Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: brady on December 08, 2003, 05:39:17 PM

Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: brady on December 08, 2003, 05:39:17 PM: In an effort to get a couple more plane types added that some folks have missed playing with I have decided to go with the Okinawa set up this Friday.

Fleat hardness will by 50% of MA standard, 4k for a Cv and 750 pounds for any other ship.

All bases have SB's they will be set to 5k, as apposed to 4k wich is their default seting.

The Ack gun hardenss will be increased to 50KG.

Ack lethality will be at .7, like it is normaly in the CT.

Dot dar will be at 20 miles for enemy and unlimited for friendly.

500 foot height for dar.

The plane set:

At start up all Allied airpower will be sea based, if the Allies take a base US Army Air assest's will be available their as well as GV's.

Plane set:

Their are two types of Allied CV task forces, one with 4 CV's and one with one CV. The 4 CV groups have two CA in them along with their CV's and the Single CV groupe is just like a MA fleat. Their are also 4 CA TF's like we had on the slot map. For this set up will will be using, 2 single CV group's, one Four CV groupe and one 4 CA groupe. The Japanese will have one Single CA groupe.

USN:

From the Four CV groupe(C1):

Hellcat
Wildcat FM2
TBM
SBD
LVT's

From the Single CV groupe (C3):

F4U-1D
TBM
SBD
LVT's

Royal Navy:

From the single CV groupe(C4):

F4U-1A (Skined as a Royal Navy Coursare)
TBM
SBD
LVT's

US Army:

P47D-30
A20

C47
The M's
Panzer IV
PT's

Japan:

All of them.
C47
The M's
Panzer IV
PT's

Note: The F4U-1D will be available at A18, in adation to the Fleat.B26(From A18,19 & 20)
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Arlo on December 08, 2003, 06:02:31 PM: Let's see ....

There's gonna be strong shore batts and ack guns ... weak fleets (and small if they have F4Us on them). We Get shore-based F4Us out of A18 once we manage to take it until we lose it. The Army Air Corps is out of the picture until we capture a base but is lost if we lose said base or bases. The Allies will have ocean superiority but they better keep it well out of range of the shore guns until they have the numbers to mount a significant strike/invasion force (and they better do it fast). The Japanese will have Peggy formations available. And the F4U-1 is dressed funny. Gotcha :lol

Sure .. why not? It'll give VF-17 two places to enjoy their preferred virtual AH enviroment this week. The CT and Saturday's CAP. :D

Thanks for the late pac. :aok
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: simshell on December 08, 2003, 06:27:21 PM: can some one tell me why the nik is in this setup i mean did it see any real combat besides rame-ing a cv 1 time:lol
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Arlo on December 08, 2003, 06:36:11 PM: Hey! Don't jinx it. The George ain't that much a problem. Watch out for the skilled Tony veteran, though.

Besides .... I've even advocated reskinning the La-5 or 7 to be a Ki-84. That'd make things harder for the Allies by a magnitude. But as long as the F4U gets free run outa the deal (enabled at all shore bases and fleets that have the same composition as the others) I'd like it just fine.

It would require editing this terrain to add the skins, though.
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: kanttori on December 08, 2003, 07:46:55 PM: Brady, is it possible to adjust all acks (Fleets, too) a little bit more down to CT use? Or can you adjust 88's alone to lower level? I think the most whining is coming just because of those ack batteries everywhere in the Okinawa main isle and huge fleets...

The ack-hell was good in the SEA "Operation Iceberg" use, but maybe we don't need it so heavy in CT?;)
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: brady on December 08, 2003, 07:51:38 PM: The George (N1k1, and N1K2) faught in several Battles during the later part of the war from mid 44 till the end( first action for them was during the invashion of the Philipines). Including Okinawa whear it flew escort mishions for the strkies aganst the Allies their, Just one of the George units in operation hear Air Groupe 343 in operations around Okinawa scored aprox. 106 kills with the loss of aprox. 29 Aircraft.
The George can also be viewed as a stand in for many other late war Japanes fighters we dont have in AH that were operation during this time many of which were in action over Okinawa.

Skining a Russian fighter that in no way preformed anything like the Ki 84 and had a very different gun package, would not be somthing I would realy go for, espichaly since it would likely see a lot more use than any of the Japanese planes which we have.

The Flack, issue has to do with the number of guns on the fleat that are producing it, adjusting the lethality will not decrease the Flack buff's, we treyd this before, and it did not help. The best way to reduce the Flack from the fleats is to sink a few ships outa them:) The Field ack is no problem it is easly taken out, as evidanced by the very fluid front on Okinawa, realy the clusters seam to make the guns easer to kill. espichaly if bombs are used aganst them.
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Slash27 on December 08, 2003, 08:09:33 PM: Just one of the George units in operation hear Air Groupe 343 in operations around Okinawa scored aprox. 106 kills with the loss of aprox. 29 Aircraft.

Where does this stat come from? Is it a Japanese claim or a researched fact?

Thanks for the set up BTW, just stay away from the helm:D
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: tzr on December 08, 2003, 09:08:28 PM: No P-38??
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: brady on December 08, 2003, 09:13:35 PM: Japanese Naval Aces and Fighter Units in World War by Ikuhio Hata and Yasuho Izawa Naval Institute Press, is the source, the Authors tyroughtout the book take great care to try and present substantiated figures.

No P38's were actualy in the Battle at Okinawa.
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: MajorDay on December 08, 2003, 10:16:58 PM: Oh goody! Remeber Brady that I told you about F4U-4 on Okinawa :D
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Slash27 on December 08, 2003, 10:17:40 PM: Japanese Naval Aces and Fighter Units in World War by Ikuhio Hata and Yasuho Izawa Naval Institute Press, is the source, the Authors tyroughtout the book take great care to try and present substantiated figures.

Sounds good. Ive been reading Aces of the Rising Sun by Henry Sakaida. Quite a difference in claims made vs. actual losses:D
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: brady on December 08, 2003, 10:30:31 PM: Ya their was indead, a comom problem realy for all countrys but the Japanese set the gold standard in this area.
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Slash27 on December 08, 2003, 10:51:17 PM: Yes they did:D
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Easyscor on December 09, 2003, 02:55:11 AM: Looks like no level bombers for the Allies. I guess the 322nd will be sinking Allied ships this week?
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Slash27 on December 09, 2003, 08:41:46 AM: B-26s were in this set up last time.
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: GRUNHERZ on December 09, 2003, 09:37:49 AM: Why no P51s?
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: LtMagee on December 09, 2003, 10:28:48 AM: Another typical bias plane set. If it out does the axis, make it work for the axis by making it late war, in an area that favors Axis. The AJN will simply comit suicide just to sink the F4U based CVs. The respawn is always in never never land so the axis map makers wont have to worry about them for several hours.

While the past several maps favor for the Axis base captures, this one really hinders allies.

Axis had an easy BoF
and easy Finn
now an easy defend

yeap, my mind is set, bias CMs for axis...lets hear it, hip hip horay.....gooooo axis :aok WTFG Brady!
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: brady on December 09, 2003, 11:28:05 AM: Yes I am sry their are B26's available I cut and pasted the wrong plane list:)

B26's are available from the Three Islands due West of Okinawa (A18,19, & 20)
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: snocone on December 09, 2003, 11:45:50 AM: Hooray!

This is one of the only setups where base capture doesnt suck. CV drivers PLEASE keep em out of sb range. You think its too far to fly when its a sector away try it when its 5 sectors away cause it was sunk!
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: GRUNHERZ on December 09, 2003, 11:57:08 AM: Quote
Originally posted by LtMagee
Another typical bias plane set.

and easy Finn

WTFG Brady!

So the russians have the fasterst plane up to 10K - tha LA5 which can also just about climb with the 109s and can turn with them and has better firepower. They have the best turning plane the Hurricane, and armed with 4 hispanos to boot. They have the Yak9T which is just as fast as the 109s, turns better and packs a huge gun.

Perhaps you should look elsewhere, inwardly, for the cause of this percieven inbalance or difficulty you experienced in the finland map...
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Soulyss on December 09, 2003, 12:18:09 PM: YAY! this setup is a Hellcat fan's dream come true. :) Guess I have a couple days to learn how to shoot again.
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Eagler on December 09, 2003, 12:27:41 PM: niks and flak - YAHOO!!!! (
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Arlo on December 09, 2003, 12:31:09 PM: The Hurri I out-turns the Hurri 2C (and don't let the .303s fool ya ... they're a buzzsaw). The FM2 turns with it. Yes that LA-5 is a hotrod but I'm finding only a handful of Lala (and Yak) drivers that can out-turn a Franz it seems (been enjoying the Franz). There's a few decent P-40 pilots but for the most part they seem to be taking a beating. There's a fair amount of speed in those 109 G series planes ... as well as the 190s.

Still ... I say it's pretty balanced. Don't see room to whine on either side.

Looking forward to this Pac rotation. I just hope our guys can take and hold the Hog base. Taking anything's gonna be rough. It's .... balanced .... that way. But not impossible. It's the players that can afford to stay up all night taking it all back that'll make it even more ... challenging.
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Airscrew on December 09, 2003, 12:44:50 PM: Sorry Magee, I guess I dont see this map as favoring the Axis.
I typically login about 8pm central time and see 15 or 20 Allies against 7 to 10 Axis. From where I sit Allies always have the numbers, and although I love to operate off the CVs I'll switch over to Axis cause I have no issues about who I fly for its just a game. If as you say the Axis have the stronger planes, why do more people fly predomiately Allied?

I see the Allied plane set as stronger than Axis anyway. Allied planes have a better ammo and ordinance load out compared to all IJN planes execpt for the N1K2. Most of the allied planes can also out run all of the IJN planes. I've spent many a time trying to chase down F4Us and P-47s that dive in and drop ord and then speed away and avoid a dogfight.

I think its actually more fustrating for me when I fly Axis for a couple of reasons.
1. some allied fighter are afraid to come out of the ack envelop surrounding the allied CVs until they have either a numerical advantage or altitude advantage. Probably wise on their part but very boring while I circle around waiting for them to get a pair and come out.

2. parking the allied CV's so close to the axis base that the CV ack starts firing at me as soon as I take off and try to get some altitude. And then when we sink the CV they boohoo about someone killing the fight. If you dont want to lose the CV then dont paralle park next to an enemy field.

Now normally I dont say anything about these setups. I log on and I deal with it but it just gets amusing everytime this setup comes up someone boohoos and says the CM's favor Axis...
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Arlo on December 09, 2003, 01:05:51 PM: 1. CVs will have to get close enough to launch LVTs to take a base if the Allied side wants certain planes enabled (or just a shore base for my beloved F4U). Hardened shore batteries and cardboard fleets are an obvious means of making this harder to accomplish than ordinary. It's a one-sided "balancing" measure against the Allies. Whether you think it's justified or not you certainly can see that, can't you? ;)

2. Axis pilots who form up and grab to cap an enemy CV will see slower climbing, less maneuverable Allied planes stick close to the fleet ack until there's a safe avenue to grab alt and meet the enemy on terms other than the favorable ones they are trying to set up (unless they're stupid or sumpin'). Simply put - if you and 3 or 4 rush out to an enemy fleet to catch those F4Us taking off and you circle and grab, what the hell else should you expect? That's one of the silliest whines I've ever seen in the channel one buffer (or here).

3. Trust me ... the numbers bounce back and forth regularly. Most of us have seen it. Watch closely and stay on long enough and you may too.

:D
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Airscrew on December 09, 2003, 01:42:18 PM: Arlo, whine? whatever

your points

#1 I agree, CVs need to get close enough to launch LVTs, but I dont think you need all of them 5 miles of the coast to do that.

