Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Custom Skins => Topic started by: Greebo on July 19, 2009, 04:37:25 PM
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A few weeks ago Skyrat kindly sent me the book Fly for Your Life by Larry Forrester. This is the biography of Wing Commander Robert Stanford Tuck. Tuck joined the RAF before the war and was soon recognised as an exceptional pilot and one of the best shots in the RAF. He was also a very lucky one, surviving two pre-war mid air collisions. He was one of the first few RAF pilots chosen to fly the then brand new Spitfire.
Tuck first saw combat over Dunkirk flying for 92 Squadron, and over the next two years scored 27 confirmed kills, was awarded the DSO, three DFCs, an American DFC and rose to Wing Commander. An extremely aggressive pilot he was shot down a number of times. His famous luck held out though. He often just managed to coax an overheating Merlin back over friendly territory before it expired and once was saved from a bullet wound by a coin in his pocket.
He commanded 92 Squadron and 257 Squadron and later led the Duxford and Biggin Hill wings. As part of an RAF delegation to the USA he advised the USAAF on combat tactics and also test flew US fighters like the P-43 and P-47.
On 28 January 1942 while on a low level Rhubarb mission he was shot down by flak and spent the next few years in POW camps. In 1945 he and a Polish officer escaped and made their way to through to the Soviet Army, Tuck's ability to speak Russian saving their life. Here they were made to fight as infantry until they escaped and made their way to the British Embassy in Moscow and then back to England.
The book is a great read, written in the fifties it has a different slant on the war than more modern books. I have lent it to my brother, but once he has finished with it I will post it to another AH player who want to read it. PM me if you are interested.
In light of this, I've decided to do a Tuck skin. Well, that's what I do.... :)
This is the aircraft he flew while commanding the Biggin Hill wing and the one he was flying when he was shot down and captured. As a Wing Commander Tuck's aircraft carried his initials.
(http://www.gfg06.dial.pipex.com/screenshots1/RST_Spit_SC1.jpg)
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One of the first Spit driver biographies I had in my collection. A good read. We used to have his Hurricane skinned too if I remember right.
Nice work on the Spit Vb!
There are a bunch of photos of that bird after it was downed.
Now how bout his Spit I's? :)
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Nice skin once again Greebo!
I found a worn paperback version of the book few summers ago from a used book stand at a market for a 50 cents I think :) I don't have it with me right now but the style/age of the cover was something like this...
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/f6/c8/0a70225b9da0aa16e45be010.L._AA240_.jpg)
...but the text was in yellow and there is Spitfire pictured on ground on the cover of my print. Unfortunately I haven't read it yet.
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Wow! How long did he have to fight as infantry before they got to the embassy? Talk about pushing your luck to the limits...
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The flight he was downed on, he'd managed to put a 20mm down the barrel of the quad 40 that got him, peeling back one of the barrels. There is much reference to "Tuck's Luck"
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The book isn't too clear about how long Tuck was forced to fight as infantry. There is mention of interrogations, changing regiments and a two day battle with an SS unit, so I'd say weeks.
The flak regiment gunners was all set to lynch Tuck for shooting up their mates. Then they discovered he'd shot that 20mm shell up one of the quad's gun barrels, they thought it was a great joke and their mood changed instantly. Another example of Tuck's luck.
I looked at doing Tuck's Spit Mk I. However I've not done a Mk I template and its not a trivial job to modify the Mk Vb template. I'd have to redo the wing panel lines and rivets and alter the oil cooler. Also I could not find any photos of that Spit, just a few plastic kits.
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Nice skin.
Those rhubarbs were an absolute travesty, a lot of good pilots were lost over france for no gain. I've always kept an eye out for 'fly for your life', it's a book i've always wanted to read.
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amazing thing is his 27 confirmed victories were scored in less than 2 years, as he spent more time as a PoW than in combat.
had he not been captured and his luck held out he would have most likely beaten Johnson as the highest scoring allied ETO ace.
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Also I could not find any photos of that Spit, just a few plastic kits.
