Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: -towd_ on January 18, 2001, 01:47:00 PM
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hello all i have a question and will pose it in as diplomatic a manner as possible.
i was flyin in a spit 5 last night and noticed that i was being out turned by mostly 47s and hogs when about co speed. and not reall fast the 300 mph and below range . i am a old time acm guy and really never hardly fully black out . it seems that alot of guys have figgured out how to time a black out turn so as to lose pursuit. it goes like this, he turns hard enough to black out you follow him and you black out then you have no idea where he is thus losing him . this dosent seem resonable seems like just adding a 4 or 5 sec return of view from total black out would fix it . only mentioning it because it happend like 5 times in 2 or so hours of playing.
any one else see this alot.
that is it.
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I agree, we should have a few seconds recovery time to make things a bit more realistic. It's important to point out though that real fighter pilots blacked themselves out trying to avoid an nme in their 6 an were successfull.
If they turn hard enough to black out then they're bleeding huge e so in turn, u should simply go up, save ur e and then come back down for another pass...rinse, repeat, eventually if they dont make a mistake earlier you'll finsih'em when they run outa alt.
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Yeah Towd, I have spent enough thousand or so hours doing this to get pretty good at estimating where Im going in full black out. Thing is, it doesnt seem to help as much on my end as on yours.
HiTech should consider reducing stick input during high G pulls and pushovers.
Yeager
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Just some form of period of time shaking off the blackout would do wonders.
Maybe use anti stick stir code for that.
It'd really limit the "pull into blackout and lamely lose pursuer" strategy if they were immobilized somewhat after such a move (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.geocities.com/nirfurian/stSanta.jpg)
"I am the light at the end of your sorry little tunnel." - A. Eldricht
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oh no, dont do that.
Toad can fly at 6G and not black out, so noone should black out in AH (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
(AIGF (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))
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From my personal if limited experience:
There is no loss of control while blacked out at the Gs that WWII planes allowed (under 6).
But there is a few seconds (2-3-4? depending on length and severity) delay if completely blacked untill the vision returns.
Much more important is that a pilot would get very tired if yanking on the stick the way we do. He may be able to do it to save his life, but he should not be able to aim well for a while after that.
In our case a guy does a lot of stick-stirring and then reverses and puts a bullet right through teh enemy's forehead from 800 yards. In RL he would say "Barely escaped with my life, hands are shaking, need fresh pants... I am going home..."
Why not model pilot's fatigue?
At higher speeds Bf109 was 40 pounds per G. So to pull measly 3 Gs a pilot had to yank with 120 pounds in a narrow cockpit with bad leverage.
No wonder that a P47 with 8-12 pounds per G and a very wide cockpit could easily outturn 109 at high speeds.
Or rather, a pilot in P47 could outturn a pilot in 109.
miko
[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 01-18-2001).]
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I have noticed that the longer you remain blacked out the longer it takes to recover.
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It's true if in AH you pull a high G turn and hold it takes a longtime to recover from a blackout. A "longtime" only meaning seconds but it's still long enough to make it seem like an eternity when you know a bandit is around.
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Hmm, anyone else play Rainbow 6 or Rogue Spear. You know how you get the targeting reticle expanding when/after you run or get hit? What we need is something like that.
Or maybe blackouts/redouts should use the head-drop featured in pilot wounded (you know when the head drops as you blackout, slowly rises as you regain).
Either that or an intravenous tube thats hooked up to a USB Port and when you pull hard-Gs sucks the blood outta ya (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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And there goes RAM with a typical remark (smilie or no smilie)
Towd just do like crash says and setup a hi yoyo. Or you could shift from lead pursuit to an out of plane (nose high) lag pursuit and wait on'em to bleed off all thier E.
Lag rolls work nicely too, and you can usually decrease the AOT and setup a better shot while they're blacked out.
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I see the "real life" moniker to describe a popular belief.
Blacking out only affects the pilot's visual accuity. Having experienced it, I can assure you that the pilot is in full control of his motor functions. You are fully conscious and aware of your movements and all feelings. You can't see anything once gravity has drained blood and oxygen from the visual centers of the brain. This is usually precedeeded by the loss of color vision (everthing turns gray and white), then tunnel vision (which AH fairly accurately creates) before total black out. The black out itself is more of a dark gray haze when flying in daylight than a black curtain effect. Sounds become a little distant and muted as well. If the intent is to simulate real life, why should we expect or accept an artificial limitation such as reduced control movement? On the other hand...