#2 I didnt say I expected them to fight me on my terms, I just want them to come out and fight. I rarely Cap the enemy CV, I hover outside of ack range by at least a mile or two away and anywhere from 1k to 5k. Some of these guys have at least 2k of alt advantage and still wont come out, even if I turn my back to them.
And when I ever get the chance to fly Allied I do the same thing, for the most part, I'm just a little more aggressive. I tend to fly and fight till I run out of gas or ammo and rarely do I take the opportunity to "land" kills. I take my F6F for F4U and try to get at least 3k before heading out no matter how many are out there. And when I get in trouble you bet I run for the ack coverage to save my prettythang.

I just wish the IJN have CV's enabled, I love the CV to CV battles regardless of which side I fly for.

I curious Arlo, what do you consider a slower climbing, less manuverable allied fighter, F4F? Slow maybe but manuverable, F6F?, faster than F4F, still very manuverable. F4U? Faster climb rate than Zero's maybe even the N1K2, but maybe not as manuverable. I've flown most of these planes for that last 3 years and the each have their strengths and weakness's but they are all fun to fly and even though I may sound like I'm whining I'm not, I always have fun flying with you guys and I learn more about each planes abilities in the CT better than what goes on in the MA.

If it wasnt for the CT and this setup I would never have flown the Zero. At first I relied on just the N1K2, but that got boring and some ran away unless they had numbers, hardly ever got a one one with anyone. Flying the Zero, I'm slower and the guns arent as good but more people will take on a single Zero by themselves than the N1K2.

I like this map, probably one of my favorites, and in my opinion the plane set is pretty evenly matched.
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Soulyss on December 09, 2003, 02:26:12 PM: Axis bias? lol the F6F can handle any plane in the current planeset that the IJN can throw at it.
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Reschke on December 09, 2003, 02:32:33 PM: Nice map and setup. Now to just hopefully educate some little Napoleon admirals and not have them drive the CV's on shore. :D
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Reschke on December 09, 2003, 02:40:20 PM: Just to add to what Soulyss says the guys flying the F4U can fly against IJ aircraft just as easily provided they don't get sucked into doing something stupid like I tend to do. :p
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: ergRTC on December 09, 2003, 02:47:22 PM: yak9t is as fast as the 109s? You should check your throttle grunherz. g6 and g2 put the 9t to shame.
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: LtMagee on December 09, 2003, 04:56:58 PM: I will do on this map just as I did the last time Brady ran it. I will be flying the F4U from three grids away due to the fact that some jerk will drive it up on some beach and the Ki-67s will kill themselves diving on it in which they will sink with ease...not to forget the beach gun batteries. The axis aircraft have the bigest advantage of being abler to reup faster than the allied aircraft. Simply get slow and you dead from both fast moving A6M5s and the N1J2k
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: LÃ¶we on December 09, 2003, 05:17:03 PM: Personally I don't see a problem with the Allied plane setup. Sheesh everything the Allies have is fast enough to walk away from the quck turning Japanese planes. Plus add to the fact the FM2 out turns everything but the A6M2 in this setup.

Stay fast, don't turn with A6M2s no matter what your in, and don't try an out HO the N1K2's, and you should do well as an Allied pilot.

50 cals against flying gas cans................. Boom Zoom, and Boom some more LtMagee.:aok
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Batz on December 09, 2003, 05:20:40 PM: Quote
Originally posted by ergRTC
yak9t is as fast as the 109s? You should check your throttle grunherz. g6 and g2 put the 9t to shame.

bull**** up to 15k they are about equal........

(http://www.hitechcreations.com/ahhelp/models/charts/yak9tspeed.gif)

(http://www.hitechcreations.com/ahhelp/models/charts/109g6speed.gif)
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Arlo on December 09, 2003, 06:08:27 PM: Quote
Originally posted by MajTom

I take my F6F for F4U and try to get at least 3k before heading out no matter how many are out there. And when I get in trouble you bet I run for the ack coverage to save my prettythang.

Well then .... same prolly goes for the other guy. ;0)[/i]

I curious Arlo, what do you consider a slower climbing, less manuverable allied fighter, F4F? Slow maybe but manuverable, F6F?, faster than F4F, still very manuverable. F4U? Faster climb rate than Zero's maybe even the N1K2, but maybe not as manuverable.

Is the F4F in this set? Brady listed the "Wildcat FM2" ... which is a vast improvement over the F4F. Not a climber but it's been known to turn with a Zeke now and again. The F6F climbs better than the F4U and is more maneuverable than the F4U but it's not inherently a better turner than any of the IJ planes. I've successfully turn-fought it from the seat of my Hog before.

But obviously I'm more F4U-centric and that was my focus (since it generally has more "balance control" factors slanted against it than any other plane in the CT except for ... perhaps .... the German jet and rocket planes) ... and that's what I'm refering to.

No ..... the F4U-1 doesn't neccesarily outclimb the George in AH. If you were to take off from a shore base and I was to take off from a carrier a half sector away and we met in the middle ... you would be above me. And you would obviously be more maneuverable than me. Now if we were to start a couple of sectors out I might have a couple of thousand feet over you. It's no coincidence that a common flightplan of many F4U players is to climb out in a direction other than straight at the enemy then change course inbound after reaching a certain altitude and speed. Brady provided a chart he likes to think supports his theory that the F4U-1 outclimbs the George. I hope he presents it again so you can see how much of a jump-start the George has from the runway and what altitude it takes the F4U-1 to "catch-up."

Personally ... I don't make a habit of upping from a CV that is surrounded by enemy dots in an F4U. But options are limited in this setup. There's one CV for F4U-1s .... and one for F4U-1Ds. And the shore base for F4U-1Ds starts out in Japanese hands.

So, like you, I would use the ack to my best advantage. And you would do your best to make sure I don't get that advantage. I'd climb and stick close to the ack. I suspect you'd try to engage me as soon as I'm co-alt (though there may be nearby IJ planes that would do so before then).

Even co-alt, you're engaging a slower, less maneuverable plane than you (max climb doesn't make for a very fast plane at the top of the hill). Also the F4U accelerates very slowly ... so there's no speed advantage to speak of. That leaves diving back into the ack.

But hell .... you've admitted that's a practical option from your own pov anyway. So it's curious why you brought it up as any point of contention. *ShruG* Hope that clears up your curiousity.[/i]
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Arlo on December 09, 2003, 06:39:33 PM: Quote
Originally posted by storch
Lowe is right on

Except for the point that was entirely missed he's exactly right. Kinda sorta. ;) :D
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: ergRTC on December 09, 2003, 06:43:56 PM: hmm.. looks like the 109s are much much faster. thanks.

Oh this is a bit clearer.

(http://mysite.verizon.net/kjard/1.jpg)
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: scJazz on December 09, 2003, 06:45:11 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Soulyss
Axis bias? lol the F6F can handle any plane in the current planeset that the IJN can throw at it.

Ya whut he said!

TY Brady for putting my beloved Hellcat in the scenario!

Brady, this setup has been run several times with hardened SBs and soft ships. With a hardness of 5000lbs your increasing the SB hardness from 3700lbs by a factor of 1/3rd not the 1/4th you probably think your doing. Could we please try using just normal hardness on the SBs? I know your going to come up with some wonky excuse why you won't change a thing. It will sound really good to you as well. :cool: Try changing your mind just once though... then a bunch of the people in the CT won't think your such a complete . Batz at this point you can not reply to this section which is directed at Brady you can tell because the first word in the paragraph is Brady and not Batz. Likewise the PREVIOUS sentence began with your name.:aok
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: scJazz on December 09, 2003, 06:48:34 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Löwe
don't try an out HO the N1K2's, and you should do well as an Allied pilot.

Do HO them if they insist just start firing at 1600 yards. You'll have a good 3 seconds of firing before they are in range. If they break first then HAHA you've already got angles on 'em.
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Arlo on December 09, 2003, 06:50:05 PM: I thought your last sentence began with "Likewise." :confused:
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: scJazz on December 09, 2003, 07:00:41 PM: Damn it leave it to you to say something like that... hold on!
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: scJazz on December 09, 2003, 07:02:23 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Arlo
I thought your last sentence began with "Likewise." :confused:

There is that better?!?
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: brady on December 09, 2003, 07:02:29 PM: "Brady, this setup has been run several times with hardened SBs and soft ships. With a hardness of 5000lbs your increasing the SB hardness from 3700lbs by a factor of 1/3rd not the 1/4th you probably think your doing. Could we please try using just normal hardness on the SBs? "

SB Hardness is set at 5K which is equilvent(or less than) to the ordance load out of any two of the following planes: P47D30,TBM,F6F-5,F4U-1D. A single A20 can toast one SB and a formation of B26's can as well.

"I know your going to come up with some wonky excuse why you won't change a thing. It will sound really good to you as well. Try changing your mind just once though... then a bunch of the people in the CT won't think your such a complete ."

F-off.
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Arlo on December 09, 2003, 07:02:34 PM: That's better ..... it was bugging me. :D :aok
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Airscrew on December 09, 2003, 08:03:36 PM: Arlo, I think I didnt explain my thoughts well enough, I didnt have a lot time while I'm at work.

You're right FM2, I got confused reading about the CAP event and this setup.

I wouldnt say its a point of contention, its just a fustration, and I get over it easily. It wasnt even worth bringing up because it doesnt happen that often. I was only trying to make a point that those two things are the only things that I find fustrating, but that goes for the CT and the MA, Whereas a few individuals seem to think that this particular setup is biased towards Axis and I dont agree.
I do think that the CV's should be hardened maybe twice as hard as they are now and make the shore batteries a little weaker but add more shore batteries

I used fly the F4Us quite a bit, Mostly the F4U-1A, I think it handles better than the C and D (I have more problems with stalling in the C and D than I do in the 1A, but that could just me and I'm doing something wrong) and I have almost no real time in the -4. I'm no expert in them but I hold my own if I fly regularly. I'm now trying to learn the F6F and F4F-FM2.
But I'm also learning the Zero.

One other point, the allies do have an advantage with that CV ack, You can take off with out worring about vulching. The ack coverage on the land bases cant compare to the protection from the CV.
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Arlo on December 09, 2003, 08:10:53 PM: Ok .... understood. Good enough for me and I agree.
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Slash27 on December 09, 2003, 09:03:24 PM: F-off.

No call for that. If you are going to stick to your guns then do so. As much as we disagree about this or that, a staffer telling players to "**** off" is out of line and contributes to your somewhat deserving "this is my sandbox" image.
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: MajorDay on December 09, 2003, 10:50:12 PM: Brady

I know I have say this once, but im going say again. For setup request that I would like to see F4U-1C and -4 on the list for USN and USMC. Just perk them alittle bit like 5 or little higher and i hope this works.

~~Rafe35~~
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: o0Stream140o on December 09, 2003, 11:14:02 PM: Just some friendly reading from one of the links that HTC gives for plane performances to newbies... It's from NetAces... I just think it is funny how they tell people to go here and write stuff like this then come in here and get told another thing... I am sure I will get flamed for this but oh well.

Yak9T

Overview

The Yak9T is not a very common aircraft to encounter though you can't be sure which type of Yak9 you are facing as the icons are identical (Yak9U). The 9U and 9T, even though they are based on the same basic airframe are very different in almost every other way. The 9T is simply a poor fighter, feeling unbalanced and unstable as compared to most other aircraft but under the right conditions it can be brutally effective against bombers or medium attack aircraft.

