Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: StSanta on January 19, 2001, 05:15:00 PM
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Another thread got me thinking a bit. Jochen brought up a valid point when I was jokingly referring to 9./JG 54 members as the elite, as being the best überhumans we can be.
Of course this has some negative connotations and refers (in)directly to the HolocaustA tasteless joke but then again I am not known for having good taste.
At any rate; how can one justify flying for the LW; a branch of the German armed forces that with its brutal effiency helped the conquest of several nations and indirectly assisted in the Holocaust? Can one justify it at all?
I can understand the bad taste most quite rightfully get when they hear the word Luftwaffe - it sounds like a synonym to "nazi" even though it is not - the German air force today is still known as the Luftwaffe. So how does one justify flying for these pirates of the sky?
Separating the armed force from the political ideology is step one. Initially, the Wehrmacht was just the same as the US armed forces are today - a non political state run institution put in place to do the biddings of its political masters. Much like when the American politicians order American pilots to enforce no fly zones, the German politicians ordered the LW to strike various targets. Later in the war, the Wehrmacht became politized - mostly with the introduction of the Waffen SS. As far as I know, there were no Waffen SS jagdgeschwaders.
Step two is looking at the machines - I dare say that most playing AH are a rare breed with a fascination for prop planes and personal favourite aircraft. how does one pick a favourite aircraft? For me, it is not a logical choice - I choose instinctively. Focke-Wulfs are appealing because of their shark like appareance, neatly combining beatuy with a sense of raw power. 109's are ugly but radiate a brutality that overcomes the aestethical and makes ya either love or hate them.
Thirdly, there are the men of the LW - Galland, Marseilles, "Bubi" Hartmann. Many of which are the epithomy of what we see as fighter aces - Galland with his film star looks, own the world attitude and great skills, Hartmann with his unbelievable record. Despite the regime they worked for, it is hard not to admire their achievements. Isolated from the political background, it's really something.
There also is the Bad Guy Appeal - in the Star Wars universe, I always side with Darth Vader and his gang. Tie fighters are way sexier than X-Wings. There are so many heroes out there that being an anti hero is very rewarding. Working for the dark side, being Satan compatriot - I don't know why, but one word describes it for me - "neato". If you cannot be loved and admired, make sure you're hated and feared.
The initial effectiveness of the LW and all the innovations it brought to the field of aviation is another thing.
Lastly, there is the underdog appeal. Late in the war, always outnumbered, *defending the civilian population from the murderous bombs of the Brits and (to a much lesser extent) the Americans. Flying planes that are good but not quite as good as the allied counterparts.
But, let's be honest. Just the slightest thought about the Holocaust, the killing of Russians and everything and all of these reasons are wiped out.
So what do we do? We call ourselves warriors, instruments to be used by politicians, servants of the state. We will do what we're told as long as the order is not illegal. i have yet to hear about an instance where LW units were used to exterminate Jews for instance.
The above reasons is why I fly LW - I do not fly it because I'm a racist or a nazi. I find those things utterly disgusting. Yet it is important to remember that not all LW pilots were nazi's. It's my personal belief that anyone hearing about or witnessing the results of the British bomb raids on civilian populations would be enraged and, if capable, get up into a plane to try to stop it.
But, I am a LW pilot. As such, i try to live up to the stereotypes. My hair is blonde, cut very short. I have a bottle of schnaps in my pocket and I fight wearing a monocle. My arrogance is only rivalled by my extreme views that LW pilots are, in every way, superior to their allied counterparts. I'm elitist and proud of it, and have a "Von" between my surname and my last name.
I am Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen, old school WWI style aviator, fighting for the *LW*, not for the nazi's. I'm too advanced and civilized to kick bellybutton and take names, so I "eliminate schweinhunde und yell spheetfeure!" instead.
Now, US sons of peasants, cow milkers and Brit scum of the earth, go buy boots; soon I am airbone and you need something to shake in.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.geocities.com/nirfurian/stSanta.jpg)
"I am the light at the end of your sorry little tunnel." - A. Eldricht
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Dresden is perhaps the most obvious point. When looking at WWII it'd be too easy to take sides and say 'these guys were evil', I think everyone here's matured beyond that. Badging every Luftwaffe pilot as evil and a disgrace would be missing the point to say the least. Can't say I've ever been keen on the idea of swastikas in games, for this very reason - even if it's historical it's not what I want to be thinking about when I see friends flying luftwaffe a/c.
