New additions, with more leeway for new variants from the existing planeset:
1. The plane had to have seen at least somewhat significant service in WW2 -- No G55 perk planes.
2. It has to be basically competitive in the MA (on the order of a MC 205 or FW-190A8) -- no hanger queens.
3. It has to fill a reasonable role in the CT (most likely a late-war CT setup, given the preceding criteria).
4. You have to explain your choices. Just to show some thought has gone into the process.
What are the handful of NEEDED planes that HTC could add with the next patch to be useful in both the MA and the CT. If there would only be five new planes added and five new variants added EVER, which ones would be the best? Which ones would offer the most bang for the buck? A low alt spit... good selection. Brewester? Hell, I think the Finnish virtual avaition community should be rewarded for its dedication, regardless of how well the plane would fare in the MA :) KI-43? As valid as the I-16 on my list I suppose, but the peashooters would negate the extra turning ability IMO.
Since HTC aren't going to add 138 new planes and variants with the next patch, which ones should be at the very top of the list and WHY?
Thanks for the considered responses Karnak and Seeker.
Charon
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common wealth boomerang- why? well, it is the only austrailian plane that i feel would truly be a threat. It could be used in the CT because its a mid to late war plane. It would also not be a hanger queen because people would not know exactly what to expect upon encountering one (sort of like running into a FM2 or F4F). I belive it would be a great addition to AH2:aok
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A variant of the Joseph Stalin Tank would be a nice counterpart to the Tiger. Also, the Panther would be great all around, but I'd personally settle for a t-34 (although an accurately modeled site would probably make it an acquired taste).
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Top five most needed, no doubt should be devoted to the plane set with largest holes. Let's see.. our entire pre-1943 VVS set is missing, and Japanese mid/late war plane set has gaping holes.
Ok.. the agenda is:
1. The plane had to have seen at least somewhat significant service in WW2
2. It has to be basically competitive in the MA
3. It has to fill a reasonable role in the CT
4. You have to explain your choices.
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1. Ki-84-Ia(late JP)
Is the Spitfire and the N1K2 competitive? Heck, those two planes share combined kills of 20% in the MA! Then people are gonna love the Ki-84-Ia. Performance specs and maneuverability is simular to the Spitfire MkIX, and acceleration characteristics would be simular to a La-5FN. It is also the single missing "late war plane" amongst all countries(except Italy).
2. Yak-7A(early VVS)
Early war soviets used a mix of planes - among them are the Yaks. The early Yak choices available, would be the Yak-1 or the Yak-7 - the two-seat trainer Yaks were modified into a single-seat fighter to fill the shortage of Yak-1s. It would be pretty much limited in the MA, but a goode opponent among the early war planes - Bf109E-4, SpitMkIa, A6M2, C.202 and etc.
3. I-16/24(early VVS)
Another early war VVS plane. Alternative choice was the LaGG-3 - especially because the current plane set lacks most Lavochkin series fighters which saw use through out the whole war in the East. However, the popularity of the I-16 is immense among people who know them. It's funky shape, popularity, amazing maneuverability, plus the ability to carry rockets for variety of use, and scenario possibilities such as the Spanish Civil War, and usefulness in the CT, comes as a huge advantage over the LaGG.
4. Yak-1B(early/mid VVS)
The "first light" of Yak series fighters, which began to prove itself as an amazing competition to the Luftwaffe. Speed and climb characteristics a little short of the Bf109G-2, but maneuverability better than the F-4. It's historic role is significant, as the first real threat to the Luftwaffe, and it also provides a perfect mid-war plane for the VVS. Particularly useful in setups upto 1942. This mid-war plane evolves from the Yak-1 line.
5. Yak-9D(mid VVS)
The most numerously produced VVS fighter. It seems there are a lot of Yaks in VVS setups, but that is only natural. As many variants there are with all those 109s and 190s, the Yaks also evolved step-by-step to meet them. It's performance characteristics would be simular to our Yak-9T, but armed with the better performing ShVAK 20mm cannons.
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The Yak-9D could also be somewhat 'modified' from what we already have. Basically, just as late Bf109s have an option to mount either 20mm or 30mm cannons, we could offer the same choice to the Yak-9T. If it flies with the 20mms, it'd be a Yak-9D, and if it flies with a 37mm, it becomes a Yak-9T.
So, if in that case, the Yak-9D, is "incorporated" into the existing plane set as described above, then the alternative fifth choice for me would be:
5. P-39N
Large quantities of the P-39s have been lend-leased to the Soviet Union. It's specs are little lacking compared to mid-war Bf109s such as the G-2, but it has a potential of becoming a very characteristic and competitive plane. Another plus side is, this plane belongs to a US plane set, but also has significant meaning to the VVS plane set - most of all VVS aces have been born from the P-39 - Glinka brothers, Fadeyev, Pokryshkin, you name it.
Additionally welcome, would be the Ki-43, Ki-44, Ki-45,
A6M3, Mig-3, LaGG-3, P-38G.
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Top five most needed, no doubt should be devoted to the plane set with largest holes. Let's see.. our entire pre-1943 VVS set is missing, and Japanese mid/late war plane set has gaping holes.