Firepower

The 9T's claim to fame is a 37mm spinner mounted cannon with can lay an ugly whooping on anyone who is hit by it. The catch is , it's difficult to hit with the 37mm but not because of poor ballistics, more so due to a really slow rate of fire. Ballstics on the big cannon are actually very good, unlike the LW 30mm, but the space between rounds is massive. Add in some dispersion and while you could be lined up perfectly, it could be a while before a round travels straight enough to hit what you are aiming for. Such large shells also consume a lot of room, allowing for only 32 rounds. Backing up the big cannons is a single 12.7mm cowl mounted machine gun which simply doesn't offer enough concentrated firepower to be much use. I think most people only use the 12.7mm in defense or to scare people and I know I tend to leave the fight once the 37mm cannon is depleted of ammunition. The 37mm is highly effective if you are landing hits though, a single shot is almost sure to bring down any fighter and also stands a reasonable chance of knocking out a bomber. Usually though the 37mm is employed against soft vehicles, a task for which it is better suited.

Maneuverability

Maneuverability in the Yak9T is not good, it feels heavy and directionally unstable at some speeds, likely the result of such a large cannon mounted out front. The Yak9T seems to require an extra gentle hand on the stick in order to maintain good control though in high speed pursuits it is quite possible to stay stable. The 9T is actually lighter than the 9U on paper but the balance is very obviously not nearly as good. I wouldn't attempt to slow-turnfight much in a Yak9T as it feels heavy and takes a pretty gentle hand on the controls. In a dive the Yak9T is great though, retaining almost full control at speeds as high as 575mph. This certainly favors quick dives onto a unsuspecting target where you can fire your big cannon at very short ranges and then zoom back up to altitude.

Flying the Yak 9T

Often the Yak9T is used in the ground attack role against vehicles. This isn't a bad role for the plane although it isn't very heavily protected from ground fire and the cannon is no more effective against more lightly armoured vehicles than a few of .50's would be. Against heavier armour the 37mm tends to damage the vehicle but not kill it, at least out-right. I've tried shots from dead rear on units like the Panzer and it does appear to be able to kill them but only at ludicrously short ranges. The short duration of ammunition tends to limit the amount of passes you can make on a target. Fortunately, the 37mm also means that you will typically be awarded the kill if someone else kills the vehicle with any other gun attack since the amount of total damage inflicted by your couple of 37mm hits will be enough to surpass some other attackers.

Against aircraft it is best to have an altitude advantage, dive in behind a target that is unaware of you, and then press home you attack from the low 6 position at very short range. Pop up behind the target and fire at a range where aiming is easy, D150 or closer. A single hit is most likely all you need and you don't necessarily need to plan on landing more than one hit. Even if the plane doesn't break up it is most likely in some way badly damaged and probably won't escape. Turning off tracers gives you a better chance of sneaking up and firing more rounds before you are detected. Don't fire the 12.7mm and give yourself away instead save that for snapshots or in self defense. Snapshots or crossing shots with the 37mm are virtually hopeless unless you are incredibly close.

The Yak9T has limited escape options although everyone will fear your nose so pointing it towards enemy planes is always a good start. I always trying and save at least five 37mm rounds to use for my escape for the purpose of firing 1 or 2 at an enemy who tries to engage from the front. Head-Ons are a mixed bag but typically if you are in a Yak9T you can accept them from a disadvantaged position (and some people use it as the only way they can hit something so press home offensive attacks in this fashion). The main problem with the HO is that you need to survive until very close before you can land your one killing hit and during that time there are too many planes who will punish the Yak9T to the point where you may not even get to fire. Again, don't fire the single 12.7mm, it will distract you with hits that mean little, you absolutely must land a 37mm hit as soon as possible.

Fighting the Yak 9T

The Yak9T is really only dangerous in two situations, where it can setup behind you at close ranges, and where it can find you in a Head-On engagement. I'm not saying that other situations are not dangerous as a single hit from the 37mm is enough to destroy your aircraft, but there are very few people who can accurately use the weapon. You actual chances of catching a 37mm under hard maneuvering are very low though it is dangerous to make that assumption.

Defensively, be alert for the Yak9T and try to identify it early. There are no distinguishing markings to the Yak9T from the much more dangerous 9U but sometimes the style of flying can immediately tell them apart. Where the 9U will typically shy away from Head-On engagements, or try and take shots at longer ranges with it's more flexible guns, the 9T will tend to try and get close and accept any HO type situation it can. You really shouldn't HO a Yak9U because of the proximity of it's cowl mounted weapons, but at least against the 9U you may survive. Against the 9T you are almost certain to die if the bogie has any skill in aiming.

The 32 rounds of ammunition is actually an exploitable weakness, if you can stay at a reasonable range (D400 or more) and the Yak is seen firing the 37mm then you are likely to run him out of ammunition quickly. You can actually see the 37mm firings quite distinctly as the muzzle flash is very bright, far more so than the 20mm of average nose cannons. Jink around, rolling if you can to make aiming more difficult and just wait for him to run out of ammunition. Once his 37mm is dry he is going to have a tough time finishing you off with only a single 12.7mm.

The Yak9T is not very fast and doesn't improve with altitude. They tend to hang out at mid to low altitudes so you can probably get the jump on them most of the time. Be careful not to overshoot one and end up at short range infront. Also, if you hear the tell-tale sounds of 12.7mm pings never dive immediately away since the chances are the large 37mm rounds are passing below you somewhere. If you were to roll inverted and dive you might fly right smack into the softball like 37mm shells.
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Soulyss on December 09, 2003, 11:25:12 PM: perk weenie. :D
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: o0Stream140o on December 09, 2003, 11:40:35 PM: yep.... everyday... even twice on sunday... :rolleyes:
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: brady on December 10, 2003, 12:02:34 AM: MajorDay: I sincerly appricate you taking the time to check your sources and help to confirm that mine were corect in their info, and for taking the time to try and find more than they had to offer. I have always Known (even when I was helping Kanttori to find info for this map) that F4U-4's and C hog's were at Okinawa, Givien the Allies Signastudmuffinant advantages in spead and ordance delevery abalitys in this present set up, I feal that adding the Hog and the -4 would realy be unjustifiable in the present set up( the later more so than the former given that they were operational at the very end of the battle and got only 9 kills for entire war.) I can appricate some one wanting to fly them since they may well be their favorate ride, howeaver I cant justify adding them for any reasion given the curent Japanese plane set.
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Tuck on December 10, 2003, 09:34:12 AM: well....

all i can say is i'm glad i have family coming up saturday, and i'll have company all week to keep me busy.

:mad:
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Batz on December 10, 2003, 10:00:22 AM: Quote
Originally posted by ergRTC
hmm.. looks like the 109s are much much faster. thanks.

Oh this is a bit clearer.

(http://mysite.verizon.net/kjard/1.jpg)

Those are wep speeds hand drawn based on htc charts not tested info.

They are not 100% accurate but you can test the yak9t yourself and you will see the results are much closer and match the g6 nicely with the exception of a few variations. At 7k or so the g6/2 gains about 15mph on the yak9t. That gap closes again until 14.5 above that the 109 advantages becomes definitive. But again those are wep speeds. Below 5k even on wep the speeds are nearly even.

o0Stream140o

That net aces article is neither wholly wrong nor the bible on how to fly it. The yak9t is a maneuverable aircraft; its ammo is enough to run up high kill streaks. When Brady and I first flew together he flew the 9t more then anyone I know. Below 5k in the main or the ct it’s quick enough and maneuverable enough to be competitive.

Quote
Batz at this point you can not reply

I can't? Are you sure? Brady answered you correctly so in actuality there’s not much more I need to say. But I am sure I can come up with something.
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Soulyss on December 10, 2003, 11:12:26 AM: The F4U-1C and -4 aren't needed. What would they contribute to the setup? nil, nadda, zero. To the IJN players they would just be a couple of planes that can run away more and/or faster than the other ones if they were perked because people would be even less inclined to commit to a dogfight with perk points on the line. If they were not perked they would represent the vast majority of allied sorties during the week. Both ways you look at it, it means less fun for the axis flyer. From an allied point of few they are just not needed. Anything the super-hogs can do the -1 and -1D can do, maybe not to the same extend but well enough for the purposes of the setup (ie they both possess superior speed and ord capability o their IJN counter parts). It is in the best interest of all involved as a matter of having fun that the perk planes are left on the sideline till something competitive emerges from the IJN.

Competition and the ability of your opponent to win is what makes for a good battle which I think most would agree a more enjoyable experience. Without both sides being able to engage and defeat the other really makes for a long and stale week in the CT.

just my 2 cents.
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Arlo on December 10, 2003, 12:26:12 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Tuck
well....

all i can say is i'm glad i have family coming up saturday, and i'll have company all week to keep me busy.

:mad:

I'm damned glad too. Maybe you won't piss and moan on the boards all week because it's not custom suited to what you want to play most this time. Me? I play `em all, make the best of it, enjoy it anyway and wait and look forward to my turn. The fact that what I like to play the most in the CT seems to piss off the less flexible "me-me-me" types is just icing on the cake. Now go away. :lol
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Batz on December 10, 2003, 12:45:21 PM: Quote
I'm damned glad too. Maybe you won't piss and moan on the boards all week because it's not custom suited to what you want to play most this time.

lol hey kettle you are black............
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Slash27 on December 10, 2003, 12:45:58 PM: Vote The Bug
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Arlo on December 10, 2003, 12:47:23 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Batz
lol hey kettle you are black............

Never once but you're too stupid to notice. You otoh don't play it if it isn't precisely your cup-o-tea. There ya go. See you up? Mmmmmmmmmright. :D
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Slash27 on December 10, 2003, 12:48:58 PM: Leave Bradys lapdog alone:rofl
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Arlo on December 10, 2003, 12:50:06 PM: It strayed outa it's yard. That makes it free game. :)
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Batz on December 10, 2003, 01:29:48 PM: Arlo you whined for weeks about Brady pulling the f4u-1, you whined for weeks when Brady doesn't err didn’t include it.

Slash its not polite to talk with your mouth full, until you finish off Arlo all I hear is gagging.
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Slash27 on December 10, 2003, 01:56:52 PM: Slash its not polite to talk with your mouth full, until you finish off Arlo all I hear is gagging.

uh... wow good one. Ill have to use that one at recess.
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Batz on December 10, 2003, 02:07:02 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Slash27
Slash its not polite to talk with your mouth full, until you finish off Arlo all I hear is gagging.

uh... wow good one. Ill have to use that one at recess.

No leave the children alone. They have enough trouble with MJ, catholic priests and other assorted perverts.
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Slash27 on December 10, 2003, 03:13:39 PM: Dont forget internet predators lapdog:aok
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: MajorDay on December 10, 2003, 04:05:08 PM: Quote
Originally posted by brady
MajorDay: I sincerly appricate you taking the time to check your sources and help to confirm that mine were corect in their info, and for taking the time to try and find more than they had to offer. I have always Known (even when I was helping Kanttori to find info for this map) that F4U-4's and C hog's were at Okinawa, Givien the Allies Signastudmuffinant advantages in spead and ordance delevery abalitys in this present set up, I feal that adding the Hog and the -4 would realy be unjustifiable in the present set up( the later more so than the former given that they were operational at the very end of the battle and got only 9 kills for entire war.) I can appricate some one wanting to fly them since they may well be their favorate ride, howeaver I cant justify adding them for any reasion given the curent Japanese plane set.
Brady; My idea is that get rid F4U-1(British Corsair) and replace it for F4U-1C on the land base for United State Marines Corp, and also you could make it short perk points.
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Arlo on December 10, 2003, 05:06:31 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Batz
Arlo you whined for weeks about Brady pulling the f4u-1, you whined for weeks when Brady doesn't err didn’t include it.

Slash its not polite to talk with your mouth full, until you finish off Arlo all I hear is gagging.

