Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: Yarbles on May 12, 2009, 06:30:28 AM
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Why do so few people play in axis v allies? :frown:
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Limited plane sets
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Limited plane sets
BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Its a little deeper than that... :rofl :rofl
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Its because the arena is haunted. :t
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I assumed when I joined the whole thing would be like axis v allies. Its an anathema to me two german planes fighting eachother. The planes evolved to fight the other countires planes not each other and this is part of the facination for me. Shure a free for all arena is a good idea but I thought A V A would be the most popular not the least.
When I get a fight in AVA it seems to be dictated by Channel 200 as in why did you do that why arnt ou doing this, you should learn how to do ACM'S better.
I want a realistic combat simulation for a bit of fun not some geek telling me how to play AH like he thinks it should be because he spends most of his life on here.
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I assumed when I joined the whole thing would be like axis v allies. Its an anathema to me two german planes fighting eachother. The planes evolved to fight the other countires planes not each other and this is part of the facination for me. Shure a free for all arena is a good idea but I thought A V A would be the most popular not the least.
What are you talking about? Right know there is a BoB setup and unless the arena is porked its always Axis vs. Allies.
When I get a fight in AVA it seems to be dictated by Channel 200 as in why did you do that why arnt ou doing this, you should learn how to do ACM'S better.
Here is a great idea, detune 200 and you wont have to see that.
I want a realistic combat simulation for a bit of fun not some geek telling me how to play AH like he thinks it should be because he spends most of his life on here.
Then you shouldn't be playing in any arenas. There will always be people that tell you to do this or that but its up to you to listen to them or not. If you cant handle people like that then you should be playing an on line game.
From your two posts you I see you aren't here to ask why people dint fly the AvA. You are just here to stir the pot and get everyone pissed off at each other.
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From your two posts you I see you aren't here to ask why people dint fly the AvA. You are just here to stir the pot and get everyone pissed off at each other.
Sorry if I gave the wrong impression I would like more people to fly AVA its a bit boring when you are the only one on.
So I would like to know whhy more people dont I suppose and ideally would like to promote it somehow.
I find iots either empty or a series of duels between old lags.
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One of the main reasons no one flies the arena is because no one flies the arena.
It may sound strange at first but its true. No one wants to go into an arena when no one is there to fight. Best thing to do is find someone that wants to go there in the MAs and fight them for a while. Most of the time when people see others in there they will check to see whats happening and if begins to snowball. The more people that are in the arena the more that go in.
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One of the main reasons no one flies the arena is because no one flies the arena.
It may sound strange at first but its true. No one wants to go into an arena when no one is there to fight. Best thing to do is find someone that wants to go there in the MAs and fight them for a while. Most of the time when people see others in there they will check to see whats happening and if begins to snowball. The more people that are in the arena the more that go in.
I shall do just that thing :salute
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One of the main reasons no one flies the arena is because no one flies the arena.
It may sound strange at first but its true. No one wants to go into an arena when no one is there to fight. Best thing to do is find someone that wants to go there in the MAs and fight them for a while. Most of the time when people see others in there they will check to see whats happening and if begins to snowball. The more people that are in the arena the more that go in.
I couldn't say it better.
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I couldn't say it better.
No way! :D
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Best fights you'll ever get are in the AvA
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And the best smack :aok
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Me thinks Marbles tender ego is just a few weeks away from a "I'm leaving this game forever!" post...
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Me thinks Marbles tender ego is just a few weeks away from a "I'm leaving this game forever!" post...
I dont do all that Flouncy nonsense though Ive read many of these. Its all in the hope that someone will do some shallow soul searching and beg the particular jesse not to leave as they will be misses. All that obvious attention seeking not for me. I try to stimulate people to think not emotionally blackmail them.
Anyway whats the beef I am trying to be constructive about A V A here I just dont like the people who fly in it :rofl
Seriously I have had some great fightis in their but its also far too gentlemanly for my liking. If I see anyone haveing a nice little one on one I will join in if it suits me and if you dontlike it go to he TA.
Result Ill probably end up on my own again but I long for a proper A V A war and Ill be on in a couple of hours :rock
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Your going to have to try a different bait if your going to troll in here, according to your stats you've yet to fly in the aVa this month.
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Food for Thought:
I think there is perhaps an exploitable niche market of AHII players tired of the farcical "war", the hordes, and yes, the unrealistic matchups of the same planes again and again in the MA. This is certainly the appeal of FSO and other Special Events to these players.
Yet these same player's vision of a "historical arena" might *not* be an arena where one gets the impression that the only approved behavior is to pick out the best "dueling plane" each team has, and then have it out in low altitude 1v1s.
Yet,to be fair, I realize that when you have ~4 or so players in an arena, that is about the only way to proceed.
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Yarbles, I share the same passion for "AvA combat" that you do. I joined the game under the assumption it was just that. Feel free to fly how you want, allthought some tactics will be frowned upon.
Next time you're thinking about going in the AvA shoot me a PM. if I'm on i'll come join you.
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Same for me yarbles
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Yeah, I came here to fly Allied planes against Luftwaffe planes, or the other way around. I'm a bit disappointed that instead I'm flying a Spit while 2 other guys flying on my wing are flying a Bf110 and a Zero while I'm going up against a Lanc and a Hurricane.
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Next time you're thinking about going in the AvA shoot me a PM. if I'm on i'll come join you.
As Gavagai and Larry say, this generally works. Once you have a couple of people in AvA, others will join in.
And as BnZ points out, "realistic war tactics" work best when you have a big crowd. When you only have a few people, showing some consideration for fairness works a bit of magic.
- oldman
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While there is clearly a difference between the old CT mentality and the current AvA both were based on historical plane sets and share the same fundamental set up. Early on the CT was considered the elite arena, just look at the top 50 players each month in the 1st few years...its a who's who of AH sticks. In fact if we go back to the old days the great pilot match ups were historical (hangtime vs hblair for one). In fact the great debates on the FM's came from pilots attempts to mirror the tactics used vs historical opponents.
The CT never recovered from the introduction of "game play" to the arena. The old guard would seamlessly transition from 1 on 1 to small group and melee encounters while maintaining balance and a reasonable measure of fair play. Historical realities were accounted for and 190A5 vs spitV/9 interactions (for example) were fun and common. Both sides realizing the contrast and challenge involved worked within the boundaries of "their fight" without the BS we see all to often on 200 (in any arena). The AvA evolved from the ruins of the CT and despite every ones best efforts has never gained traction.
In part this is due to the fundamental shift in game dynamics that has driven hundreds (if not thousands) of the initial player base away from the game. I'm not condemning the "new reality" just recognizing it exists. The old way existed within game dynamics because it had to. When you had an average player base (in arena) of 20-40 guys (FR AW circa 1992) you nurtured the baby seals. By the time I really hit the scene (the $12/hr was beyond me) in 1993 (whenever it went to $2/hr or so) the old guard would make allowances and nurture guys like me....because it worked. So I got a bone now and then, guys like rocketman and -HR- mentored me (and everyone else) to ensure they had people to kill. The game was "playercentric".
The CT (being largely old school "elite" players) had this same flavor and personal interaction. In effect it was an attempt to recreate the old AW FR (I didnt fly WB enough but possibly that too) within the new game (AH). Once it got polluted (for lack of a better word) the original inhabitants either "died" or adapted to the new realities.
The truth is simple, in a low # environment you don't have the option of flying like you want if you are the dominant entity in skill, plane numbers or a combination of the above. The AvA is what it is because thats the way the player base has made it. Since the player base wont/cant police itself (or is happy with the current realities) the arena doesn't really change...
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All the arena is missing is a single squad that dedicates some, if not the majority of it's time to populating the arena. Anytime that you get 5 or more "active" players in the arena, the game play is as good as it gets in AHII.
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All the arena is missing is a single squad that dedicates some, if not the majority of it's time to populating the arena. Anytime that you get 5 or more "active" players in the arena, the game play is as good as it gets in AHII.
You couldn't be more wrong, by and large "game play" in the AvA scrapes the bottom of the barrel. That doesn't mean its universally bad or is it a condemnation of any single player or squad. The reality is that FSO is more popular then ever yet the closest approximation for a regular arena is often totally empty. This is a straight forward reflection on how most historically minded pilots in the game feel about the realities of the AvA.
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You couldn't be more wrong, by and large "game play" in the AvA scrapes the bottom of the barrel. That doesn't mean its universally bad or is it a condemnation of any single player or squad. The reality is that FSO is more popular then ever yet the closest approximation for a regular arena is often totally empty. This is a straight forward reflection on how most historically minded pilots in the game feel about the realities of the AvA.
Well put. As was your first post as well.
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Well put. As was your first post as well.
+1
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love the comments by people that never play. good show boys. funny i always have a great time in there. the guys are friendly, the fights are fair, and of course there the gentleman's gentleman oldman to look forward too also. as for all your lovely comments, "what have you done for the AVA lately??" -- oh yeah and before i forget...........IN!!
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love the comments by people that never play. good show boys. funny i always have a great time in there. the guys are friendly, the fights are fair, and of course there the gentleman's gentleman oldman to look forward too also. as for all your lovely comments, "what have you done for the AVA lately??" -- oh yeah and before i forget...........IN!!