For the CT only I agree. But for both the MA and CT only the Ki-84 would apply from your list. A Lagg-3 would see less use than a P-40E in an MA environment and be another hanger queen.
If you had to pick five "common" WW2 planes that would fill out the CT but still be on the performance level of an MC 205 or FW-190 A8 in the MA, which would those be?
Charon
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Charon, according to your agenda, there are no planes left that can be modelled.
All of the 'competitive' and 'common' have been already modelled - Spit9, N1K2(well.. this one ain't common..), La-7, P-51D, Typhoon, F4U-1, Fw190D-9, Bf109G-10 etc.
None of the planes that are left out currently, will be able to beat any of the above listed late war freaks in any of their traits, with maybe the exception of better turning radius or smaller plane size.
Ofcourse, only the exception, the Ki-84.
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Let's face it - the only planes that are left to be modelled, are the hangar queens or CT/ToD planes. HTC began it's approach to modelling planes from the late years, and there are no more competitive planes left.
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Originally posted by Charon
Oy...
Here are the basic criteria again for New additions, with more leeway for new variants from the existing planeset:
1. The plane had to have seen at least somewhat significant service in WW2 -- No G55 perk planes.
2. It has to be basically competitive in the MA (on the order of a MC 205 or FW-190A8) -- no hanger queens.
3. It has to fill a reasonable role in the CT (most likely a late-war CT setup, given the preceding criteria).
4. You have to explain your choices. Just to show some thought has gone into the process.
What are the handful of NEEDED planes that HTC could add with the next patch to be useful in both the MA and the CT.
The problem is that I don't agree that #2 serves a useful purpose for criteria (but I do appreciate you supporting the idea that an SCW enviroment - planeset and terrain - would be a practical addition to AH). The MA has all the planes it will ever need. All of the uber fighters (including the best and only widely used Jet). One of the best bombers of the war (the B-17 - arguments for the B-24 serve no purpose for it's addition to the MA). Two of the best tanks of the war are already in the MA (although there is a good argument in favor of the T-34 being superior, it wouldn't be enough of an advantage to warrant it's addition to the MA).
The only practical reason for adding planes and vehicles to AH now is to fill the scenario/TOD gaps. That precludes the model's "uber-factor" in the MA.
Given the advances AHII apparently will have regarding it's ground terrain, I see it only natural to add one or two Allied heavy tanks to facilitate a beefed up, more immersive groundwar
setting for scenarios.
- Sherman/Sherman variant
- T-34
Another factor to consider is .. the competition (be that as it may). Planes that are featured in Warbirds or ... even IL2 ... may make the deciding factor to a player when choosing what game community to join. Therefore adding planes they have modeled (or at least the more commonplace ones from the war) only seems natural if one wishes to appeal to potential cutomers who are comparing products:
- Ki-84
- B-25
- G4M
- P-39
- B-24
- A6M3
- I-16
After this stage is reached ... then perhaps AH can start adding planes that other sims have overlooked to give the planeset a "more expansive" appeal. I, however, don't hold with the idea that all potential players are looking for late/post-war rides to make the game more interesting. But we already know what I'm promoting there. :)
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BTW Charon, Im pretty sure that Aces High dont need a Russian TU-4 bomber, because I dont think TU-4 never been in the combat like P-36 "Peacekeeper" and TU-4 is a clone of Boeing B-29 "Superfortress" which Tupolev company copy the B-29 "Superfortress" sometime either before or after the WWII ended. The Russian almost use TU-4 into the combat during the Cold war but the bomb raid has cancel the attack and return the base, TU-4 almost enter the combat.
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The 3 b-29s that spurred the TU-4 project only reached Moscow in 1945, with the first first TU-4 being completed in 1947. According to several obscure but nonetheless reliable sources, WWII was over by then.
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Originally posted by Capt. Pork
The 3 b-29s that spurred the TU-4 project only reached Moscow in 1945, with the first first TU-4 being completed in 1947. According to several obscure but nonetheless reliable sources, WWII was over by then.
Yup, One is Hap Arnold Special which Tupolev want that take all the part off and study them before copying the bomber. The rest of the 2 B-29 bomber using them as a training, they later were scrap after cold war i believe.
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My point was that the TU-4 is pretty much out of the running for AH because it was, in effect, the first Soviet Cold War bomber, rather than the last Soviet bomber of WWII. Of course, if HTC got REALLY ambitious, they might start a Cold War adjunct to the game... That's a whole new issue that we should probably avoid, however, as it will inevitably re-raise the question of A-bombs in AH.
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The next aircraft update will face over a year’s pent up no new plane tension. All I’m trying to put together here (my agenda) is a list of planes that would minimize the whine factor by offering something useful for everyone. Remember the outrage over the Val and Kate, etc with that release?
Charon, according to your agenda, there are no planes left that can be modelled… Let's face it - the only planes that are left to be modelled, are the hangar queens or CT/ToD planes. HTC began it's approach to modelling planes from the late years, and there are no more competitive planes left.
I generally agree. The Ki-84 is the only gaping fighter omission. But if the next release after 1.5 years centers around the Yak-7 (a personal fav. for some reason) and the Lagg-3, well, you know as well as I how most of the player base will receive the news. By the same token, I don’t think it’s appropriate to have something like the G-55 etc. (which many in the MA would likely prefer) before the Lagg-3 or KI-43.
