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General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Jayhawk on March 11, 2010, 01:42:09 PM

Title: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Jayhawk on March 11, 2010, 01:42:09 PM
Let me begin my saying HTC did an excellent job on the new arena and planes.  I'm impressed and have been enjoying it so far.  Nothing like stalling out at 100 feet, falling for two minutes and regaining control at 30 feet.  :lol

However, I don't believe the arena will be able to remain popular with it's current set-up (i.e. furballs).  I'm sure HTC has some plan (I hope) for future development or expansion of WWI but I don't recall anything being said about it.  So, my question is, what do YOU think should be done to keep the WWI arenas from becoming a no man's land?  Or why do you believe the arena would be able to stand as is?

Should it be developed similar to current WWII arenas, base takes, bombers, etc?  Is WWI GV fighting really a viable concept to pursue? 

A lot of questions, just a discussion on the future of it.  Obviously it's still very early and there are a lot of bugs and minor issue to work out first, I'm just looking at the big picture.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Saxman on March 11, 2010, 02:01:19 PM
As far as base taking, IMO it should depend on whether HTC decides to create an Early/Mid/Late setup as we have in WW2. Some sort of fluidity in the Early and Late arenas, with Mid being more static to reflect the nature of the war in Western Europe. I think there's definitely need for some addition to gameplay, otherwise they may as well just add a second Furball Lake to the DA and close the stand-alone WW1 arenas.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Lusche on March 11, 2010, 02:03:26 PM
Should it be developed similar to current WWII arenas, base takes, bombers, etc?  Is WWI GV fighting really a viable concept to pursue?  

No. Because it doesn't really work with WWI equipment (nor was the WWI ground warfera that dynamic on the western front at all). And also such an undertaking would surely drain a lot of development resources.

Also see what happened to EW when having the same basetaking gameply dynamics as the more popular LW arena.

As I said before, I wish for a few added ground targets to keep the arena alive on the long run and add combat variety... but even that i do not see coming in the near future.
I think HTC will be back to WW2 full power for now.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: palef on March 11, 2010, 02:08:17 PM
I've never been able to understand why people can't just enjoy a simple furball.

I think the OP should just lighten up.

The most important tactical task of WW1 aircraft was arguably artillery spotting. That'll make for dynamic game play.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Nutzoid on March 11, 2010, 02:17:12 PM
I've never been able to understand why people can't just enjoy a simple furball.

I think the OP should just lighten up.

The most important tactical task of WW1 aircraft was arguably artillery spotting. That'll make for dynamic game play.

"Artillery spotting" and "dynamic game play", your kidding, right? We don't have artillery anywhere in the game now, so how we gonna "spot" it in the WWI arena?

Nutz
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: LLogann on March 11, 2010, 02:18:35 PM
From here..... We'll add more aircraft. 

I think that's where we are going. 

Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Jayhawk on March 11, 2010, 02:19:25 PM
I've never been able to understand why people can't just enjoy a simple furball.

I think the OP should just lighten up.

The most important tactical task of WW1 aircraft was arguably artillery spotting. That'll make for dynamic game play.

Well if everyone though like you the world would be much simpler wouldn't it?  I've been enjoying the furballs, but what happens in two months when there are 3 people in the arena at a time?  I can't predict the future but my opinion is that people will move away from the WWI planes once, as ThndrEGG says 'the novelty wears off'.

I'm getting the feeling you disagree with that, why do you believe WWI will remain a viable arena in a few months?  I'm honestly interested in hearing different opinions on this, much more than you telling me to 'lighten up' because I enjoy the game differently than you.
 :salute
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Ghosth on March 11, 2010, 02:34:40 PM
I guess I'd like to see Barrage balloons for all 3 sides in the center. Help bring the furball into the center away from the fields.

Give you something to waste a few rounds on, etc.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: FiLtH on March 11, 2010, 02:37:28 PM
  Nutz I dont think he was being serious :)
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Agent360 on March 11, 2010, 02:45:02 PM
I propose a simple "capture the flag" system in the ww1 arena.


Located away from the airfield is a destructable object with a flag. The object can be destroyed after so many strafing hits. Once it is destroyed the flag changes to the country that killed the object. There would be many of these spread around the map.

Capturing over 50% (?? 70% or mabey even 100%) of all the flags will win the war and all the flags will reset. I think the flags could reset without the whole arena resetting and disconnecting everyone.

This would promote a more spread out fight, or it could turn into a heated defense/offense for a country to keep their flags. It would require a little strategic thinking to win all the flags.

I guess sort of the same thing as killing the town and dropping troops but without the troops.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: 68ZooM on March 11, 2010, 02:47:05 PM
I propose a simple "capture the flag" system in the ww1 arena.


Located away from the airfield is a destructable object with a flag. The object can be destroyed after so many strafing hits. Once it is destroyed the flag changes to the country that killed the object. There would be many of these spread around the map.

Capturing over 50% (?? 70% or mabey even 100%) of all the flags will win the war and all the flags will reset. I think the flags could reset without the whole arena resetting and disconnecting everyone.

This would promote a more spread out fight, or it could turn into a heated defense/offense for a country to keep their flags. It would require a little strategic thinking to win all the flags.

I guess sort of the same thing as killing the town and dropping troops but without the troops.

+100   :aok
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: waystin2 on March 11, 2010, 02:48:46 PM
I propose a simple "capture the flag" system in the ww1 arena.


Located away from the airfield is a destructable object with a flag. The object can be destroyed after so many strafing hits. Once it is destroyed the flag changes to the country that killed the object. There would be many of these spread around the map.

Capturing over 50% (?? 70% or mabey even 100%) of all the flags will win the war and all the flags will reset. I think the flags could reset without the whole arena resetting and disconnecting everyone.