Wrong dumbatz. I challenged Brady's excuses for first excluding and now limiting the F4U in the CT. I've read the arguments and offered counter-arguments based on the same data used to make the argument. I've even offered concessions. Slow progress is being made. There was a time you and Brady both claimed that the F4U would never be run in a CT setup if either of you had your way. Now Brady is almost close to letting it be in the late Pac setup without it being stuck on a single base in bumfugopia or a single cardboard ship that a lone player in a Val can sink. Almost ....

And I've always supported the CT ... playing in each setup that didn't have technical problems that made it impossible for me to play in it. It didn't matter if it was a setup that I didn't find to be the most appealing. But if I ever do decide to sit one out, I doubt I'll feel some unavoidable compulsion to whine to everyone here about it first. And I sure as hell won't have an obsessive compulsive disorder that forces me to bray here endlessly even after I ... ummm .... "take a break" because I have unresolved luftwhiner issues still.

And that "slam" on Slash was lame even when it hadn't been run through the ringer by every teenager on the internet.

Glad I could set you straight. You're welcome. :D :aok
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Batz on December 10, 2003, 05:33:02 PM: Anyone can type your name in the search feature and see your whining. But that’s a given. What’s not is you pointing the finger at tuck and claiming he whines any more or less then you.

You have always been a whine first type of fellow. Not only that but one of the loudest.

http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=81115

This was the first of many of your whines. I can list those as well.

Maybe you can return the favor for slash that way it will quiet you down at least for a few minutes.

I didn't "slam" slash I just called him out as the ghey sehks allied farm boi he is, much like you. It may have been "lame" but it seemed to bug him into a few well thought out and witty responses.

Besides why are you wasting time here Target Rabaul has a new update. A dedicated pac'r like yourself oughta find it a utopia.
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Arlo on December 10, 2003, 05:56:23 PM: Why when I'm making progress here? It's what happens when you continue to play and participate. ;)
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Batz on December 10, 2003, 06:02:11 PM: Hey you are right you may wear brady down where you want him. Or hell you may make it on the the CT staff and create utopia here.

If it helps I could chime in and say "let them have the chog". But we both know I won't. :p
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: eskimo2 on December 10, 2003, 06:12:07 PM: Wouldn't it be interesting if everyone's name went into a hat and then on Fridays everyone was assigned to one side or the other, without the option of switching sides for a week. I'm not advocating that we actually do this, but I wonder if some folks would want the Super-Hogs in the set-up if they knew they might only see them while flying rice-balls.

I’ll probably fly both sides a bit next week. I’ll bet that I do much better in the big blue planes as the set-up stands now.
Sure, I miss making 800-yard hail-Mary deflection shots in the Chog, but I’m already looking at bad enough odds while I fly for the Rising Sun.

eskimo
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Arlo on December 10, 2003, 06:14:25 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Batz
Hey you are right you may wear brady down where you want him. Or hell you may make it on the the CT staff and create utopia here.

If it helps I could chime in and say "let them have the chog". But we both know I won't. :p

Of course you wont. Hell, you're scared witless over just the F4U-1. Brady doesn't seem to be as fearful of it anymore, though. Besides .... I don't think you have the influence you think you do. Nor have I ever been on the "must have C-Hog" bandwagon. But that's not how you perceive things. Which has always been part of your problem.

Ok ... enough free counciling. From now on you have to pay up front. Check, money order or your Dad's credit card will do. :aok
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Arlo on December 10, 2003, 06:17:31 PM: Quote
Originally posted by eskimo2
Wouldn't it be interesting if everyone's name went into a hat and then on Fridays everyone was assigned to one side or the other, without the option of switching sides for a week. I'm not advocating that we actually do this, but I wonder if some folks would want the Super-Hogs in the set-up if they knew they might only see them while flying rice-balls.

I’ll probably fly both sides a bit next week. I’ll bet that I do much better in the big blue planes as the set-up stands now.
Sure, I miss making 800-yard hail-Mary deflection shots in the Chog, but I’m already looking at bad enough odds while I fly for the Rising Sun.

eskimo

I have flown the George vs. the F4U. I've flown it vs the C-Hog. I can't understand why anyone is scared. *ShruG* :D
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Slash27 on December 10, 2003, 06:53:25 PM: Besides why are you wasting time here Target Rabaul has a new update. A dedicated pac'r like yourself oughta find it a utopia.

I can only imagine how much time your dumbazz spends on their BBS:rofl
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Slash27 on December 10, 2003, 07:01:20 PM: You could have the F4U-C only vs. Jap rides and it wouldnt happen. The Chog is feared too much to be included. Besides,you Ho-ass NiK drivers wouldnt know what to think getting back as good a you giving:D
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Arlo on December 10, 2003, 07:08:14 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Storch
What a bunch of whiners and chicken scratchers. PLEASE put the CHOG and the F4U-4 in.

We will murder them. It is easily defeated with good flying and patience.

Please allow us to do that. But you must take out the FM2 this will be their only salvation.

Let it be

F6F
F4U-4
F4U-c
TBF
B-26
P-40E
P-47D-11

Then let's see how our allied compadres will fare.

Axis dudes please chime in. Am I nuts??

Geez. :rolleyes:

Just leave it all the fug alone. Everyone's used to the .... balanced ... late Pac sets. If it takes limiting the F4U-1 to one paper carrier and the F4U-1D to one paper carrier (and a potential shore base that will be the primary base the IJ tries to defend) ... fine. As long as VF-17 gets it's ride (or alternate) in the CT occasionally. Would be nice to have the F4U-1 in it's standard colors.

Storch .... you said you were considering giving the F4U a go this time. Come on over and fly with VF-17. We'll pass on anything worthwhile we have to offer. If nothing else, we'll keep ya company if we all go in the drink. It's a "band of brothers" type thang. ;)
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: LÃ¶we on December 10, 2003, 07:26:44 PM: Next time theres another late PTO setup, we could just pull this thread out dust it off and use it over again. It's the same guys insulting each other each time. When I was Axis, I always said bring on the F4U's.

You got Storch from JG-3 saying bring on the F4U's. Personally for me I dont care ethier way, I'll be in an F6, or a P-47. However it is a chance for some of the Corsair buffs to get to fly their favorite ride.

I don't see how it could cause all this nashing of teeth. The majority of the guys flying Japanese will be JG-3 , and I think it's pretty obvious , they can take care of themselves no matter what you throw at em.

Give the corsair guys their corsairs, for crying out load. If they fly smart they'll have fun. Anybody flying them because they think it's gonna make them uber........... Well , Storch and a few others will hand em their butts.

For once just do it and see how it plays , so we can cut this same old tired arguement out for a while.

I know what Nizche said, but I say " If it don't make you stronger it might just kill your arse".
:aok
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Batz on December 10, 2003, 07:29:28 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Squire
"As a dedicated axis flyer i can say with complete certainty that if the allies get these rides they will run or they will die."

"We will murder them. It is easily defeated with good flying and patience"

Geez, somebody is kinda full of himself today huh?

...oh Batz, do you have any nice charts that compare the Hurricane I and the 110C-4/b? BoF was the time for a good chart, pity its passed now.

Yak-9T, I like it actually, you can get in close and then :)

As for the F4U-4, I wouldnt hold my breath for it lads. I dont care if its added or not really. It would be nice to see it included as a perk ride maybe, just for fun. Seems to me the LW gets the 540mph Me 262 in a few CT setups? or did we all forget?

Squire I whole heartily agree that the 110C-4b is too much for the BoF and in the thread about that plane set I even said as much. I think the 110 in ah with DB601n isn’t even representative of the 110 in the BoB. I also said the ju88 and Boston should have been out.

My point with the yak 9t was erg made the claim that "g6 and g2 put the 9t to shame." The g6 and g2 certainly have their advantages but so does the 9t. Some of the best fighting I have had in ah was fighting yak9ts in a g6. OTD and below 5k its clearly up to the better pilot. 7-10k the g6 gains. 12 to 15 it’s back to pilot. Above 15k well the yak9t has no business up that high. In either plane you don’t survive many mistakes.

In the Okinawa set up I don’t think the chog is too much air2air. My only concern would be a2g. Its no better or worse then the dhog. But the Hispanos can easily chew up a whole field. The Japanese only have like 6 airbases on the island. Turn off field capture and hell any plane that you cram in setup put it in there.

The F4u-4 had minimal impact in the real battle and if unchecked in this setup it would be 90% of the allied planes in the air.

I agree with Soulyss 100% and think he would be a great CT CM.

Quote
The F4U-1C and -4 aren't needed. What would they contribute to the setup? nil, nadda, zero. To the IJN players they would just be a couple of planes that can run away more and/or faster than the other ones if they were perked because people would be even less inclined to commit to a dogfight with perk points on the line. If they were not perked they would represent the vast majority of allied sorties during the week. Both ways you look at it, it means less fun for the axis flyer. From an allied point of few they are just not needed. Anything the super-hogs can do the -1 and -1D can do, maybe not to the same extend but well enough for the purposes of the setup (ie they both possess superior speed and ord capability o their IJN counter parts). It is in the best interest of all involved as a matter of having fun that the perk planes are left on the sideline till something competitive emerges from the IJN.

Competition and the ability of your opponent to win is what makes for a good battle which I think most would agree a more enjoyable experience. Without both sides being able to engage and defeat the other really makes for a long and stale week in the CT.
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Arlo on December 10, 2003, 07:37:56 PM: " ... both sides being (un)able to engage and defeat the other really makes for a long and stale week in the CT."

Especially since he seems to understand that paper carriers respawning at the South Pole isn't the answer. Maybe he can come in on "Team Bug?" ;)
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: scJazz on December 10, 2003, 08:12:22 PM: Quote
Originally posted by brady
I have always Known (even when I was helping Kanttori to find info for this map) that F4U-4's and C hog's were at Okinawa, Givien the Allies Signastudmuffinant advantages in spead and ordance delevery abalitys in this present set up, I feal that adding the Hog and the -4 would realy be unjustifiable in the present set up( the later more so than the former given that they were operational at the very end of the battle and got only 9 kills for entire war.)

OK this is just the latest example of Brady's no F4U-1C argument. He has repeated himself many times on this subject and we've all read it many times. For the record I'll repeat his comments now in English with proper spelling.

1) The C-Hog is just way too fast
2) The C-Hog has far too much JABO capability
3) The damage the 20mm M2 rounds does is just way too hideous when dealing with the IJN/IJAAF paper airplanes

OK so let's examine each of these items a bit closer.

1) The C-Hog is exactly the same speed as the D-Hog which we are allowed to have.

2) If the C-Hogs JABO ability is considered extreme then why in hell is the P47-D30 included? Jug-30 carries roughly 60% more droppable ordnance, 4060lbs vs 2640lbs. At this point Brady points out the guns causing hellish levels of damage in JABO runs. Right...

The C-Hog goes through 932 rounds of 20mm ammo in 21 seconds. Each round does 4.03lbs of damage to a ground target. This works out to 3755bs of damage for the entire load at 178.85lbs of damage per second.

The P47-D30 goes through 3400 rounds of .50 ammo in 32 seconds. Each round does 1.17lbs of damage to a ground target. This works out to 3978lbs of damage for the entire load at 124.3125lbs of damage per second.

As seen by these figures the P47-D30 has guns capable of delivering about 200lbs more damage to a ground target. However it's guns deliver roughly 70% the damage per second that a C-Hog's can.

3) Look IJN/IJAAF aircraft are paper thin to any kind of gun. If we could get a setup that had Hurri I's and Zeke's we'd see that even a .303 armed plane needs a 0.1 second burst in order to make a Zeke explode. However we can have the P47 which can unload 106 rounds a second. We can not have a plane that fires 44 rounds a second. Even though the 20mm M2 has slightly less range and accuracy than a .50 M2.

An object example using the Shore Batteries as the target (the hardest targets in setup).