G-loc, or G induced loss of consciousness occurs in after an extended period or a too-rapid onset of high G's. The pilot passes out completely, losing sense of time, motor functions, and all senses. The body goes limp. This is not a simple "black out." Pull too hard for too long when fast and AH will render this condition. With some other sims, G-loc occurs everytime you exceed a certain value. For instance: fly at a steady 5.9 G's and everthing is fine, fly at 6.0 G's and all control is instantly lost. That is over simplified and inaccurate.
A pilot in AH that can consistantly pull enough G to black out without G-loc'ing has mastered one part of flying this sim. Pilots that try to follow such maneuvers have to pull harder to get enough lead for a guns shot. More G's means a quicker and sometimes unexpected black out. Save your E, as Crash states, and used it against the other guy once all his E is gone from pulling so hard. An alert pilot behind you may be using this once he sees a rapid turn or pitch up.
MiG
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If you guys would work out like Rip and I, you wouldn't even have this problem with blacking out. Physical conditioning is the answer fellas...
(http://heathblair.tripod.com/freaky57.jpg)
Ripsnort
(http://heathblair.tripod.com/freaky63.jpg)
hblair
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heheh hblair these guys seem to be huge ..
ever looked at the usual fighter jock ?
Barrel chest, bulky and .. small! (short neck too mostly)
So kindda like i'm built (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
kindda explains my high G tolerance (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Btw .. IMHO the clearing effect of the grey/blackout should take longer .. but on the other hand it should take a bit longer than it does now on the onset (dunno if that comes across understandable .. )
DW6
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Caveman do you know what does AIGF means?
FYI (For your information (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))
All In Good Fun
:P
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Man, look at the knockers on Ripsnort!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Wab
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Something that is not really mentioned here...
In RL i'd imagine that as the pilot has only lost vision, he has not lost his other senses. With the exception of hearing, something all of us sim pilots NEVER had. We lose our sight (blackout) we have absolutely zero feedback. I think its about time a sim came up with better g-force feedback. A pilot in real life could tell the difference between 2g and 5 without looking at his guages. I'd like to see a graphical representation better able to present we, the sim pilots with better gee feedback. A colour bar with an indicator visible in all views or some such thing. Prior to reaching black out gee levels an experienced fighter pilot could tell gee levels by feel no matter where he is looking.
We sim pilots need something such that we can do the same.
AKskurj
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Originally posted by Vulcan:
Or maybe blackouts/redouts should use the head-drop featured in pilot wounded (you know when the head drops as you blackout, slowly rises as you regain)
That is the best idea I have ever heard about blackouts. It would work too. If you yanked so hard as to go into total blackout, you should have head drop and recovery time.
The other problem in here is how fast you black out. In RL blackout is not instantaneous based on G-load, as it is in AH now. As you hold high Gs your vision starts to go away but it is only after a couple seconds when the oxygen already in your eyes/brain is used up.
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"Wing up, Get kills, Be happy"
Midnight
13th TAS
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when u black out, screen fully black, the controls are no more active and you fly straight.
Simple.
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Heard some roller coasters are now getting about 5 g's. Little girls ride em with no ill affects.
lazs
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Y'know Frenchy, that may have been the way it was modeled in SDOE.
I think I can remember flying behind someone, making them pull hard to evade my lead shot, and watching the airplane straighten out, and thinking, "Ah-ha! Blacked out! Hee-hee!" and then pouncing.
Mk
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Maybe HTC should perk g-suits or higher G tolerance? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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eagl <squealing Pigs> BYA
Oink Oink To War!!!
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Does it really matter since everyone in the game is dealing with the exact same thing?
Whatever the settings or effects, it's the same for everyone.
. (http://www.nick-tucker.com/AH/_graphics/wlfgng.gif) (http://www.nick-tucker.com)
EMAIL assassins@aceshighcs.com
EMAIL wlfgng@aceshighcs.com
[This message has been edited by Wlfgng (edited 01-19-2001).]
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I was about to post on blackouts but I'll add here. I wonder if there has been any testing on different systems as to how and when the software shows blackout because I have seen times when I was at the edge of blackout and the aircraft I am pursueing seems to be able to turn tighter for longer.
I am wondering how this works in the software. A specific G level is associated with a specific radius of turn and speed. That radius and speed determines the aircraft's 3D postion in space and time which must be passed to the server. I am wondering if different system specs are able to do the math at different rates which alters the postion in space that is sent to the server and also when the graphics card displays blackout.
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Sparks,
That blackout calculation is happening on your FE, and would not have anything to do with the server.