This highlights the sad reality, the few people who find the arena to be "good" somehow feel that the individual stamp of approval they give makes it so. As long as this type of delusion exists nothing can or will change. If in fact it was "good" more people would be there. Again this is not directed as an attack but as an observation....
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This highlights the sad reality, the few people who find the arena to be "good" somehow feel that the individual stamp of approval they give makes it so. As long as this type of delusion exists nothing can or will change. If in fact it was "good" more people would be there. Again this is not directed as an attack but as an observation....
I agree again.
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My problem with the AvA is that when I pop in, there is rarely a fight, and when I try to talk to the guys who are on, to maybe track down some red or switch sides and get some action going, I seem to always log in when the jerks are on, because no one ever really responds. AvA has always felt to me like a clique I'm not welcome in. But that's just me.
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All the arena is missing is a single squad that dedicates some, if not the majority of it's time to populating the arena. Anytime that you get 5 or more "active" players in the arena, the game play is as good as it gets in AHII.
Thanks Jaeger. :aok
love the comments by people that never play. good show boys. funny i always have a great time in there. the guys are friendly, the fights are fair, and of course there the gentleman's gentleman oldman to look forward too also. as for all your lovely comments, "what have you done for the AVA lately??" -- oh yeah and before i forget...........IN!!
Things are always changing. For those that rely on their memories, it puzzles me why there is a need to comment on an AvA that has gone through some major changes in the last few months. :confused: Is it some sort of need to gloat that an arena that is in fact the equivalent of a 24 hour FSO planeset, is empty? As with most Special Events, they are set at times that sadly, I and a number of other Aces High players are unable to attend.
The misconception that 200 needs to be de-tuned has added to the "stand offish" feel to new participants. Also, it smells more like the Main Arena, where dogfights are avoided unless there is a clear advantage on the side of the attacker.
Flying in the AvA with the number of excellent pilots who "regularly" populate the arena, for the feel of historical matchups, has given me the opportunity to develop strategies to employ when fighting at a disadvantage as well. So, you can have your 109 versus 190 or Zeke Early War and Mid War arenas, they have nothing besides slightly better numbers and easy perk points to offer.
So, anyone brave enough to get over themselves and prove that they can give new ideas a chance to work, are invited to put up (join in on the fun) or ...................... ;)
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So, anyone brave enough to get over themselves and prove that they can give new ideas a chance to work, are invited to put up (join in on the fun) or .........
Here again we see the reality and the depth of the problem. Any objective criticism is instinctively dismissed in a knee jerk manner and an attempt to ridicule or somehow diminish the source is made. For the sake of dialogue I'll address the points made...
1) very little functional change has occurred in the AvA, it's the same people in a different package....
2) FSO is nothing about the plane set, there is no comparison (sadly) between FSO and the AvA functionally. The AvA is not and does not measure up to any "special event".
3) The pilot skill in the AvA is not any better and I rarely have seen any indication of individual quality ACM or an inclination to dogfight from a disadvantage from a majority of the player base. Again there are always exceptions to any blanket statement like that.
I've been here (AH) since the 1st open beta, I've flown "FR" WW2 flight sims (AW) since 1993 or so. I've got a pretty good idea of where I fall in the pecking order. I'm certainly not the best and I'm far from the worst stick in the game. The functional reality is that I can fly an SBD about as effectively as the average AH pilot flies a spit XVI. I really don't have anything to "get over" and nothing to "put up". On thise very rare occasions I see any action in the AvA I'll pop in...but the thought that you somehow have a better bicycle is really the heart of the problem here....you simply do not.
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Simple fact is that the AvA isn't for everyone. Those that like it play there often and mainly have good things to say about it. For a few years I only played for AvA/CT and hardly ever stepped into the MAs. IMO it was and still is the best place to get better faster. Those that don't like it, for what ever reason/excuse, are usually the ones that come on the boards and badmouth the arena and those who fly there. You can see a few of them are already here. Funny thing is you only see them in the arena two maybe three times a year, and they never try to help the arena. They are always talking about how the arena used to be and how its so crappy now. Yet they never go in and try to fix the 'problems' they see in the arena. You never see them talking to the CMs giving them ideas to improve game play. They just squeak and whine here on the boards and call it 'objective criticism'. If they really wanted to change the arena they would take the time to do it, but they don't want it to change. They want it to stay the same so they will have something to cry about when they see a thread like this.
What really killed the CT/AvA was AHII nothing more nothing less. You will see some of those people try to deny that but I was there before and after and let me tell you, before AHII came out we had tons of maps and 20-30people in there a night. It went from that to 5 people a night if you were lucky. After AHII many people didn't have the computers to run it and had to quit. We lost our CO and a few more from our squad alone. We had no AvA maps and had to use MA maps for months which kept others away. They didn't like coming into a limited planeset arena when the MA had the very same map with all planes enabled. AHII was a blow to CT/AvA that it never recovered from.
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Any objective criticism is instinctively dismissed in a knee jerk manner and an attempt to ridicule or somehow diminish the source is made.
We don't mind hearing objective criticism. But usually all we get are generalities. This thread is yet another example. Other than saying things like "the attitudes are bad," just what is it that people think should be changed? Specifics would be helpful, changes we could actually make.
Over the years (yes, it's been years...I really AM old...) I've seen good people leave because historical tactics are discouraged, and I've seen good people leave because historical tactics make for poor fights. I've heard complaints that this has become a furballers' arena, and complaints that our base capture or strategic objective wars make game play uninteresting ("Hey, I can get this in the MA!"). People complain that the settings are too hard, people complain that they're too easy. (The most common complaint - that some of the people were too mean in their Channel 200 conversations - has largely been remedied.) My own sense is that it's a combination of Uptown's initial observation that limited plane sets limit the number of people who will come here, together with Humble's (correct, in my opinion) view that the player base has changed significantly in a way that has lost us many of the historians.
So put up or shut up, folks. What changes could we make that would bring you into the arena on a regular basis?
- oldman
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So put up or shut up, folks. What changes could we make that would bring you into the arena on a regular basis?
- oldman
More sheep that would be kept away from jaeger and tyrant. After those two are done with them the sheep are never the same. :cry
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i represent that!!!........oops! :huh
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the CT died way before AH2 but thats another issue....
The original poster asked a question and I tried to give an objective answer. I can't speak for anyone else but the reality is I don't "need" the AvA so I have no motivation to try and change it since the core group likes it how it is and doesn't really want to change it. View it from this perspective, many folks like me can stop in a few times a year and observe things and say its the same as it has been yet those inside feel massive changes. While an individual component may have been altered the interaction and overall feel is the same to the rest of us.
Again if it was really different people would be there. The AvA bears no resemblance to the CT of 2002/2003 (its high water mark). By mid 2004 the CT was already dead. What made the CT of that era "special" was the people who populated it, not the plane set itself. All you need to do is read the posts here from the people who actually fly in the AvA (with exception of oldman) to realize where and what the issue is....
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All you need to do is read the posts here from the people who actually fly in the AvA (with exception of oldman) to realize where and what the issue is....
Or look at the people that never fly the AvA and only come in here to say bad things about it. Again another big issue that keeps people away from the arena.
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So put up or shut up, folks. What changes could we make that would bring you into the arena on a regular basis?
Hmmmmm...
- No bomber drones, they warp.
- Ack at 1.0 lethality
- Enemy icons at 3k
- Incorporate ENY and perks to encourage the use of less capable aircraft
- AvA arena moved to a server that isn't shared with the main arena
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the CT died way before AH2 but thats another issue....
The original poster asked a question and I tried to give an objective answer. I can't speak for anyone else but the reality is I don't "need" the AvA so I have no motivation to try and change it since the core group likes it how it is and doesn't really want to change it. View it from this perspective, many folks like me can stop in a few times a year and observe things and say its the same as it has been yet those inside feel massive changes. While an individual component may have been altered the interaction and overall feel is the same to the rest of us.
Again if it was really different people would be there. The AvA bears no resemblance to the CT of 2002/2003 (its high water mark). By mid 2004 the CT was already dead. What made the CT of that era "special" was the people who populated it, not the plane set itself. All you need to do is read the posts here from the people who actually fly in the AvA (with exception of oldman) to realize where and what the issue is....
This is another excellent post by Snaphook.
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Hmmmmm...
- No bomber drones, they warp.
Then bombers get ate up by fighters.
Then people run to ack when they get into a fight they cant handle.
Think the only time they aren't at 3k is when the settings get fubared.
- Incorporate ENY and perks to encourage the use of less capable aircraft
This can be done by putting rare or 'new' planes at limited bases. Mainly don't with jets/temps. ENY doesn't work well with small numbers as you can see here. http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,264423.0.html
- AvA arena moved to a server that isn't shared with the main arena
This needed to be done months ago. Titanic Crapday ruined the mission the other week because it ran for three days.
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Or look at the people that never fly the AvA and only come in here to say bad things about it. Again another big issue that keeps people away from the arena.
I do fly the AvA on occasion and it is indeed "same old same old". The issue here isn't what any one person says (including me). It's a fundamental willingness to actually pull your head out of your.... and stop saying "my .... doesn't stink" and view the issues objectively. The population as a whole repeatedly steps up and says "you" (the collective AvA) aren't worth the time or effort yet some sort of elitist "we're better then them" mentality continues to exist with no apparent basis in reality.