(http://www.spitfiresite.com/photos/historic/uploaded_images/spitfire-site-65sqn-1939-708446.jpg)
"1939 No. 65 Squadron carried the FZ code letters only before the outbreak of war. The nearest aircraft marked as FZ-L, K9906 was also the first to be delivered to the unit in May 1939. It was probably flown here by Sqn/Ldr Robert Stanford Tuck"
"the fourth Spitfire, FZ-A is K9903, and is being flown by F/Lt Gordon Olive"
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Classic shot. You can see evidence of the pre-war fuselage roundel change - Yellow ring over painted and red and blue portions expanded outward and inward respectively to obliterate the white portion. A very interesting and confusing period for RAF markings, so many changes over a short time.
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Nice Skin! Now we just need a JE-J Spitfire Mk IX or XIV so I can fly with it! :rock
:salute Greebo
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You mean like this?
(http://www.netaces.org/skins/spit16/skin5.jpg)
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You mean like this?
(http://www.netaces.org/skins/spit16/skin5.jpg)
That's the 16, need a IX!
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He doesn't want the Jr. version. He wants the big boy version.
wrongway
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He doesn't want the Jr. version. He wants the big boy version.
wrongway
Nice Skin! Now we just need a JE-J Spitfire Mk IX or XIV so I can fly with it! :rock
:salute Greebo
Isn't that an oxymoron?
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The 65 Squadron Spitfire photo is a pre-war shot. I'd have thought those markings would have been changed to the standard RAF yellow-bordered roundels after the war started.
Tuck was transferred to 92 Squadron on May 1st 1940 and flew his combat sortie on May 23rd, probably in aircraft N3249 squadron code GR-P. Shortly after that 92 Squadron's codes were changed from "GR" to "QJ" and Tuck flew aircraft QJ-B. As far as I know there are no photos of any of Tuck's 1940 Spits although apparently there is one of him standing by another 92 Squadron Spit.
There's some good info at this site: http://www.stanfordtuck.com/ (http://www.stanfordtuck.com/)
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This is the one I think you refer to. Tuck and Alan Wright of 92 near their Spits. First 3 operational Spits to land in France, May 16, 1940 when they escorted Churchill's airliner to Paris.
Interesting paint scheme with the fuselage roundels as they are etc.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Tuck.jpg)
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Yes, it is a bit different to the norm. I've found another reference which says that underneath of the left and right wings were painted black and white respectively but the lower front and rear fuselage was left in aluminium. Sky undersides were not introduced on RAF aircraft until a month later in June 1940. I think I've got enough info now to give this scheme a go.
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Great pic!
/geek hat ON
The fuselage roundels are a result of Air Ministry Signal X485, dated May 1, 1940 which called for a yellow ring to be added to the existing red/white/blue fuselage roundels. You can see in the pic how everything looks a bit crowded on the fuselage, in order to keep from obliterating the letter codes the yellow ring was made to overlap the blue ring a bit as the original red/white/blue roundel was 35" in diameter and didn't leave a lot of room to work with. Resulted in a very non-standard looking marking. I still don't know how the red center ended up being 5" wide, the standard ratio was 1:3:5(:7 if yellow added) so the red center should have been 7" dia on the original 35" red/white/blue roundel.
The original intent of the black and white ID marking was to have the entire aircraft split down the middle from nose to tail, but aircraft already in service with aluminum dope undersides sometimes only had the wings themselves painted as Greebo has said, and the underside of the H. stab also remained aluminum.
There was also a huge amount of variation after 'Sky' became the standard underside colour, mostly due to shortages of the new paint. Squadrons were forced to use substitute colours to cover the black and white and the colour chosen depended on how the Air Ministry instructions were interpreted. 'Sky' was referred to as a 'duck egg blue green' colour and since there were at least four colours in use that could have been described that way (Sky Blue, Duck Egg Blue, Duck Egg Green, Sky Grey, etc) there were a lot of interesting paint combinations.
I did an early 92 Sqn Spit like the ones above, although my subject (P9372/GR-G) hadn't had the fin stripes or the yellow added to the fuse roundel yet.
http://www.netaces.org/skins/spit1/spit1.htm
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I'd have thought those markings would have been changed to the standard RAF yellow-bordered roundels after the war started.
