Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Grape on May 11, 2009, 01:52:20 PM
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Top German Aces Kills Comments Medal Unit East West Plane
Erich Hartmann :O 352 First kill Nov. 1942 KCOSD JG 52 352 - Bf 109
Gerhard Barkhorn 301 120 sorties w/o a kill KCOS JG 52, 6, JV 44 301 - Bf 109
Günther Rall 275 two long injury layoffs KCOS JG 52, 11, 300 272 3 Bf 109
Otto Kittel 267 583 sorties, KIA Feb '45 KCOS JG 54 267 - Fw 190
Walter Nowotny 258 Austrian, KIA Nov '44 KCOSD JG 54, Kdo. Nov. 255 3 Fw 190
Wilhelm Batz 237 - KCOS JG 52 232 5 Bf 109
Knights Cross (KC) with Oak Leaves (O), Swords (S), and Diamonds (D). More about WW2 German medals here.
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I read that when Erich Hartmann was to receive his diamonds, Hitler's security ordered him to remove his side arm. He told them something to the extent of "If Hitler can't trust his own officers on the front line then he can stick those diamonds where the sun don't shine." I believe Hartmann received the diamonds with his side arm in place. :)
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the eastern front was pretty much a turkey shoot for the luftwaffe up until the latter stages of the war.
anyone can vulch, pick, gang and horde right?
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read a biography on hartmann recently, pretty much what was stated there as well.
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the eastern front was pretty much a turkey shoot for the luftwaffe up until the latter stages of the war.
anyone can vulch, pick, gang and horde right?
Hartmann didn't start scoring consistently until Summer 1943.
P.S. Although Hartman didn't fly in the West, 5 or 6 of his kills were USAAF P-51s.
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In Johnnie Johnson's book he describes leading his wing over Berlin and encountering a large formation of Russian fighters, he said it was like watching a swarm of insects, the leader would lead the way and the remainder would just follow around in an unorganised gaggle.
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it just goes to show how any statistical information can look great on paper but in reality If I was thinking great german pilots I'd be suggesting hans joachim marseille over the numerical superiors.
I guess the scoring system in AH is similiar in a funny sort of way.
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Something else to keep in mind is these guys flew several missions in a day throughout much of the war. The allied counterparts (US and British) would usually fly every few days with the exception of the BoB. Thats what numbers allowed anyway. That helps explain the huge disparity in planes shot down. You still have to be a skilled pilot with exceptional marksmanship to attain those numbers so I am taking nothing away from those great air warriors. Also if you want impressive look at how quickly Hans J. Marseille JG 27 shot down the allied planes in North Afrika. Had he lived to see the end of the war his numbers would have been up there with Hartman if he maintained that pace.
LTARogue
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You Go Bruv :)
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Barkhorn and Rall flew the Fw 190 as well, and Nowotny also flew the 262.
Hans-Ulrich Rudel, who flew the Ju 87 and ground attack versions of the Fw190, destroyed, among other things, 519 tanks, 150 artillery guns, 1 destroyer, 2 cruisers, 1 battleship, and shot down 9 aircraft.
The highest scoring ace in the Western European/ Mediterranean theater was Hans-Joachim Marseille, again a Bf 109 pilot, who shot down 158 aircraft in something like a year and a half, mainly of the RAF (which was widely regarded as the most skilled airforce of those the Luftwaffe flew against), before he was killed bailing out of his Bf 109G-1 when the engine malfunctioned (this seems to have been a common problem with the early G-1 models). I think Marseille also holds the record for most aircraft shot down in a single day, at 17. (whoops, no, that's Emil Lang with 18)
The highest scoring non German ace was Finnish pilot Ilmari Juutilainen, who scored 94 victories in the Fokker D.XXI, Brewster 239, and over half in the Bf 109.
The highest scoring Allied ace was Ivan Kozhedub, who scored 62 kills in Lavochkins, including an Me 262.
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Take a look at the list of RAF aces of Battle of Britain (roughly 3 months of intense fighting). Had they flown with similar intensity for another 5 years, some of them would come close to Luftwaffe top guns or even beat them. Quality of opposition, especially in 1941, was also a factor.
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I believe they get into this comparison in "Allied Fighters Aces".Many of the top scoreing Western Allied aces could have come up with the same stats had they flown the same number of hours as Luftwaffe pilots.If Barkhorn was in the USAAF or RAF we most likely would never of heard of him.
Johnnie Johnson in his book "Wing Leader" questions the number of kills Marseille scored.I never realy got into investigating this.
Now Joseph "Pips" Priller was the man!He shot down just over 100 planes all in the west!The highest scoring Luftwaffe pilot againts Spitfires!Strafed the beaches of Normandy and never got shot down! He also had a brewery back home :aok .....ok ok I admit a bit of bias on my part <BG>
Pipz
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Take a look at the list of RAF aces of Battle of Britain (roughly 3 months of intense fighting). Had they flown with similar intensity for another 5 years, some of them would come close to Luftwaffe top guns or even beat them. Quality of opposition, especially in 1941, was also a factor.
German kills during the Battle of Britain were very high as well. It would have been during this time period that the first German pilots began to break Richtofen's WWI score of 80 IIRC. Not sure if that includes those pilot's Spanish Civil War kills, though.