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You have around four hours total flight time in the AvA in the past 12 months. No you don't fly it on occasion. You spend more time squeaking about people who actually spend time in the arena then you do flying in it. I am better then you. I try my damnedest to put weekly missions together and to bring good clean fights to the arena. What have you done? Nothing. Until you do I WILL be better then you because at least I try, and that's a hell of a lot more then you do.
Spend some time in the arena before you put it and the people that DO spend time in it, and maybe just maybe you might see what some of us are talking about.
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Incorporate ENY and perks to encourage the use of less capable aircraft Uh no... leave the ma in the ma.
How about create specific aircraft only available in the AvA, yeah I know thats most likely a dream. Though right now you could limit certain skins to only be available in the AvA or only enable the skins you would actually see in the specific confrontation for that weeks senario.
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You have around four hours total flight time in the AvA in the past 12 months. No you don't fly it on occasion. You spend more time squeaking about people who actually spend time in the arena then you do flying in it. I am better then you. I try my damnedest to put weekly missions together and to bring good clean fights to the arena. What have you done? Nothing. Until you do I WILL be better then you because at least I try, and that's a hell of a lot more then you do.
Spend some time in the arena before you put it and the people that DO spend time in it, and maybe just maybe you might see what some of us are talking about.
Hmmm....
All I did was answer the guys question, trust me when I say I know more about whats wrong with the AvA then you do. If you did know what was wrong you'd fix it. Obviously the desire and effort are there but not the results....since its empty most of the time.
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death to the allied dogs of war!! we want a kinder gentler third reich!!
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trust me when I say I know more about whats wrong with the AvA then you do.
...well...so...what the heck is it?
- oldman
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Hmmm....
All I did was answer the guys question, trust me when I say I know more about whats wrong with the AvA then you do. If you did know what was wrong you'd fix it. Obviously the desire and effort are there but not the results....since its empty most of the time.
Thing is I don't see any problems with the AvA. Sure there could be a little more people but there is absolutely nothing wrong with the AvA. There is something wrong when people like you, karaya, and krusty some in here trying to run people off with your negative attitude telling lies just because you don't want people to try the AvA out.
I can't speak for anyone else but the reality is I don't "need" the AvA so I have no motivation to try and change it since the core group likes it how it is and doesn't really want to change it.
See that is what the problem is. You don't fly or care about the AvA you just want to lie and talk noodles so others wont fly. Like the others said put up or shut up. its as simple as that.
...well...so...what the heck is it?
- oldman
Nothing OM he just wants attention.
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Maybe AvA needs a name change. Seems to have worked for the Me 210 -> Me 410 and Vista -> Windows 7. It'll look like something new and might get people to come in and see what's going on.
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It already had one. It was Combat Theater until a few years ago when HTC wanted 'CT' for Combat Tour that never happened.
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Thing is I don't see any problems with the AvA
Thats the 1st problem, if you throw a party and no one comes it tells you something....
Sure there could be a little more people
Sounds like the problem that doesnt exist the initial poster inquired about...
There is something wrong when people like you
Murder the messenger?
I don't go around bashing the AvA, in fact I hope it does take off, but until the guys who do fly it open to change it will take similar shift to 2004 to make it happen.
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See that's the thing. You and all the other bashers are the ones that want things to change. OM asked what you would do and nothing. Tell us how you would do things instead of saying you're not going to because no one sees a problem. Again put up or shut up.
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See that's the thing. You and all the other bashers are the ones that want things to change. OM asked what you would do and nothing. Tell us how you would do things instead of saying you're not going to because no one sees a problem. Again put up or shut up.
What "we" do is pointless, because no matter what "we" say, you'll have the same "We don't need to change" attitude. Sooner or later, you'll grasp this concept.
I don't tell lies. My statements of the past are VERY substantiated and backed. I don't post negative things. I only "correct" the BS that is sometimes foisted off in the heat of "exaggeration". If some of the lunacy left the AvA, I would become a "regular", but until I see a change, I'll wait.
I'm not "bashing" anything. Point out a single post in this thread where "Karaya bashed the AvA". You can't, because I never did. You only see what you want to see and ignore the rest. Jaeger, antivortex have done nothing positive in this thread, compared to what Humble posted.
We want to help, but you won't let us.
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The original post stated the obvious, AvA is a great arena, and it baffles those of us who enjoy the historical matchups that it is empty 95% of the time.
I have had my own personal fallout, and had to get over myself. The funny thing is, I can't remember what ticked me off so. The best that I can recollect, events that attracted large number of participants were taken off the shelf and never examined. For anyone who has been in touch with the AvA in the past few tours, that has been corrected with the recent influx of new interesting events.
Hmmmmm...
- No bomber drones, they warp. Okay, maybe during regular arena hours, but allowed in some events
- Ack at 1.0 lethality The bases are generally so close together ack will hit you as soon after you take off
- Enemy icons at 3k I don't think it is necessary to sneak around, but okay maybe... or adjust radar
- Incorporate ENY and perks to encourage the use of less capable aircraft I like the idea of some sort of reward for successful tactics but am worried about how to balance those who run away from fair fights for the sake of perks
- AvA arena moved to a server that isn't shared with the main arena Glitches that are caused by other arenas, are beyond the CMs control, but identifying the culprit does help
See..... maybe there is some middle ground. The best way to find out is to come up with an event idea, with your suggestions in mind and let Oldman and staff do there magic. It has been very rewarding to participate in an arena where, player consideration is actually implemented.
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...well...so...what the heck is it?
- oldman
I didnt mean to ignore you earlier oldman, I know you put forth a lot of effort (not discounting efforts by larry or others btw).
1st I'll examine my 2 "recent" forays into the AvA. Most recent was the Midway setup (tour 82). A convergence of 2 things...numbers and the SBD
As always I flew the low numbered side. Now this is a set up that greatly favored the IJN, especially with low ack lethality and the carriers parked very close to the field. Realistically the only plane that the allies had that can furball with the zeke is actually the SBD which is an almost even match for it if the SBD has gotten high enough to have some room in the verts. When the allies had numbers (rare) then the alt advantage gave them a decent chance but even so with alt and numbers it was an uphill slog for most of them.
For the most part the fight was right over the atoll and often in the ack vs roughly 2-1 numbers. The simple reality is that historical setups are not often well balanced and it takes player discipline. You cant control the fact that most players (including Larry) favored the axis and pressed the action to gain a double advantage.
I wasn't just there for 1 or 2 hops. My fighter score was enough to rank me 13 for the entire tour and I was 6-6 vs zekes in the SBD fighting them literally off the end of the runway. For me thats fine, but how many guys will stick around for that? This isnt a "design" issue its a game play issue....
Got some work stuff....more later
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If we go back further it was some MTO (sicily or tunesia) with decent numbers but fundamentally a rolling pick fest were you could easily pick the fights but if you bothered to fight you just got picked. In this case I think the plane set was among the best possible but the interaction again was stunted by the player actions. The reality is that it doesn't take a lot to imbalance things with low numbers...so a few guys pick and then a few guys on other side and soon its out of hand.
now the counter point is that "picking" is entirely what real WW2 combat was about. More numbers, more alt a few passes and off you go. So you have a subset that want to fly the "better" plane with numbers and fly from strength vs others who prefer to T&B or don't mind working from a disadvantage. Inevitably the numbers on the "lesser" side attrite since no real framework for interaction exists. Very few truly balanced plane sets exist IMO so in the end the players need to carry the load and work within the imbalance.
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The same few folks saying "there's nothing wrong, you're all just liars!!!" are the ones that cause most of the problems.
Note I've been trashed extensively in these forums (even when I'm not here) by these same folks that plug their ears and shout "la la la!! NOTHING IS WRONG!!!!"
Snap, karaya, they have their private boy's club, it's a treehouse if you will. They like it as-is, an are the only ones that will be allowed in. I say let them have it. Let it self-implode until HTC finally wises up and closes it down.
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So put up or shut up, folks. What changes could we make that would bring you into the arena on a regular basis?
- oldman
Its pretty simple for me. I fly in a P38 squad. We pretty much don't get excited about flying anything else. We also fly together, usually four or five guys at any given time. The major reason I don't spend more time in the AvA is its is too much trouble trying to figure out what the current plane set is at any given moment and it certainly doesn't stay the same for long enough. 2 weeks is what I consider the ideal time period for a particular plane set in an historical arena. Time enough to really enjoy it. And long enough to get into the habit of spending time in the AvA. If I was running the AvA I would get as far away as possible from the historical matchups that seem to appeal to very limited player numbers and run stuff that would draw folks and get them used to flying in the AvA. Still historical but not specifically designed to keep numbers as low as possible.
If I got an email telling me the setups and what dates they would be in the AvA it would increase my attendance. If the P38 was a regular staple, my squad would have a bigger presence there. Is that selfish? Sure. But that is the way it is. My squadron would be perfectly happy flying a permanent New Guinea setup.
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You cant control the fact that most players (including Larry) favored the axis and pressed the action to gain a double advantage.
See there is another one of those lies I was talking about. When I see numbers uneven I almost always switch to even them out. The only time I don't is when my squad is some sort of missun. What you probably don't remember, or just don't want to, is the time that the allies were out numbered and I switched over and rolled a SBD right behind you.
We want to help, but you won't let us.