P47-D30 dives in and unloads all under carriage weapons. At this point the SB has taken 4060lbs of damage and needs just 940lbs more to blow up. Using guns this will require 7.5 seconds of fire which can be done in 2 to 3 passes. If done perfectly the Jug now has 2596 rounds on board or 76% of its' ammo supply, 23.5 seconds of fire left.

C-Hog dives in and unloads all under carriage weapons. At this point the SB has taken 2640lbs of damage and needs just 2360lbs more to blow up. Using guns this will require 13.2 seconds of fire which can be done in 4 to 6 passes. If done perfectly the C-Hog now has 346 rounds on board or 37% of its' ammo supply, 7.8 seconds of fire left.

Would you rather take the Jug or the Hog on the lone wolf blow up the SB mission?

Gun and Rocket damage source is myself as posted in Aircraft and Vehicles forum, "Analysis of Aircraft Guns" thread.

So what is the conclusion we can draw from all of this?
1) Brady's whole C-Hogs are too good at JABO argument is junk. You can tell it is junk because we can have a P47-D30.
2) Since the D-Hog and C-Hog are both SLOWER than the Hog-1 that whole "too speedy" thing is junk as well.
3) Brady is stating opinions about what he thinks a C-Hog is capable of rather than using facts backed up by math. Which is pretty much what we've come to expect.
4) Brady pretty much doesn't know squat about the AH environment and has never taken the time to learn. Kinda weird considering the responsibility he has been given.

Oh, as an added bonus the cannon armed IJN/IJAAF aircraft can strafe a GV much more easily than the MG armed Allied AC. I won't even mention the conga line streams of KI67s heading toward the CVs and what a pain it is to blast them with MGs.

Brady... if I had the money I'd buy you a whole warehouse full of clues!
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Slash27 on December 10, 2003, 08:20:18 PM: I'll give that post a "10". Nice Jazz:aok Whats the N1K's Jabo ability vs the C-Hog?
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: scJazz on December 10, 2003, 08:49:22 PM: The C-Hog ranks #9 on my list of "Planes that can beat the stuffing out of hardened ground targets". The N1K2-J is #19. The P47-D30 is #1. Two perk planes the Hog-4 and Tempest are in the top 20 (obviously Hog-D and Hog-4 are tied for #7. The F4U-1D ranks #7 which I'm kicking myself about since I forgot to thwack Brady upside the head with the fact that the D-Hog is better at JABO than the C-Hog.

Plane Total Dam ORD Guns ORD+1/2Guns
---------------------------------------------------
P-47-D30 3978 4060 3978 6049
N1K2-J 3465 1100 3465 2832.5
F4U-1C 3696 2640 3696 4472
F4U-1D 2808 3248 2808 4652
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Slash27 on December 10, 2003, 08:53:39 PM: Thanks for the figures
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: scJazz on December 10, 2003, 08:57:51 PM: If you want the whole stinking list just send an email to my profile and I'll send back the spreadsheet.
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Oldman731 on December 11, 2003, 07:51:32 AM: Quote
Originally posted by Löwe
For once just do it and see how it plays , so we can cut this same old tired arguement out for a while.

Trust it to Lowe to cut to the heart of matters. I agree. The setup lasts only a week. Unleash all Corsairs, from all bases, let every allied pilot fly one, see what happens.

Or: If we think we can't stand it for a whole week, do it on Friday and Saturday only (or some other combination).

- oldman
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Eagler on December 11, 2003, 08:03:03 AM: this thread and others just like it posted everytime CT is a PTO setup is proof that CT should always be an ETO scenerio :)
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Mister Fork on December 11, 2003, 08:40:31 AM: The setup is fair. Lots of planes on the US side, good strong defenders on the Japanese side.

Brady's volunteering his time to set this map up, which by the way will take a few hours. Setups are very time consuming and he's spending his free time to help all you guys.

Time is money and when someone gives it away for free, please respect that the CT staff is giving it away in bunches here in the CT.
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: scJazz on December 11, 2003, 09:45:22 AM: Never said his time wasn't valuable Fork. What I said was...

1) He doesn't know what he's talking about
2) He is inflexible to the point of foolishness
3) I'd rather have Jester do the setup because at least you can talk to him
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: brady on December 11, 2003, 12:19:26 PM: The C hog is being left out not because of it's potential distructive capabalitys, but because it is uber, thats why it was perked in the MA, the ease with which it does everything (killing and distruction) is the reasion, as it was the reasion HTC perked it.

Just because I dont agree with a point a player makes does not make me inflexable, their are plenty of examples of me tweaking things one way or another in many of my set up's based on observations by players and staff, to back this up.
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Easyscor on December 11, 2003, 12:58:35 PM: ROLF

All this plane whinning and poking sticks in Brady's eye. I haven't seen an unfair setup in the CT yet and we have to fly the Boston IIIs far more than I'd like but you won't hear us complain about it.

As for Brady not listening, he added the B-26 to this very setup when it was pointed out our squad would have to fly Peggys and sink all the Allied CVs. Be glad he saw the need to stop that or you wouldn't have any CVs to fly from. :p
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Arlo on December 11, 2003, 01:06:38 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Eagler
this thread and others just like it posted everytime CT is a PTO setup is proof that CT should always be an ETO scenerio :)

Cod yer bein' a real handsomehunk. :rofl
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Shane on December 11, 2003, 01:07:47 PM: Quote
Originally posted by brady
The C hog is being left out not because of it's potential distructive capabalitys, but because it is uber, thats why it was perked in the MA, the ease with which it does everything (killing and distruction) is the reasion, as it was the reasion HTC perked it.

bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzztttttttttttttttttttttttt!!

WRONG![/b]

not to mention a totally self-contradictory statement.

CT=left out not to destruction ability, but due to uberness.
MA=perked due to uberness because of destruction ability.

it was perked in the MA because every freekin' dweeb was in one.
constantly.... over an extended period of time. do some research on this matter.

and the MA perk price on it now is laughably small, but effective.

add it to the setup... perk it at 2-3 perkies.
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Mister Fork on December 11, 2003, 01:25:45 PM: Quote
Originally posted by scJazz
Never said his time wasn't valuable Fork. What I said was...

1) He doesn't know what he's talking about
2) He is inflexible to the point of foolishness
3) I'd rather have Jester do the setup because at least you can talk to him

Shane/scJazz et all concerned, you're all experts in CT setups and side balancing? Really? Strange, your not on the CT staff.

Point 1
PTO setups are ALWAYS hard to balance. If we threw in every historical plane available, the IJN and the Japanese Army would have two modern fighter planes to fly (Zeke and George) versus the P-38L, P-47D-11, P-47D-25, P-47D30, P-51B, P-51D, F4U-1C,F4U-D,F6F-6, and the FM2.

Umm...that's two choices versus ten. Unbalanced like an elephant and a mouse on a tetter-totter.

For balancing sake, we're not including a lot of aircraft. When HTC adds more Japanese fighter aircraft, we'll add more USN and Amry/Air Force planes.

Point 2
You're all looking a gifted horse in the mouth and calling the kettle black at the same time. Every once in a while, a setup causes a lot of arguements back and forth. I also recognize you're complaining because you care about the setup. Let Brady do his job to balance the arena.

You bash Brady, get his back up, then get your knickers in a knot when he tries to counter his points to a crowd that unfortunately is a bit brutal.

If you think we're doing a bad job, volunteer to join the CT staff and put your money where your mouth is... your free time.
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Sikboy on December 11, 2003, 01:31:10 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Mister Fork
If you think we're doing a bad job, volunteer to join the CT staff and put your money where your mouth is... your free time.

-Sik
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Arlo on December 11, 2003, 01:37:00 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Mister Fork

Brady's volunteering his time to set this map up, which by the way will take a few hours. Setups are very time consuming and he's spending his free time to help all you guys.

Time is money and when someone gives it away for free, please respect that the CT staff is giving it away in bunches here in the CT. [/B]

My time is money too, handsomehunk.

I'm tired of hearing the same old sad "We're here sacrificing ourselves just so all of you can have more fun so stfu and let us do whatever the hell we want to with our sandbox" crap from you everytime Brady or anybody gets negative feedback. Again ... if it's so damned hard on yas ... quit. There've been several players volunteer their own expensive time to fill in.

btw ... if Brady wasn't going to the trouble of making the ship toughness paper and the shore batteries and ack toughness plutonium to "balance" things ... it would probably take a lot less of his expensive time.

Thanks and have a good day.

~~;) :aok~~
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Arlo on December 11, 2003, 01:54:31 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Easyscor
ROLF

All this plane whinning and poking sticks in Brady's eye. I haven't seen an unfair setup in the CT yet and we have to fly the Boston IIIs far more than I'd like but you won't hear us complain about it.

As for Brady not listening, he added the B-26 to this very setup when it was pointed out our squad would have to fly Peggys and sink all the Allied CVs. Be glad he saw the need to stop that or you wouldn't have any CVs to fly from. :p

He didn't add it, handsomehunk. He forgot to list it. :lol
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: scJazz on December 11, 2003, 02:01:28 PM: Quote
Originally posted by brady
Givien the Allies Signastudmuffinant advantages in spead and ordance delevery abalitys in this present set up, I feal that adding the Hog and the -4 would realy be unjustifiable in the present set up( the later more so than the former given that they were operational at the very end of the battle and got only 9 kills for entire war.)

Quote
Originally posted by brady
The C hog is being left out not because of it's potential distructive capabalitys, but because it is uber, thats why it was perked in the MA, the ease with which it does everything (killing and distruction) is the reasion, as it was the reasion HTC perked it.

Just because I dont agree with a point a player makes does not make me inflexable, their are plenty of examples of me tweaking things one way or another in many of my set up's based on observations by players and staff, to back this up.

OK make up your mind please. First you said that the F4U-1C is too fast and way too good at JABO these are both quantifiable values as I have quantified for you. Then you said that the plane is too Uber which is a subjective statement and perhaps not really quantifiable. If it is too quantifiable perhaps it can be quantified as being effectively similar to other aircraft which you do put in your Okinawa setup. In a new twist you throw out the fact that the F4U-1C is perked in the MA for a reason.

I'll refer you back to my post with all the math and quantifiable values. I'll also add further comments to you new points.

1) Just what in the heck is Uber anyway??? In translation it is shown to be the same as great or super. Anyone could just as easily refer to the N1K2-Js ability to turn on a dime and unload a face full of the second most uber 20mm cannon available. Certainly one of the top 5 planes with this uber capability.

2) OK you brought up the subject of the MA I didn't. Since you did I'll remind you that the hardness settings of the MA are not the hardness settings you typically use for this setup.

SBs: 5k
CAs: 4k
DDs, CRs: 2k
AAA: 50lbs
Hangers: 3k
Fuel, Ammo, Troops, Dar, Buildings, etc: 500lbs (I'm guessing about this one don't remember you ever actually stating it.)

In the MA a F4U-1C can wipe out a Hanger in a single pass fire the rockets, drop the bombs, and tweak the cannon for about 1 second and boom, gone. Your hangers are harder by 10% in fact just enough harder that only the expert Hog JABO sticks will be able to pull it off. Those less skilled will face plant at a considerable portion of Mach. Actually hell on this item alone I'd like to see the F4U-1C included. I'll spend hours in the Tower just watching them rain out of the sky. The other technique that was made famous in the MA for dealing with CAs was to have a pair of F4U-1C fly kamikaze missions The two together stood a reasonable chance of blasting it out of the water and even had cannon to back themselves up if they missed with some of the ORD. 4 F4U-1Cs could destroy the CA using guns alone. This really hosed up Carrier battles at sea. Of course... in your setup there are no IJN CA task forces so this isn't really a problem. Even better you lower ship hardness so that any plane can do it. Hell even N1Ks stand a good chance of wasting the CRs. Last a single F4U-1C could cause a lot of problems for a small airfield in single passes you could watch as every bit of fuel on the base was blasted by 1 crazed pilot in the MA. Larger airfields aren't much more secure in the MA. The same pilot could lay waste to fuel if he were good. Perhaps bringing a wingman pretty much assures success. Well darn look at the Okinawa maps. To say that those bases have extremely good supplies is an understatement. I looked quickly at two bases in the map. The smallest had the following...

