Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Nr_RaVeN on March 04, 2010, 07:25:44 PM
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I wish for an additional arena -No icons- Axis v Allies Rotating maps with balance Plane sets No F3.
I wish there was an Axis V allies arena that used no icons at all were one had to id aircraft by knowledge of the solute.
Good effective communication would be a necessity.
ACM would be far more effective and realistic.
The opponent couldn't see you coming from 5 klks out,and good wing man tactics would be absolutely necessary.
For those purest I think it would create a fantastic arena.
With terrain switching from well balance plane sets, early war, mid war, and late war ,map rotations. with equal distribution of theaters of operations, Ie Pacific theater AC V pacific theater Ac. no mixing 109 and fw with zeros ect. Basically historically accurate map rotations with correct plane sets for that theater of operation.with only 2 sides two country's that's it.
So many are so caught up in the graphs and performance of air craft and skin accuracy ect, yet there is no arena that is correctly balance.
This style arena would be the perfect hunting ground.
:salute RaVe
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No icons would not make ACM more 'effective or realistic'.
We also already have an arena like the one you're asking for...it even has the same name of the arena you're asking for. The only difference is the existing AvA has a short range icon. Why not suggest a week setup with icons turned off?
ack-ack
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It would absolutely make ACM's more effective with out icons showing your position. They are unrealistic and kills the immersion .
I didn't realise that the plane sets were balanced in there. I got it mixed up.... Right ..No Icons in there then.
what do you mean by a week set up?
Try it for a week?
?...Why don't more fly that arena its always empty. Seems like the best one out of the bunch.
. :salute
RaVe
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Actually, the icons are there to compensate for the fact that the game's resolution can't match what the human eye can see. Planes in the games are only pixel-sized dots at ranges where the type and markings would be clearly visible to the human eye in real life.
Although I WOULD suggest the caveat of icons not being visible on aircraft that are viewed against the ground.
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Actually, the icons are there to compensate for the fact that the game's resolution can't match what the human eye can see. Planes in the games are only pixel-sized dots at ranges where the type and markings would be clearly visible to the human eye in real life.
This has already been tried, with enemy icons off and friendly icons at 3k, on an off week of FSO, with an attendence of 100+ people. I observed;
1)Everyone loved it, neither on country channel nor 200 did I hear any complaining about not being able to see or anything (except on the BBS from people who weren't there, of course)
2)It was very easy to identify aircraft at long distance despite the lack of icons
3)Fighting was.... Soooooo much more fun.
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It would absolutely make ACM's more effective with out icons showing your position. They are unrealistic and kills the immersion .
How would no icons make ACM more effective? A High Yo-Yo is still a High Yo-Yo regardless if icons are on or off and the maneuver is no more effective with icons off than it is with icons on. Basically, you're not going to see a change in ACM.
I didn't realise that the plane sets were balanced in there. I got it mixed up.... Right ..No Icons in there then.
what do you mean by a week set up?
Try it for a week?
I believe the AvA staff rotate "mini-scenarios" on a weekly basis. Contact one with your idea and see if it can be hosted during one of the weekly rotations.
?...Why don't more fly that arena its always empty. Seems like the best one out of the bunch.
. :salute
RaVe
AvA isn't very popular for a myriad of reasons, hard to pin point any one real reason as most will cite multiple reasons.
ack-ack
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I wish for an additional arena -No icons- Axis v Allies Rotating maps with balance Plane sets No F3.
I wish there was an Axis V allies arena that used no icons at all were one had to id aircraft by knowledge of the solute.
Good effective communication would be a necessity.
ACM would be far more effective and realistic.
The opponent couldn't see you coming from 5 klks out,and good wing man tactics would be absolutely necessary.
For those purest I think it would create a fantastic arena.
With terrain switching from well balance plane sets, early war, mid war, and late war ,map rotations. with equal distribution of theaters of operations, Ie Pacific theater AC V pacific theater Ac. no mixing 109 and fw with zeros ect. Basically historically accurate map rotations with correct plane sets for that theater of operation.with only 2 sides two country's that's it.
So many are so caught up in the graphs and performance of air craft and skin accuracy ect, yet there is no arena that is correctly balance.
This style arena would be the perfect hunting ground.
:salute RaVe
Finally, a convert !!!!
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This has already been tried, with enemy icons off and friendly icons at 3k, on an off week of FSO, with an attendence of 100+ people. I observed;
1)Everyone loved it, neither on country channel nor 200 did I hear any complaining about not being able to see or anything (except on the BBS from people who weren't there, of course)
2)It was very easy to identify aircraft at long distance despite the lack of icons
3)Fighting was.... Soooooo much more fun.
the combat challenge you are talking about was awesome, loved it, should be more just like it. daddog did a great job of it. One a week please.
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How would no icons make ACM more effective? A High Yo-Yo is still a High Yo-Yo regardless if icons are on or off and the maneuver is no more effective with icons off than it is with icons on. Basically, you're not going to see a change in ACM.
"Loose sight loose fight" no Icon "CRUTCH" to help locate the opponent. A lag roll becomes extra deadly ...or skirting under the nose if you initiate the moves and your opponent cant follow you or know were your Ac will be your on top.
It adds to the effectiveness of the ACM to use blind spots ect w/o the aid of glowing Icons .. split S away when out numbered lots of reasons. Ever flown No icon sims? You Here me if you have. If not its hard to understand unless you experience it.
~S~ RaVe :salute
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I have always said this.
The atmos would be alot better.
Is it a friend? is it a high eny or low eny aircraft?. And yes it would behard to see your opponent, also with completely redundant icons. You would not be able to tell who a friend or an enemy is in a furball.
In short. AWESOME.
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No icons = simulating pilots who are legally blind.
Have fun.
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No icons = simulating pilots who are legally blind.
Have fun.
I must be legally blind then :O
Is there some application I need?
This is very distressing, I never knew. :(
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No icons = simulating pilots who are legally blind.
Not to mention it rewards the guy with the bigger monitor, and it absolutely caters to the guy with more than 1 monitor. I don't consider those individuals wanting the lack of icons any different than the people telling Hitech that the lack of minute engine control made his game worthless.
I've been very vocal about the 'no icon' events, I refuse to take part until quality VR headsets become the standard in PC gaming. When that happens, sign me up.
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I must be legally blind then :O
Is there some application I need?
This is very distressing, I never knew. :(
You don't know what you are talking about. The range at which things are identifiable in AH are far shorter than they are in reality. The range at which, for example, you can read the letter codes on a fighter are far shorter in AH than they are in reality. In fact, they are so much shorter than a person with such limited vision would be denied their drivers license because they would be unable to read road signs in time to act on them at highway speeds.
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Actually, the icons are there to compensate for the fact that the game's resolution can't match what the human eye can see. Planes in the games are only pixel-sized dots at ranges where the type and markings would be clearly visible to the human eye in real life.
Although I WOULD suggest the caveat of icons not being visible on aircraft that are viewed against the ground.
Saxman, when was the last time you clearly saw the markings on even a jumbo jet from 18,000 feet?...how about 15,000 feet?...12,000 feet maybe? Everyone in AH must have more than perfect vision if they're able to determine anything more than plane type on a 50 foot long fighter from more than 2 miles away...that means you should be able read the license plate on a car at 1/2 a mile without a telescopic device. Now I am truly amazed...
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You don't know what you are talking about. The range at which things are identifiable in AH are far shorter than they are in reality. The range at which, for example, you can read the letter codes on a fighter are far shorter in AH than they are in reality. In fact, they are so much shorter than a person with such limited vision would be denied their drivers license because they would be unable to read road signs in time to act on them at highway speeds.
Yea and that's how it is in other sims too but it isn't a problem just a learning curve thing. my monitor is not big I can do it just fine. Its a question of spotting the movement then sneaking in tactically an when close enough to id the AC type you set up for the shot knowing your convergence range by the wing tip to wing tip of the enemy aircraft in your gun site as im sure you know thats what those lines are on it for. Depending on your gun site lets say your lining up a FW 190 if its wing tip to wing tip in your gun sitethen again depending on your gun site, its between 200- 250 out from you if your convergence is set at 250 blast away. All this stuff comes into play with no icons its in tight down and dirty. :cheers:
Lots of missunderstanding arise from lack of actual experience..Lots of pepole think WWI planes are boring because they fly slow (yet have never flown WWI sims) any that have know that those SLOW aircraft give the fastest most exiting turn n burn E management dogfights there are. :x
With No Icons your hunting not picking and fishing in a barell. :aok
After some practice you can tell by the silhouette from 1k out. Just because your not up to the challenge is no reason to bash someone that is.
It would be a set up only for those that choose to fly in it if you cant hang in there don't use it no need to get so defensive or up set just don't fly it.
It would be an arena for a guys that were into that style that's all. Its not for everyone. Obviously you you have never flown no icon multilayer dog fight sims if you have you would understand. No offence intended. To each there own. :joystick:
You don't need a large screen, you look for movement, you constantly check your six and you fly with a wing man in formation who covers your blind spots wile you cover his..the reason for formation flying anyway. :airplane:
lets not criticize what we have not had and first hand experience with. It was just a wish for those that want to do it.
I understand the masses like the easy road but some like the extra challenge and excitement that a server set up like this would offer.
let me say this as well, its not like flying no icons makes one guy a better sim pilot than another, its just a preference thing. Kind of like bait fishing V.S. Fly fishing.