Just another excuse. Like I said you don't want to help you just want to look like you want to help. If you really wanted to help you would be in the arena trying to change us for the 'better'. But then you would actually have to do something. You say you want something to change but aren't willing to put the work in. Only reason you're in here is to try and make yourself look like the good guy. Well I'm sorry to say you aren't. You're not a regular int he AvA and you will never be because you would rather come here and trash talk then actually do something about it. Until then keep crying on here while the rest of us play in our little 'sandbox'. :rolleyes:
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See there is another one of those lies I was talking about. When I see numbers uneven I almost always switch to even them out. The only time I don't is when my squad is some sort of missun. What you probably don't remember, or just don't want to, is the time that the allies were out numbered and I switched over and rolled a SBD right behind you.
Just another excuse. Like I said you don't want to help you just want to look like you want to help. If you really wanted to help you would be in the arena trying to change us for the 'better'. But then you would actually have to do something. You say you want something to change but aren't willing to put the work in. Only reason you're in here is to try and make yourself look like the good guy. Well I'm sorry to say you aren't. You're not a regular int he AvA and you will never be because you would rather come here and trash talk then actually do something about it. Until then keep crying on here while the rest of us play in our little 'sandbox'. :rolleyes:
Oh....and getting Larry to stop posting would help to. The above quote is an example of all the worst of the AvA. I'm sure the guy means well but the AvA would be better served if he just stopped posting (voluntarily...I'm not talking about forcing him to do so). I'm fairly sure I know exactly what he will post in response but Oldman asked for suggestions, so here are my suggestions.
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getting people who don't fly the AVA to stop posting would be nice too. that way that people that do fly the AVA can make suggestions, without being critisized or attacked by someone that has no clue of what they're talking about.
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getting people who don't fly the AVA to stop posting would be nice too. that way that people that do fly the AVA can make suggestions, without being critisized or attacked by someone that has no clue of what they're talking about.
DING DING DING WE HAVE A WINNA!!!
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Oh....and getting Larry to stop posting would help to. The above quote is an example of all the worst of the AvA. I'm sure the guy means well but the AvA would be better served if he just stopped posting (voluntarily...I'm not talking about forcing him to do so). I'm fairly sure I know exactly what he will post in response but Oldman asked for suggestions, so here are my suggestions.
You see dawger I have the right to express my opinion. More then that my opinion matters a wee bit more then yours since I am involved in playing and bettering the arena. You on the other hand have done nothing to help the arena. Nine out of ten of your posts about the AvA revolve around you crying about some set of rules that don't exist. As jaeger said it would help a hell of a lot more if people that don't fly the AvA weren't allowed in here to start trouble. As snaphook said he doesn't care about nor feels like doing anything for the arena yet he feels the need to come here and put people down. And the only reason he doesn't want to do anything because he disagrees with some people. To me that sounds like he wants his way but doesn't want to work for it. Kinda like those beggars you see on the side of the road. They want you to give them money just for sitting there instead of going out and getting a job like everyone else.
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See there is another one of those lies I was talking about. When I see numbers uneven I almost always switch to even them out. The only time I don't is when my squad is some sort of missun. What you probably don't remember, or just don't want to, is the time that the allies were out numbered and I switched over and rolled a SBD right behind you.
Looking at the stats you killed me twice in zeke and I got you once in SBD. When I rolled the SBD initially the allies were outnumbered by more then 2/1 and the fight was right over the little island and atoll. I flew 9 sorties over just under an hour. Obviously you were flying axis for most of that time to have 3 separate encounters with me. I have no reason do argue if you switched or if we flew on the same side for a bit, none of this is personal between you and I. I took a break and came back and the #'s were flip flopped entirely so I flew a zeke. We had high p-40's and buffs attacking the carrier with a mix of F4F's....was a fun fight for a bit and then I logged for the night.
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I think there are so few people there because they're are so few people there. I think if a few people would go there every night and just fight and have fun. More people would show up. IIRC, back in BOA there was around 70 people at one time but I could be wrong.(still remember the first attack the Axis had starting at like 12 at night :lol)
When I first started flying in AvA, I thought it would be like real combat. Missions for each side by players setting them up. Like a side would set up a Bomber raid and the other side came after them. But only happens once a week if were lucky ;). I thought the wars were really fun and hope to see them come back soon. As I have already talked to the CMs for modifying them a little :).
Also IMO, if a few more squads would start coming and fly as a squad and have real combat operations etc. I think many people would love it. As FSO is the prime event for Aces High. If a few squads would start showing up and flying combat operations. It would be like FSO every day of the week. I talked to oaktree a few nights ago about some things about AvA. He had an excellent idea and I'll let him talk about it if he wants. I have many ideas my self but knockin them into a solid piece in my head takes a few days, months, and maybe years.
Thats all I have to say
Fud
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I think if you only allow people who regularly fly in the Ava to post opinions on why they don't regularly fly in the AvA then your results might be a little screwy.
But maybe that is just me.
And, yes, Larry you have every right to post any and everything you like but you (and everyone else) must live with the consequences.
And that, in a nutshell, is why the AvA continually struggles.
Fudgums is correct that it has too few people because it has too few people and if a small but vocal percentage continue to work to keep it that way, that is the way it shall remain.
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The point about bomber drones is this: They are not up to a high enough standard to be included in the game. They are in the main arena, it's true, but that's no justification to have them enabled when the players have a choice.
If they didn't warp when the lead pilot maneuvers then they would be great.
As for survivability, that's what fighter escorts and boxes are for.
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but i like flying bombers, we've had some great ki-67 missions and some really cool ju88 missions! i never noticed them warping.
of course the fact that we blow alot of stuff up and kill alot of fighters might have something to do with people not liking them. but hey, what do i know!
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I assumed when I joined the whole thing would be like axis v allies. Its an anathema to me two german planes fighting eachother. The planes evolved to fight the other countires planes not each other and this is part of the facination for me. Shure a free for all arena is a good idea but I thought A V A would be the most popular not the least.
When I get a fight in AVA it seems to be dictated by Channel 200 as in why did you do that why arnt ou doing this, you should learn how to do ACM'S better.
I want a realistic combat simulation for a bit of fun not some geek telling me how to play AH like he thinks it should be because he spends most of his life on here.
I totally agree with you Yarbles, but I never dare speak on the issue. Your point is why I end up constantly looking for ways to have fun in this game as I so want to as it relates to a WWII experience. I guess we have a strange quirk in our brains that just can't grasp a p-51 fighting a Spitfire or a 109 shooting down another 109.
It's an irony to me that as passionate, knowledgeable, and skillful as this community is when it comes to WWII aviation and knowledge of the topic itself I am just beside myself that the mid war arena is a ghost town. You would think it would be raging with pilots wanting to wage war with these aircraft (which were the planes just about all the pilots flew) without worrying about a Tempest or Spit XVI or P-51D or LA7 arriving via time travel to own the day easily.
It's an issue of balance. Axis vs. Allies in an unlimited plane set would be pointless. It would be a re-enactment of the final year of the war when the axis got chewed up horribly because the allied planes and munitions were just better and with more of them.
HTC has tried but the community wants a total free for all with all planes from all eras thrown into a giant chaotic salad so Galileio's math book has been thrown. Maybe one day someone will make a real WWII combat sim that hits the war at it's most competitive point.. mid war. Aces High is late war. Battleground Europe is early war.
HELLO!!! MID WAR!!!
Sorry, taking my pills now.
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You see dawger I have the right to express my opinion. More then that my opinion matters a wee bit more then yours since I am involved in playing and bettering the arena. You on the other hand have done nothing to help the arena. Nine out of ten of your posts about the AvA revolve around you crying about some set of rules that don't exist. As jaeger said it would help a hell of a lot more if people that don't fly the AvA weren't allowed in here to start trouble. As snaphook said he doesn't care about nor feels like doing anything for the arena yet he feels the need to come here and put people down. And the only reason he doesn't want to do anything because he disagrees with some people. To me that sounds like he wants his way but doesn't want to work for it. Kinda like those beggars you see on the side of the road. They want you to give them money just for sitting there instead of going out and getting a job like everyone else.
You're a 22 year old kid.
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You're a 22 year old kid.
And he works hard to create missions that will be a lot of fun for people.
Come help us out, Karaya. Standing on the sidelines throwing tomatos provides some perspective, but we could use some real assistance.
- oldman
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And he works hard to create missions that will be a lot of fun for people.
Come help us out, Karaya. Standing on the sidelines throwing tomatos provides some perspective, but we could use some real assistance.
- oldman
I have YET to "throw tomatoes" in this thread. Read my posts yourself. I offered to help, "they" don't want it.
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I have YET to "throw tomatoes" in this thread. Read my posts yourself. I offered to help, "they" don't want it.
So offer some help anyway. Check out the thread on "Some ideas to discuss."
- oldman
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You're a 22 year old kid.
And what does my age have to do with anything? That's right, absolutely nothing. You are just jealous that a 22 year old kid has done more for the AvA then you ever will.
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You on the other hand have done nothing to help the arena. Nine out of ten of your posts about the AvA revolve around you crying about some set of rules that don't exist.
I'll take exception to this part of that post since you insist on being a child. You were one of the folks who kept insisting that there was some sort of altitude limit in the AvA when I flew in there regularly a while back. You were part of the problem. Maybe you have since stopped doing that. I hope so. Because it keeps people out of the arena.
And you keep trying to say that I was the one causing the problem. It is a plain and simple attempt to deflect blame from yourself.