The problem is that I don't agree that #2 serves a useful purpose for criteria (but I do appreciate you supporting the idea that an SCW enviroment - planeset and terrain - would be a practical addition to AH). The MA has all the planes it will ever need. All of the uber fighters (including the best and only widely used Jet). One of the best bombers of the war (the B-17 - arguments for the B-24 serve no purpose for it's addition to the MA). Two of the best tanks of the war are already in the MA (although there is a good argument in favor of the T-34 being superior, it wouldn't be enough of an advantage to warrant it's addition to the MA).
It’s not all about you, Arlo :) Or me. I don’t even fly bombers or fly in the CT that much, but three of my selection were to fill immediate holes for both of those types of players and cut down on some of the “balance” issue whining you read on the CT boards for the current late war setups. Immediate fixes for mid/late war setups before the long process can begin filling out the early/mid-war setups. You can do a lot of that too with the variants - P38 and as you guys have listed, the A6M3 would be on the list too. [edit: even early variants of the SBD and TBF to solve that huge imbalance that currently exists :)]
My point was that the TU-4 is pretty much out of the running for AH because it was,
I meant TU2, I had TU4 on my mind from seeing that History Channel special recently. There was a move under way by Pyro to add the TU-2 a year or so ago that stalled for some reason.
BTW, my “What the hell” list would include (at least this minute):
B-24 - most produced bomber, major Pacific heavy bomber mid war.
B-29 - Most advanced bomber. Bomber that brought the fight to Japan and ended the war in a direct manner.
F8F - hey, it was combat deployed, slap 100 perkies on it.
I-15 - Frank Tinker flew it
CR-32 - Something to shoot down with the I-15. Maybe a He-51 to make life easier.
Charon
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Originally posted by Capt. Pork
My point was that the TU-4 is pretty much out of the running for AH because it was, in effect, the first Soviet Cold War bomber, rather than the last Soviet bomber of WWII. Of course, if HTC got REALLY ambitious, they might start a Cold War adjunct to the game... That's a whole new issue that we should probably avoid, however, as it will inevitably re-raise the question of A-bombs in AH.
Y'know, It funny that Joseph Stalin said after B-29 land at Russia, "Gift from the god" and I wonder why he said that lol.
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Originally posted by Charon
There have been a lot of aircraft laundry lists posted lately -- a veritable index listing from some Aircraft encyclopedia. While I hope that all the significant and insignificant WW2 planes are added someday, from a practical standpoint what are the critical holes in the planeset? What are the FIVE most pressing NEWadditions. Here’s the criteria:
1. The plane had to have seen at least somewhat significant service in WW2 -- No G55 perk planes.
2. It has to be basically competitive in the MA (on the order of a MC 205 or FW-190A8) -- no hanger queens.
3. It has to fill a reasonable role in the CT (most likely a late-war CT setup, given the preceding criteria).
4. You have to explain your choices.
Here’s my list:
1. Ki-84. Performance with low octane fuel not enough to be perked, usage numbers significant, great plane for the MA and great plane to fill out late war PAC CT setups.
yes most definatly as its performance rivals that of the p51 (but then again according to my sources so does the yak 9u's)
2. DO-217. The most significant “heavy bomber” from a country that did not promote strategic bombardment. The He-177 would be interesting as would the Ju-188, but the DO217 offers more than adequate MA performance with much greater historical significance for CT and scenarios.
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3. TU-2. A toss up between this and the more historically significant Pe-2. High speed late war bomber that saw sufficient service with adequate CT usefulness but primarily a MA choice.
rather have a pe2...
4. B-25. Adequate performance for the MA and attractive solid nose gun packages (I’m partial to the heavy .50 armed variants over the pack howitzer models). Used by most allies on all fronts in large numbers, with more conservative performance compared to the B-26. Parafrag and skip bombing would be neat additions. Variants could be B-25C, Pappy Gunn B-25C, B-25J glass-nosed and hard-nosed.
yes...
5. I-16/24. It may seem like an odd addition, but it would be a top turn and burner in the MA (with performance in recent tests regarded as being superior to the Hurricane 2) and armed with two cannons. It would a significant early war Russian fighter for CT usage. It would also be a useful start for a Spanish Civil War planeset (I-16/10) which I fully support along with Arlo :)
a mig 3 would seem more appropriate
Charon
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Originally posted by Charon
4. B-25. Adequate performance for the MA and attractive solid nose gun packages (I’m partial to the heavy .50 armed variants over the pack howitzer models). Used by most allies on all fronts in large numbers, with more conservative performance compared to the B-26. Parafrag and skip bombing would be neat additions. Variants could be B-25C, Pappy Gunn B-25C, B-25J glass-nosed and hard-nosed.
It wasn't a "pack howitzer" that was installed in the B-25H, it was the T13E1 75mm gun. This weapon was specifically designed for use in the Mitchell, and was adapted as the M6 gun for use in the M24 light tank. It fired a full range of ammunition, including AP and HE. It used a very compact concentric recoil system that minimized weight.