The original fuselage markings (and upper wing markings)for Spitfires were the standard yellow-bordered ones, 35" diameter on the fuselage and 56" diameter on the upper wings. After the Munich crisis in '38 they were converted in the field to the 'night fighter' style low vis red/blue markings by obliterating the yellow ring and expanding the red outwards and blue inwards until they met. This in turn obliterated the white and resulted in a red/blue roundel 25" in diameter on the fuse and 40" diameter on the upper wings, the red being 2/5ths the diameter of the entire marking. This is now colloquially referred to as a 'Type B' roundel (BTW, the RAF didn't actually start naming its markings different types until the later versions with the skinnier yellow and white portions, and they were referred to as 'Type i/ii/iii' and 'fin marking'. The 'type A/B/C/A1/C1' stuff was probably invented by modelers or artists post war, it isn't official). By the beginning of 1940 the red/white/blue fuselage roundels reappeared and the outer yellow ring reappeared after May 1st 1940. The upper wing marking remained red/blue until the beginning of 1945.
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That's the 16, need a IX!
I thought the reason it was put on a Spit16 in AH was because the real thing was a later model LF.IX and its performance better matched the Spit16 (which is really a LF.IXe model)?
So in short, it fits better on the 16, was the reason it's there instead of the 9. That's what I thought, anyways.
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That's what I thought, plus the fact that since 'JE-J Jr.' had an E wing the game's MK XVI gives it the proper armament too.
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I'm guessing Jocko has this in his Spitfire library based on his previous post, but Greebo, I'm wondering if you do.?
James Goulding,
Supermarine Spitfire, RAF Northern Europe 1936-45 : #1 Camouflage & Markings
Well worth it for what is really a little book but full of info on Spit markings.
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=1141812324&searchurl=bi%3D0%26bx%3Doff%26ds%3D30%26kn%3DCamouflage%2Band%2BMarkings%252C%2BSpitfire%26sortby%3D2%26sts%3Dt%26x%3D66%26y%3D11
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That's not a book I've got yet, thanks for the link Guppy.
Interesting stuff on the RAF markings. I didn't know much about the pre-BoB stuff, as I haven't done a skin from this period until now.
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I thought the reason it was put on a Spit16 in AH was because the real thing was a later model LF.IX and its performance better matched the Spit16 (which is really a LF.IXe model)?
So in short, it fits better on the 16, was the reason it's there instead of the 9. That's what I thought, anyways.
That is correct. I don't know that JEJ ever had a Spitfire F.Mk IX as his mount.
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WARNING: The following post may contain content unsuitable for those who are not RAF Camo and Markings nerds...
Yup, got that book somewhere, written back in the early 70s I believe... but also have two more recently written books that are highly recommended:
On Target Special No.2,
Britain Alone: The camouflage and markings of British Military aircraft
June 1940 to December 1941,
Paul Lucas, Illustrated by Jon Freeman, Series Editor Neil Robinson,
The Aviation Workshop Publications Ltd. October 2003
ISBN 1-904643-06-X
Scale Aircraft Monographs. #2
"The Battle for Britain, RAF; May to December 1940"
Author: Paul Lucas
Series Editor Neil Robinson
Guideline Publications, Ltd. July 2000
ISBN 0-9539040-0-8
Paul Lucas not only spent huge amounts of time researching in museums and archives, he also worked with 'aircraft archeologists' studying wrecks and seeing what was actually done in the field regardless of what the boffin regulations said. Colour photos of examples are included in the second book I listed. Well worth the money. Great section on paint colours and Federal Standard substitutes although it must be stressed that most of the FS numbers given are 'closest' equivalents as the majority of these colours don't exist any more on either the Federal or British Standards lists.
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RS-T in the German graveyard you can see the kill marks way foward of the windscreen.
(http://home.12move.nl/stanfordtuck/rs-tyard.jpg)
crash site
(http://www.lesavions.net/./warbirds3945/spit/spitfire%20Mk%20Vb%20no%20305%20-%20avion%20de%20Robert%20Stanford%20Tuck.jpg)
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The flight he was downed on, he'd managed to put a 20mm down the barrel of the quad 40 that got him, peeling back one of the barrels. There is much reference to "Tuck's Luck"
Wow :lol That and everything else..
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(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/f6/c8/0a70225b9da0aa16e45be010.L._AA240_.jpg)
That was the cover on the copy I had. I lent it to my mother and I never saw it again. She said she liked the book though.