7 Fuel
5 Ammo
4 Troops
15 AAA
2 SBs

I doubt that a single F4U-1C pilot can wipe out that much stuff to pork the base. A single P47-D30 can't do it and it has more droppable ORD!!! A squadron of either could pull it off 4 pilots working together in a coordinated strike? Yah. Of course hell that just means a target rich environment filled with heavies!

Last if you don't want them used as suicidal JABOs perk 'em! 5 Perks each and the incidence of crazed JABO runs drops to a really low value. Better yet they will be less likely to HO you! This is exactly why they are perked in the MA! In the Okinawa setup in the CT I've shown just how much less effective than a P47 they are in this role though.

Finally, I honestly can not remember a time when you considered one of our suggestions. Really... totally evades me when this happened last!

Look I know the IJ forces get screwed on plane availability. Substitute some stuff dang it! Ju-88s for med bombers, 109s or 205s or some other such hi altitude buff hunters. Dang if you want you can bloody well remove a few US AC. Ditch the damn Jug so when we argue about this you won't get confused by the JABO issue! P47s are included in plenty of ETO setups anyway.

Do not remove the Hellcat as it has nothing to do with any of this! The freaking Hog sucks anyway! So much happier in my kitty!
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Arlo on December 11, 2003, 02:04:42 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Mister Fork
Shane/scJazz et all concerned, you're all experts in CT setups and side balancing? Really? Strange, your not on the CT staff.

Point 2
You're all looking a gifted horse in the mouth and calling the kettle black at the same time.

If you think we're doing a bad job, volunteer to join the CT staff and put your money where your mouth is... your free time.

1. Vote Bug. Gonna happen? Not as long as the current staff has input on who their replacements are.

2. Again .... it's not "gifted horse." The saying isn't about a circus horse ... it's about a horse that's a gift. That makes it "gift horse." Meaning if you receive a horse as a gift, don't be too picky. And all you're really saying there is "since we volunteered to do this stfu and let us do any damned thing we want to with our sandbox."

There's not a single damned CT staffer that volunteered for the job against their will. If you didn't enjoy it, I fuggin' guarantee you wouldn't have stuck with it a week. And I don't give a flip if you're monetarily reimbursed for your time or not. That doesn't alleviate you from the responsibility you have to administrate the arena in a way that makes it enjoyable for all ... to the best of your ability. That means both sides. That means making changes if you get negative feedback from the majority. Especially if you get it from both sides.

3. Again. Vote Bug. Gonna happen? Not as long as the current staff has input on who their replacements are.
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Batz on December 11, 2003, 02:17:25 PM: There's 2 or 3 cms that are hanging on as reserves. Maybe you should ask them to clear out and make room for you. I don't know about the cms picking their replacements. When I left I suggested they grab Soulyss. But they didn't.

Have you called HT and asked that he consider a CT CM rotation?

What did he say?

Anyway
Vote Eskimo
the ETO
is the way to go!!!
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Skyfoxx on December 11, 2003, 02:20:00 PM: I wouldn't mind seeing the 110G subbed for the Ki45 at some point. The speeds are close, the armament is a bit off but it would not be a huge stretch imo.

Vote TheBug :aok
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Arlo on December 11, 2003, 02:24:56 PM: La-7 for the Ki-100! :cool: :aok
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Arlo on December 11, 2003, 02:27:14 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Batz
There's 2 or 3 cms that are hanging on as reserves. Maybe you should ask them to clear out and make room for you. I

Hey ... it's not like everyone didn't know all that "STFU, we're volunteers! If you know so much volunteer yourself!" crap was just that. :lol
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Slash27 on December 11, 2003, 02:56:02 PM: Shane/scJazz et all concerned, you're all experts in CT setups and side balancing? Really? Strange, your not on the CT staff.

Yeah, what do you guys know? Stupid players. Always bringing up "facts" and "statistics". Why dont you just shut up and play like the CT staff thinks you should?
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: brady on December 11, 2003, 03:24:47 PM: I never said it was faster or caried a heaver payload, the whole allied plane set is this way for the most part, they have it realy good in this regard, so adding the C hog would just make it even more outa wack do to it's inhearent strengths.

It is not going to be added I dont care what numbers you throw at me, it is a judgment call and I am making it, I dont realy care that your not seeing my way a lot of folks never will nore should they, it is the nature of creating CT set up's not everyone will be happy all the time.

If you dont like go fly in the MA.
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Shane on December 11, 2003, 03:49:53 PM: Originally posted by Mister Fork
Shane/scJazz et all concerned, you're all experts in CT setups and side balancing? Really? Strange, your not on the CT staff.

HERRING [/size]

as a player i'm as expert at setups and side balancing as any CT staffer. your only edge would be knowing the ins/outs of actually setting up remotely via whatever tool HTC has provided for that.
just because one "volunteers" it doesn't mean one must become a rigid, blinders-wearing jackhole. and not all are. brady is too inflexible to player input because it's progressing to the point of open hostilities, and perhaps this is making him more resistent to considering these suggestions. perhaps it's time for brady to take a break.

Point 1
PTO setups are ALWAYS hard to balance.
For balancing sake, we're not including a lot of aircraft. When HTC adds more Japanese fighter aircraft, we'll add more USN and Amry/Air Force planes.

so do what you already do, highlight certain operations/aircraft, just do it with a little more varity than the same old tired f4f, fm2, p40. the 38's are almost never, ever included in a PTO setup and it was one plane that had a huge impact in the PTO.

do hogs/cats vs george, tony, zeke5.. add the chog and f4u4, perk them 2-5 points. tweak target hardness to minimize the non-existent point of uber-destructo capability. okiwana... blacksheep... bong and mcguire's milieu... the ponys and jugs later in the war. just limit the allies to a few certain types. i think most who would fly axis could deal with it. i know i could.

the jug/tony setup a while back was quite enjoyable and the jug could hold it's own vs the tony, even at a slow tnb.

Point 2
Every once in a while, a setup causes a lot of arguements back and forth. I also recognize you're complaining because you care about the setup. Let Brady do his job to balance the arena.

ever notice the loudest arguments usually revolve around brady's setups? perhaps many think brady is not quite balancing it in a way that many would find acceptable?

If you think we're doing a bad job, volunteer to join the CT staff and put your money where your mouth is... your free time.

and should we be allowed to vote which CM we think is doing the least well and have him step aside to make room for someone who *is* interested? how much input does current staff have in selecting a new CMer? does HTC have any input or do they just take your recommendation?

fwiw, i generally never whine about setups. i will at times make a suggestion and not get all bent out of shape if it's not implemented.

i am, however, seeing a lot of animosity being built up by the players vs certain staff.

here's something to mull over. we're (all) paying customers. a handful are "volunteers." i honestly don't think it'd take a whole lot of effort (coordinated) to have HTC look into things and see if any chnages are called for in the CT.

personally i don't particularly care, as i mentioned - i can take it or leave it. but.... there seem to be a growing number who are getting a little frustrated. without them, you'd have nothing to volunteer for, so to speak.
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Shane on December 11, 2003, 03:51:32 PM: Quote
Originally posted by brady
If you dont like go fly in the MA.

no... if they don't like it, they could start an email campaign to have HTC reconsider your ability to maintain good customer relations and make sound judgements in your "volunteer" position.

not that i care one way or another.
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Tuck on December 11, 2003, 04:06:27 PM: arlo. before, i simply suspected it. now, i'm sure of it...you get your jollies off of making an bellybutton of yourself.

my post in no way affected you, but you just had to go attacking me. is your life really so pathetic?

if i thought for a second that i'd have a kid that would grow up to be like you, i'd masterbate up against a wall and beat the life out of my own sperm as it trickled down to the floor with a baseball bat.
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: daddog on December 11, 2003, 04:20:35 PM: ergRTC where did you view that chart?

I lost the link to that and wanted to use it a week or so again.

Thanks in advance!
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: brady on December 11, 2003, 04:32:01 PM: Hear daddog:

http://www.jannousiainen.net/online_sims/jg_4/index.htm
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Arlo on December 11, 2003, 04:42:48 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Tuck

if i thought for a second that i'd have a kid that would grow up to be like you, i'd masterbate up against a wall and beat the life out of my own sperm as it trickled down to the floor with a baseball bat.

Ah .... so life for you wouldn't be any different. Hey, piss and moan all you want about Pac setups and how it means you'll have to beat-off with a baseball bat this coming week to get your jollies instead. If I wanna laugh at you acting silly, I will. Especially if it results in you having to take anger masturbation management classes. Though, personally, I don't think there's such a thing as excessive measures involving you and birth control. :D
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Arlo on December 11, 2003, 04:53:17 PM: Oh ... and pfffffft. :p :D
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: LtMagee on December 11, 2003, 05:09:49 PM: I have now been playing AH for almost two years or so. I pay my cash just like all you other guys/gals....however, when do we get a chance to fly some planes in the CT thatI have yet to see in here?

The Comet was available a week or so ago but the base capture thing kept it far enough behind the front lines that it didnt get flown.

I would like to see the F4U-C (20mm guns right?) in the CT to be an interceptor against the Ki-67s. Perk it 5 points. If the Ki-67s 20mm will certainly clean out ones perks fairly quick. :aok
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: scJazz on December 11, 2003, 05:46:15 PM: Brady go back and read the quotes I included in my posts from you. Ya bloody well did say that its' JABO and speed were an issue. Then you reversed course and called it Uber. Now your denying that you said it! :confused:

Put the damn crack pipe down!:eek:

At least your last post shows your true colors...
It isn't going to be added because you said so and nothing anyone can say or point out will change it because it is your sandbox to frickin play in!:mad:

Oh and BTW Shane, Arlo, LTMagee, Tuck... one of you needs to disagree with me and call me an idiot or something cuz it scares me that we are all on the same side of this argument.:aok
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Arlo on December 11, 2003, 05:49:04 PM: Jazz .... you handsomehunk! Better? :D
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: TheBug on December 11, 2003, 05:54:25 PM: Quote
Originally posted by brady

It is not going to be added I dont care what numbers you throw at me, it is a judgment call and I am making it, I dont realy care that your not seeing my way a lot of folks never will nore should they, it is the nature of creating CT set up's not everyone will be happy all the time.

If you dont like go fly in the MA.

Vote Bug, Vote Eskimo, Vote Arlo.... Hell vote for anybody, doesn't make a difference to me. Seems apparent to everybody except a few certain CT staffers, that there is a need for CT staff rotation.

Oh yeah, Mr Fork you can go fork yourself. You don't even fly in the CT, who the hell are you preaching to. I volunteer for the job, why don't you quit?

Vote Bug!!:aok
Title: Attention! Attention!
Post by: Arlo on December 11, 2003, 06:25:53 PM: (the loudspeaker on the pole in the middle of the compound crackles)

Attention! Attention!

Just to be clear ....

I don't care if Brady stays or steps down.

Hell ..... let's all pitch in and buy him a plaque ... either way.

Just don't try to fill my boots with the "gifted horse" stfu thang.

Que sera sera.

And ....

Tonight's movie is ...

"The Volunteers"[/i]

Wild and zany comedy about peace corps volunteers that sacrifice their time as well as their social life to go overseas and help those ... those who need their time and ... social skills.

Starring Tom Hanks and John Candy.

Bravely dodging bullets, grenades and bayonets ... no wait ... sorry. That was last weeks movie.