Anyway, I've heard of the bad guy appeal of flying for the LW. What can I say, I'm a good guy through and through (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Underdog appeal? Bah; been there done that. I don't care about the heroes with huge lists of kills; it's every poor sap at low level in his Mosquito, Beaufighter or Typhoon I admire. Now it's time to push the blighters back, rocket their Panzers to hell, and back in time for tea and medals (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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"Diplomacy.. the art of saying 'nice doggie!' while you look for a rock."
Very Diplomatic post Santa. I take it your 'rock' (joystick) still ain't there?? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
The allies were responsible for more than a few reprehensible actions on the civilian populations of europe during the war.. politics and vengance aside; we do not have bloodless hands either.
However a larger truth remains even now, more than 50 years later; that the images of evil inspired by the nazi regime stir a bitter and angry response from members of certain ethnic and religious groups... I doubt you'll find many Jewish folks flying LW iorn in this sim, as an example.
Be that as it may.... as long as we are 'wargaming' in a WWII flight simulator, it stands to reason there will be a LW contingient. Sadly; some folks will be unable to seperate the 'clean' war from the dirty one... the airwar, per se; that of fighter vs fighter in the skies over europe was 'clean' in retrospect compared to the atrocities committed in the slave camps.
Still; when one decides to chose up sides, somewhere in the back our minds comes the question... "What ideology do I wish to support?" Does the answer to that question weigh more on your mind than the type of plane you fly?? Personal questions; yes. Answer: Insignificant across the span of history; from then to now, I think.
I read somewhere that the average LW pilot was concerned with survival; his, his family's in the cities under night attack; their survival in the factories under attack during the day. No time fer political debate in a cockpit, is there?
There was no safe place in Germany by 1944.. anywhere. So; the LW pilot, oblivious to the evil atrocities being committed by his countrymen in SS uniforms; disgusted with and distrustful of his senior leadership, all but unaware of the basic facts that his plane was built by slaves; his ammo was manufactured by slaves; his uniform tailored by slaves... UNAWARE that the very fabric of his life was a tapestry of lies and deciet, he climbed into his warbird day after day and went about the missions he was given.. "PROTECT THE FATHERLAND."
Not till it was over did most come to realise what they had nearly.. so very nearly wrought was nothing less than an abominiation upon humanity itself.
No; I do not hate the LW.. honorable men througout history have before be suborned to evil taskmasters. Rather; I pity them.. poor sods. How else can we view them? ... They were damned in victory or defeat.
So; next time you see some guy in a 190 or 109.. don't think "NAZI!!" Think "CHUMP"
<S!>
Hang
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Post-1942, German soldiers in World War II no longer fought for the Fatherland or The Third Reich--they fought against fear and because they HAD to. If you didn't fight then you were assigned to a penal battalion or shot on the spot, this is why the German army was the most elite army in the world man-for-man, severe discapline and punishment.
For the Luftwaffe it was protecting their comrades on the ground who they knew had the worst time.
I fly LW because I think those aircraft are the most beautifull in the game and in real life, they all were amazing aircraft and in sims are a challenge to fly--I cannot say the same for other aircraft except for perhaps the P38.
And in these discussions please do not forget Stalin and what things the Red Army and NKVD did.
P.S. Hartmann was waay cooler and secksier than Galland! ;p Galland was a punk that had to fly jets, Hartmann was offered this opportunity to join JG 7 but he decided to stay with the 109 on the Eastern front.
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Nath_____
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.angelfire.com/nt/regoch/sig.gif)
A captured Bolshevik pilot once stated, "In battle, the fighters with the green hearts are generally in the minority. But when they're there, things realy heat up. They're all aces!"
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 01-19-2001).]