We all can bait fish. But to tie your own fly set up your casting line read the water and then land A nice fish on a flyrod well its just way more fulfilling IMO
:cheers: :salute
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With No Icons your hunting not picking and fishing in a barell. :aok
It would be an arena for a guys that were into that style that's all. Its not for everyone. Obviously you you have never flown no icon multilayer dog fight sims if you have you would understand. No offence intended. To each there own. :joystick:
That leaves about 10 hardcore and 40 part timers...the other 400+ prefer arcade only...that's one reason you see the AvA arena mostly empty...there are threads around where people blame a particular group of people for the lack of people in the AvA when the reality is most only want to fly their super ponyspittempjughog 24/7 then complain about how boring the game is.
Raven, in case you haven't already, watch for the combat challenge events in the FSO forum...the first one was a blast.
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You don't know what you are talking about. The range at which things are identifiable in AH are far shorter than they are in reality. The range at which, for example, you can read the letter codes on a fighter are far shorter in AH than they are in reality. In fact, they are so much shorter than a person with such limited vision would be denied their drivers license because they would be unable to read road signs in time to act on them at highway speeds.
I live next to Harrisburg International Airport and see aircraft of all shapes and sizes fly over me at low altitude constantly. While it's true that it's a little easier to read markings (which don't really matter any way in Aces High...) in real life than what I've experienced in game I have no more problem discerning silhouettes and through that means identifying aircraft in Aces High than I would if I walked out my door and looked a passenger jet flying a couple of thousand feet above my head.
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I live next to Harrisburg International Airport and see aircraft of all shapes and sizes fly over me at low altitude constantly. While it's true that it's a little easier to read markings (which don't really matter any way in Aces High...) in real life than what I've experienced in game I have no more problem discerning silhouettes and through that means identifying aircraft in Aces High than I would if I walked out my door and looked a passenger jet flying a couple of thousand feet above my head.
The markings aren't the only thing that is easier in reality. An aircraft's heading and attitude can be discerned at much greater range in reality than they can be in the game.
In addition, what a player on a 1920x1200 28" screen can identify and what a player on a 1024x768 17" screen can identify are very different things.
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Heading (other than toward you/ away from you) and attitude can't be discerned from icons in the first place... You need to use the actual plane for certain things in game no matter what the icon settings are in game...
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<-- Enjoys no icon and limited icon events. I believe it adds more realism than it subtracts in axis vs allies type of scenarios.
Yes no icons is unrealistically difficult to make out aircraft type, distance away, etc; but icons on has it's own unrealistic qualities also. Lose sight? No problem, just throw your head around till the neon sign tells you where the bandit is. Or if your flying 10kft over an enemy camouflaged with the ground, he doesn't stand a chance at staying concealed.
They both have compromises and neither is right or wrong. Understandably, most wouldn't want to spend much time, if any, in a no icon environment. However there are others who enjoy doing just that.
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Not to mention it rewards the guy with the bigger monitor, and it absolutely caters to the guy with more than 1 monitor. I don't consider those individuals wanting the lack of icons any different than the people telling Hitech that the lack of minute engine control made his game worthless.
I've been very vocal about the 'no icon' events, I refuse to take part until quality VR headsets become the standard in PC gaming. When that happens, sign me up.
You and I both know that is not totally true Delirium...I notice that "trainers corps" tag under your handle...if you're not willing to try something more challenging than the base arcade settings, are you sure you should be training other people? Not to say that people shouldn't start with the basics but, for people who have been around longer and come to you for more advanced training I would think pushing them with greater challenges would be more helpful to them than the basic arcade settings. You don't think the player with the full stick/throttle/rudder has an advantage over the simple twisty stick? Don't you think a person who has a $2000+ computer with the best video card money can buy has an advantage over a guy using a 4 yr old computer that has to turn all the eye candy and distance rendering down? A VR headset isn't going to give you any better distance vision than a 22 inch LCD monitor sitting on your desk unless the game has been fully programmed to 3D VR and you have the hardware to support it.
The textures are going to be rendered at whatever level the player sets in the games video settings...the pixels are going to be rendered at whatever density the player sets in the games video settings for resolution...the only people who could possibly experience even a small disadvantage are those silly enough to play on a 15 or 17 inch widescreen laptop...and I hope no one is dumb enough to be playing on a desktop with a 15 or 17 inch widescreen...
One small limitation is that this game renders distant objects in their simplest forms...pixels...the game has the capacity to render objects at 4 miles with more detail than black pixels, but there aren't many of us who can run the full 4 mile setting without drops in frame rates...so we don't have the in game capacity to see as much detail at long distances...but then the icons don't show beyond 6000 yards (18,000 feet) anyway...in special events the icon rendering distance for enemies can be as low as 1000 yards...and I know that even with the lowest of in game graphics settings and enemy icons turned off, it is possible in AH to determine plane type out to 3000 yards (15,000 feet) on a 17 inch LCD monitor.
The only other limitation is our ability to determine distance in the AH environment as easily as we would in real life...not everyone can easily determine distances in real life since it's a matter of perspectives learned through repetition but, in the AH environment it is even more difficult unless you do some things that help your eyes assimilate object detail with distance...I can't speak for anyone else but my optimal shooting distance is 400 yards (1,200 feet)...sometimes I take potshots at longer distances with enemy icons turned on...however, what I have started doing to help myself is turn enemy icons on/off with varying distances and through every view I have set...it's a pain in the butt and makes me an easier target in the MAs but I'm getting more and more accustomed to determining distances without the aid of icons, eventually I will be able to determine approximate distances on enemy targets without any icons because my eyes and brain will have been trained to do so.
You don't know what you are talking about. The range at which things are identifiable in AH are far shorter than they are in reality. The range at which, for example, you can read the letter codes on a fighter are far shorter in AH than they are in reality. In fact, they are so much shorter than a person with such limited vision would be denied their drivers license because they would be unable to read road signs in time to act on them at highway speeds.
You have no idea what you're talking about...I'd really like to know when was the last time you read the letters off the tail section of a 50 foot long airplane that was 3 miles away from you...or even just a mile, 5,280 feet. You must play on a 15 inch laptop.
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Wow... such ignorance spouting the virtues of flying "without icons"....??
You can clearly tell the shape, wing type, engine numbers, tail structure, AND the livery (airline colors) of an airliner flying overhead at 40,000 feet or more.
In AH you don't even get DOTS on planes that far, let alone coherent shapes.
In real life, pilots can see and identify other aircraft up to 10 miles. In AH it's barely possible at 1000 yards.
As for your comment regarding seeing codes and colors being "not important in AH" -- totall bull. How do you tell an enemy aircraft 4 miles out? Perhaps by the color and the sun glinting off of it. The bright white flash of a star-and-bar, or the black cross of a german enemy.
They didn't paint invasion stripes, yellow leading edges, fuselage bands, bright yellow rudders, bright yellow cowlings, and so many other identification markers on planes in WW2 for the fun of it. They did that because you could and would tell who was friend/foe much further out than this game's (or ANY game's) ability can pretend to match.
Anybody saying "no icons" is just as realistic as real life is deluded and ignorant. A dangerous combination, it should never lead to changes in gameplay for those NOT deluded and ignorant.
EDIT: Raven, I don't mean to hijack your request. You have every right to suggest a rotation with this setting. My comments were in response to gyrene, cactus, and motherland's obsession with converting AH to "no icons"...
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You and I both know that is not totally true Delirium...I notice that "trainers corps" tag under your handle...if you're not willing to try something more challenging than the base arcade settings, are you sure you should be training other people?
Nice way to begin the debate, attacking someone like that is hardly a good way to win.
That said, if you don't want icons feel free to turn them off. This game lacks (through current technology, mind you) peripheral vision, lacks a feel for the aircraft you're flying, lacks true 3d viewing of enemy aircraft, and now you want to take away one of the indicators for range? It makes no sense unless you're trying to recreate a 1945 Saburo Sakai with a stye in his last good eye. We are many years away from having enough indicators in the game through true 3D vision or (better yet) physical responses where you can feel the cold on your skin and you can smell the engine/cordite. Here is a great book that really described what the future of flight sim gaming will be like.
http://www.amazon.ca/Net-Force-04-Ultimate-Escape/dp/0425169391
In regards to your initial attack, if you ever want my spot in the Training Corp, let Ghost know.
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Wow... such ignorance spouting the virtues of flying "without icons"....??
You can clearly tell the shape, wing type, engine numbers, tail structure, AND the livery (airline colors) of an airliner flying overhead at 40,000 feet or more.
In AH you don't even get DOTS on planes that far, let alone coherent shapes.
In real life, pilots can see and identify other aircraft up to 10 miles. In AH it's barely possible at 1000 yards.
As for your comment regarding seeing codes and colors being "not important in AH" -- totall bull. How do you tell an enemy aircraft 4 miles out? Perhaps by the color and the sun glinting off of it. The bright white flash of a star-and-bar, or the black cross of a german enemy.
They didn't paint invasion stripes, yellow leading edges, fuselage bands, bright yellow rudders, bright yellow cowlings, and so many other identification markers on planes in WW2 for the fun of it. They did that because you could and would tell who was friend/foe much further out than this game's (or ANY game's) ability can pretend to match.
Anybody saying "no icons" is just as realistic as real life is deluded and ignorant. A dangerous combination, it should never lead to changes in gameplay for those NOT deluded and ignorant.
EDIT: Raven, I don't mean to hijack your request. You have every right to suggest a rotation with this setting. My comments were in response to gyrene, cactus, and motherland's obsession with converting AH to "no icons"...
You are so full of BS I don't even know where to begin. You're second sentence is absolute BS because at 40,000 feet that jumbo jet is just a small silver object with a big contrail...and if you can see even the paint job on an object 40,000 feet away without a telescope or binoculars, you should be able to clearly read a 7 digit license plate on a car from a mile away...even with perfect vision, that is not physically possible.
If you had any idea what you were talking about, someone might take you seriously.
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No icons would not make ACM more 'effective or realistic'.