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You mean they couldn't just jump in a new plane after dieing? What kind of game is that? :lol
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Major Heinz Schnaufer had 121 victories in the ME-110 all at night in the west. Sure, they were all bombers but in one night he shot down 9 Lancs! Imagine trying to find bombers at night by looking for red hot exhaust. He also perfected a way to shoot them down where the crew had a good chance to bail out.
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Bruv, nice mention there.
Here's a bio of another guy... http://www.luftwaffe.cz/hahn.html
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they may have got a lot of easy kills {eastern front} But there experience was unreal... Notice hartman and the second leading ace survived..I read that hartman was put on the western front toward the end of the war.. :salute
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Barkhorn never scored a victory in a 190.and he spent all of 45 in a 190.also he said that the G6 was his favorite 109
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they may have got a lot of easy kills {eastern front} But there experience was unreal... Notice hartman and the second leading ace survived.
Rall (275) is still alive!
Barkhorn never scored a victory in a 190.and he spent all of 45 in a 190.also he said that the G6 was his favorite 109
That's weird, I have a profile of a Dora labeled as his when he was Kommandeur of JG6.
I read that hartman was put on the western front toward the end of the war.. :salute
Nope. He was supposed to be transferred to the Me 262, but declined to stay with JG52. He did encounter USAAF fighters, though. Shot down a few Mustangs.
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You guy forgot about the best one of them all, Hans Jochen Marseille!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans-Joachim_Marseille
NO other pilot destroyed as many western allied aircraft as Marseille in such a short time frame.
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You guy forgot about the best one of them all, Hans Jochen Marseille!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans-Joachim_Marseille
NO other pilot destroyed as many western allied aircraft as Marseille in such a short time frame.
Marseille has been mentioned a few times <G>
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=D good!
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That's weird, I have a profile of a Dora labeled as his when he was Kommandeur of JG6.
Yes he was, his Dora is in the game as well, but he never landed a victory in the Dora.
IIRC, he was either transferred or was injured and came back as the Kommandeur.
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it just goes to show how any statistical information can look great on paper but in reality If I was thinking great german pilots I'd be suggesting hans joachim marseille over the numerical superiors.
I guess the scoring system in AH is similiar in a funny sort of way.
so.....I'm marseille....and you would be......hartmann! :devil
:aok
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so.....I'm burt....and you would be......ernie! :devil
:aok
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I personally get the vibe that bruv is just out to snip the western luftwaffe pilots. Although it could be just me.
:noid
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I personally get the vibe that bruv is just out to snip the western luftwaffe pilots. Although it could be just me.
:noid
No , Bruce Lee killed Chuck Norris.
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Hartmann's interview: http://www.acesofww2.com/germany/aces/Hartmann.htm (http://www.acesofww2.com/germany/aces/Hartmann.htm)
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vulchin scorepotatos. all they care about is their K/D.
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There is an interview on youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STFdRrWBW2w) where Günther Rall was asked why the German pilots had such high ranks (in terms of kills) and he said 1) there were more targets, 2) they had longer combat sorties, 3) they were rotated back quickly after they were injured. There is another interview somewhere where an RAF pilot speaks about how the Germans treated the whole air-war (especially in the early war years) as a competitive sport based on individual scores whereas RAF pilots tried not to boast too much and scored as unites more. . .I'm sure this all changed once the yanks entered the war in force.
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One stat that isn't there is how many years they flew to achieve those numbers
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You have to also bear in mind that axis pilots fought throughout the war, or until they were killed.
It was normal allied practice to pull pilots out of the front line after a certain number of tours. A good allied pilot was put to better use training new pilots.
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An axis pilot taking off was almost guaranteed to find a fight. Many allied pilots, especially later in the war, flew an entire tour and got a glimpse at a Messerschmidt maybe once or twice. I remember some attempt to normalize Robert Johnson's score by his number of sorties and number of times he actually engaged the LW.
Experience goes a long long way in a war. The LW pilots that were talented enough or just lucky enough to survive, racked up more experience than the most experienced allied pilot. Even a naturally mediocre pilots with lots of experience can become really good and club the talented newbies in their spitfires, P51 and yaks - as we all know so well from AH.
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Major Heinz Schnaufer had 121 victories in the ME-110 all at night in the west. Sure, they were all bombers but in one night he shot down 9 Lancs! Imagine trying to find bombers at night by looking for red hot exhaust. He also perfected a way to shoot them down where the crew had a good chance to bail out.
he had a cool nick name the brits gave him too...the ghost of somethin or other...anyone know?
as for the 109 pilots could you imagine when Hartman and Krupinski were wingin oooh what a world of pain!
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The aces were just that.
Axis. Allied. Each flew under different conditions and should be compared to those that faced the same odds. All were courageous, even the ones that flew with fear.
#'s are just that.
The only stat in a war that really matters is 0. That is, who didn't sign a surrender.
Axis - 2, Allies 0
Advantage Allies.
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TOP “western allies” Ace, South African Sqn Ldr Marmaduke T. St. Pattle DFC & Bar with 51 Victories. killed 20 April 1941 over Eleusis Bay in Athens area, leading a force of 15 Hurricane MkI defending the Greek capital from a massive air raid of almost 200 Ju-88, Do 17, Bf-110 and Bf-109
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we always talk about the WW2 aces, IMO the WW1 aces were the true fighter aces!!!!!!!
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we always talk about the WW2 aces, IMO the WW1 aces were the true fighter aces!!!!!!!
Yeah, especially before they had guns. Can't throw a brick at somebody from their 6, gotta maneuver above them to drop that paver.