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You guys don't need to justify anything. It's a game. As a Spitfire pilot, I'm glad we have people flying 109s and 190s for me to shoot down. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
<S>
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(http://www.raf303.org/308/308banner.gif) (http://www.raf303.org/308)
FunkedUp, Officer Commanding, 308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF (http://www.raf303.org/308)
Northolt Wing (1st Polish Fighter Wing) (http://www.raf303.org/northolt)
"We hadn't wanted this bloody awful war that the Huns seemed to think so glorious. We had been forced to fight. And now that we are fighting, we thought, we'll teach you rotten Huns how to fight. We'll shoot your pissy little fighters out of the sky, we'll rip your dirty great bombers to shreds, we'll make you wish to Christ you'd never heard of the aeroplane!"
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 01-19-2001).]
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Luftwaffe planes are so fun when those are usually only skill involved planes in flight sims (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I like tough to fight in planes.. (I want P-40! I liked it so much in WB and I got an invitation to Flying Tigers squadron (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif))
I get bored in a game that has no challenge.. thats why I usually end up into LW planes, which could be equally modelled with their allied counterparts (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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I choose LW bexcuause they happen to be he planes i like the look of and i like the german soldier stereotype of heel clicking big heads (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Ive always liked the german equipment etc since i was a kid and didnt know the true nature of WW2.Now ive read extensively about it and the holocaust horrifies me.Lets not forget what was done to the polish people russians english french etc.
But this is a simulation and a game and i come here to fly planes.politics just doesnt come into it.I look at the equiptment and choose for looks etc and i just happen to like the german stuff.This was decided in my childhood not on some political belief (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
hell i liked shermans tigers panthers M3 lees
hated russian stuff (ugly) liked american jeeps,japanese zeros and british matilda trucks! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
does this mean im a democratic-nazi-freedom-loving-anti-communist-american-pie-eating-kamakazi-tea drinker?
wow thats me! we could be onto something here! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
hazed
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Ah, for Pete's sake.
Its just a game. There are no politics here.
Hans.
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dammit i just wanna fly......... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
plz send grun a decent computer (read: operating)
oh yea i like 109 cuz i think its the most elegant lookin plane, spit cant hold a candle to 109F/G2 in simple purity of line plus LW pilots seem more interesting than most of the allied guys, tho i really cant say why
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It's your $30 U.S. dollars.....You don't have to justify anything.
3 days ago I bought a FW190 model...What does that mean to me...hey, cool airplane...that's it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Originally posted by Hangtime:
[B
So; next time you see some guy in a 190 or 109.. don't think "NAZI!!" Think "CHUMP"
<S!>
Hang
[/B]
LOL Hang Chumps in chutes with Lederhosen on now that's funny
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"Bubi" flew for the "Luftwaffe" after the war (and many years in Russian camps). So, I don't think that "LW" has the same connotation you imply. Now, if you start waving the nazi symbol, well...
You fly LW steel so that my men, in their American Steel (and aluminum) P-51's, have something to shoot down! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Voss 13th T.A.S.
[This message has been edited by Voss (edited 01-20-2001).]
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Santa, I believe Most of the poeple here, will already know that (LW & Nazi) have nothing to do here. Poeple who are in LW Squads are in LW squad...bacause they like LW planes...
There will of course be schmucks that overcome this and other schmucks that won't understand it...
So, I ask you, who cares about schmucks ? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Saw
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The Schmucks?? Why; they're in line with the Chumps. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Saw et all
It comes a time when the insinuations just get to you. And there are times when there are no insinuations but direct accusations, and that from fellow LW pilots.
So I explain myself. After I've done that, if they're incapable of understanding, the problem truly is theirs, not mine (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.geocities.com/nirfurian/stSanta.jpg)
"I am the light at the end of your sorry little tunnel." - A. Eldricht
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st... I actually like your attitude. Most of the pansies that fly the boring "dreary side" trash are far too sensitive and PC... I mean really.... Are you big bad black hatted nazi's or... are you just wife beating , crossdressing sissy? I am sick of all this "dark side" and "bad guys" and bluff and bluster one moment and then .... "please don't hurt my feelings cause I'm soooo sensitive" crap the next. Sheesh... I'm allways afraid the bad guys are gonna cry!
I was a bad guy... I say...If your gonna be one be a good one.
lazs
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You know, this touches on something that I have been thinking about lately. I don't know how may of you have seen Day of Defeat (http://www.dayofdefeatmod.com/), but I got involved with that to do a website for their campaign, and have been playing the game off and on for the past week. So I'll get to the point already.