We also already have an arena like the one you're asking for...it even has the same name of the arena you're asking for. The only difference is the existing AvA has a short range icon. Why not suggest a week setup with icons turned off?
ack-ack
:aok
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Nice way to begin the debate, attacking someone like that is hardly a good way to win.
That said, if you don't want icons feel free to turn them off. This game lacks (through current technology, mind you) peripheral vision, lacks a feel for the aircraft you're flying, lacks true 3d viewing of enemy aircraft, and now you want to take away one of the indicators for range? It makes no sense unless you're trying to recreate a 1945 Saburo Sakai with a stye in his last good eye. We are many years away from having enough indicators in the game through true 3D vision or (better yet) physical responses where you can feel the cold on your skin and you can smell the engine/cordite. Here is a great book that really described what the future of flight sim gaming will be like.
http://www.amazon.ca/Net-Force-04-Ultimate-Escape/dp/0425169391
In regards to your initial attack, if you ever want my spot in the Training Corp, let Ghost know.
Hardly a personal attack Delirium...just a question...if you place yourself in a position above others in any manner where you are a point of reference, guidance or simple counsel, your standards become theirs and your public announcements of your opinion become the opinions of others who may look to you...if you as a higher than average member are not willing to do something the less than average members are willing to do...then, well you get where I'm going with this.
I agree there are some limitations within the game...full peripheral vision is limited to a smaller area than real life but like everything else in AH, learning how to utilize what's available can be done...the 3D viewing of other aircraft is also limited but it is close depending on the distance and it can be enhanced with the use of the built in vision enhancing tools...again, it's all based on perspective, if you choose to limit yourself to looking at nothing but the limitations then that is all you will see...I happen to see only a few limitations that cannot be overcome and they don't have anything to do with turning enemy icons off.
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That leaves about 10 hardcore and 40 part timers...the other 400+ prefer arcade only...that's one reason you see the AvA arena mostly empty...there are threads around where people blame a particular group of people for the lack of people in the AvA when the reality is most only want to fly their super ponyspittempjughog 24/7 then complain about how boring the game is.
Raven, in case you haven't already, watch for the combat challenge events in the FSO forum...the first one was a blast.
I understand this is your opinion and I hope you'll understand that you're basing your opinion on an assumption more than actual knowledge of why the AVA is always empty. There's quite a few people flying in the LWA now that never flew anywhere but the CT or AVA for years in fact back to 2001 and before. A few years ago you couldn't drag me or many of these other guys into the Main Arenas. Flying my super ponyspittempjughog 24/7 has nothing to do with it. In fact most of my squadmates fly 1942/43 era birds. Plus there's just as many taterlaunchingHO190uberjetjoc ks flying Luftwaffe birds in the LWA as people flying else .
My experience was..The arena ceased to be fun for the majority of what once was a fairly healthy community mainly do to behavior more than aircraft preference. As more left and fewer flew the process fed itself and the place died on the vine. In my opinion it could be saved with the right ideas and little positive sponsoring. The OP would be well advised to run his idea by some of the folks on the AVA staff along with guys with similar preferences as yourself. I for one would like to see the AVA make a comeback and there are a few folks trying to do just that. Insulting the people that don't regularly fly there or see things your way on the subject of reality isn't going to help build you much positive feedback on your efforts. Also your theory of the AHII community doesn't explain the popularity of Special Events where you are forced to fly a designated bird instead of your favorite. There is interest for realism and historic setups and settings regardless of how empty the AVA is at the moment.
I really don't have a dog in the icon debate, but I have to disagree with your statement on why the AVA is empty. It has less to do with people refusing to fly less than their favorite aircraft and more to do with the place needing a formula for fun again after it became such a disappointment for so many of it's longtime supporters. I'd like to see of you guys that seem to have a lot of energy for the sim like yourself and the OP to get with the AVA staff and run some of this stuff by them. I think you'll find most of them very accommodating to new ideas.
<S>
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IIRC normal vision is modeled in AH when you are zoomed in all the way. When you are zoomed out all the way,at 145 degree view angle, you have slightly more than normal field of view for binocular vision. Peripheral field of view goes further.
So to see normal detail you need to be fully zoomed in and if you try flying like that you'll see that the resulting narrow field of view is a problem. If you try quickly switching zoom off and full on you'll find it's very easy to miss the object you want to see. In real life you have the AH fully zoomed in view and more than the fully zoomed out view at the same time. Icons make up for that. They don't reduce realism, they increase it.
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Wow... such ignorance spouting the virtues of flying "without icons"....??
EDIT: Raven, I don't mean to hijack your request. You have every right to suggest a rotation with this setting. My comments were in response to gyrene, cactus, and motherland's obsession with converting AH to "no icons"...
No worries. Thanks for saying so. I didn't realise this was an ongoing issue in AH. I was just wishing for an arena that players could choose to fly in if they wanted.It wasn't my intention to convert the sim as a whole.
This is the only sim that I fly that uses icons in all servers.
ll the other simis I fly have servers that allow arcade settings like in AH. but still offer No icons servers.
its up to the player were and what style they want to fly in.
The No icon servers are very very populated and generally the better more historically accurate servers.I see far better wingman tactic's and far better use of brevity code ect. in them
The Icon servers are what I call air quake servers, kill stealing shoulershooting silly servers, total immersion killers.
Fortunately in AH the Radio helps allot with com unication as all in rage can communicate, and most decent sticks will ask if your ok or need help insted of flying in to pick your hard work once your have managed to Finlay suck the E out of your opponent.
There are many that simply don't use correct wing man tactics and have the air quake mentality as they can spot there pick from 5k out. zoom in with out covering your six steal a kill and leave your Buttt hanging in the wind, in order to get their kills and see their name in lights.
If any reads my last post in this thread A bit closer it will answere many questions about judging distance ext and how truly possible and enjoying No icons can be.
I fly AH with only friendly icons on and enemy off.
All be it I'm still scraping the rust off from a 4 year absence from the sim. I do just fine locating targets. Its about tracking movement. Theres a reason I use a hawks eye for my avatar.
Again in this sim/game the AC 's DOT can be spotted from a long way off without icons.
its not till I get 900 to 1000k can I tell what AC type it is........... in an axis v allies set up, that's all one needs to decide if its a Friend or foe.
Really its not such a scary thing ,lets face it we fly a cartoon that uses vectors ect. nothing is real about it.
Without icons in a axis v Allies setting the excitement level of the hunt or the suprise from a bounce gets us a bit closer to what the pilot my have experienced.
W/O icons your not getting as many six calls or seeing picking opportunity's fro 5 k out.
if under attack or out numbered, possibly you can manage a split s out of there and disappear onto the deck.
This isn't about reality its about excitement and again until it is experience and a player tries it for a week or so its very difficult to explain to pepole.
Sorry if i created a big stir... It was just a wish for one more arena choice that a group could frequent on a regular basis.
I thought for such a long standing quality sim there would be many who would like the idea as I see so many good sticks around this comunity.
Don't get me wrong I think AH is a great sim I was just looking for one more server CHOICE Not trying to convert the entire place.
~S~ :salute
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AND the livery (airline colors) of an airliner flying overhead at 40,000 feet or more.
:rofl
You're kidding right???
Beside the fact that the bottoms of airliners are predominately white/solidly colored and that when you're looking at something with the light source behind it it's difficult to tell detail in the first place...
How do you tell an enemy aircraft 4 miles out?
By shape, shape, and sometimes even shape.
They didn't paint invasion stripes, yellow leading edges, fuselage bands, bright yellow rudders, bright yellow cowlings, and so many other identification markers on planes in WW2 for the fun of it. They did that because you could and would tell who was friend/foe much further out than this game's (or ANY game's) ability can pretend to match.
Actually the reason the Luftwaffe used so many brightly colored markers is because, especially during the Battle of Britain, even with the human eye's apparent ability to identify a 40 ft long shape at 3 light years away from any angle, Luftwaffe pilots had a tendency to saddle up on friendly aircraft and try to blow them out of the sky... funny how that works...
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I understand this is your opinion and I hope you'll understand that you're basing your opinion on an assumption more than actual knowledge of why the AVA is always empty. There's quite a few people flying in the LWA now that never flew anywhere but the CT or AVA for years in fact back to 2001 and before. A few years ago you couldn't drag me or many of these other guys into the Main Arenas. Flying my super ponyspittempjughog 24/7 has nothing to do with it. In fact most of my squadmates fly 1942/43 era birds. Plus there's just as many taterlaunchingHO190uberjetjoc ks flying Luftwaffe birds in the LWA as people flying else .
My experience was..The arena ceased to be fun for the majority of what once was a fairly healthy community mainly do to behavior more than aircraft preference. As more left and fewer flew the process fed itself and the place died on the vine. In my opinion it could be saved with the right ideas and little positive sponsoring. The OP would be well advised to run his idea by some of the folks on the AVA staff along with guys with similar preferences as yourself. I for one would like to see the AVA make a comeback and there are a few folks trying to do just that. Insulting the people that don't regularly fly there or see things your way on the subject of reality isn't going to help build you much positive feedback on your efforts. Also your theory of the AHII community doesn't explain the popularity of Special Events where you are forced to fly a designated bird instead of your favorite. There is interest for realism and historic setups and settings regardless of how empty the AVA is at the moment.
I really don't have a dog in the icon debate, but I have to disagree with your statement on why the AVA is empty. It has less to do with people refusing to fly less than their favorite aircraft and more to do with the place needing a formula for fun again after it became such a disappointment for so many of it's longtime supporters. I'd like to see of you guys that seem to have a lot of energy for the sim like yourself and the OP to get with the AVA staff and run some of this stuff by them. I think you'll find most of them very accommodating to new ideas.