The blackout limit is the same for everybody. Generally the difference you are seeing is simply speed. If you are even a bit faster than the other guy, he be able to turn tighter. This can be VERY hard to judge, especially with the effects of net lag and such that we deal with in an online flight sim. Add to that the fact that your theory is only true if the two of you are folliwing the EXACT same flight path, and you can see where the differences are.
Also, as the rest of this thread indicates, during the early parts of blackout, you still have control of the plane in AH. Some pilots will pull hard and endure a few seconds of blackout to get out of your sights. They will lose energy by turning tighter, and they will lose sight of you for a few seconds, so it is a trade off. It's a trade off you would make in real life too if there was a guy shooting at you. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Generally however, here is what I do in this situation. I stop pulling lead, and drop into lag pursuit. This allows me to stay out of blackout, avoid overshooting the other guy, and conserver my energy more than he is. The more G's you pull the more energy you lose to induced drag, so by pulling less, I gain an energy advantage on him. Now I am sitting on his six in lag pursuit with more energy... the perfect position. Once he is done yanking his guts out on the control stick and eases off a bit due to G-loc or rapidly dropping speed, I'll just pull lead and watch 8 x .50 Cal turn his airplane into chaff. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
"A pig is a jolly companion, Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale, Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you, When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover, You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!" -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"
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From Thunderbolt - Robert Johnson:
"The Thunderbolt was diving so fast I had lost all control; a split second after the explosion I flashed through the fireball that had been an enemy airplane. Now began the brutal task of pulling the Jug out of her compressibility dive. Until I reached 15,000 feet the controls remained as rigid as steel imbedded in concrete. I was frightened; the big airplane vibrated terribly, threatening to tear the wings off. About two miles above Germany the controls grabbed the thickening air; I pulled on teh stick with all my strength. The nose lifted, gravity clutched me, squeezed harder, harder! At four thousand feet, level flight, then greyness, swirling mists, darker and darker, and then unconsciousness.
When I came to, the Thunderbolt had her nose pointed at the sky. The engine howled as the heavy fighter flung herself into the blue. I don't know how fast I dove the ship, but the severe pullout bent metal and wrinkled the wingtips."
Sounds like he kept pulling after he couldn't see... but he went out, and if someone had been there, I reckon he would've been a sitting duck.
...and in any case, its damn exciting!
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Good post Kratzer. Nothing wrong with it, works fine, same for everyone, use it to your advantage if you can, saved my can a few times....did I leave anything out?
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The effects ya'll mentionin' is exactly what happens to me when my JOHNSON gets hard, typically occurs when I'm playin' with my joystick, pullin' "g's" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/eek.gif)
Is it just me, or does this look like he's crappin his pants? (http://heathblair.tripod.com/freaky57.jpg)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) OH MY!
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"ASSASSINS have BIGGER Joysticks!"
<< MILENKO >> (http://pages.hotbot.com/games/davekirk/milenko.html)
ACES HIGH ASSASSINS Website (http://www.cybrtyme.com/personal/hblair/mainpage.htm)
WB/AH ASSASSINS Website (http://members.xoom.com/rowgue/assassins.html)
[This message has been edited by milnko (edited 01-20-2001).]
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I just love those planes flying something like 400mph and then with full trims up pull the stick so that plane suddenly is coming right through you..
of course they will be blackout for while after such pull and lose some E, but they'll actually dont lose that much E if they do such quick turn, because you have to turn after them and there youll lose your E (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
specially if the guy has just flown past you into another direction and accerlates already when youre still turning
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yes fish this is the dweeb move im talkin about a game the game move and very common today not to mention totaly unrealistic . they dont seem to lose much e at all in what must be a 20 g turn alot. seems like it would be easy to stop .
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Leph
That blackout calculation is happening on your FE, and would not have anything to do with the server.
Thats what I mean - the math about your turn etc is done on your own PC which must then pass the info about your position in 3d space to the server (I guess) so the info the server sees for each a/c comes from different spec PC's. My question is, when you're dealing with the relative positions of two objects in close proximity with rapidily changing dynamics, does the relative speed of the two pilots PC's cause a difference in the reliabilty of the info being sent to the server?? i.e. is a slower PC being compensated for in the software by allowing less calculations to be done and averaging?
Sparks
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Originally posted by -towd_:
yes fish this is the dweeb move im talkin about a game the game move and very common today not to mention totaly unrealistic . they dont seem to lose much e at all in what must be a 20 g turn alot. seems like it would be easy to stop .
I would guess that WW2 planes would get damaged from even over 9g turns, and those i think has way more G's..