The attitude of the average player in there regarding German soldiers and the Nazis is absolutely astounding to me. I am used to the players in AH - who are by and large older, interested in history, better informed, etc. I had either forgotten or never full realized the ignorance and tolerance that a great number of people have about the second world war, and the activities (activities?) of the nazis. Most know only that which they saw in Saving Private Ryan (they all call P51s 'tank busters'), and foster the idea that all Germans were nazis.
There are a LOT of players of that game, average age I would put at 16, who have in-game names like 'Hitler' or 'Jew Hater'... If you ask them WHY they would play with such a name, they almost invariably reply "Because, I'm playing a Nazi!" The concept that the average German soldier was not a nazi, and was there because he was conscripted, or 'doing his duty' to his country, and therefore had much, much more in common with the GI in the other trench than with Hitler is almost unthinkable to them... they can't put the two together.
The first thing that is mildly disturbing is the lack of knowledge of events that shaped the entire century.
The second is this casualness and intrigue there seems to be (developed from point one) with playing at being a nazi. With some very, very rare exceptions, any LW players in this and other flight games I've played have gone to enormous lengths to ensure it well known that they are NOT representing the nazis, but rather understand the sacrifice and bravery of the average serviceman on both sides. I guess I'm spoiled into thinking that the average intelligence in the world is reflected in AH.
Kudos to you guys, I guess... I'm not sure what point I'm making... except that I found that disturbing.
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Kratzer
Geschwader Kommodore
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com/)
(http://www.luftjagerkorps.com/images/logo.gif)
[This message has been edited by Kratzer (edited 01-20-2001).]
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I fly planes I like, and somethimes fly planes just for a change. Some of these planes have numbers like 109, 190 and 88 attached to them.
Fury
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AH is a game -- fly whatever you want and do not feel blame.
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I thought it was because StSanta thinks he looks snappy in those high leather boots! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Cobra
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I am an allied pilot but for just one reason -- the P-38L. I am VERY sure that if the P38 would have been built by the LW these guys would love it. Its a good plane at everything but the best at NOTHING. Its a beautiful and strange ride; similar to LW iron that way.
As for other allied planes, I dont like many. I like the look of the Corsair but its so overused, I fly it only when I need to from carriers.
As for the LW - NAZI discussion: You can have any ideals and beliefs, and you wont be hunted and shot down. We are not nazis, you get to fly LW planes if you like; I personally dont care.
But I know what you mean StSanta: I am a #1 fan of Adolph Galland, that guy is like a movie character, its hard to think someone like him did existed.
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Fat DRUNK Bastards.
Nothing feels sweeter than facing a powerful enemy 1 on 1, the battle is tough, but you emerge victorious. As he types <S>!!! on channel one, you open fire on his chute.
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How does one justify flying for a country who started a war based on world domination and Lost!!!
Sorry.. just dont care!!
BTW i am in Puerto Vallarta, Mexico and still trying to figure out this damn keyboard. 3 functions assigned to 1 key is a bit confusing.
Ill be up flying in one more week, back on the Jan 27..
Dog out...
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Animal, I wouldnt (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
can't see much out of its cockpit and what you can see through, you have wings and engines blocking that view..
I prefer seeing outside good
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Are there still "Keyboard shrinking" tribes in Mexico ?
Saw
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So wardog, I take it that if AH ever models Vietnam era aircraft you will NOT be flying US iron? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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How do you fly for the Luftwaffe? Everyone I've seen in AH flies for the Rooks, Bish, or Nits.
But speaking seriously, if you want to identify yourself with Luftwaffe pilots by flying only German planes and adopting LW heritage for your squad, then good for you. Many of them were very skilled, honorable, and brave men who deserve to be remembered well. I see no need for you to explain yourself.
Just remember two things, though. First, don't slide into the trap of moral equivalency while trying to explain your affinity for the LW. Yes, all sides did bad things, but they were not equally wrong. The Allies (at least the western ones) did some bad things in the pursuit of a greater good. The Axis did many bad things in the pursuit of an evil agenda. There is a big difference.
Second, remember that there are idiots out there who think the Nazis were cool. Neo-nazis are a problem in Germany, the US, and I presume Danmark as well. Don't play into their hands while arguing your points.