Just because you do volunteer work for the AvA it does not give you extra privileges of any sort. In fact, it demands a higher standard of behavior, not a lower standard.
I am disappointed that Oldman used your volunteer work in your defense. That does not bode well.
An arena that is trying to build a following needs ambassadors for the arena not prima donnas parading around trumpeting the sort of stuff you post on this forum and the sort of things I have personally seen you express in the arena.
Oldman seems to be backing you and your continued childish behavior. I understand he is grateful for the help but he is missing a major point. He would find lots of help that don't constantly parade a "Hey, look at me" sign if he made polite and positive behavior a pre-condition of being a part of the AvA team.
If I were the player running the AvA there would be no excuses for your behavior and would distance myself as far as possible from you unless you decided to become someone who worked for what was best for the AvA and the game instead of narrow self interest.
But it seems that your work in the arena excuses your behavior instead of making that work pointless. So I'm beginning to think I'm wasting my time here. I know with a certainty that if your behavior is acceptable as part of the AvA team then I could not and would not be part of that team.
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I had a big speech written up but I decided to keep it short.
The only people keeping you from playing the way you want, playing or helping the arena is youself. If you REALLY wanted to go something good for the arena then you wouldn't care what others want.
I'm not part of the AvA staff, I'm just a paying player like everyone else. How I act only reflects upon me. Not the arena. Not my squad. Not people who support what I do. As I said I'm just a player. Only difference is I stepped up and took it upon myself to bring more people into the arena. I'm just lucky that the AvA staff can look past my weak points and help me make the missions playable. And for that I thank them. If they thought that I was doing more bad then good then they could have my missions shut down in a heartbeat. If they thought that anyone was hurting the arena so much that they where the only problem keeping the arena populated then all it would take is one phone call to HTC.
So how about you and the others stop crying about how a few of us act and put your ideas out on the table. Better yet go around the AvA community and directly to the staff. Because like I said the only people stopping you are yourselves.
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I'll take exception to this part of that post since you insist on being a child. You were one of the folks who kept insisting that there was some sort of altitude limit in the AvA when I flew in there regularly a while back. You were part of the problem. Maybe you have since stopped doing that. I hope so. Because it keeps people out of the arena.
And you keep trying to say that I was the one causing the problem. It is a plain and simple attempt to deflect blame from yourself.
Just because you do volunteer work for the AvA it does not give you extra privileges of any sort. In fact, it demands a higher standard of behavior, not a lower standard.
I am disappointed that Oldman used your volunteer work in your defense. That does not bode well.
An arena that is trying to build a following needs ambassadors for the arena not prima donnas parading around trumpeting the sort of stuff you post on this forum and the sort of things I have personally seen you express in the arena.
Oldman seems to be backing you and your continued childish behavior. I understand he is grateful for the help but he is missing a major point. He would find lots of help that don't constantly parade a "Hey, look at me" sign if he made polite and positive behavior a pre-condition of being a part of the AvA team.
If I were the player running the AvA there would be no excuses for your behavior and would distance myself as far as possible from you unless you decided to become someone who worked for what was best for the AvA and the game instead of narrow self interest.
But it seems that your work in the arena excuses your behavior instead of making that work pointless. So I'm beginning to think I'm wasting my time here. I know with a certainty that if your behavior is acceptable as part of the AvA team then I could not and would not be part of that team.
and now for something completely different!! 8 paragraphs on larry's behavioral problems. how about some positive input there little buckeroo!!
I like playing in the AVA because..........
there i started it for you, now you can finish it easily.
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I agree Dawger...Larry's attitude isn't always acceptable. I personally have never had a problem with him, but I have seen it.
Larry has seemed to always treat me with respect, as I him. Other squadies of his hasn't and still don't, but I will only tolerate it for so long. Back on topic. Honestly, Larry helped me quite a bit with computer issues, and once when I asked for a specific 38 skin, he very quickly finished a nightfighter 38J skin (I lost the file thingy for it so I can't fly it offline, could I possibly get that sent to me again? :lol)
Also, Larry is easily the most active AvA member, and he does try to draw in numbers with his Wednesday night missions. I think he does a pretty good job, considering the plane set is not always appealing to everyone, and advertising for the AvA is not really an easy task.
I don't think Oldman was using Larry's advisory status (for lack of a better term) as an excuse for his behavior. He was just trying to point out the fact that he does help out the arena by participating in it, not just posting here on the forums suggesting what will make it better.
My 2 cents
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http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/4/24/1013733/P38J_1.zip
This is the old one. An undate is in the works.
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Alot of interesting points.
I think Snaphook hit the closest to the "problem" of the AvA.
I never did understand this, and I still don't. In a game about WW2 aerial combat, you'd think the AvA would be the most populated arena. It ought to be. I mean, if you have an interest in history and WW2 and air combat, why would you prefer the mish-mash of planes available in the the MA over an historical matchup?
Remember when everyone was so happy about the big maps coming back in the MA? There were big maps in the AvA way before that. And they look better too.
The problem with the AvA isn't any inherent problem with the setup, maps, planeset, whatever. It's the mindset of the people that pay to play this game. For whatever reason, the MA is where people would rather spend their time. I'm sure someone can figure out why that is- what in the MA makes it more appealing to folks that should have their sensibilities terribly offended by the mixed up planesets.
The MA is Quake with wings. The AvA is at least an attempt at a WW2 Flight Sim.
When/if you guys figure out how to make the AvA popular, I'll happily renew my subscription. Until then, I just don't see the point in flying Quake in the MA, and I don't have the patience to pretend I'm flying in WW2 when there's 2 other people in 500 square miles of map.
I realize I do nothing to help in this post, but I just wanted to express my opinion. I'm pretty sure I've said this exact thing a few times over the years.
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Toonces, did you ever fly FSO? That alone is worth the subscription price.
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And what does my age have to do with anything? That's right, absolutely nothing. You are just jealous that a 22 year old kid has done more for the AvA then you ever will.
Quit hijacking the thread Larry.
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Toonces, did you ever fly FSO? That alone is worth the subscription price.
Quit hijacking the thread Gavagai.
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Quit hijacking the thread Gavagai.
Quit hijacking the thread Jaeger!
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I am disappointed that Oldman used your volunteer work in your defense. That does not bode well.
An arena that is trying to build a following needs ambassadors for the arena not prima donnas parading around trumpeting the sort of stuff you post on this forum and the sort of things I have personally seen you express in the arena.
Oldman seems to be backing you and your continued childish behavior. I understand he is grateful for the help but he is missing a major point. He would find lots of help that don't constantly parade a "Hey, look at me" sign if he made polite and positive behavior a pre-condition of being a part of the AvA team.
If I were the player running the AvA there would be no excuses for your behavior and would distance myself as far as possible from you unless you decided to become someone who worked for what was best for the AvA and the game instead of narrow self interest.
But it seems that your work in the arena excuses your behavior instead of making that work pointless. So I'm beginning to think I'm wasting my time here. I know with a certainty that if your behavior is acceptable as part of the AvA team then I could not and would not be part of that team.
There are some people who enjoy being unpleasant to others, who find pleasure in being disruptive or abusive. The AvA staff, for quite some time now, has uniformly muted, and occasionally ejected, those people. There are others who are serious about their hobbies and will sometimes be abrasive in their effort to preserve or improve those hobbies (Shane, Lazs, Larry all come to mind in this connection). The difference is the intent, and generally it doesn't require a psychology degree to figure out which group someone belongs to.
The old-time regulars who stuck with the AvA through its years of drought generally assume that others will follow the "code of conduct" that evolved during those years. They are wrong to try to enforce this on anyone (and of course they have no power to enforce anything), but their assumption is no different from those of many MA oldtimers, who frequently complain about HOs, hording, ganging, picking and so forth in the MAs. If you had stopped into the AvA a year ago you would have found the Channel 200 talk to be far more abusive than it is now (and far less abusive than the typical Channel 200 talk in the MA). People are trying to stifle their impulse to control others' behavior. Sometimes they slip, but things have improved a lot.
All of which is to say that constructive people are welcomed, warts and all. Larry doesn't control the arena any more than I do (well...maybe a bit less...). If I see him going off on Channel 200 - which I actually have not seen in quite awhile - he stops as soon as I ask him to. We can all live with that. I don't perceive that he is working for his narrow self-interest at all. If you spend some more time in the arena, I'll bet that you'll agree with me.
- oldman
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.....The problem with the AvA isn't any inherent problem with the setup, maps, planeset, whatever. It's the mindset of the people that pay to play this game. For whatever reason, the MA is where people would rather spend their time. I'm sure someone can figure out why that is- what in the MA makes it more appealing to folks that should have their sensibilities terribly offended by the mixed up planesets.
The MA is Quake with wings. The AvA is at least an attempt at a WW2 Flight Sim......
I think you do have it figured out. Somewhere I thought I read that Hitech was not promoting the game as a flight sim, but was more interested in creating an environment promoting dogfights, but don't quote me :D
Couldn't have said it better Quake with wings. Don't get me wrong, I think that Hitech did the right thing, because he has to know what pays the bills.
I think that it is up to those of us who historical interests binds us together to put our best effort into bringing more like minded folks into the fold.
Toonces, we are not quite there with daytime numbers yet but there has been a steady improvement over the last few months, that I do attribute to some hard work by those involved in remedying perceived drawbacks of the arena.