Even spitfire might damage its wings in +6 G turn (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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I'm too am getting pretty ticked off at the blackout functionality. I've been a turn-fighter since way back and have lots of stick time in Warbirds. It seems in AH whenever I attempt to turn fight I'm always on the verge of blacking out and lose sight of the enemy. I'm not pulling hard on the stick and turning only at moderate speeds (i.e. 250-300 mph). So, I'm either nearly blacking out or nearly stalling at 200 mph!!! It seems like I'm always getting out turned even though I'm in the better turning aircraft. Because of the black out, I'm forced to make wider sweeping turns and that just doesn't cut it. So... that only leaves BnZ tactics left for me. Not my favorite A2A tactic. I think they need to lighten up on the black out speeds. I'm seeing most pilots do head-on passes and I think it's because of this situation.
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Pft whatll they think of next...anything to hold the target still while they blast it with there turbolasers....you can be damned sure if you where on my 6 in RL with alot more speed I would pull a high G turn almost blacking out then reverse and put one up yer arse as you buzzed by. As far as the blackout goes leave it,its fine.
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Originally posted by SpitLead:
Because of the black out, I'm forced to make wider sweeping turns and that just doesn't cut it. So... that only leaves BnZ tactics left for me. Not my favorite A2A tactic. I think they need to lighten up on the black out speeds.
First mistake is not using throttle control. Without going into too much detail (which should be kept in the Training folder) sounds like you are trying to turn while too fast. Your enemy (who is probably slower or using E Fiting tactics) is turning inside your turn circle. This isnt a blackout problem, its a tactics problem.
-Ding
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Spitlead,
I'm from WBs too and believe me, you'll get used to blackouts here eventually. I found I had to be gentler on the stick, no constant hard pulls. Also, like somebody else suggested, you really have to be aware of your speed..if you're turning at 300 mph, you won't be able to pull very hard. Most people learn to pull hard and black out for short bursts when they need it.
bowser
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I think I have the tactics down (I've done this before). Maybe I'm just using my Warbirds experience as a barometer but AH is much more sensitive to blackouts than Warbirds (IMHO). I've been trying to be very aware of my speed and that's helped some, but when I'm nearly stalling at 200 MPH and blacking out between 250-300 MPH that doesn't leave me much room. I agree we need to have blackouts, just that the tolerance levels need to be a bit higher. I think Bowser is probably right, this won't get changed and this is something I'll just have to get used to. Ok, I'll get off my soapbox now :-)
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Thanks Vulcan!
Have you ever tried cleaning up a drink that you've sprayed over your entire monitor and speakers. Very messy.
I guess I shouldn't have been drinking while reading these replies.
I was ok until I hit your comment.
Quote:
"Either that or an intravenous tube thats hooked up to a USB Port and when you pull hard-Gs sucks the blood outta ya"
Pokie
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Has anyone bothered to look at the G-meter when in tunnel vision?
I suggest you do so before asking for upped tolerences (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
You can find the blackout G number by centering the view on the meter.
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(http://bigdweeb.homestead.com/files/sig.jpg)
33rd FW www.33rd.org (http://www.33rd.org)
[This message has been edited by Jigster (edited 01-24-2001).]
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6+ g's for extended periods of time do weird things with yer blood flow (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
If anything, they should up the recovery time of blackouts.
Some of my more memorable flights have involved me, with a spikey stick, outdiving a pursuing enemy, maneuvering on the verge of bblackout, getting a massive spike and going into blackout....
And not getting out of it. letting go of stick...20k to start with....coming out...3k..UGH.
Very amusing (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Of course, auto pilot cheato is not used by Real Men(tm) to get out of such situations.
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://us.st5.yimg.com/store4.yimg.com/I/demotivators_1619_4916770)
"I don't necessarily agree with everything I think." - A. Eldritch
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Sparks,
The short answer is no. If that was the case the physics of the flight model would change on different speed PCs, and the end result would be rather obvious. The only real issue is the relative latency of the connections. The more latency in the connection, the more the difference in time between when he does something and when you see it. However, the delay is normally pretty constant, so the other guy follows the laws of physics and the flight model, you just see the results a half second later.
The only thing that throws a wrench into the works is packet loss or a widly varying latency. You'll know it when this happens, because the enemy plane will obviously warp. Not much can be done about that, it's the nature of the beast, however the poor fellow with the bad connect should be seeing everybody warp, so he'll normally have to correct the problem or be unable to shoot anything. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
"A pig is a jolly companion, Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale, Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you, When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover, You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!" -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"