I can relate to your sentiments. I am from the southern US, and I admire the southern military heritage of the US Civil War. Robert E Lee and Stonewall Jackson were brilliant leaders, and the individual confederate soldier fought as bravely and well as any soldier in history. But I never forget that they fought to preserve the evil of slavery, and so the confederate cause will always be offensive to many people, especially African Americans. So I don't wave my admiration in other's faces, but indulge it privately.
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Cute, Jekyll. I suppose if they model the ground war in Vietnam, he won't be able to fight with the RAR then, eh? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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this is why the German army was the most elite army in the world man-for-man, severe discapline and punishment.
Yes, they had iron discipline, but that is not what made them so good. They were so effective because they were extremely well-led at all levels from squad to Field Army. They also were the beneficiaries of a military philosophy known today as auftragstaktik, kept alive through generations of prussian soldiers, that recognized the value of initiative in battle. Finally, they carefully built a military system that paid attention to detail in all things and got most of them right. They also had a 5-year head start on the Allies in building this system.
Bottom line from a military professional (me): severe discipline can make a man fight, but it won't make him fight well.
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Damn Jekyll.. last I checked, it was Australian Bacon we saved in WWII.. and when we got involved in Vietnam, I seem to recall your boys were already there. Something about a 'domino theory', with the security of your nation very high on the list of reasons for us to stick a toe in.
Oh well. live and learn.. had no idea the Aussies regard us as nazi-type slave nation-state creators.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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With me, I don't hide what I think. If I were to think the LW planes are good looking suckers and that the men flying them skilled pilots, I'll hold that opinion, publicly and privately.
It might disturb some people's sensitivities, but I'll be damned if I was put on this planet to please everyone (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Besides, those leather boots and the monocles...classy.
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://us.st5.yimg.com/store4.yimg.com/I/demotivators_1619_4916770)
"I am the light at the end of your sorry little tunnel." - A. Eldricht
[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 01-20-2001).]
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Wardog,
How do you like it down there? I was down there a year ago for new years. I posted to Combatsim's EAW forum from down there. The keyboards ARE different. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
StSanta,
The only thing I can't understand is guys who'll ONLY fly Luftwaffe aircraft. I prefer flying British and Japanese aircraft, but I still fly German, American, Russian and Italian aircraft once in a while.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Sisu
-Karnak
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54ed, ever hear about what Gross Deutscheland Division trainees had to go through? That's discipline.
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Okay. Seriously.
Have you gotten any yet, WD? Ah, who am I kidding. You're a fighter jock on leave! Of course you have! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
But, on with the thread... I did say serious?
I have called you LW guys nazi's myself! I never meant anything by it. Hate makes people stupid and you get stupid when I call you nazi's. I like that. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Unfortunately, I find that some of your friends fly U.S. hardware.
Now that you are on to that tactic (nazi bullhorn), I'll change it.
Kratzer, I know what you mean. I've been to Germany. Now, here in Arkansas, people ask me how I liked being in Nazi-land. Not everyone's like that, though. The division of intellect can be a wide bridge! To kids though, it is just a matter of choosing sides, to a point. Makes you wonder what they'll be like after ten years of playing nazi. Some of us have been flying online that long!
Voss 13th T.A.S.
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Some newbie logged in a couple of days ago and asked why was I flying a Nazi plane I replied do you see the plane somehwere where it says <<LOOK THIS IS A NAZI PLANE>> he replied no. I said there's your answer. He wouldn't let it go. I just squelched him.
Regardless of whatever reason you have, certainly political wouldn't be a viable option, you won't redeem yourself because your flying that specific plane or you believe in any Ideology . just fly the damned plane and shoot allied scum down with superior skill(well not always but hey we try).
In fact it was Animal who got me interested in LW iron he used to fly(back in beta/post beta) 109s and Fw all the time and he taught me the basics of BNZ ACM then later I polished it when people like Hristo Nath ,and Fishu came along who made me fly smarter less than agressive and refined my flying.
Whichever your political POV a flight sim ,or game is not somewhere to express your ideology and it won't reflect anything ,just fly and let it go. If it offends someone good riddance I didn't do it.
good night!
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Glasses---I may have 4 eyes ,but you only have one wing.
(http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/glasses.htm)
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Bottom line from a military professional (me): severe discipline can make a man fight, but it won't make him fight well.