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And what does my age have to do with anything? That's right, absolutely nothing. You are just jealous that a 22 year old kid has done more for the AvA then you ever will.
And done more to run off alot of players from the AvA.
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And done more to run off alot of players from the AvA.
another country heard from! mostly they left because they get out-flown, out-manuevered, and out-gunned by one squad in particular.
everyone just hates losing to the same guys. so they leave, so be it. god forbid we should try to get better rather then run and cry.
the idea is to get people back in the arena, my jaded friend, not point out short comings. there are plenty of those to go around with everyone, myself included. So lets keep it positive.
maybe skuzzy should think about locking up this thread, as its becoming a bashing thread..........again, as usual!
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Well i went back into the ava the other night and it was the same old insults on 200 from members from a certain squadron. It doesn't bother me personally, i even got chatting to them afterwards on 200 and i don't harbour any ill will towards them. It just conveys an extremely negative image of the ava- i hadn't played many months and it was the same old nonsense that turned me away. When there's only 20 people in an arena you are are going to shoot down/be shot down by the same people- recieving insults from a handful of people gets tiresome. It's not the content, it's the attitude- i can understand why people would leave.
That said the fights i had in the AvA were fun, regardless if it was a 1v1, 1vmany or manyvmany. My only other concern was the fact that at one stage i flew for ~15 mins and found no-one because everyone was in gv's, despite 20 people online. Gv's just aren't my cup of tea.
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Thats it Thrila. Its the higher than thou attitudes that a certain group in the AvA has that runs players off.
Then whenever someone says anything about it they come up with the same excuse, "they left because they get out-flown, out-manuevered, and out-gunned by one squad in particular".
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another country heard from! mostly they left because they get out-flown, out-manuevered, and out-gunned by one squad in particular.
everyone just hates losing to the same guys. so they leave, so be it. god forbid we should try to get better rather then run and cry.
the idea is to get people back in the arena, my jaded friend, not point out short comings. there are plenty of those to go around with everyone, myself included. So lets keep it positive.
maybe skuzzy should think about locking up this thread, as its becoming a bashing thread..........again, as usual!
Rethink the "who's bashing who". I haven't and a couple others haven't.
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I'll take exception to this part of that post since you insist on being a child. You were one of the folks who kept insisting that there was some sort of altitude limit in the AvA when I flew in there regularly a while back. You were part of the problem. Maybe you have since stopped doing that. I hope so. Because it keeps people out of the arena.
And you keep trying to say that I was the one causing the problem. It is a plain and simple attempt to deflect blame from yourself.
Just because you do volunteer work for the AvA it does not give you extra privileges of any sort. In fact, it demands a higher standard of behavior, not a lower standard.
I am disappointed that Oldman used your volunteer work in your defense. That does not bode well.
An arena that is trying to build a following needs ambassadors for the arena not prima donnas parading around trumpeting the sort of stuff you post on this forum and the sort of things I have personally seen you express in the arena.
Oldman seems to be backing you and your continued childish behavior. I understand he is grateful for the help but he is missing a major point. He would find lots of help that don't constantly parade a "Hey, look at me" sign if he made polite and positive behavior a pre-condition of being a part of the AvA team.
If I were the player running the AvA there would be no excuses for your behavior and would distance myself as far as possible from you unless you decided to become someone who worked for what was best for the AvA and the game instead of narrow self interest.
But it seems that your work in the arena excuses your behavior instead of making that work pointless. So I'm beginning to think I'm wasting my time here. I know with a certainty that if your behavior is acceptable as part of the AvA team then I could not and would not be part of that team.
Dawger, first off, Larry has been here for a long time. Rarely does he have a negative impact in anything he does in the AVA. He has no more bad days than anyone else. In fact, I can say with some certainty that Larry has always been a stout promoter of the AVA ( even back when it was more appropriately called the CT).
The very things that you disagree with to some extent has been born in and by the CT of old. We had a code (unwritten, but nonetheless). It is hard to let that go. There was alot of good in it really. It promoted fights.
Now, as for Oldman....Oldman has been and will continue to be the backbone of the AVA. He has always championed the idea and cause for this arena. I think you need to suck back ten yards and punt on that one.
If you have some constructive ideas, get them out there. Cease the finger poking and pointing. You left the AVA of your own accord. I refuse to believe a 22 year old young man could drive you from the arena.
Now, if you have some ideas to put out,lease do. The AVA is after all an arena made for the players and run by the players.
We have had enough bashing here. How about helping us build instead?
Just my humble $.02
RTR
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Well guess what... when that certain group isn't in there, no one else is either. Catch 22, take it or leave it but stop whining.
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Well guess what... when that certain group isn't in there, no one else is either.
funny how that works.......... :huh
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another country heard from! mostly they left because they get out-flown, out-manuevered, and out-gunned by one squad in particular.
everyone just hates losing to the same guys. so they leave, so be it. god forbid we should try to get better rather then run and cry.
the idea is to get people back in the arena, my jaded friend, not point out short comings. there are plenty of those to go around with everyone, myself included. So lets keep it positive.
maybe skuzzy should think about locking up this thread, as its becoming a bashing thread..........again, as usual!
Again this highlights the true underlying issues and problem. Its conduct not combat that rests at the heart of the matter. Gather enough people consistently and most of the other issues will sort them selfs out if overall player conduct is reasonable. It so happens that Oldman and I ran into each other in the MWA over the weekend. Absolutely a wonderful fight (he got a well earned pelt at the end :salute) that met every measure of a "good fight" in any arena and other then plane matchup (38 vs F4U) would have fit well in the AvA.
The "smack talk" exists else where as well. My 1st sortie was "up north" since that was where the red was. After a few kills things had devolved to me and 4 red guys. As I looked for the exit sign cobia sprayed my 38 as I looked to egress, wasnt really a HO as much as a your coming my way frontal hosing from a bit of alt during a reverse to chase me. Of course a 1 ping PW is the norm there isnt it :furious :)
I end up on the deck with a spit 109 cobias A-20 and a pony in tow....have enough E to stretched the spitty out far enough for him to lose interest. At this point both cobia and the 109 pop up high so I apologize on 200 for scooting do to PW....as I get done typing I need to break into the pony, which I reverse and kill....so of course both the A-20 and 109 have dove back in (just waiting on pony to force things). I reverse the 109 and would have popped him if I hadnet blacked out. Recover when I come to and evade/reverse the 109 again....to get picked by cobia.
So I take off from field we were running to figuring they'll give me a few k coming out of ack....nope. 109 dives in right as I clear the runway so I reverse back thru and cobia dives in as soon as I clear other side. I easily evade his pass and light him up on climb out but dont kill him. Avoid his second pass but dont have the E to finish him and he hammers me on the reverse....
Since I'm not going to get a reasonable fight I go elsewhere...and of course get the taunts on 200 (not aimed at me specifically) about the "2 plane horde". The simple reality that while both cobia and elfy (109) are good sticks they to have devolved it seems. In the MA's you just move on and leave them to whine...in the AvA you log. I'd have upped till they ran out of ammo or I won if they'd given me any real chance for a decent fight. This isnt just an AvA issue but its an issue the AvA cant overcome as easily.
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It would be nice if you guys identified your squad in your sig so that people would know that there might be reason for bias when you defend each other. :lol
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Again this highlights the true underlying issues and problem. Its conduct not combat that rests at the heart of the matter. Gather enough people consistently and most of the other issues will sort them selfs out if overall player conduct is reasonable. It so happens that Oldman and I ran into each other in the MWA over the weekend. Absolutely a wonderful fight (he got a well earned pelt at the end :salute) that met every measure of a "good fight" in any arena and other then plane matchup (38 vs F4U) would have fit well in the AvA.
The "smack talk" exists else where as well. My 1st sortie was "up north" since that was where the red was. After a few kills things had devolved to me and 4 red guys. As I looked for the exit sign cobia sprayed my 38 as I looked to egress, wasnt really a HO as much as a your coming my way frontal hosing from a bit of alt during a reverse to chase me. Of course a 1 ping PW is the norm there isnt it :furious :)
I end up on the deck with a spit 109 cobias A-20 and a pony in tow....have enough E to stretched the spitty out far enough for him to lose interest. At this point both cobia and the 109 pop up high so I apologize on 200 for scooting do to PW....as I get done typing I need to break into the pony, which I reverse and kill....so of course both the A-20 and 109 have dove back in (just waiting on pony to force things). I reverse the 109 and would have popped him if I hadnet blacked out. Recover when I come to and evade/reverse the 109 again....to get picked by cobia.
So I take off from field we were running to figuring they'll give me a few k coming out of ack....nope. 109 dives in right as I clear the runway so I reverse back thru and cobia dives in as soon as I clear other side. I easily evade his pass and light him up on climb out but dont kill him. Avoid his second pass but dont have the E to finish him and he hammers me on the reverse....
Since I'm not going to get a reasonable fight I go elsewhere...and of course get the taunts on 200 (not aimed at me specifically) about the "2 plane horde". The simple reality that while both cobia and elfy (109) are good sticks they to have devolved it seems. In the MA's you just move on and leave them to whine...in the AvA you log. I'd have upped till they ran out of ammo or I won if they'd given me any real chance for a decent fight. This isnt just an AvA issue but its an issue the AvA cant overcome as easily.
are you talking the midwar or the AVA?? im not quite sure what you're getting at??