However, like you, I would prefer the solid nose B-25J. Yet, it's really not needed as the A-20G already fills the role nicely, and unlike the B-25, the A-20 can more than hold its own with fighters.
It would be very useful if HTC modeled parafrags and skip-bombing. But, I don't see them doing that anytime soon.
My regards,
Widewing
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A few allied bombers we need:
Mosquito B.Mk.XVI
Halifax
Wellington
Mitchell
Almost forgot that we also need the Sea Mosquito!
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Originally posted by Charon
It’s not all about you, Arlo :) Or me. I don’t even fly bombers or fly in the CT that much, but three of my selection were to fill immediate holes for both of those types of players and cut down on some of the “balance” issue whining you read on the CT boards for the current late war setups. Immediate fixes for mid/late war setups before the long process can begin filling out the early/mid-war setups. You can do a lot of that too with the variants - P38 and as you guys have listed, the A6M3 would be on the list too. [edit: even early variants of the SBD and TBF to solve that huge imbalance that currently exists :)]
Never said it was .... just talkin' common sense here. The MA doesn't need to be factored in. It reached it's top end awhile back. Adding what planes that are already available through the competition that can possibly lure away a potential customer negates that part of the equation. After that, everything's gravy and whipped cream. (Not to mention the fact that the addition of "the other guy's planes" already goes a long ways toward addressing the gaps that need filling.):D
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Originally posted by Xjazz
Highest kill ratio of any WW2 plane type and also highest scoring single airframe.
:D
Finns are supposed to be the top overclaimers of WW2 :)
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Originally posted by dankes
Finns are supposed to be the top overclaimers of WW2 :)
Funny enough, now that the Soviet Archives have opened, it has been found out that the Soviet combat losses on the Finnish front were bigger than what the Finns had claimed. Go figure. :p
Back to the topic, here's my list of 5 planes, all for the eastern front:
1. Brewster model 239
For obvious reasons.
2. Pe-2
The best tactical bomber of the war. TU-2 was a late war re-design of the Pe-2. Pe-2 was almost as important to the soviets as the IL-2.
3. Yak-1b
With the introduction of the Yak-1b, the Yakovlev fighter series started kicking serious butt. The Yak-1b has comparable performance to the "regular" Yak-9 which is desperately needed for the AH planeset.
4. LaGG-3
The ugly duckling that eventually developed into the La5/La7 series. The LaGG-3 and also the early La-5s are desperately needed for the AH planeset.
5. I-16
The most common VVS fighter in the early years. Used from the Spanish War well into the Great Patriotic War.
Camo
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However, like you, I would prefer the solid nose B-25J. Yet, it's really not needed as the A-20G already fills the role nicely, and unlike the B-25, the A-20 can more than hold its own with fighters.
My only thought on that was that it is a slower plane that is appropriate for early/mid/late war planesets yet the armament options would still give it appeal in the MA. More of a current Allied CT consideration, a slower Aliied bomber compared to the A-20 or B-26.
Good points about the draw another crowd aspects Arlo.
Looking at your list, the ones that really jump out to me are:
Ki-84
Brewester (not on the list, but certainly a draw for all the Finns)
P-39
I-16
And, also not on the list but...
A-26
With the prek system, adding the A-26 isn't as scary :)
Cammos list is pretty solid, the Lagg 3 being the weakest link for the entire player base IMO.
Vort, exactly how competitive would the Mig 3 be beyond the CT? Just curious. I know it's gneral performance but haven't seen how it's modeled in a game like IL2/FB.
Another approach to think about (since we're not likely to get an update with 10 new planes), is which six planes could you add that would at least give something new for everyone. Say, 2 MA and 4 CT focused? With the 4 CT, maybe 2 Japanese and 2 VVS? - early/mid war? (Ki-84 would be on the MA list for me, and still offer additional CT utility)
Charon
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1) Ki 84
2) Ki 102/w 75mm cannon
3) Ki 44
4) Spitfire Mk VIII
5) IAR 80/81
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Something with a large-caliber nose-mounted artillery piece would be very nice just for the sake of novelty (yes, some of us appreciate a little novelty even when the game tries to adhere to historical situations). I personally prefer the HS-129, but the american Variant would probably be a better all around choice.
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Originally posted by Charon
There have been a lot of aircraft laundry lists posted lately -- a veritable index listing from some Aircraft encyclopedia. While I hope that all the significant and insignificant WW2 planes are added someday, from a practical standpoint what are the critical holes in the planeset? What are the FIVE most pressing NEWadditions. Here’s the criteria:
1. The plane had to have seen at least somewhat significant service in WW2 -- No G55 perk planes.
2. It has to be basically competitive in the MA (on the order of a MC 205 or FW-190A8) -- no hanger queens.
3. It has to fill a reasonable role in the CT (most likely a late-war CT setup, given the preceding criteria).
4. You have to explain your choices.
(http://oldwolf.myrice.com/japaneseaircraft/images/Ki44-03.jpg)
(http://www.squadron.com/old/ki44mj/ki44mj_2.jpg)
Ki-44 Shoki (translates to "Demon"). The only Japanese aircraft built specifically as an interceptor, it married high speed and climb at the sacrifice of maneuverability. It was the only Japanese aircraft capable of operating at the altitudes where the American heavy bombers flew. Prototype first flew in 1940 and was a disappointment, but revisions and modifications to the design yielded a fighter capable of reaching 16,000 feet in just over 4 minutes. The Ki-44-IIb carried four 12.7mm machine guns (equivalent to four .50cals, more or less) and had a max speed of 376 mph at 17,000 feet. The Ki-44-III carried four 20mm cannons and had a bigger, more powerful motor. Just over 1,100 Shoki's were produced and served in China, Burma, India theatre, in Sumatra, and later in defense of the home islands against the B-29 raids.