Ummm .....

That is all.
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Soulyss on December 11, 2003, 07:31:44 PM: Quote
Especially since he seems to understand that paper carriers respawning at the South Pole isn't the answer. Maybe he can come in on "Team Bug?"

I'm not sure what this "Team Bug" issue is but maybe I can clarify why I cannot think of a better way to run this setup/scenario

First off I'm making an asumption

Brady wanted base capture to be possible without being dominating. To this end he lowered the hardness of the CV's and increased that of the shore batteries. This effectively keeps the cv fleets from parking off shore and shelling an area into oblivion. Plus the 8K rule was set with MA standards in mind where most attackers will be carrying in or around 2k of bombs/rockets/whatever. In this setup the IJN can for the most part carry less than that unless I'm totally off my rocker.

The flipside of this thinking is that morons are going to drive the ships right up to the coastline anyway because who wants to fly 3 minutes to get to the battle when you can fly 3 seconds.

......
and now theyare throwing me out of the office so I will have to edit this after I get home. :D

.... ok home... now where the hell was I and what in the hell was my point.....

oh right ( I think) anyway the cv's are vulnerable and it is a bit of a pain to lose them and have to drive them up from the south. But I think the CM's visit the arena enough during peak hours that if need be the fleets can be moved about to facilitate good fun battles. I guess I consider this a fair compromise the benefits of not having a fleet parked near your base (which drives me up the fall in setups like Guadalcanal) against the possible loss of your favorite plane for a period of time.

I think the job of the CM is about finding those compromises sometimes it works out and most people are happy others you miss your mark and it takes some tweaking to strike the right balance. In this case I think Brady has gotten the setup pretty well tuned. I've flown both sides and had an enjoyable time. I still don't think the chog/-4 need to be included not that I'm deathly afraid of the 20mm cannons in the chog just that it would regulate the -1D to a secondary role when historically the reverse was true. It just doesn't add anything to the scenario, neither does the F4u-4.

I'm not a big Brady cheerleader we've had our arguments in the past and I've quietly disagreed with him on numerous other occasions but in this case I feel that he has arrived at planeset that offers the BEST CHANCE for the MOST people to have a good time.

I think I made sense just now... maybe not... who knows, it's tough writing a msg over the course of 6+ hours and keeping your point clear, and I tend to ramble. :D
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: scJazz on December 11, 2003, 08:08:38 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Arlo
Jazz .... you handsomehunk! Better? :D

Jeezus thank you Arlo great lookin out... I could take 1 or even 2 of you guys agreein with me but all 4 wuz freakin me out!
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Arlo on December 11, 2003, 08:34:27 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Soulyss

Brady wanted base capture to be possible without being dominating.

Dominating? Brady needs to worry less about the axis "being dominated" and more about the practicality of the map.

To this end he lowered the hardness of the CV's and increased that of the shore batteries. This effectively keeps the cv fleets from parking off shore and shelling an area into oblivion.

Sounds like almost a plausible excuse but it really isn't. Unless Brady wants to enable goons on the CVs (and I don't think anyone wants that) LVTs are needed for the allied side to take a base. His setup requires the allies to take a base before several of the planes supposedly available in the setup can be used (as well as the allies getting a shore spawn for the F4U). Launching LVTs from a sector away isn't a practical option. So in the end it sounds more like a "pretense" to making a setup that allows the allies more latitude that really ends up being a setup where the axis can launch from bases that need little defense against the allies who are launching from easy to sink ships. Does this really sound like a practical way to approach things to you?

Dominating?

Hell ... Brady has always gone to extreme measures ... never trying a little bit here or there. Harden the shore defenses AND soften the ships! Hell. On top of that let's mark the F4U fleets for easier elimination.

Does this sound like Brady isn't trying to set up the f4U to be easily eliminated from the equation by a single dedicated axis pilot who's decided the Corsair is "being abused?"

On shelling the shore bases:

That's the obvious main function of the cruiser in Ace's High. That and ship vs ship slugfests. If Brady wants to eliminate shore shelling then he can see about eliminating cruisers. But since a major goal of the allies is to capture at least one base via beach assault, that's kind of silly.

Plus the 8K rule was set with MA standards in mind where most attackers will be carrying in or around 2k of bombs/rockets/whatever. In this setup the IJN can for the most part carry less than that unless I'm totally off my rocker.

On the Japanese "inability" to put ordinance on a fleet:

A single Peggy formation can carry over 4,000 lbs of destruction:

15 50kg bombs or
8 100kg bombs or
3 250kg bombs or
1 500kg bomb or
1 800kg Torpedo ...

per bomber.

Peggy formations are quite resiliant to being attacked, as well. If that's not good enough to sink CVs then there's ineptness involved which shouldn't concern the staff in it's setup.

The flipside of this thinking is that morons are going to drive the ships right up to the coastline anyway because who wants to fly 3 minutes to get to the battle when you can fly 3 seconds.

Again ... the ships will have to get in range to make a beach assault. If they're in range of that ... they're in range of waves of Peggies. In range of shore batteries as well.

And to all of this you say that there's no better way to it.

But I hardly think that setting up the arena in a way to sink any fleet that approaches the island to make a shore assault (or for that matter ... even a sector away and launching planes to fight in a battle that's definately longer than 3 minutes away) is supporting both side's ability to reach and engage each other in combat and in the planes that are supposedly available for use on a regular basis.

There is no practical reason for softening the fleets of the side that relies competely on them.

I've heard braggadocio from some here that says if the allies can't effectively manage their paper fleets to keep them safe then they have only themselves to blame. My retort is that if the axis can't handle the typical AH shore assault and bombardment then likewise ... no need for a staffer to tie one hand behind the allied side's back to help them.

Oh ...

And no, I don't expect Brady to read this and go "I never considered it that way before, Arlo! You're right. I'm going to 'balance' things a little less now." I just wanted to see if you still think it's all hunky-dory. *ShruG*
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Soulyss on December 11, 2003, 08:46:57 PM: Some good points there Arlo I'm not convinced that the allies are really that bad off, it's just not the case from my point of view based on the experiences I've had in this setup.

It seems to me that the allies have had little trouble getting a foothold on the island and the axis sooner or later get the numbers and drive them off. Occasionally I've been sans my favorite plane because it's cv was at the bottom of the ocean somewhere but that never really bothered me much. Maybe I'm biased because, (and not making any asumptions about you) I can have a good time flying a F4U, F6F, P47, A6M, N1k, Ki-61, whatever that these things don't bother me too much.

Based on what I've seen the setup is balanced about as well as anyone could hope for. If you're experiences haven't been the same then I'm sorry that other people haven't enjoyed it as much as I have, but I can only call 'em like I see 'em.
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Arlo on December 11, 2003, 08:59:48 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Soulyss
Maybe I'm biased because, (and not making any asumptions about you) I can have a good time flying a F4U, F6F, P47, A6M, N1k, Ki-61, whatever that these things don't bother me too much.

:D

I belong to a dedicated F4U squadron that lives for the occasional moment where the Corsair is available in it's historic setting. We mostly prefer the F4U-1 in it's standard AH paint since it represents the squadron we have chosen to virtualy portray: VF-17. But we're nearly as happy in the F4U-1D if need be. Many of us are fans of that squad ... not just the F4U.

While I'm more than willing to be more flexible when it comes to other setups ... the late Pac setting featuring the Corsair is just too rare. Having it relegated to "token status" when it comes around just because a staffer has unrealistic fears about it "unbalancing" the setup sucks.
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: daddog on December 11, 2003, 09:46:18 PM: Thanks Brady.

That is just what I was looking for. :)
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Slash27 on December 12, 2003, 12:26:31 AM: Based on what I've seen the setup is balanced about as well as anyone could hope for. If you're experiences haven't been the same then I'm sorry that other people haven't enjoyed it as much as I have, but I can only call 'em like I see 'em.

The set up is close to being as good as it gets for PAC. The decrease in fleet hardness while making SBs harder to take out, along with having the fleet respawn several sectors out is the hang up. Why Brady refuses to adjust either one or the other is beyond me. A simple fix would satisfy most of us. It seems he takes any and as suggestions as whines and dismisses anything people have to say about his set ups as a personel attack. Which is becoming the case due to the frustration factor. He could alieviate some of this but he refuses to budge. That along with his attitude of "F'k off" and "go fly the MA" makes you wonder if he is no longer suited for his position as a staffer. Dig up any thread on PAC and its the same old song and dance. Long drawn out threads(arguments) with no problems solved,no comprimises made, no attempts of any kind at common ground. Some guys post in haste and anger which only hampers any positive progress, Im guilty as anyone at times. I try not too anymore but what can I say? I dont wish for Brady to be removed because I think he enjoys his position, and the guy is a wealth of information. I dont think he's a bad guy. But there is a problem and the bad is outweighing the good right now. I doubt any of us think the staffers should change set ups any time a player feels something is off, and no one disputes the work they put into their set ups. But his apparent refusal to to listen to players input in anyway is bull****. While Arlo and Shane give people alot of grief on here, the make very valid points aswell.(you too Jazz:D ) This is our arena, all of us. Not personal sanbox we have the privlage to play in. Brady needs to work with the players or hit the road. I'd rather him just work it out. Which brings up another question. Why does he even mess with a PAC set up when time after time we have the same problems? Is it a " Ill show them" thing? Makes no sense and saps the fun out of this game at times.
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: brady on December 12, 2003, 01:54:36 AM: Normal MA setings for SB's would require two planes to kill them (given the present allied set up), Curently the larger Hardness seting requires Two planes to hit the target with all their ordance, about the only real diferance is that the planes nead make accurate drops.
The only real impact this higher seting has is if the CV comander wants to run his ships up on shore without having had air assests take them out, somthing easly done. I dont want the CV's parked on the beach with their ack envelope over the airfield, it's bad for game play and the ships dont nead to be this close to launch LVT's. The higher seting means if the gun is up a gunner has a good chance in a dual with a CA gunner to sink the primary ship(S) in the TF. the TF's have like 4 to times as many ships as a normal MA fleat does BTW.
Heck the Allies dont even nead to use their CV's for thsi they have a 4 CA felat they can use.

Ship hardness is half that of the MA, but the best load any Japanese plane can cary (other than a Peggy) is 1K of bombs, so were talking 4 Japanese planes (George or Tony) in a sucide Jabo run to sink a CV, if we were at MA normal setings it would take the same number of Allied planes to do the same thing.
Shure you could use a Peggy formation but not all their bombs will ever hit a CV. Most Peggys kill CV with torps, at half hardness it takes two as aposed to three torps to sink a CV.

The Fleats on this map enjoy the most intense ack on any of our maps we use in the CT.

I realy dont think any of the complaints about these settings are anything more than a bunch of whines, givien the Japanese capabalitys and the Allied ones, they seam prety lame imo.

Yes the same handfull of folks complaine about them each time the set up is ran and each time I explaine this and that and each time we reach the same impass. My goal is to creat a balanced and viable set up for each side. Whats yours? Every seting and plane choice as a consequence, the old yen and yang thing. I see many of these complaints by the same folks and see the same agendas, regreatably many of which are less than fully objective ones.

I will say this though, as much of a royal pain as this is at times I want you all to list any objections any of you ever have on any of my set up's, I want to hear them, I am not above making a mistake or two, the present set has had three magor changes to it over the time of it's running, one Wildcats were enabled at all bases(they were only on the CV's), two, The B26 was added (set up before this one), VH hardness was increased to 5K (second set up).
Now try and bear this in mind, if you object to somthing I do in a set up and I respond to it, and dont agree with you, then tuff tittys, it aint personal, I have to make these deshions as a staffer, every staffer does.
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Slash27 on December 12, 2003, 02:06:23 AM: The only real impact this higher seting has is if the CV comander wants to run his ships up on shore without having had air assests take them out, somthing easly done. I dont want the CV's parked on the beach with their ack envelope over the airfield, it's bad for game play and the ships dont nead to be this close to launch LVT's.