<S>
Oh come on Shifty...behavior puts the blame on other people...I see "bad behavior" in the LW arenas every single day and yet the EW, MW and AvA stand mostly empty...there is hardly a minute that goes by where someone isn't saying something stupid about someone else on 200...I see supposed "good pilots" doing stuff that they put others down about and it's not "rare occasions" that such things occur...and I've read all the existing forum threads about why the EW, MW and AvA are mostly empty (hours of searching and reading)...obviously behavior has little to actually do with the population of an arena...what I've seen is a lot of the old dogs have gone away for one reason or another and the community as it stands now is different than the one from 2001.
I've been in the AvA and watched people quit because of something as simple as getting HO'd...people get HO'd every few minutes in the LW arenas but that doesn't stop those arenas from being heavily populated...I was in the combat challenge and watched a good number of people quit when they realized there were no enemy icons...I've seen people not participate in the FSO with their squads because they don't like the ride assignments or the settings...it's one excuse or another and they are based on nothing more than childish desires...and that behavior is from people who call themselves adults in real life.
Now this is my "opinion"...It all comes down to choices and if those "pillars of the community" who are publicly refusing to challenge themselves beyond the arcade realm were to choose to at least try instead of coming up with a million reasons for condemning something or someone for not fitting in with perceived personally acceptable ideology...the AvA arena could have a better population than it does in spite of the excuses from the past. Yes, no icons or simply no enemy icons is more of a challenge than having icons on...but just like some of the things built into AH that we learn to compensate for from the day we start playing, if enemy icons were not available at all when we started playing AH, this discussion would not be happening...and people would be upset if someone came along and suggested that enemy icons be incorporated into the game.
They don't reduce realism, they increase it.
Yeah you're right, I see a rainbow of icons with distance indicators over everything I look at in real life...uh huh.
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Gyrene... don't know how much you've flown in the AvA arena... but Shifty's post is pretty accurate as to why the AvA is empty.
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I see a rainbow of icons with distance indicators over everything I look at in real life.
Well you should probably see a doctor about that.
If you want quote part of what I wrote try to keep it in context. If you're unable to understand what I wrote just ask and maybe I can help you.
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Gyrene... don't know how much you've flown in the AvA arena... but Shifty's post is pretty accurate as to why the AvA is empty.
Yes that is probably so but my point was that those "reasons" no long have any bearing considering the changes over the past 10 years...IMO there are too many arenas and not enough people left who are at the level of those who used to frequent the AvA...the planeset and terrains don't exist to give the AvA enough variety to be popular again...and with all the special event functions whatever could be done in the AvA wouldn't be different enough to attract a lot of the people who are currently active in AH. At this point there is no use for even the EW or MW arenas except for a few people to get away from the large numbers of Spit16s and Tempests you can find most nights in the LW arenas.
A well populated AvA would be really nice to come home to after a long day of working, but like everyone else in AH, I'm not jumping on an empty server and waiting on someone to join me...I don't have the time or the patience.
Well you should probably see a doctor about that.
If you want quote part of what I wrote try to keep it in context. If you're unable to understand what I wrote just ask and maybe I can help you.
Nothing to take out of context or misunderstand...you specifically stated that icons increase the realism of AH and you used examples of real life vs AH. In real life, no one has telescopic vision and we sure don't have icons in red and green over objects with distance indicators telling us how far away they are.
IIRC normal vision is modeled in AH when you are zoomed in all the way. When you are zoomed out all the way,at 145 degree view angle, you have slightly more than normal field of view for binocular vision. Peripheral field of view goes further.
So to see normal detail you need to be fully zoomed in and if you try flying like that you'll see that the resulting narrow field of view is a problem. If you try quickly switching zoom off and full on you'll find it's very easy to miss the object you want to see. In real life you have the AH fully zoomed in view and more than the fully zoomed out view at the same time. Icons make up for that. They don't reduce realism, they increase it.
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Oh come on Shifty...behavior puts the blame on other people...I see "bad behavior" in the LW arenas every single day and yet the EW, MW and AvA stand mostly empty...
Actually Gyrene there is a big difference in the effect behavior has on a large community over a small one. The AVA community at it's peak had about 20-50 average a night. Some nights better than others. I'm not saying it ever was or could be as big of a draw as the main arenas. However the more the population of players in AHII, the more likely part of that population would be interested in a more historic or realistic arena.
You're absolutely correct when you say there is bad behavior everyday in the LWA. However the behavior is a small percentage of the population and usually less personal. The AVA suffered a high percentage of bad behavior and bad blood which got to be very personal. The feud between factions became more important than the health of the arena. This is in the fact the main reason for the decline of the AVA. You may choose not to believe it. However since you weren't there at the time you're basing your opinion on speculation not the actual experience of being there.
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Nothing to take out of context or misunderstand...you specifically stated that icons increase the realism of AH and you used examples of real life vs AH. In real life, no one has telescopic vision and we sure don't have icons in red and green over objects with distance indicators telling us how far away they are.
What you missed is that zoomed full in is not telescopic vision, it's normal vision.
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What you missed is that zoomed full in is not telescopic vision, it's normal vision.
Sorry FLS but no it is not...full zoom in AH from the cockpit is telescopic vision...nothing like the process of focal point vision where we look at a distant object and try to focus on it's details without it getting bigger in our vision...you cannot look at an object 100 yards away and make it larger and more defined by focusing on it unless you're wearing some really heavy duty glasses.
(http://airto.hosted.ats.ucla.edu/BMCweb/BMC_BIOS/MarkCohen/David/DCPhotos/ThickGlasses.jpg)
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Sorry Gyrene but FLS is correct sir.
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Wow... such ignorance spouting the virtues of flying "without icons"....??
You can clearly tell the shape, wing type, engine numbers, tail structure, AND the livery (airline colors) of an airliner flying overhead at 40,000 feet or more.
In AH you don't even get DOTS on planes that far, let alone coherent shapes.
In real life, pilots can see and identify other aircraft up to 10 miles. In AH it's barely possible at 1000 yards.
As for your comment regarding seeing codes and colors being "not important in AH" -- totall bull. How do you tell an enemy aircraft 4 miles out? Perhaps by the color and the sun glinting off of it. The bright white flash of a star-and-bar, or the black cross of a german enemy.
They didn't paint invasion stripes, yellow leading edges, fuselage bands, bright yellow rudders, bright yellow cowlings, and so many other identification markers on planes in WW2 for the fun of it. They did that because you could and would tell who was friend/foe much further out than this game's (or ANY game's) ability can pretend to match.
Anybody saying "no icons" is just as realistic as real life is deluded and ignorant. A dangerous combination, it should never lead to changes in gameplay for those NOT deluded and ignorant.
EDIT: Raven, I don't mean to hijack your request. You have every right to suggest a rotation with this setting. My comments were in response to gyrene, cactus, and motherland's obsession with converting AH to "no icons"...
Hmm... don't seem to recall saying "'no icons' is just as realistic as real life" or that AH should convert to no icons. Merely stating both have their own unrealistic qualities and that there are people who enjoy both settings.
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Sorry FLS but no it is not...full zoom in AH from the cockpit is telescopic vision...nothing like the process of focal point vision where we look at a distant object and try to focus on it's details without it getting bigger in our vision...you cannot look at an object 100 yards away and make it larger and more defined by focusing on it unless you're wearing some really heavy duty glasses.
(http://airto.hosted.ats.ucla.edu/BMCweb/BMC_BIOS/MarkCohen/David/DCPhotos/ThickGlasses.jpg)
You are missing the point that visual acuity and field of view cannot be represented on a monitor at the same time. Let's say you have a 22" monitor 2 ft in front of you. Make a 22" frame, hold it 2 ft in front of you and walk around looking at the world. Go to an airport and look at airplanes. You'll notice that your window frame on the world looks like AH fully zoomed in. Once you grasp this point you can consider how to overcome this limitation in a flight simulator.
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So Ghost and FLS you're trying to tell me that you believe full zoom in AH is a better representation of object detail view in real life than the default view is? I agree that the perspective is diminished, like looking at a photo of something you know is a short distance away but in the photo it looks like it's farther away unless you use the proper amount of zoom and a panoramic lens to fully capture exactly what your eyes see...but full zoom in AH is not an accurate depiction either and part of it has to do with the way objects are rendered in AH.
Ok let's take a look in AH...no zoom default view.
(http://i49.tinypic.com/2uf96is.jpg)
Partial zoom (about 1/2)
(http://i48.tinypic.com/25k4doj.jpg)
Full zoom
(http://i45.tinypic.com/fvhiyf.jpg)
Looking at the gunsight alone, without moving your head closer the human eye does not magnify objects...looking at the level of detail rendered on those Lancs with full zoom...I believe the distance shown on the icons is in yards (?)...that would make them about 15,500 feet away...default view is obviously less detail than you would see in real life at that distance but then full zoom is not what you would see in real life either...unless you stuck your face within inches to that gunsight.
*edit* tinypic really messed up the small articles in those pics...
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Full zoom, which is a misleading term for normal perspective, is not the same resolution as real vision, but it's as close as we get in PC simulations. It's a hardware limitation that developers have to work with. We tend to think of the default view as normal vision rather than the "unnaturally distorted for game play reasons" view. Calling the normal perspective view "full zoom" naturally invites the idea that it's a telescopic view.
I'm not posting for or against a no icons arena. I just wanted to point out why icons create a more realistic situational awareness than no icons. That doesn't change the fact that some people may find it more fun to fly without icons, but the argument that no icons is less arcade and more real is simply false.
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Whether full zoom in AH is matched to reality or not is also very dependent on the size of your screen. I seem to recall that it is about 1:1 with reality on a 17" screen, which was the most common size when AH was released.