The Ki-44 production ceased when the Ki-84 entered service.
Mitsubishi G4M Betty bomber. Mainstay of the Japanese Army bomber fleet. Max bomb load was 1,000kg. Armament was four 20mm cannons and two 7.7mm MGs. Just say no to Ju-88 substitutions!
P51B with a Malcolm hood. I'm tired of looking around canopy framing!
Dewoitine D.520. You'll never have a true Fall of France scenario with a French fighter such as the Dewoitine D520.
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Originally posted by Seeker
The T 34 because we need at least some choice for an opposition to the Panzer (and hopefully one day a Nip tank as well). It's true that the MA is "non aligned"; but most squads have some semblance of historicity; The Whermacht needs a counter part. It's one of AH's more obvious "points of imbalance".
I'm thinking Soviet T-34/76F (http://www.soviet-empire.com/arsenal/army/tanks/t34/t3476a_001.gif)
Sherman Calliope (unguided rocket racks bolted over the turret) (http://cidwebs.com/armorinscale/images/frank11_400.jpg)
and Pershing (probably perked) (http://armorfoto.homestead.com/files/M26/M26apg01_copy.JPG) .
The Japanese Chi-Ha tank is not something that could survive in the MA.
(http://www.airfixmodels.co.uk/images/prod/01319b.jpg)
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I know this argument may be getting stale, but I the JS-1 and JS-2 would be extremely good counterparts to the Tiger and (if we're lucky enough to get them) the Panther. The later varients of the Joseph Stalin carried some of the War's heaviest tank guns, as well as armor that was all but impregnable by anything short of point blank fire from German 75s and 88s. Check out the following link for some great information about this series. Pay special attention to gun trials involving the soviet guns verses captured German Panthers and Tigers.
http://www.battlefield.ru/is2_1.html[/URL]
Shells going clear through Tiger turret armor and nearly coming out the other side!? Something I'd like to see very much considering my own (and many others') experiences with Panzer 75mm shells bouncing off Tiger armor harmlessly time and time again at ranges less than a 1000 yards.
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I'm not that much of a historian, so I'll save myself the heartache of listing something incorrectly. However, I think the game could benefit from a few additional airplanes/vehicles along these lines:
1. A Perked bomber that is useful. B-29 or otherwise. That arado is only useful if you are attacking an HQ, and the bombload is horrible.
2. Something to combat a panzer, from what I understand, a sherman was really not powerful enough to stand up to a panzer or tiger 1 on 1, which is why they were so mass produced.
3. From what I understand the P-40N was the most widely used of the P-40 model, perhaps toss the less used E version and replace it with the N so more folks fly it.
Everything else is a good bonus, but I think these are needed, especially the bomber, I'm sure I'm not alone when I say that I'm sitting on a bunch of useless bomber perks.
;)
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1 - Douglas A26 Invader: 355 mph, 6000 lbs of bombs, 8 five-inch rockets. A good late-war (perk?) bomber. Basically a six-pack of whoopass.
2 - Curtiss SB2C Helldiver: Destroyed more Japanese targets than any other plane. Sort of fits in the TBM/SBD role, so maybe not needed per se, but would be a fun alternative.
3 - Bell P63 KingCobra: Better than the P39, flown by the Russians. 37 mm Cannon, .50 cals and three 500 lb bombs. Fast, aerobatic, probably a blast to fly and sexy as hell.
4 - Fairey Firefly: Hella fast, 4x20 mm cannons (Brit Niki?), 16 rockets or 2x1000 lb bombs. Can you say JABO? I knew you could ;)
5 - Consolidated B-24 Liberator: 12,800 lbs of bombs, 290 mph at altitude. Deadly. Maybe a perk plane.
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Dornier 335
Dewoitine D 520
Lockheed Hudson
Short Suderland
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P-39Q-10 or P-39N-1 in Russian colors of course
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Originally posted by gofaster
Dewoitine D.520. You'll never have a true Fall of France scenario with a French fighter such as the Dewoitine D520.
By the Time of the Invasion of France in May 1940 only 36 D.520's had been delivered for squadron service. However, they Vichy French forces continued to build them for use eventually building 905 of the type.
They did see some action against Allied forces during the Invasion of North Africa but it was pretty limited.
As for the "Fall of France" scenario - the Hurricane Mk1 has very similar performance but it would be nice to have the real thing I agree.
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For fall of france you need MS406 or MB152 or if you want to do it like crapware WWIIol put a Hawk and no french plane.