Severe discipline is the reason why Japanese soldiers routinely raped women in territories they captured. The soldiers were routinely beaten in training by superiors and were expected to be brutal in the field. In Manchuria, they used Chinese peasants for live bayonet practise. There was nothing out of the ordinary in this. If the Allies had been trained in the same conditions, they would have been exactly the same.
Severe discipline is not necessarily a great military ideal.
In reply to the topic under discussion, LW planes were designed to further the Nazi cause, flown to further the Nazi cause (or defend it in the latter stages of the war). There is no way you can get away from that fact.
Flying LW really has nothing to do with Nazi ideals, but don't deny the real motivations behind the design and use of the LW planes.
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Santa i like you .. but why don't you just shutup and fly ?
(gawd that Stick can't take THAT long to deliver....)
DW6
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Originally posted by Ozark:
It's your $30 U.S. dollars.....You don't have to justify anything.
3 days ago I bought a FW190 model...What does that mean to me...hey, cool airplane...that's it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Ditto. Except mine was a Bf109F4. I hope to collect all of the planes of WWII. What this game is to me is being a little kid and grabbing that model plane that had the pretty colors or the cool shape and racing around the front yard with it making airplane noises. My neighbors would have me put in a straight jacket if I did that so I do it on here. If you listen real close on RW you'll hear me in the background yelling roooooooooom roooooooooooooom atatatatat roooooooooom! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by Dowding:
If the Allies had been trained in the same conditions, they would have been exactly the same.
Severe discipline is not necessarily a great military ideal.
That was one of the reasons Hitler was convinced that the Allied invasion would fail - he thought the fat, undisciplined sons of democracy could never stand up to the disciplined, hardened german soldier. Early German victories convinced him of this.
As for knowing that the hardware was made for the furthering of the nazi empire... I think that is exactly where the line is drawn between most players here, and the people I was mentioning earlier. To them, they are all evil nazis - to us, we see the evil nazis using their populace as tools of their meglomania... big difference, wouldn't you say?
Interesting thread.
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...we see the evil nazis using their populace as tools of their meglomania...
It sounds like you are trying to make the Nazis out to be a powerful minority exercising their will over a dissenting population. This really flies in the face of the election results in the thirties; the National Socialist Workers' Party increased its votes vote by over 800 per cent (nearly 6.5 million), going from the ninth largest party in the Reichstag to second.
People were desperate to join the party in the thirties, but were desperate to dis-associate themselves from it in the late forties.
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If the Allies had been trained in the same conditions, they would have been exactly the same.
I don't know that I fully agree with you here, though I understand your point. It wasn't just the brutality of training that made German and Japanese soldiers brutal to civilians. It was the underlying ideology, which preached racial superiority. Both the Nazis and the Japanese believed their opponents to be racially inferior subhuman species. Once you dehumanize your opponent, it's easy to be cruel and beastly to civilians.
Of course someone will point out that the Allies had their share of dehumanizing propaganda, and this is true. But the Allies did not make ethnic dominance the very purpose of their political system. The German and Japanese soldiers were only taking their cue from the ideology of the nation that sent them to war.
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Originally posted by Kratzer:
That was one of the reasons Hitler was convinced that the Allied invasion would fail - he thought the fat, undisciplined sons of democracy could never stand up to the disciplined, hardened German soldier. Early German victories convinced him of this.
That's ironic since the only reason the Allies won the war was because Hitler was in charge and had a fanatical ego which lacked discipline. Winston knew this and being one of the most brilliant minds of WWII managed to sway critical events in the BOB because of Adolf's posturing. Lets face it in the ground war the Germans were better equip and trained better. The German command structure up to the Divisional level ran circles around the Allies. Their downfall was above the Divisional command. Can you imagine Generals to scared to call their Chief Commanding Officer to release Panzer Divisions because he might be sleeping, while 5000 ships lay off of French coast etc.
This elitist "we are the master race" dick swinging soap box ranting blows, throw us all off a 10 story building we all paint the same picture on the pavement below although Fatty would be regarded as an impressionistic sorry dude it slipped out.
War is the most hideous destructive instinct we Humans posses but if it wasn't we would be in cages with chimpanzees taking photos of us to show their relatives back in Jersey. But hell it sure is fun to simulate and fascinates me.