It should also be noted that your head position in the aircraft matters. In the last shot gyrene posted the pilot's viewpoint is clearly less than two feet from the gun sight.
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In the last shot gyrene posted the pilot's viewpoint is clearly less than two feet from the gun sight.
:D That does look like my nose could have been touching the gunsight doesn't it? Good thing we can't smell things within the AH world... :lol
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I still cant believe some of you really think having Icons is "more" realistic, that is absurd plain and simple, I am gonna quote myself
"Most of the sticks in WW2 that where killed by AtA, NEVER saw there attacker, gee I wonder why that is??? maybe cause they did not have a 40 foot neon sign, that is bright glowing red over there damn plane.
the one that SAW the other first 99.9% of the time won the engagement period.
think about it, they painted the planes to be harder to see IE a dark top, light bottom, so when you saw a con you would position yourself in his blind spot come in and kill him and get away, if the con that is being attacked looks around he will not see the nme approaching due to the planes camo, unless of course he spots him in adverse colors, or light glinting off the nme plane, (which they tried to have NOT happen)
MANY conflicts never happened, because they just flew by each other without ever seeing one another.
if you really believe Icons on is more realistic, then having them off :rolleyes:
obviously the monitor cannot simulate the Human eye, but that is not why "icons on" is implemented, they are on because otherwise it would be a arena full of guys dying without ever seeing the con attacking them, IF they ever even see each other at all."
you guys can "think" icons on is more realistic, but it does not make it so.
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Hence why we have zoom, and Icons, it is to give you the functionality you have in real life. But there is absolutly no way to duplicate real eyeballs in real space on a monitor with out adding information in a different manner than you have in real lift. Hence why we have the items like icons,ranges, and zoom to duplicate the fuctionality you have in real life.
HiTech
Enjoy
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On-the-nose, Bronk. On-the-nose, and from the horse's mouth, no less!
Gyrene is just wrong about everything from the AvA, how vision works, the difference between zoom and "moving your head closer" (into the gunsight? really?) and what icons were for.
For a guy that's only been registered on the forum since mid 2009 he sure is making a lot of absolute statements that are absolutely wrong.
Gyrene, you're absolutely wrong on the AvA. I'm one that loved it for a long time and supported it even as it was devolving into the mess it is now. It NEVER had to do with "the better skilled pilots" being in the AvA -- they were the same average skill as in the LWs. You're absolutely wrong about the reasons icons are in the game, and their function versus the analog eyeballs and capabilities of a human, and you're wrong about many other things including your cracks and insults stating that everybody that uses icons is in arcade mode or too weak/stupid/feeble to "make it" without icons.
P.S. No AH does not have an arcade mode. Shooting your foot off with a shotgun means you're stupid and have to walk around with crutches, not that everybody else is "feeble" or "weak" because they use 2 feet to move around. You want to pretend you're handicapped, turn your own icons off. Don't shoot the feet off of the rest of the world. They put you down for that kind of thing in the real and virtual worlds.
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zoom to duplicate the fuctionality you have in real life.
*Whistles innocently*
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*Whistles innocently*
That's it cut out what you don't like.
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On-the-nose, Bronk. On-the-nose, and from the horse's mouth, no less!
It has been all covered before, just trying to point them in the right direction.
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I know very well why icons are there. I understand that they're there to make up for the human eye. However they do that and so much more that it goes way overboard and kills it. They also just look dorky.
I can identify planes from well outside of 2 miles in game. That's a long freakin' way. Is it a little more difficult than it may be in real life? Sure, a litte... but like I said... having bright neon signs to make up for that deficit is way overkill. I really don't see why icons necessary in an AvA situation.
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I know very well why icons are there. I understand that they're there to make up for the human eye. However they do that and so much more that it goes way overboard and kills it. They also just look dorky.
I can identify planes from well outside of 2 miles in game. I really don't see why they're necessary in an AvA situation.
You have the option to shut them off... I see no problem.
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You have the option to shut them off... I see no problem.
I don't get why you even typed that, you know it's stupid.
The point of no enemy icons is that it changes the dynamic of fighting. One person taking away a silly handicap for himself doesn't...
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I don't get why you even typed that, you know it's stupid.
You are complaining about icons ruining it for you. I'm telling you there is an option to shut them off. What is stupid about that?
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The point of no enemy icons is that it changes the dynamic of fighting. One person taking away a silly handicap for himself doesn't...
So handicapping a guy who has poor display equipment is fair for him how?
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Having a smaller monitor is no more handicapping than having a HOTAS vs a crappy stick or using a mouse, having a twisty vs pedals, or TIR vs hat switch.
In fact come to think of it, since the widescreen update in what, 2.14, a 22" monitor such as mine has a wider FoV but no more 'zoom' in default position than a 1280x1024 monitor which I think goes from 17"-19". So you have to have a pretty big monitor to get any kind of advantage.
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"Most of the sticks in WW2 that where killed by AtA, NEVER saw there attacker, gee I wonder why that is??? maybe cause they did not have a 40 foot neon sign, that is bright glowing red over there damn plane.
I hate that quote because almost every player who uses it grossly misunderstands it, ink being just one more in a long line.
For some reason they seem to think it means Bob was flying along, on cruise settings, straight and level when Franz shot him down and that most pilots who got shot down were shot down in that fashion. It means nothing of the sort. While that scenario did happen on occasion, what the quote refers to is that Bob was in combat, trying to shoot down Hans when Franz, who Bob had not seen pull in on his six, shot Bob down. That happens in AH all the time too.
Motherland,
What resolution do you run at? I run at 1920x1200 and there is no way I can tell the difference between a Spitfire and a Bf109 at two miles in AH.
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1680x1050
No issue at all. I use zoom liberally and constantly, though. It is after all, a mechanism to make up for the lack of fidelity you get over a monitor :)
You begin to pick up on what to look for very quickly once you are immersed in the environment. I noticed very soon on in the Combat Challenge that for whatever reason Spitfires appeared darker and larger than 109's even at very low zoom settings (or none even) so I used this for quick, not-set-in-stone identification and judging of the situation from 3-4k out.
BTW Bronk I have actually messed with the icon colors to make them more 'neutral' and less of an eyesore.
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Just saw this:
In real life, no one has telescopic vision and we sure don't have icons in red and green over objects with distance indicators telling us how far away they are.
You're wrong.
It's called the brain. You don't NEED icons because you look at it and already have your OWN range readout inside your head. You instantly know "it's a football field away" or "it's a block away" or "it's waaaay the hell out there!!"
Your brain instantly can tell distance by whatever standards you grew up with. You HAVE these things all within the time it takes for an electron to fire in your nerve synapses....
Fast as thought it self (which is what it is) you have this information. It's just basic cognitive ability. You're looking at your car to see if you left the window open, you don't need a range readout to see how far it is, you instantly know "it's across the street" or whatever, and instantly see "damn, I left the window down!" while registering everything. If somebody broke your antenna off, you instantly say "wait, something's wrong!" Or if somebody keyed your doors, slashed your tires, or clipped your fender, all of this is processed at the speed of nerves firing inside your brain.
In AH you can't replicate this. Not in any game can you pretend to replicate this. The human brain... So good that technology hasn't been able to replace one yet! :)
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1680x1050
No issue at all. I use zoom liberally and constantly, though. It is after all, a mechanism to make up for the lack of fidelity you get over a monitor :)
I don't have Track IR, so the zoom isn't useful to me unless it is right in front of me, or the small chance it is in the field of view on another HAT angle.
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Having a smaller monitor is no more handicapping than having a crappy stick or using a mouse, having a twisty vs. pedals, or TIR vs hat switch.
In fact come to think of it, since the widescreen update in what, 2.14, a 22" monitor such as mine has a wider FoV but no more 'zoom' in default position than a 1280x1024 monitor which I think goes from 17-19 in.
Really? Try taking on raptor in his mouse controlled 38 and get back to me. If you can't see you cant fight. A guy with a 24" wide screen monitor running hi res pack will have an unfair advantage over a someone with a 19" running 256 when no icons are used. You cannot argue this. Just think of what that will look like when fight starts looping over ground clutter. Who do you think will most likely loose sight of the other first in that situation hmm?
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Really? Try taking on raptor in his mouse controlled 38 and get back to me.
That's my point ;)
running 256
Colors/textures make no difference.
guy with a 24" wide screen monitor running hi res pack will have an unfair advantage over a someone with a 19"
24" from what I understand runs the same 'zoom' as a 19" monitor just at a wider FoV (meaning you just have more 'peripheral' vision nothing is actually bigger in the center of your screen). I think you have to go up to 26" or 32" to actually have more 'zoom' (or maybe the FoV is just wider still I don't know never used AH on a monitor that big).
It USED to not be like this, and it kind of sucked actually because on a widescreen monitor it would cut off the top and bottom of your view because the widest angle the game could render was 90 degrees or whatever, however this was changed in the update that gave us triple head2go support.
I don't have Track IR, so the zoom isn't useful to me unless it is right in front of me, or the small chance it is in the field of view on another HAT angle.
While I've not used a hat switch for a long time I know that I've used zoom constantly ever since I accidentally hit the z button instead of the x button.
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That's my point ;)
Colors/textures make no difference.
Right looping over the ground color and texture wouldn't play into it
24" from what I understand runs the same 'zoom' as a 19" monitor just at a wider FoV (meaning you just have more 'peripheral' vision nothing is actually bigger in the center of your screen). I think you have to go up to 26" or 32" to actually have more 'zoom' (or maybe the FoV is just wider still I don't know never used AH on a monitor that big).
You use zoom in a knife fight? :rolleyes:
While I've not used a hat switch for a long time I know that I've used zoom constantly ever since I accidentally hit the z button instead of the x button.