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Fighters
Japan
1. Ki-84 - desperately needed for ToD, events and the ct and would get main time.
2. a6m3 - Needed for the ToD, events and the ct
US
3. p39N (or any variant except the q) - Needed for the ToD, events and the ct
4. p38g/j - Needed for the ToD, events and the ct
VVS
5. Yak-9D - Needed for the ToD, events and the ct
Just the tip of the iceberg. The main is hardly a critera I would use. With the exception of the ki-84 most of the planes that will see regular usage are already in the main. Unless HT goes crazy and introduce wonder birds.
Top 5 Bomber
1. Betty
2. B25
3. He 111
4. Pe2 (fighter variant Pe3)
5. SM.79 Sparviero (however I agree with Brady in that the CANT Z 1007 would get more use)
Then finally fix some of the Hybrids
109g6 add mw50 designate 109g14
New early G6 model
F4U-1 (fix FM to match) and add F4U-1a
Spit 9 - Either get rid of the 50s and rockets and designate our current spit "Spitfire F.Mk IX" (merlin 61) or redo the FM (merlin 66) and designate "Spitfire LF.Mk IX". Or add a new model so we can have both.
I can go on and on but I think the above would make one of the best addons to AH ever.
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b24
b25
b29
3 bombers that can withstand the MA
ki84 one of the most produces japanese planes
early p38s would be nice
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Prop Fighters
1. P38-F - It is the first aircraft of the 38's, and the subsequent variants get heavier while their performance declines.
2. Ki-84 - Needs no explanation.
3. Migg-3 - It's performance is adequate and it will definitley become a niche once we learn it's advantages / disadvantages
4. Mc 2000 - We definitely need a new Italian representative and I feel that this one fits the bill perfectly.
5. P-39 - If sheer numbers mean anything, then we can not leave it out.
6. Me410 - A nice night fighter for when they fix the night.
7. P-61 or F6F-5N - For night fighting
8. F8F - but slap 130 perks on it.
9. Ki-27 - Have to have it for early scenarios.
10. Brewster Buffalo - Again an early scenario must have.
Buffs
1. Pe2 - The russians need representation, and this aircraft adequately fits the bill.
2. B-25 - Only if forward gun nose is selectable.
3. A-26 - THis aircraft is uber, and without a doubt gonna rock the MA if allowed.
4. He-111 - From pure historical perspectives we have to have it.
5. Emily - Japanes good all around buff.
6. B-24J - Ya know, it is kind of redundant, but this aircraft will fill a void in the scenarios, as they are much weaker strength wise, then 17's
7. Do-17 - A good early war buff.
8. Il2 later variant - will be more survivable then the current set.
9. Ju-87G - Can you say gun packs!
10. Halifax - The lanc is not the only brit buff worth flying.
Jets
1. He-162 - Will be fun to fly and provide an interesting option for scenarios
2. Meteor - It was there, so why not allow it too...
3. P-80 - It was operational.
4. Japanese version of the 262.
GV's
1. Sherman variant
2. JS2 series
3. T-34/76
4. M-26 - allied perks
5. Churchill
6. Japanese tank ???
7. French tank for scenarios
8. pz 3 - for scenarios
9. m3a1 - for scenarios.
10. Panther - too significant to leave out.
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Me109B
Me109C
Me109D
Me109K
Me109 TL
Me109 on floats
Me109Z
Me 309
Me509
Me609
http://www.luft46.com/mess/me109tl.html
http://www.luft46.com/mess/me109z.html
http://www.luft46.com/mess/me609.html#309
http://www.luft46.com/mess/me509.html
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I haven't seen the D4Y or B7A listed. Those would be my choices.
From a SEA point of view, IJN Carriers are near useless post 1942.
For the MA they probably wont find much use though. Although the B7A is blazing fast for a torp plane (if you're into that).
-Sik
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i dont understand the desire for a p80. It was historically insignificant to ww2. Did it even ever see combat? The meteor you can make a case for, but your reaching when it comes to the p80.
my choices would be
1)brewster buff
2)g4m
3)p39
4)ki84(for MA dweebs)
5)mc2000 or pe2
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I disagree with the Machi MC 200. It's a marginal fighter who's role is already filled by C.202 in our game. I would rather see the Reggiane Re 2005 Sagittario. Very nimble aircraft with a max speed of 391 mph. It has excellent fire power with 3 20mm and 2 12.7mm. It also has the capability to carry ordnance. I would also like to see the P-61 instead of the B-25 (not that the B-25 isn't an excellent plane) because the P-61 carry 6400lbs under the wings and a B-25J only has a pay of 4,000. Plus the P-61 would be a fun aircraft to fly in this arena. In all honesty I think that getting any new aircraft at this point is a pipe dream until they get un-busy with AH2. I wish they would have just given this game a face lift and tweaked it a bit. ...but we can dream.:D
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Originally posted by Batz
Fighters
Japan
1. Ki-84 - desperately needed for ToD, events and the ct and would get main time.
2. a6m3 - Needed for the ToD, events and the ct
US
3. p39N (or any variant except the q) - Needed for the ToD, events and the ct
4. p38g/j - Needed for the ToD, events and the ct
VVS
5. Yak-9D - Needed for the ToD, events and the ct
Just the tip of the iceberg. The main is hardly a critera I would use. With the exception of the ki-84 most of the planes that will see regular usage are already in the main. Unless HT goes crazy and introduce wonder birds.