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Well guess what... when that certain group isn't in there, no one else is either. Catch 22, take it or leave it but stop whining.
i'm not asking for a certain group to stop playing in the AVA, i'm asking for some people to try and have some self control. I had been in the AvA for 30 mins and i received remarks on 200 from 2 members of jg54, it felt like that the attitudes in the AvA were just the same as i left it.
For gavagai :)-
MA squad: the few
AVA squad: thrila's thrilas
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Well guess what... when that certain group isn't in there, no one else is either. Catch 22, take it or leave it but stop whining.
Knock it off already. The "mob mentality" is not needed. Jaeger and Larry are capable of dealing with what was said earlier. Regardless of that, the flames were fanned.
Stay on track and try to provide solutions, if you cannot, leave it be.
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It so happens that Oldman and I ran into each other in the MWA over the weekend. Absolutely a wonderful fight (he got a well earned pelt at the end :salute) that met every measure of a "good fight" in any arena and other then plane matchup (38 vs F4U) would have fit well in the AvA.
...I...er...I think you were probably engaged with Oldman22 (the guy from Jackson, MS)....I mean, I don't remember being in MW over the weekend...and I THINK that for sure I'd remember getting a kill on you, because I don't believe I ever have....
...I'm getting so old, so fast...
But I like that people are starting to comment about AvA things we can fix.
- oldman
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Those events were in the MWA. My point is conduct specific. When I fly I normally pick the low side and head toward the biggest patch of red. In this case that happened to be up in the A19 area on the map (MWA) at the time. After the sorties described above I could either
a) up from A35(?){think thats the base across the water I was egressing toward and where I upped the 2nd time}.
b) up from A19 or another base trying to go find them
c) find another fight
I would have given an upper a bit of alt to work with, not just dove in as soon as the guy got clear of the ack bubble. By choosing not to give me any reasonable chance for a good (not fair) fight they gave me a choice. Then just a few moments later they are on 200 taunting/whining because they don't have a victim/target. To me this goes back to everything I've tried to talk about in these threads. You need to be willing to nurture the fight. If they give me a chance to up then maybe someone else sees action and ups also and a little furball evolves.
Instead for whatever reason they chose another course of action. Now either I need to up away from "the action" and find them or look for a new fight or just decide to continue to up from that field. Its a fine line between giving a guy a chance and shutting down the only game in town you have. I elected to go elsewhere and found some good fights. The quality of the opposing pilots didn't factor in to the decision loop, only they're conduct....
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...I...er...I think you were probably engaged with Oldman22 (the guy from Jackson, MS)....I mean, I don't remember being in MW over the weekend...and I THINK that for sure I'd remember getting a kill on you, because I don't believe I ever have....
...I'm getting so old, so fast...
But I like that people are starting to comment about AvA things we can fix.
- oldman
Whoops, was oldman22 I think:)
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ok so lets play this in a nutshell:
1. everyone hates JG54
2. nobody flies AVA because of JG54
3. JG54's smacktalk drives away everyone from the AVA
4. JG54's conduct drives people away
5. Larry's posts keep people out of the AVA
6. JG54 has no right to post on the BBS because everyone hates them and the posts drive everyone out of the AVA
7. limited planesets drive people away
8. smacktalk on 200 drive people away
9. its my $14.95, ill do what i want! if i want to dive in on a 1V1 i will!-- drives people away
10. not enough players in the arena drives people away
11. the mainstay players of the AVA are delusional by thinking theres nothing wrong with the AVA
12. the mainstay players of the AVA have a need to individually stamp approval of the AVA and that drives players away
13. the AVA is not for skill-less tards so it drives people away. they cant fly the way they want to.
14. nobody responds to you when you do come in. feels like a clique, so that drives players away
15. nothing functionally has changed and that drives people away
16. reading the posts in the AVA forum drives people away
17. read the posts in the AVA and you instantly know where the problem is and that drives people away
18. XXXXXX knows more of whats wrong with the AVA then anyone that flies it, but wont give the answer and that drives people away
19. the name of the AVA drives people away
20. the axis always has the Advantage and that drives people away
21. the people saying theres nothing wrong with the AVA "are" the problem with the AVA and that drives people away
22. Larry posting in the AVA forum is what drives people away (yes thats twice)
23. Larry is a 22 year old kid and that drives people out of the AVA
24. Oldman defending larry keeps people out of the AVA
25. the mindset of the people that pay to play this game is driving people out of the AVA
26. Larry had done more to run people off out of the AVA then anyone and thats driving people out of the AVA
27. Everyone is in GV's and that drives people away from the AVA
28. higher than thou attitudes that a certain group in the AvA has that runs players off and that drives people out of the AVA
29. when that certain group isn't in there, no one else is either and thats driving people out of the AVA
hows that?? pretty close??
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Far from it, with me. I just would like to see more "integrity" from the ENTIRE Aces High Community. Without it, we have nothing to build on.
"A tree is only as strong as it's roots."
Humble, Larry, cap, and others. Let's cease the finger pointing and see if there are things we can do, to improve the situation. It seems we're moving one step forward, only to take two steps back.
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Throw my two cents in here, I go in for the fight in terms of plane match up, I find it refreshing to not be hoed or ganged by 16's and lgays, there just something about that appeals to me, I like the feeling I get when I'm tooling along and see a lone P38 or such and then it's gametime, I think to myself "ok Tunes, it's one guy on his own, you can do it" sometimes I win and sometimes I'm back in the tower, but it's great fun and I personally think the fights are harder in there, there's some good sticks in there and I like to fly against them, In the MA you don't really get that chance as it's mostly one turn then a dive to friendlies or ack, hoping the bottom feeders lurking at 1k in the usual uber rides will get you.
I've never seen the likes of thrilla, Deldalos, Cavalier, shuffler etc run to the ack, those boys will take you on and fight you and that's what keeps me going in, if I am able to get a kill on one of thosew guys then that to me is better than landing 6/7 in the MA. Because I earned it. I don't get involved in the politics or anything else, I just like to fight and learn, There really is a stack of good sticks that fly in there and I would recommend anyone looking to learn to come in and fight, forget the politics and egos, just fight and fight and you'll improve in there after a few fights what would take you days and days in the MA. On a personal note, I've never once been trashed by anyone when shot down by them or indeed when I shot them down, instead I've had things like "good fight" 'nice try" etc So anyone thinking of going in just think about the great fights you'll get, sometimes they're over fast (Just don't underestimate a con flying on his own, they're on there own for a reason, they want to kill you! :)) and don't assume your higher that you've got easy pickings either! So whatever your preference is (Luftwaffe keeping the Allied horde back from the Fatherland, or the USAAF Captain on a bombing run, or maybe an IJN Pilot fresh out of training and looking to avenge a Tokyo raid) you will have lots of fun and you will learn quick or die!
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To the best of my knowledge I'm not picking on any person or squad. We all have our moments good and bad. What I'm trying to articulate is the effect of "conduct" on game play. Not posturing or stuff on text but actual in game interaction. Using the scenario above I was a "perfect" foil for cobia and elfy. I'm not going to automatically haul out a hurricane and start a vertical HO war or up a 190 or tiffie from another base to "hunt them down". I'd have gladly continued to roll a 38 or similiar bird, I was just looking for some semblance of fair play...gee if you guys are at 8k why not let me climb up from the field to 4k before you attack?
So when they didn't chose a reasonable course of action I went elsewhere and left em whining. In the AvA people just leave. The issue is simple, if you don't nurture the fight you won't have one. Go back to Midway, the fight was right over the atoll and the team with the lesser plane set was out numbered and fighting literally in their own ack at times. Thats an observation of fact, not an attack on any one person or squad. The logs show 3 interactions with Larry in that time frame in a zeke. Thats not an attack, it is simply a factual observation that at that time in that place these were the circumstances.
No question Larry is a good stick and I'm sure some of the others are as well. when I started in AW the simple truth is that the really good sticks couldn't afford to smack the new guys around without any regard for their feelings. No baby seals meant no baby seal clubbing, you needed to keep em interested a bit. "Training" wasn't offered with the intent you helped the other guy get good, it was so he didn't get so frustrated he quit. If you want to grow the arena you need to nurture the people who show up... just that simple.
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Well guess what... when that certain group isn't in there, no one else is either. Catch 22, take it or leave it but stop whining.
"osceola"?
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"osceola"?
ummm no, he doesn't post on the AH BBS.
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Here's a hint, I'm a political organizer for the Democtratic party feverishly working to take more seats for both the Senate and Congress while the Republicans are asleep at the wheel. If we can cement a definative lead we will ensure President Obama has the support he needs from his party, we all know he has the support of the American people already.
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It's a shame what Storch has become, it's kinda like Gollum.
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Here's a hint, I'm a political organizer for the Democtratic party feverishly working to take more seats for both the Senate and Congress while the Republicans are asleep at the wheel. If we can cement a definative lead we will ensure President Obama has the support he needs from his party, we all know he has the support of the American people already.
(http://www.vlasic.com/camb_header.jpg)
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Hey Humble,
I get what you're saying. And I feel the same way.
You're at the root of the problem.
But, again, I have no solutions to offer.
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Hey Humble,
I get what you're saying. And I feel the same way.
You're at the root of the problem.