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Flew with no icons tonight, friendly icons were turned off for a while as well. There was no problem identifying zeros and wildcats. It was quite easy too.
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Right looping over the ground color and texture wouldn't play into it
The silhouettes are only ever a shade of dark grey, so absolutely not. If you could actually see detail, it would play into the person with lower texture resolution, anyway.
You use zoom in a knife fight? rolleyes
When I say 'constantly', I mean it :) Zoom is mapped as the down position on the hat switch my left index finger rests on on my throttle. My middle finger on that hand rests on a roller that controls the degree of zoom. If you want some insight into what high priority I put into it... :)
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Flew with no icons tonight, friendly icons were turned off for a while as well. There was no problem identifying zeros and wildcats. It was quite easy too.
YOUR EXPERIENCE MEANS NOTHING!!
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Just saw this:
You're wrong.
It's called the brain. You don't NEED icons because you look at it and already have your OWN range readout inside your head. You instantly know "it's a football field away" or "it's a block away" or "it's waaaay the hell out there!!"
Your brain instantly can tell distance by whatever standards you grew up with. You HAVE these things all within the time it takes for an electron to fire in your nerve synapses....
Fast as thought it self (which is what it is) you have this information. It's just basic cognitive ability. You're looking at your car to see if you left the window open, you don't need a range readout to see how far it is, you instantly know "it's across the street" or whatever, and instantly see "damn, I left the window down!" while registering everything. If somebody broke your antenna off, you instantly say "wait, something's wrong!" Or if somebody keyed your doors, slashed your tires, or clipped your fender, all of this is processed at the speed of nerves firing inside your brain.
In AH you can't replicate this. Not in any game can you pretend to replicate this. The human brain... So good that technology hasn't been able to replace one yet! :)
Really Krusty? So you're telling me people are born with the ability to determine relative distances without ever being exposed to the views and there is no way possible for someone to learn how to do the same thing in the scaled down 3D environment of AH?
Wow, and here I thought scientific fact was correct... :huh
Determining relative distance is a learned function sir, not part of our genetic makeup...we are not born knowing the difference between 1 inch and 1 yard...nor are we born with the ability to see the difference without being taught through repeated exposure...even with repeated exposure in an average adult, the ability to determine relative distance associated with numbers is limited to approximations, but not exact numbers especially within the 100 yard increments that AH icons display...and a person who has learned to see things in metric measurements won't see distances the same way a person who has learned SAE measurements. In the AH world if a person were to repeatedly subject himself to the viewing of distant objects with and without icons for whatever period of time it takes their brain to memorize the view that person would eventually learn to not only determine relative distance without the need for icons but also to determine what the object is out to around 5000 yards.
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its painfully obvious who has and has not flown with no icons .Your arguments are not based in first hand experience.
if you haven't its so its silly to argue the point. I come to this conclusion because if you have actually given it a chance you would not post the uniformed arguments your presenting.
In any case to each there own, at some point I'm sure in time your view will change.
it took me 12 years of simming before I converted to enjoying the no icon style of game play....
I made the same augments as you did for the use of icons about how they were so necessary... until i tried it and stuck with it.
Now i prefer no icons its all a mater of time and the desire for new challenges. I can tell you this if your are bored with a sim jump into a no icon server and it will be a totally new game. eventually YOU WILL ASSIMILATE :cheers:
Icons are about $ money that's right dollars plain and simple.
this applies to any sim. Icons make it easy and it gets pepole on the hook ,most pepole want to take the path of least resistance if sims were sold with out icon availability there would be far fewer sales bottom line.
don't get me wrong Icons are very important for flight sim.
They are great training tools and with out them I would have probably given up before I learned anything. Yet back then graphics were not close to what they are today.
The icon option is essential we have to have them available for the new guys to learn.
In any event there comes a time when an accomplished simmer needs to cut the icon cord, to challenge ones self, the rewards are well worth the learning curve time.
That's what an arena like this would be geared toward.
Again I'm not trying to convert all of AH just looking for a new option.
This whole realism argument is so silly its a freeking cartoon in the first place,
No icons is about the players experience not reality.
Don't want to do No icons? No problem don't try it.
But if there is a no icon arena available that some may want to try it in... don't dis them for that. freedom of choice is a good thing.
:salute
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If you could actually see detail, it would play into the person with lower texture resolution, anyway.
Yup less detail = more visual cues. :rolleyes:
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Don't want to do No icons? No problem don't try it.
But if there is a no icon arena available that some may want to try it in... don't dis them for that. freedom of choice is a good thing.
:salute
Agreed, but when there is an option for those who don't want icons and you continue to use them... well.....
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Bronk, you and Krusty missed some very important tidbits in your quote of HiTech...as well as what Motherland and I have said repeatedly.
Hence why we have zoom, and Icons, it is to give you the functionality you have in real life. But there is absolutly no way to duplicate real eyeballs in real space on a monitor with out adding information in a different manner than you have in real lift. Hence why we have the items like icons,ranges, and zoom to duplicate the fuctionality you have in real life.
HiTech
The number one tidbit is the zoom function which allows you to adjust your focus on a distant object so you can see more detail...to a limited distance...and in AH that distance is 18,000 feet...and the the further away the object gets the less detail is shown even with the zoom function to the point where all you can see is black pixels arranged in a shape and that distance is roughly 13,000 feet...regardless of monitor size or computer hardware. Ranges are part of the icon information...the icons are added to give everyone the same functionality as an aid to determine relative distances with a readily available point of reference in an environment where known distances are not as easily ascertained as they would be in real life...however, as I stated before, it can be learned. Neither have anything to do with realism.
So handicapping a guy who has poor display equipment is fair for him how?
So, all of us should have the exact same equipment and exact same connections to the servers, or any changes are a handicap...I wonder what Raptor thinks when he uses his mouse?
Really? Try taking on raptor in his mouse controlled 38 and get back to me.
The guy with a poor display has/had the same choices as the rest of us...same as our choices in what joysticks to buy, what computer parts to use...etc...monetary limitations or not.
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No it's "zoom and icons". LOL i love when people are telling me what HT means when I can clearly read it. :lol
Again, if you don't want icons simply turn them off.
I fail to see what the problem is.
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Nr RaVeN,
I have flown with no icons. Chase the dot sucked.
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Nr RaVeN,
I have flown with no icons. Chase the dot sucked.
Yup making timid players even more timid.
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I argue against no icons not because I haven't flown without icons, but because I have.
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Nr RaVeN,
I have flown with no icons. Chase the dot sucked.
You've tried it one time, what was the plane set? I flew in the FSO off week event and tested it in the AvA quite a few times.
YOUR EXPERIENCE MEANS NOTHING!!
I'm hoping thats sarcasm :lol
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You've tried it one time, what was the plane set? I flew in the FSO off week event and tested it in the AvA quite a few times. I'm hoping thats sarcasm :lol
It will not work in the MAs for timidity reasons. People now complain about bombers bailing when you get within icon range. No icon they just bail when they see a dot.... oooooo what fun.
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I have tried it more than once. "Chase the dot." sums up the experience across multiple tries.
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Sorry its not for you . :frown:
Seems like plenty don't see it that way. Been some great posts from those in the AVA recently. :x
like I said to each there own. :cheers:
If you don't like it don't do it. Other than that get out of the way. :bolt:
Why try to prevent it for those that can hang with it? :banana:
[BIG ICON]GUYS THIS WOULD BE A BY CHOICE AREANA, NOT THE MAIN AREANA get that point yet?[BIG ICON]
didn't you read the post? ;)
:salute
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It will not work in the MAs for timidity reasons.
That is the first thing you have said that I won't argue with since it's true...on the other hand as you and Karnak have obviously avoided addressing the question I'll put you on the spot...wouldn't the argument be reversed if AH had been made so that no enemy icons was the default setting and wouldn't you be arguing against turning them on if that were the case?
I have flown with no icons. Chase the dot sucked.
Karnak, you chase the dots anyway...dots in the air more than 6k away and red and green dots on the clipboard...we all chase the dots in one form or another every time we get in the game.
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[BIG ICON]GUYS THIS WOULD BE A BY CHOICE AREANA, NOT THE MAIN AREANA get that point yet?[BIG ICON]
didn't you read the post? ;)
:salute
You have a choice now is what you fail to get. It is about your immersion and not others immersion right? :noid
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Ohh another little tidbit you all might enjoy.
A closer representation of normal vission perception is the default gun zoom. But it leaves you with out any perfial vision.
There is no way to display real vesion in computer graphics, The resolution of a monitor is just not capable of displaying objects as they apear in real life.
Note this was pre spell check. :D
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No one, and I repeat NO ONE is advocating taking icons away from the main arena.
That does not mean that they can not be used in several other venue's.
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It will not work in the MAs for timidity reasons. People now complain about bombers bailing when you get within icon range. No icon they just bail when they see a dot.... oooooo what fun.
I don't think I said MAs, and I don't think anyone said MA either. Nr raven asked for an arena with no icons, not the MA with no icons.
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Ohh look more info.
It never is smaller than in real life.
Near or far makes no differences, it all has to do with view angle.
But what is different is the amount of detail do to pixels on the screen that you can see on the aircraft.
To calc an object size in pixels use the following. Btw did it off top of my head, so hoping the calc is correct.
((Wingspan / DistanceAway) / tan(FOV/2) ) * (ScreenWidth / 2) = Number Of pixels.
So in my 30ft wing & 15ft dist with 90 deg FOV
(30 / 15 * (1024 / 2)) / 1 = 1024 I.E. entire screen
At aprox yards the plane is now 1 pixel across on the scree.
At 1200 yards the plane is only 4 pixels in size, now the problem is you can't see any detail with only 4 pixels on a computer screen.