Top 5 Bomber
1. Betty
2. B25
3. He 111
4. Pe2 (fighter variant Pe3)
5. SM.79 Sparviero (however I agree with Brady in that the CANT Z 1007 would get more use)
Then finally fix some of the Hybrids
109g6 add mw50 designate 109g14
New early G6 model
F4U-1 (fix FM to match) and add F4U-1a
Spit 9 - Either get rid of the 50s and rockets and designate our current spit "Spitfire F.Mk IX" (merlin 61) or redo the FM (merlin 66) and designate "Spitfire LF.Mk IX". Or add a new model so we can have both.
I can go on and on but I think the above would make one of the best addons to AH ever.
I wholeheartedly agree with whoever this is posting under Batz' account. :D
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We agree on other things as well.
http://www.zi.ku.dk/personal/drnash/model/spain/did.html
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Originally posted by Bodhi
4. Japanese version of the 262.
There never was a Japanese version of the 262. The war ended long before it could be built, let alone see combat.
I would really like to see some French planes in AH2, as they played a big part in the Battle of France.
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Originally posted by NOD2000
common wealth boomerang- why? well, it is the only austrailian plane that i feel would truly be a threat. It could be used in the CT because its a mid to late war plane. It would also not be a hanger queen because people would not know exactly what to expect upon encountering one (sort of like running into a FM2 or F4F). I belive it would be a great addition to AH2:aok
Everyone to thier own, but I disagree....one of my five is australian built, the boomerang would be found out quite quickly I think...
My Picks:
Ki-84
B-25
P-39/P-63
G4M
Beaufighter Mk21
Me-410
Meteor Mk1
variants:
Spitfire MkVIII
P-40M
Mosquito MkXVI
Tronsky
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Clipped wing Spit LFIXE or XVIE. Same bird with either an American built Packard Merlin or a Rolls Royce Merlin in it, rated for low alt work.
P39N or Q. Pac, Med, Russian Front use. Low alt bird again. Did fine against 109s on the deck.
I-16. Just cause it would be fun
OK I'll live with the Ki-84
Early war P38F or G. Less range, no dive brake.
Dan/Slack
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I agree with Charon's list but I'd also add the Ki-43 and Ki-44 to add to the early IJAAF plane set list.
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Lets take a periods/forces that not fully persented in AH
Battle of Britan
- Do-17 the most used LW bomber in BoB,
- Ju-87 - early variants
Eastern Early Front
- I-16 - the most used VVS fighter.
- Yak 1 - middle war variants too
- LaGG-3
- He111
- Pe-2 - give VVS at least one real bomber
Jets - that had been operational in WW2
Nightfighters
- Night Mossies
- Beufighter
- Me110 nightfighers
Others
- Ju87G - tank killer for LW to balance with Il-2
- B-29 - need more perked bombers
- 109K4
- Ki-84
- Some unammed light planes for Search & Rescue missions
- Ju52 - LW transport
Some early cold War planes for CT and SEA usage only!
- Meteor Mk F8
- Meteor Mk NF13
- F-86
- MiG-15
- Il-28
- Hawker Sea Hawk - Navy Jet Fighter
- Mystere IVa
- Vampire
Would be nice to have this planes for CT and SEA to go sometimes from WWII
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You have just gave me an idea.
We must can rescue pilots when they bailed out so he can save his kills:D
Ofcourse the enemy pilot will take his kill.
And imagine a rescue mission near a enemy field. Lot of fun :)
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Yeah it could be fun only if player bailed with 6-9 kills and then rescuer can take half of his points - this will give a reason for both to make rescue.
But it would be much better for scenarios. SAR was implemented in Kadesh - however it has very comples rules.
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If there were a gameplay function for SAR, then the H6K (or H8K) and PBY would be GREAT additions.
The nature of the ToD might open up the possibilities for this type of role. Even without the ToD, it may fit nicely in scenario and SEA play (taking Kadesh as an example).
But it may be asking too much to add gameplay changes in order to justify new Aircraft when there are many aircraft that can be modeled within the current game design. On the other hand, Bullethead and I had a conversation about planeset development a few years ago, and nobody in the thread saw the gameplay changes that would come with ToD, and the change in airplane emphasis that the ToD would have (namely in my mind, reducing the demand for MA fighters, and increasing the demand for "fleshing out" specific periods and theaters of the war).
I think that at this point in time, with the ToD as the apparent future of AH, that when looking at what planes "need" to be added, that we look at it from the "fleshing out" perspective. Artiks post is an example of this type of thinking. My interests are more in the Pacific, so if it were my world:
Early-Mid Pacific
Imperial Japanese
Ki-43 Hyabusa
A6M3 Zero
Ki-45 Toryu
G4M Betty
United States
P-38e
B-17e
P-400 (P-39D?)
TBD Devastator
I think that would work. If you could pick one single time/theater to flesh out, what would it be, and what planes would you want?
-Sik
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Obviously the 1 plane that truely HAS to be added is the Ki-84.
Beyond that I think the single plane with the largest potential impact on the game...and the war isone that was never fielded...although it could of been.