But, again, I have no solutions to offer.
There is no solution possible as long as the outcome is more important then the contest. What drove "the code" was an underlying appreciation of air combat. While winning was important, the overall artistry of the fight was important. It was common for guys to try "pilot stuff" and a lot of commentary and comraderie came from the AAR on text....you got a lot of "I saw this and was thinking.... followed by "I saw that and was wondering, so I did....". To be honest I only really get that anymore when I'm "dueling" Bat or some of the other old hands any more.
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ok so lets play this in a nutshell:
1. everyone hates JG54
2. nobody flies AVA because of JG54
3. JG54's smacktalk drives away everyone from the AVA
4. JG54's conduct drives people away
5. Larry's posts keep people out of the AVA
6. JG54 has no right to post on the BBS because everyone hates them and the posts drive everyone out of the AVA
7. limited planesets drive people away
8. smacktalk on 200 drive people away
9. its my $14.95, ill do what i want! if i want to dive in on a 1V1 i will!-- drives people away
10. not enough players in the arena drives people away
11. the mainstay players of the AVA are delusional by thinking theres nothing wrong with the AVA
12. the mainstay players of the AVA have a need to individually stamp approval of the AVA and that drives players away
13. the AVA is not for skill-less tards so it drives people away. they cant fly the way they want to.
14. nobody responds to you when you do come in. feels like a clique, so that drives players away
15. nothing functionally has changed and that drives people away
16. reading the posts in the AVA forum drives people away
17. read the posts in the AVA and you instantly know where the problem is and that drives people away
18. XXXXXX knows more of whats wrong with the AVA then anyone that flies it, but wont give the answer and that drives people away
19. the name of the AVA drives people away
20. the axis always has the Advantage and that drives people away
21. the people saying theres nothing wrong with the AVA "are" the problem with the AVA and that drives people away
22. Larry posting in the AVA forum is what drives people away (yes thats twice)
23. Larry is a 22 year old kid and that drives people out of the AVA
24. Oldman defending larry keeps people out of the AVA
25. the mindset of the people that pay to play this game is driving people out of the AVA
26. Larry had done more to run people off out of the AVA then anyone and thats driving people out of the AVA
27. Everyone is in GV's and that drives people away from the AVA
28. higher than thou attitudes that a certain group in the AvA has that runs players off and that drives people out of the AVA
29. when that certain group isn't in there, no one else is either and thats driving people out of the AVA
hows that?? pretty close??
You forgot 30: AvA is JG 54's Sandbox. Don't like it? Leave!
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Well, if this game made any sense, the AvA and MA would be switched around.
What I mean, is that the AvA would be the 400 players a night swirling crazy combat-fest the MA is now, and the MA would be where folks got together and fought an elite few in a more fairplay/dueling/good fight atmosphere.
Think about it. People log on, go to LW MA, and then spend the rest of the night doing whatever it is they do for whatever reason they do it. It has no structure.
What makes more sense is for folks to log onto the AvA, where there are clearly defined (historical?) sides, and there is at least a goal to strive for. You have some sort of victory conditions that could be as simple as winning a map, but could just as easily have some sort of historical context. The fights should be inherently better because the planesets are balanced to some degree. You can have your squad and fly together in your squad plane of choice, and fight other like-minded individuals doing the same thing- but in a historically correct matchup.
The MA is where you go to furball with your friends in whatever planes give you the best "fight".
But that's not it. Instead everyone wants to fly their quake arena, while a handful of people duke it out in the historical portion of the sim; except they fly the historical AvA arena like a dueling Quake arena.
Just my opinion, and since I don't have an account, my opinion is probably worth even less than the typical whiner.
But, AvA is actually what I'm looking for. Not MA Quake. I'd have been quite happy with the MA mentality in the AvA to be perfectly honest with you. It's the popularity of the hamster wheel of the MA that I just couldn't figure out.
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What drove "the code" was an underlying appreciation of air combat. While winning was important, the overall artistry of the fight was important.
And there you have it. Fortunately, there is no War Win, at least, in AvA; and that's probably why "the code" still exists here in some people's minds. It's something that may be worth preserving.
That said, THERE IS NO CODE IN THE AvA. People might tell you otherwise, you might think they have a point - or not - but you are free to do as you wish.
- oldman
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Personally, I threw the code out when I realized what other people were saying. Kinda like a Lightbulb went off. Which was a few months ago, also finally seeing what dawger is really saying is starting to make sense to me. I cant really put out what Im trying to say at the moment but when it does I'll post again.
Fud
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It's a shame what Storch has become, it's kinda like Gollum.
once and for all, storch no longer come in here. he is gone, banned for life. anything he see's from in here, ive copied and pasted to the jg54 forum. he still comes to the jg54 forum. if you'd like to chat with him, go sign up and say hi!
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Why so few people?
Seems like too many people remember bad blood from the past, and come back only to look for confirmation they should stay away rather than looking to have a good time.
I have a friend who does this with cars. Had a bad experience with a Ford once. Any time he decides he wants a car, he first goes to a Ford dealer. Kid you not. Test drives one or several, specifically so he can find something he doesn't like about it. Then he goes elsewhere to buy something else. After making his choice, he can keep talking about how much better his chosen car is than any Ford.
Who knows . . . If he had an open mind, and could let bygones be bygones, he might actually find a Ford he would like.
But he doesn't, so we know he won't.
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once and for all, storch no longer come in here. he is gone, banned for life. anything he see's from in here, ive copied and pasted to the jg54 forum. he still comes to the jg54 forum. if you'd like to chat with him, go sign up and say hi!
The lady doth protest too much, methinks.
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<yawn>
every couple of months we get this same thread with the same replies.
hard to believe its all from grown men.
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Now here's a funny unsolicited comment from another thread:
...play in the AvA last I knew they only allow the lower performance planes in there.
That's it. Turn the AvA into a limited planset version of the DA pond. :lol
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That's it. Turn the AvA into a limited planset version of the DA pond. :lol
Or just make it the DA pond. Enable only the perk planes and GVs for free. Or maybe make it so the perks you earn in the AvA can be used in the MAs. Then the AvA will be full 24/7. It will be nothing but the scum of AH but hey numbers are numbers right? Make it a 'what if' setup. What if the only pilots were 13 year old kids with a HALO mentality.
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<yawn>
every couple of months we get this same thread with the same replies.
hard to believe its all from grown men.
Hah! Think about what you just wrote, Jersey boy.
- oldman
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Here's a hint, I'm a political organizer for the Democtratic party feverishly working to take more seats for both the Senate and Congress while the Republicans are asleep at the wheel. If we can cement a definative lead we will ensure President Obama has the support he needs from his party, we all know he has the support of the American people already.
lazs? :huh
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Hah! Think about what you just wrote, Jersey boy.
- oldman
Is it not true?
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Is it not true?
You mean is it not true that all these grown men are playing a computer game about WWII airplanes flying around shooting at each other?
Well....yes...it's true.
- oldman
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Yup... oldman has "jumped the shark"...
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indeed
(http://blogs.pcworld.com/staffblog/archives/JumpTheShark.jpg)
weeeeee!
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How many squads go in there on a regular basis? If the squads went in there on a regular basis with the objective on swatting down the opposition then you would have more people in there.
What happens though is you get a sprinking of squad members and a few one man bands. Why not get the squads in there and let's see what happens? JG54 fly as a squad in there so why not others? A lot of these childish posts would go away if that happened. The so called Red Barons of the MA would probably get their prettythang handed to them once or twice by Thrilla, Snaphook, VWE, Larry et al, that would make them want to try harder and then they would comeback for more.
Can we somehow encourage more Squads as part of their Squadnight? Their would be comparable crates on both sides and it would come down to the guy behind the joystick. So just to summarize, too many individuals and not enough squads in there leads to low numbers and no cohesion, more squads in there fighting as a unit leads to more fights and greater numbers.
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How many squads go in there on a regular basis? If the squads went in there on a regular basis with the objective on swatting down the opposition then you would have more people in there.
What happens though is you get a sprinking of squad members and a few one man bands. Why not get the squads in there and let's see what happens? JG54 fly as a squad in there so why not others? A lot of these childish posts would go away if that happened. The so called Red Barons of the MA would probably get their prettythang handed to them once or twice by Thrilla, Snaphook, VWE, Larry et al, that would make them want to try harder and then they would comeback for more.
Can we somehow encourage more Squads as part of their Squadnight? Their would be comparable crates on both sides and it would come down to the guy behind the joystick. So just to summarize, too many individuals and not enough squads in there leads to low numbers and no cohesion, more squads in there fighting as a unit leads to more fights and greater numbers.
iTunes, you just hit that nail pretty squarely.
Want numbers in the AVA?
Encourage squads, not individuals. What happens when you only have one regular squad flying in the AVA?
You get that one squad seeming to dominate, not because they are all aimbot / superjock / 'toon fighter pilots, but because they fly "together".
The individuals who come in and don't even have a wingy become the baby seals.
Encourage squad type set ups and get some structured mini type scenarios (ala Larry's wednesday night missions, Fuds ideas etc etc), and you may draw entire squads.
The AVA has very good potential to be a popular arena, that could grow into something quite unlike the current MA's. Kinda like scenarios or FSO except you don't need to register and it is available to all.
RTR
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chilli had some idea's he wanted to try, maybe someone should get his input!!