HiTech
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I don't think I said MAs, and I don't think anyone said MA either. Nr raven asked for an arena with no icons, not the MA with no icons.
And when numbers fail to show in the AvA (cuz the AvA is always packed now)... the next wish will be?
I can see it for FSO and scenarios as it adds a bit of "fog of war" aspect.
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Well i the thing of icon choice. I like the idea of having arena with no enemy icons. I flew in the AvA today for about 4 1/2 hours and I did find it harder, but I do like the idea. It just will take time to get use to not having the icons there. But I'm one person that likes the idea of no enemy icons and even limit the range that you see friendly icons. I just like the challenge of doing it that way the same as the challenge of getting better at GVing and bombing and flying a fighter. It will be just one more thing to learn and get use to doing. I would just like to see a arena with no enemy icons so that I have that choice. That everyone in that arena would be playing the same way. Not just me turning off my icons. I just think it would be fun to have the choice. Plus I like the Idea of AvA, two sides fighting against each other to win. just not to furball and camp. But that is just the way I want to play, not everyone wants to play that way. I really do not care for the arcade type settings. So lets just have another choice on how to play this great game.
aka: Bison
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And when numbers fail to show in the AvA (cuz the AvA is always packed now)... the next wish will be?
I can see it for FSO and scenarios as it adds a bit of "fog of war" aspect.
Actually there were 30 people in the AvA tonight with no enemy icons.
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And when numbers fail to show in the AvA (cuz the AvA is always packed now)... the next wish will be?
I can see it for FSO and scenarios as it adds a bit of "fog of war" aspect.
Numbers in the AvA is a totally different subject.
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I don't think Bronk realizes everything he has quoted from HiTech has been stated already through this thread by a couple of people...especially the last quote concerning the pixels and considering the recent changes in AH to higher level graphics than what was possible in 2005...and those screen shots I posted of bombers at 5500 yards shows a lot more than 4 pixels in all views...but hey, as long as he's having fun.
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Actually there were 30 people in the AvA tonight with no enemy icons.
30 people and one Bubi too many. :D
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Was in AVA tonight got eaten alive......Ill keep trying... I got it handed to me tonight.
But it was the best assss whipping I had lately. Never enjoyed getting shot down so much.
I had no problem with aircraft ID I could see the white on the zeros from well over 800 out plenty of time to maneuver into position. The guys were great with 6 calls. I was out classed by great pilots on the opposing team.The kills I did get were very satisfying.
Very good time :x
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I flew in the AvA today for about 4 1/2 hours and I did find it harder
If the AVA could code it so you could only fly with a keyboard, it would also be harder.
Does not mean that's more realistic, wouldn't you agree?
Harder != "more realistic" -- something the TW folks fail to grasp repeatedly in their designs.
That myopic view of flight simming is what ruins other games.
P.S. For the uninitiated, "!=" means "is NOT equal to"
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Kusty... :salute
Just get your butt in the AVA and have some fun :banana:.... :rock Don't be so GD stubborn..... :neener: you'll live .... You... will... Assimilate.... :cheers:
:salute ;) RaVe :bolt:
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Ack-Ack,
The one difference I noticed with icons off was that the fight was initiated later. Instead of the fight starting at +5k where both parties were planning their attack, people were more hesitant and waited to get up close and personal before they committed to a fight. Of course, this was because they wanted to id the 'con' before engaging.
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For those who missed it there was a successful test in the AvA last night.
30 players showed up and positive comments outweighed negative comments by about 10 to .5
The best combination seemed to be no enemy icons and short range friendly icons
Obviously there is a market for no enemy icon play, and perhaps the AvA is the right place for it.
Sort of fits with the historical immersive flavor the AvA is supposed to have.
Of course there will then be the people who wan't no enemy icons and the ability to fly any plane from any country at any time, but we all make some sacrifices.
To those who say don't try to force no icons on others just because you like it, you have a choice too, one most of you are already making, the other arenas over AvA.
Seriously, how many of the thousands of AvA enthusiasts are going to be driven out of there because of no enemy icons compared to how many will try it because of no enemy icons?
This might really be a good way for the AvA to offer a truly different experience.
I say make AvA the only choice for no enemy icons.
Might as well, as nothing else seems to be drawing many people into that arena.
It's worth a try.
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Good post Jimson...with enough postitive feedback and people playing in the AvA with the no enemy icon settings, it's a good chance that will be a standard setting in there...
Did anyone who played in the AvA notice that there was very little if any HOing going on? Without the enemy icons it's a little more difficult to line guns up head on, and in the MAs it's not uncommon for someone to start firing at 800 out...but with enemy icons off it's easier to have a collision without the distance markers telling you when you should move...by the time you get close enough to consider making the attempt the other guy is moving to avoid the collision and you have to move to prevent him from getting on your six.
Raven, I think Krusty is too close minded to consider the possibility that people can learn to adapt to a scaled down virtual environment and the limitations within by conditioning the brain to associate approximate relative distances between 2 objects without having constant visual aids.
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I hate that quote because almost every player who uses it grossly misunderstands it, ink being just one more in a long line.
For some reason they seem to think it means Bob was flying along, on cruise settings, straight and level when Franz shot him down and that most pilots who got shot down were shot down in that fashion. It means nothing of the sort. While that scenario did happen on occasion, what the quote refers to is that Bob was in combat, trying to shoot down Hans when Franz, who Bob had not seen pull in on his six, shot Bob down. That happens in AH all the time too.
Motherland,
What resolution do you run at? I run at 1920x1200 and there is no way I can tell the difference between a Spitfire and a Bf109 at two miles in AH.
very many of the killz is exactly how you describe it here "For some reason they seem to think it means Bob was flying along, on cruise settings, straight and level when Franz shot him down" except "bob" was not spacing out he was looking every where to try and find the bandit and still got shot down by him, not knowing whence he came from, so if the nme of "Bob" had icons over their planes do you think he would miss them? in other words not see them? or be able to track them? seriously think about it, I am sure many pilots looked right at nme planes and never saw them, due to the planes camo and position,now if they had that giant neon sign over head.... after reading every thing you who say it is more realistic to have them on, it may make up for the distant viewing the monitor cant replicate, BUT once the nme con is say within 600 it is way over kill and provides a unrealistic way of tracking the nme con while doing ACM.
most of the sim flying I have done has been here in AH, I went to the "combat challenge" on the off night of FSO I fly on a 19" wide screen, monitor with a resolution of 1440-900, and I got 15 killz,(my first three sorties i got no killz but then I got warmed up) the most on our side....so much for the "having a small monitor being a issue with no icons" argument.
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This May help .....I'm going to post a gun sight tutorial.
It will show the reason why the hash marks are on the gun sights. This is how one can quickly adapt to a no icon environment.
The short version is that the gunsight hash marks tell you how far away the bad guy is, without the need for Icons.
The hash marks on the gun sights give you the ability to approximate the targets relative distance from your aircraft.
WOW what a crazy idea concept. :x... I just thought the hash marks were on there as decorations ;).....will elaborate in another post as to how it all works for those that might not know how to use them :old:
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LOL...ahem Raven...what about those gunsights that don't have hash marks? :D
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Unfortunately our gunsights don't work properly in the first place so you can't actually do that accurately :(
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Motherland is right... The same gunsight file will display with difference "scaling" sizes on different planes. Even fi you have it set so "hash marks" help (a little) in one plane, they will not translate over to the next. MANY planes have issues like this in-game. Folks have been asking for a fix in the F6F (or was it F4U?) gunsight for years. Not to mention moving your head position in and out changes the relative size of the hash marks against the supposed target.
There's nothing consistent with that setup, and no way of using it to just distances.
That's totally negating the fact that hash marks on gunsights only help with non manuvering planes that hold still while you slowly approach until you're "just" the right distance away. So, yeah, there's that, too.
P.S. Jimson, the very reason the AvA is dying and has been for a long time is that they quash any negative feedback, stick fingers in their ear and go "LA LA LA L ALA I can't hear you" if you have anything to say that isn't exactly what the vocal minority agree upon. So, no, you can't use "AvA feedback" as a guide for success. Not to mention a novel 1-time (or short-run) experience can be fun because it is different, but does not mean it is successful, and above all does NOT mean "realistic" either.
P.P.S. Gyrene, you're ignoring and insulting anybody who posts anything to say you're wrong, so let me put it this way... Historically speaking a HO was a great tool. It was a common tool. It was used as an excellent weapon to use against the japanese planes with lesser armor, as well as used by cannon-armed LW 190s and 109s against US fighters. If the AvA visual accuity was so poor without icons as to preclude the ability to take a HO shot, that tells you you're beyond blind, have been handicapped beyond any historically accurate reasonable levels, and you should re-evaluate things.
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Unfortunately our gunsights don't work properly in the first place so you can't actually do that accurately :(
I know but with no Icons it gets you in the ballpark and that's all you need you cant rely 100% but in the ball park will get you on target and more kills.
I know if an AC is wing tip to wing tip in my sight he is 200-250 out if his ac is half that he is approximately 600 and so on it gives me what I need to move in for the kill.
I'm sure lots have seen this but its always nice to have as a review again it gets you in the ball park the rest is up to your skill set. Its not an exact science but it works for me.
This was written by Andy Bush in his Sim HQ article
Using the Gunsight To Determine Range
Regardless of the design of the sight that you like to use, it has lines or curves that you can use to estimate range. In its most simple form, this consists of flying behind a target and comparing the size of the target to markings on the sight. These markings represent how large a target of a known size will appear at various ranges. Can we do this with our simulation gunsights? In most cases where the sim has range cues, the answer is yes. Here's how.