Had the war "continued" somehow into 1946 the "work horse" of the allied war effort would of been the F7F...it's the only plane on any side that could fufill all air to air and air to ground roles...very much like the F-16 today. Here was a plane that did 435mph...had 4 x 20mm & 4 x .50 cal and carried 4,000 lbs of ord and could easily kill any plane it met in combat (with exception of 262).
It isn't really a plane that "qualifies" (it did see some active service though) but it would have easily replaced the mustang as "best fighter" of WW2 had it been put into production sooner.
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Originally posted by HavocTM
1 - Douglas A26 Invader: 355 mph, 6000 lbs of bombs, 8 five-inch rockets. A good late-war (perk?) bomber. Basically a six-pack of whoopass.
2 - Curtiss SB2C Helldiver: Destroyed more Japanese targets than any other plane. Sort of fits in the TBM/SBD role, so maybe not needed per se, but would be a fun alternative.
3 - Bell P63 KingCobra: Better than the P39, flown by the Russians. 37 mm Cannon, .50 cals and three 500 lb bombs. Fast, aerobatic, probably a blast to fly and sexy as hell.
4 - Fairey Firefly: Hella fast, 4x20 mm cannons (Brit Niki?), 16 rockets or 2x1000 lb bombs. Can you say JABO? I knew you could ;)
5 - Consolidated B-24 Liberator: 12,800 lbs of bombs, 290 mph at altitude. Deadly. Maybe a perk plane.
i don't know that much about WWII planes, but after you're explenation of them, i think they'd be a good addition to the MA/CT
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I'd like to see the Gigant as a lightly perked bomber/supply plane. Give it four times the load of a C47, and be able to mix supplies and troops.
I'd also like to see the Gigant as a lightly perked vehicle transport, allowing you to take your Ostwind or two M3s to near a distant field. The perks would be saved as soon as you land, however.
I'd like to see the ventral gun as an option on the Arado. An Arado with two bombs and the ventral canon would be much more playable, IMO.
I'd like to see the C variant Arados with four jet engines
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Ki-84
P-47N
STILL waiting for the F6F with the 20mm cannon option!!!
TBolt
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VVS 44/45
P39N
Yak3
Yak9M
Tu 2
Pe2/3
VVS 43/44
P39N
Yak7
Yak9D
Pe2/3
La5F
VVS 42/43
Yak1
Yak7
Lagg3
Pe2/3
La5F
VVS 41/42
I16
Yak1
Lagg3
Mig3
Pe2
I think we immediately see that the Pe2/3 is the most appropriate "new" VVS AC.
For compatibility with present plane sets and use also out side this arena i would add 2nd the P39N.
Yak Modifications
Yak 3 has slightly shorter wings than the Yak9U. Slightly better low alt performance and slightly worse med alt performance. Its also a bit delicate.
Yak 9M is the exact air frame as the Yak9T with bigger fuel tanks/ 20mm cannon and Vk105PF-2 engine(slightly faster than the T). (its the easiest upgrade IMO)
Yak 9D has cockpit 15" forward of the T & M it has same tanks as the M but with the same engine (M 105) as the T.
Late Yak7's look like Yak 9D's but are heavier and slower.
Early Yak7's have an extended covered in rear cockpit canopy.
Late Yak 1's look like Yak 3's but are heavier and much slower.
Early Yak 1's even slower.
Fun factor.
I16 would be fun it would have a limited 2 x 20mm load out or 2 x 12.7mm option. Its small size alone would make it a curiosity but its ability to turn inside anything, would make it the supreme perk accumulator in the MA.
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RIGHT I'M ENDING THIS HERE
THE P-80 NEVER SAW ACTION IN WWII AND IT NEVER PLAYED ANY FORM OF ROLE AND IF WE START HAVING PLANES WHICH DIDN'T FIGHT IN WWII BUT NEARLY DID THEN WE'LL GET PUSHED FURTHER INTO THE FUTURE AND THEN YOUR ASKING FOR B-52'S, VULCAN'S ETC...
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BTW you forget to press CapsLock twice ;)
Ok about deal - why not B-52 - I really would like on some point to fly this excelent mashine.
As we know air forces histroy didn't finished in WW2 it is continue and very interesting - for me I like to see Jet AH together with AH. I'd like to see period of MiG 21 of Phantom of Mirage, Why not.
BTW few of P-80 was operational as experement hovever did not see any combat duaring WW2 just afte it. ;)
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I would love a 'Cold War' or 'Modern/Near Future' AH but we can't destroy the good old WWII AH!
BTW if we do get a 'Cold War' AH they have to have the V-Focre (Victor, Vulcan and Valiant)
Keep Flying!!
Per Aura Ad Astra!
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I agree that the most widely produced US fighter of WW2, the P-40 series, is under represented in the planeset. The K or N variants would fill that gap rather nicely, and may actually stand a chance against other mid- to late-war rides. Personally, I think the K would be the better choice, and more popular in the MA. For a perked P-51 (maybe 10 points like the C-Hog), how about the Mustang 1A with 4-20mm Hispanos? The Spit9 LF would be a good choice also.
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Well, thinking about it more now...I'd rather see something totally new rather than just a variation of a plane that we already have.
TBolt