What I am really trying to say is that Santa is a lederhosen wearing gurly man how can one debate the matter further from the above facts stated.
Harvest Moon (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Duck, I spend my days just trying to get the smallest pieces of AH into my puter - in this case that consists of logging on nd watching ch1 and posting (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
So expect me to hit 3000 posts within the week (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://us.st5.yimg.com/store4.yimg.com/I/demotivators_1619_4916770)
"I am the light at the end of your sorry little tunnel." - A. Eldricht
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When I was 8 I was making a collection of a series called "History of the Aviation". One part was sold each week up to 100. (Historia de la aviacion, in spanish).
Happened that in the 30th and 31th parts I found about a plane I had never seen before (not strange, I was only EIGHT! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)). That plane was beautiful. I simply loved its looks. The plane was a Fw190A.
Later, when I first saw the "black sheep" series on TV I have to admit that the Corsair impressed me for its looks. Its the second plane I most like (far second after the 190, tho). The 109 is the third.
Why do I fly Fw190s almost exclusively?. Because I've loved them for 15 years. Nothing to do with nazis, socialists, democrats or idiots. I dont fly a doctrine, I FLY A PLANE!
Letting that aside, yes, I too admire most of the German aces in WWII. I admire some who were clearly anti-nazi (Stiegler, what a man!), and others who were nacionalsocialist pigs, but hell of pilots (Rudel...more than 500 tanks, thousands of vehicles, AND A BATTLESHIP!).
I can hate a pilot's political views, but at the same time admire his skills as pilots and fighting men.
I am sorry for those who are so blinded that they can't.
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I can hate a pilot's political views, but at the same time admire his skills as pilots and fighting men.
I am sorry for those who are so blinded that they can't.
Yeah, like I hate Hitler's political views, but at the same time admire his skills at trimming his moustache and shouting loudly.
RAM, it's a question of priority - you put pilot skill above hate-filled ideology, whereas I see it the other way around.
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this is how i justify it, I LIKE BIG GUNS, and i like clibing fast and diving fast, and sometimes, people forget that this is just a game so whats the big deal, also like NATH said i think they look cool. i fly g2 g10 and ju 88, i guess its all on how someone flys, like the f4, if ya put it in a stall odds are you aint pullin out just becuase of its c/g, u all understand what im tryin to say, that is my justification
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(http://www.user.shentel.net/vonz/jato.JPG)
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qoute Hangtime :"and when we got involved in Vietnam, I seem to recall your boys were already there. "
Your recollection is deficient this time Hang.
And the U.S didn't 'save Australian Bacon' ... we paid our own way and always will. Australian families have loved ones in war cemeteries in all parts of the world ... however your sentiment seem to be popular in the States ... IMO a good way to lose friends.
".... nazi-type slave nation-state creators"
Nope ... I don't think Australians in general think this about the U.S, certainly not me. I don't think Jekyll meant it that way either.
Regards
Yosus
[This message has been edited by Yosus (edited 01-21-2001).]
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I fly LW iron (65% of the time) becuse I belong to a LW Squadron. Wow! That was easy!
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Originally posted by Dowding:
It sounds like you are trying to make the Nazis out to be a powerful minority exercising their will over a dissenting population. This really flies in the face of the election results in the thirties; the National Socialist Workers' Party increased its votes vote by over 800 per cent (nearly 6.5 million), going from the ninth largest party in the Reichstag to second.
People were desperate to join the party in the thirties, but were desperate to dis-associate themselves from it in the late forties.
It is not that simple though. Yes, National Socialism was very popular in the thirties - while the rest of the world was in the depths of the depression, Germany prospered (by and large through military re-organization and equipping). Hitler was providing a sense of national pride and power that had been stripped from Germany after the first world war. All of these things and more steeled the country in purpose, and to the average citizen was, of course, pretty appealing. It made some of the obvious things easier to excuse, and some of the less obvious things easier to overlook. We can't demonize the entire German population and make them "Nazis" in the sense of the word that is being discussed here - violently anti-semetic, power hungry megalomaniacs. The point being, the average person is found in any country, and is pretty similar to the average person found in any other country, and dedication to their country should not be construed as support of mass genocide.