In AH, we can go to the offline area and fly behind one of the drones at our desired convergence range. Film this using the recorder function (Alt+R). Then play back the film and stop the film when at your convergence range. Observe the relationship of the wingspan of the drone to your sight. We will compare the size of the sight features to the target wingspan.
You have two ways to do this. One way is to use the standard forward view (F1) and then use the zoom (Z ) feature to expand the view. Note the relative size of your sight feature to the drone wingspan. Here is what the default gunsight looks like:
With the default sight, you can see that the P-51 drone wingspan appears to be about half again as wide as the gap between the horizontal bars of the sight when we are at the 300 yard point. The wingspan of the P-51 is representative of a typical WW2 fighter wingspan. If you use this relative target size as an example of what a 300 yard range looks like when compared to the default sight, you won’t be far off regardless of whatever type of target you have. And, no matter what sim you fly, this technique remains valid...as long as you can determine range by some means, you can use the sight as a range indicator.
A second method is a bit more complicated...but easier to use. The idea is to customize the sight such that markings on the sight match the target size at your convergence range. The design of the markings should be chosen to make this size matching as easy as possible. The actual procedures for this technique will be discussed at the end of this article. Here is a typical example:
In either case, you have a sight that tells you what the target should look like at your convergence range. This type of ranging is known as stadiametric ranging, and while the procedure is a bit more complicated in real life, this technique works well in Aces High.
Good! Now we have found a way to solve the first problem of range. Now we move on to the second problem...how do we get our gun into the target’s plane of motion?
here the linkhttp://www.simhq.com/_air/air_031a.html (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_031a.html)
NOW this again is to get you in the ball park it works just fine It helps me toss taters too... lets not break out the graphs.
Good Movie of range and Sight Here take a peek (http://www.darts-page.com/movies/Range_and_Convergence.zip)
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P.P.S. Gyrene, you're ignoring and insulting anybody who posts anything to say you're wrong, so let me put it this way... Historically speaking a HO was a great tool. It was a common tool. It was used as an excellent weapon to use against the japanese planes with lesser armor, as well as used by cannon-armed LW 190s and 109s against US fighters. If the AvA visual accuity was so poor without icons as to preclude the ability to take a HO shot, that tells you you're beyond blind, have been handicapped beyond any historically accurate reasonable levels, and you should re-evaluate things.
LOL...Krusty now you're grasping at straws...I never said the visual acuity was that bad...everything you need to enhance your view to the point of being useful without extremes exists in AH, but with the lack of visual cues found in the icons people weren't comfortable with taking chances they would normally take with the icons feeding them distance information...try not jumping to conclusions next time.
And it is common knowledge that although useful in some instances, HO attacks against fighters was not a "common tool" for the average pilot due to the higher probability of collision...and the use of the term "head on attack" meant any attack where both aircraft were moving towards each but not exactly nose to nose.
Now, after I have specifically addressed you personally throughout most of your attempts to make yourself out to be of higher intellect than I, and with you ignoring the very content as well as context of what has been said against your rantings...don't say I am ignoring anyone as that is a complete falsehood.
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Geez, this BBS is a friggin meat grinder.
P.S. Jimson, the very reason the AvA is dying and has been for a long time is that they quash any negative feedback, stick fingers in their ear and go "LA LA LA L ALA I can't hear you" if you have anything to say that isn't exactly what the vocal minority agree upon.
Well, that would be something I'm unaware of.
and above all does NOT mean "realistic" either.
Guess it's in the eye of the beholder, whether simulated vision that is less than human acuity is more or less realistic than big red icons.
My question would be why would you care if they tried it in AvA?
Sounds like you aren't much interested in flying there anyway and I'm not suggesting they make it the standard in any other arena.
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Well what has kept me out of the AvA for years was a group of people who were it seems constantly trying to tell others how to fly/fight. Even if it wasn't directed to me, that was a huge immersion killer. Sucked the fun right out of it.
Last night I spent about an 1.5 hours in there with the pacific enemy icons off setup and had a blast.
I sucked at it, but I had a blast!
Didn't see anything other than salutes, a few apologies, and friendly banter.
It TOTALLY ROCKED!
So, expect to see me regularly as long as the icons stay off and the mood stays upbeat.
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P.S. Jimson, the very reason the AvA is dying and has been for a long time is that they quash any negative feedback, stick fingers in their ear and go "LA LA LA L ALA I can't hear you" if you have anything to say that isn't exactly what the vocal minority agree upon. So, no, you can't use "AvA feedback" as a guide for success. Not to mention a novel 1-time (or short-run) experience can be fun because it is different, but does not mean it is successful, and above all does NOT mean "realistic" either.
And there you have it from Krustypidiea.
Jimson, take what you know is working and what people are enjoying and go with it. Don't get bogged down in trying to convince people of anything about the AvA. It's image has been damaged for so long by reasons both just and some just pulled out of thin air that debating it on the BBS is pointless. Focus and what on what a few people are really enjoying and build it from there and let word of mouth do the work.
And for those of you who have not tried this current set up pop in for a few sorties. It's definitely a nice change of pace and loads of fun. :aok
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P.S. Jimson, the very reason the AvA is dying and has been for a long time is that they quash any negative feedback, stick fingers in their ear and go "LA LA LA L ALA I can't hear you" if you have anything to say that isn't exactly what the vocal minority agree upon. So, no, you can't use "AvA feedback" as a guide for success. Not to mention a novel 1-time (or short-run) experience can be fun because it is different, but does not mean it is successful, and above all does NOT mean "realistic" either.
Krusty I've been about as big of pain in the a** that is possible to the AVA staff in the past and recently. I've been a blunt as a wrecking ball. They'll listen, they'll give you a chance all you have to do is give them a chance.
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It helps if your reasonably polite, and listen back, btw.
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It helps if your reasonably polite, and listen back, btw.
No need to go that far. :D
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Last night I spent about an 1.5 hours in there with the pacific enemy icons off setup and had a blast.
I sucked at it, but I had a blast!
I'm becoming a convert as well, and I didn't expect it either.
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It is worthless to try to sneak up on somebody in AH only because of the big glowing sign above the plane. Would be neat to see the icons sized down a bit or even a single dot over the airplane, red dot. When you are checking your surroundings, you can check them fairly quickly since if there is no 10 foot red neon sign near you, then you are safe.
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its painfully obvious who has and has not flown with no icons .Your arguments are not based in first hand experience.
It's painfully obvious that you sometimes don't know what you're speaking of. There was a game out way before this one that didn't have icons over the planes, instead it just displayed the ranges on the right side of the screen. In furballs, it was pretty useless because you often couldn't tell which range belonged to which plane from all the clutter. My first couple of tours in AH after the Exodus was spent with icons turned off but found it hard to accurately judge the distances and had quite a few collisions. Ended up turning them back on because no matter how hard I would squint, no way my Mark I Eyeballs would ever be able to accurately just distance or depth on a 2D monitor while trying to move around in a simulated 3D environment.
The only reason why I was able to accurately pick out enemy planes in AW without icons over the plane was the tail was colored depending on the country the pilot belonged to. If the tail was any other color than red, it was a bad guy but no way I could ID the type of plane until it got close enough that I was able to make out what color the tail was.
ack-ack
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I have loved no icons since I began flying online many years ago. It is just more fun.
I did a lot of research into how the computer monitor compares to real life and I continue to do it for fun at work since I fly airplanes for a living.
Here is what i found............
1. A computer monitor is excellent at long range and short range. Long range it can draw a dot very well and the same applies to short range. The issue is the middle range. The ideal icon system would compensate for this by having some sort of icon for that middle range.
2. SIZE matters. Extensive testing indicates that the size of an airplane is a big factor in aircraft identification. This should come as no surprise and the current icon system does not account for size. An Me109 size aircraft is readily identifiable at about a mile. A B17 at about 3 miles. This is aspect dependent of course, which leads to...............
3. Aspect to target matters. A P38 provides the most extreme example. In plan view the P38 is very easily identified. Side front or rear view and it dissappears. Anyone who has seen a P38 in flight in the real world instantly realizes this.
4. People believe they have superhuman powers of eyesight. Empirical tests prove otherwise. Claims of identifying Me109's at 10 miles are extremely exaggerated. At ten miles the average modern jet airliner is not clearly identifiable. It is a dot or a smudge if its a 747. An Me109 is the size of one of the engines on that smudge.
5. Familiarity with aircraft MATTERS. An expert identifies and aircraft at over twice the range of a casual observer.
The ideal icon system would accomodate all these factors and more I haven't mentioned. No icons is not perfect because a monitor is not real life but the current icon system is a ridiculous, outdated crutch. I think it ruins the beauty inherent to the game and it does help ACM tremendously. Fights are better no icon because there is no artificial range and closure display and instant ID.
One of the things I discovered that is borne out by anecdotal evidence is the fact that a Me109 looks exactly like a P51 in planview at twice the distance. Once you are far enough away that the nose bulges on the 109 blend into the silhouette they are very hard to distinguish.
I love no icons and i am watching this debate and deciding whether it will be around long enough to warrant building a new machine and reopening my account. I'd also love to see AH revise the icon system but there is zero incentive to do that and probably negative incentive.
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@ Dawger
Its allot of fun many have been enjoying this quality style of siminng over the past week or so in the AvA tonight was a blast as well take a look here. The set up is great. Lots of fast paced action .
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,285185.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,285185.0.html)
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Just a word from the past
The No-Icons action was providing a tons of fun back then, when Finnish AH community was beta testing the Kanttori's & Blauk's SEA maps in h2h.
It wasn't all that difficult, because the enemies were flying x set of planes and friendlies y set of planes.
BTW
I have not flying the AH for sometime now. Do the SEA CM's have a forced ICON setting these days?
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Sorry for the punt, but...
Do the SEA CM's have a forced ICON setting these days?