Unless you happen to feel like taking over the fleet, parking it on the beach and poping guys as they up, in the meantime you get the enire fleet wasted and sent back to the spawn point. If thats your idead of gameplay then you do need to go.

I realy dont think any of the complaints about these settings are anything more than a bunch of whines, givien the Japanese capabalitys and the Allied ones, they seam prety lame imo.

Ever think you could be wrong? Stupid question.:rolleyes:

. I see many of these complaints by the same folks and see the same agendas, regreatably many of which are less than fully objective ones.

What do you think our "agenda" is? Taking your precious sandbox away?
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: brady on December 12, 2003, 02:53:42 AM: "Unless you happen to feel like taking over the fleet, parking it on the beach and poping guys as they up, in the meantime you get the enire fleet wasted and sent back to the spawn point. If thats your idead of gameplay then you do need to go. "

Bases nead to be taken thats the objective, if a cordanated atack ocures and the fleat get's their they take down the defensies and take the base then so be it.

"Ever think you could be wrong? Stupid question"

Shure I do, that why I said above I want you all to coment, and thats why I pointed out three different things that I had wrong when I first made the set up. How about you could "you" be wrong?

"What do you think our "agenda" is? Taking your precious sandbox away?"

You cant take my sand box away, since it's not mine to begine with. Most of the issues posted above have more to do with shortsided singlemindedness and personal agendas that have nothing to do with creatring a good and balanced playing field. If they had anything to do with the later than they would fall into the catagory of the amanded setings this set up has had since inception.

So Slash Just what do you want? I Know what Arlo want(h!ll I can even respect his want's) I know what Jazz want's, heck he asked so nicely I told him what to do with it, just what do you want?
Title: This is getting just a bit too ugly
Post by: Oldman731 on December 12, 2003, 08:10:16 AM: Remember, folks - whether you're in the "my way or the highway" crowd or the "hey, you work for me" bunch - this is a game, a game which in the CT is generally played among friends. I'll bet that most of us would prefer to sacrifice something on the game end and keep the friend part intact. I would. I'm not sure that this conversation is headed that direction.

- oldman
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: skernsk on December 12, 2003, 08:51:22 AM: Quote
Why does he even mess with a PAC set up when time after time we have the same problems?

Well I would expect that it is so as not to ignore a very LARGE and historic theatre of WW2. If we are to one day have a full PAC planeset we need to show interest in it and work with it.

I am not going to read through post after post of people arguing their points. Brady and company put on a new show for us every week - undoubtedly some will not like it.

Pacific events in general are the most challenging to set-up and create because the USN side has so many different planes that outperform, outgun and outbomb the IJN. Sure it is historical to have every bloo plane in the set-up against a few IJN choices but how fun is it??

The last point is that some of you view the CT staff as a group trying to rule Aces High. Some people view the CM group in the same light. To that end I would like to say .. those that feel that way just 'don't get it' and probably never will. For that reason you will have them repeatedly complaining, and attempting to undermine your work.

Because the people complaining don't get their way they feel like they are personally attacked. The great thing about the CT is that the set-up can be adjusted if need be.

So for now 'shut up and fly' and a little advice for a few of you. If you want to make a point and really care about the result perhaps using manners and discussing like an adult might help....
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Tuck on December 12, 2003, 11:08:53 AM: oh...yah! why sure dere! that'll shut 'em up, eh?

:D
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Arlo on December 12, 2003, 12:26:11 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Tuck
oh...yah! why sure dere! that'll shut 'em up, eh?

:D

Hey ... ain't you supposed to be on sabbatical whacking your crotch with a baseball bat this "coming" week anyway? :D
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: skernsk on December 12, 2003, 02:27:20 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Arlo
Hey ... ain't you supposed to be on sabbatical whacking your crotch with a baseball bat this "coming" week anyway? :D

what? :confused: :eek:

ROFL!!
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: scJazz on December 12, 2003, 02:36:56 PM: Quote
Originally posted by brady
[BI know what Jazz want's, heck he asked so nicely I told him what to do with it, just what do you want? [/B]

Brady I got tired of asking nicely when dealing with you. Instead of being nice I tried raw unadulterated math, that didn't work either. I've noted in earlier posts that you either don't know what your talking about, can't remember what you said, or your using the CM position to stroke your ego. You sure as hell aren't listening to anything but the voices in your head.

BTW it takes 2 or 3 JABO units to kill a MA CV not 4.

ooIoo
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: daddog on December 12, 2003, 02:57:05 PM: Quote
I'll bet that most of us would prefer to sacrifice something on the game end and keep the friend part intact. I would. I'm not sure that this conversation is headed that direction.
Friendship is often the sacrificial lamb to pride.

I have often found that members of the community who I have respected in the past (and still do in some ways) must separate civility and difference of opinion. If they don’t agree with you they are no longer able to be civil. Unfortunate, but true.
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Slash27 on December 12, 2003, 03:39:32 PM: Well I would expect that it is so as not to ignore a very LARGE and historic theatre of WW2. If we are to one day have a full PAC planeset we need to show interest in it and work with it.

Oh, I get it now. Maybe we should form a development group for PAC set ups so we can get the most from what have to work with?

I am not going to read through post after post of people arguing their points.

Yeah, why bother. Its easier to make assumptions that anyone who disagrees with a staffer is a whiner with no valid points.

The last point is that some of you view the CT staff as a group trying to rule Aces High. Some people view the CM group in the same light. To that end I would like to say .. those that feel that way just 'don't get it' and probably never will. For that reason you will have them repeatedly complaining, and attempting to undermine your work.

Yes, again assume that "we" (the bad people) are against the whole CT staff and work day and night to undermine their work. This not reading every post works well for you doesnt it?

So for now 'shut up and fly' and a little advice for a few of you. If you want to make a point and really care about the result perhaps using manners and discussing like an adult might help....

So, "F'k off", "go fly the MA", "tuff titties",and "bite me" is the way to approach this then? Thats the adult way? Not what Jazz said, but the total opposite? Ok, got it.:aok
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Slash27 on December 12, 2003, 04:03:28 PM: Bases nead to be taken thats the objective, if a cordanated atack ocures and the fleat get's their they take down the defensies and take the base then so be it.

Or you feel like running up your score while ruining a "cordanated atack" You still playing dumb on that one?

could "you" be wrong?

Yep, more often than I like. But I'll admit it.

You cant take my sand box away, since it's not mine to begine with. Most of the issues posted above have more to do with shortsided singlemindedness and personal agendas that have nothing to do with creatring a good and balanced playing field. If they had anything to do with the later than they would fall into the catagory of the amanded setings this set up has had since inception.

You can say that as much as you want, it wont make it come true.

So Slash Just what do you want? I Know what Arlo want(h!ll I can even respect his want's) I know what Jazz want's, heck he asked so nicely I told him what to do with it, just what do you want?

What? No respect for me? Oh no:( What do I want? Less BS rationalizations for your BS reasons not to include and/or change something. I'd rather you just say "no i wont do it because I dont have to" then your double talking horse****. Whats my "agenda" for this set up? Change the spawn point for CVs or leave the hardness alone. That is over the top isnt it? Oh well, you know me " my way or the highway! no comprimise!"
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Toad on December 12, 2003, 04:37:13 PM: The most favorable factor in getting folks into the CT to play this setup is the simple fact that Big Isles is up in the Main.

That pretty much assures a greater number of players than usual in the CT this week.

BTW, I also think it's long past time for some staff rotation in the CT.

IF all the 1941 US/Japanese planes were available in AH, I was wondering how the current administration would "balance" a Pearl Harbor setup.

Had me chuckling to myself, anyway.
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: skernsk on December 12, 2003, 06:42:56 PM: Wow slash. You are very argumentative about this aren't you. For what it's worth some players like to fly Pac set-ups. I am not a fan of Luftwaffe planes nor that set-up but I don't fly off the handle and demand the team change things for ME.

You are entitled to your opinion .. right/wrong or indifferent. I am not the one about to judge it nor listen to it. So carry on I assume the CT staff will get back to you ....
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Slash27 on December 12, 2003, 08:44:04 PM: I am not a fan of Luftwaffe planes nor that set-up but I don't fly off the handle and demand the team change things for ME.
I've yet to fly off the handle and Im a player, so Im in no position to demand anything. And just so you know PAC set ups are my favorite. I think you are missing that fact.

You are entitled to your opinion .. right/wrong or indifferent. I am not the one about to judge it nor listen to it. So carry on I assume the CT staff will get back to you ....

The whole thing is a sore subject and its probably best not to judge any of us without knowing the full history of this thing. And for the record I do not have a problem with the CT staff, just one staffer. I dont think the guys the anti-Christ, I just think he's wrong in his approach to the matter. I may be too.
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: scJazz on December 12, 2003, 09:31:44 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Slash27
The whole thing is a sore subject and its probably best not to judge any of us without knowing the full history of this thing. And for the record I do not have a problem with the CT staff, just one staffer. I dont think the guys the anti-Christ, I just think he's wrong in his approach to the matter. I may be too.

What Slash said! I like Jester... Fork is OK too... Brady is a completely arrogant, rockheaded, narrowminded, needing a microscope jerk who uses the CT as a way to improve his already low self esteem by wielding the I'm a CM and u aren't club. I've tried reasoning with him politely. I've tried being sarcastic. I've tried being a complete butthead. Nothing gets through to this guy. So you know what...

him the stupid !

He wouldn't know balanced if it walked up and kicked him in the 'nads. Provable since I've shown that all of his arguments have no merit in any realm aside from his head!
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: tzr on December 12, 2003, 10:06:18 PM: scjazz,
He won't put the C-Hog in cuz it has cannons...ONLY Axis can have cannons..... NIK1 vs blue planes.......110s vs P40b....

When was the last time you saw a P38 in a PTO set up???
R.I. Bong did fly in the PTO...didn't he????:eek: :rolleyes:
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: ergRTC on December 13, 2003, 03:15:15 PM: Yeah tzr, he puts it in everyonce in a while. At a rear base.

I really dont think the p38 has anything going for it that the f6f doesnt have in spades.

All this fair and balance shat makes me laugh. There is rarely ever a setup that is fair and balanced, only cms that think they are.

I dont really care. What gets my goat is that *****ing about this setup is much akin to biting the hand that feeds the vf-27. Brady and Jester are the only guys that realiably put ptos out there. Tends to be more like this...

bob,
russia
late eto
bob
finland
bob
finland
russia
mid eto
some whacked 1950s thing
finland
russia
finland
russia
pto, but f4fs vs zeros and ki67s
finland
finland
finland
finland
finland

at least thats what it feels like. Its like everyday is wednesday.
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Squire on December 13, 2003, 07:13:43 PM: Hey! dont forget Finland. Geez Erg. :)
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: Slash27 on December 13, 2003, 08:24:40 PM: What gets my goat is that *****ing about this setup is much akin to biting the hand that feeds the vf-27.

I never liked the taste of bull****:D
Title: Friday's set up........
Post by: daddog on December 15, 2003, 02:49:32 PM: Quote
bob,
russia
late eto
bob
finland
bob
finland
russia
mid eto
some whacked 1950s thing
finland
russia
finland
russia
pto, but f4fs vs zeros and ki67s
finland
finland
finland
finland
finland

LOL

Finland/Russia is my least favorite plane set, but the map is excellent. I know many love it, but it is not my thing. I do tire of Finland and changing it from winter to summer does not help. PAC is my favorite, (with so little to choose from AC it is tough) then western europe, then med and finally the eastern front.