This would promote a more spread out fight, or it could turn into a heated defense/offense for a country to keep their flags. It would require a little strategic thinking to win all the flags.

I guess sort of the same thing as killing the town and dropping troops but without the troops.

This is wishlist worthy Agent! :aok
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Yossarian on March 11, 2010, 02:50:11 PM
I propose a simple "capture the flag" system in the ww1 arena.


Located away from the airfield is a destructable object with a flag. The object can be destroyed after so many strafing hits. Once it is destroyed the flag changes to the country that killed the object. There would be many of these spread around the map.

Capturing over 50% (?? 70% or mabey even 100%) of all the flags will win the war and all the flags will reset. I think the flags could reset without the whole arena resetting and disconnecting everyone.

This would promote a more spread out fight, or it could turn into a heated defense/offense for a country to keep their flags. It would require a little strategic thinking to win all the flags.

I guess sort of the same thing as killing the town and dropping troops but without the troops.

Brilliant!  +1  :aok
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Bruv119 on March 11, 2010, 02:51:15 PM
how many perks would one get for all that strafing once the flag war has been won?

and what would they spend it on  :D
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Spikes on March 11, 2010, 02:53:30 PM
I propose a simple "capture the flag" system in the ww1 arena.


Located away from the airfield is a destructable object with a flag. The object can be destroyed after so many strafing hits. Once it is destroyed the flag changes to the country that killed the object. There would be many of these spread around the map.

Capturing over 50% (?? 70% or mabey even 100%) of all the flags will win the war and all the flags will reset. I think the flags could reset without the whole arena resetting and disconnecting everyone.

This would promote a more spread out fight, or it could turn into a heated defense/offense for a country to keep their flags. It would require a little strategic thinking to win all the flags.

I guess sort of the same thing as killing the town and dropping troops but without the troops.
Couldn't agree more!
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: 4deck on March 11, 2010, 03:11:22 PM
I guess I'd like to see Barrage balloons for all 3 sides in the center. Help bring the furball into the center away from the fields.

Give you something to waste a few rounds on, etc.


I would love to see barrage balloons over fields, and maybe the center could use a little more eye candy. But all in all, I think its a perfect arena for a furball. I havent laughed or had this much fun in a long time.

Please add a few more planes, but dont change a thing. Its a great stress releaver. If you dont like to furball don't but I think the WW I Arena is gonna be around awhile. ;)
It also beats the DA anyday.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Stratocaster on March 11, 2010, 03:14:38 PM
I would like to see at least one of the three arenas be a historical match up arena with the planes on the correct sides.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: GFShill on March 11, 2010, 03:23:24 PM
Zeppelins would be a good start for targets, and also would make good gunnery platforms for those who don't want to fly but want to shoot. Think "aerial PT Boats". 

A trench system with strafable gun positions would make for good ground fighting, too.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: waystin2 on March 11, 2010, 03:27:47 PM
Well here is one change on the way:

hitech
Administrator
Platinum Member


     Re: Instant Country Switching in WWI Arenas
« Reply #7 on: Today at 01:56:40 PM » Quote  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Done
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: aztec on March 11, 2010, 03:38:22 PM
For those who don't remember Hitech created Dawn of Aces...the WWI version of Warbirds. We started out with a small plane set and pretty much the same simple gameplay we have now. Eventually more planes were added..artillery,  Zeppelins
for spotting  and ranging artillery etc.

I think we'll  find that things will develop here in a similar fashion.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: 68ZooM on March 11, 2010, 03:42:06 PM
how many perks would one get for all that strafing once the flag war has been won?

and what would they spend it on  :D

I'm guessing those would be tied into your MA perks just like the other arenas, just use them in the LW or MA i guess   :headscratch:    or spend them on wine, women and song at the local pub  :cheers:
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: shppr01 on March 11, 2010, 03:45:11 PM
I propose a simple "capture the flag" system in the ww1 arena.


Located away from the airfield is a destructable object with a flag. The object can be destroyed after so many strafing hits. Once it is destroyed the flag changes to the country that killed the object. There would be many of these spread around the map.

Capturing over 50% (?? 70% or mabey even 100%) of all the flags will win the war and all the flags will reset. I think the flags could reset without the whole arena resetting and disconnecting everyone.

This would promote a more spread out fight, or it could turn into a heated defense/offense for a country to keep their flags. It would require a little strategic thinking to win all the flags.

I guess sort of the same thing as killing the town and dropping troops but without the troops.





+1100%
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Jayhawk on March 11, 2010, 03:51:06 PM
I propose a simple "capture the flag" system in the ww1 arena.


Located away from the airfield is a destructable object with a flag. The object can be destroyed after so many strafing hits. Once it is destroyed the flag changes to the country that killed the object. There would be many of these spread around the map.

Capturing over 50% (?? 70% or mabey even 100%) of all the flags will win the war and all the flags will reset. I think the flags could reset without the whole arena resetting and disconnecting everyone.

This would promote a more spread out fight, or it could turn into a heated defense/offense for a country to keep their flags. It would require a little strategic thinking to win all the flags.

I guess sort of the same thing as killing the town and dropping troops but without the troops.

By george this guy's got an idea!
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: RufusLeaking on March 11, 2010, 04:11:51 PM
Zeppelins would be a good start for targets, and also would make good gunnery platforms for those who don't want to fly but want to shoot. Think "aerial PT Boats". 
Zeppelins was my first thought, also. 

Make these like task groups with Agent 360's capture the flag/destructible object proposal, and it might work.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Toad on March 11, 2010, 05:31:28 PM
I hope they leave at least one WW1 arena just the way it is now.

Some people just want to fight air to air.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Yeager on March 11, 2010, 05:49:06 PM
By george this guy's got an idea!
capture the flag?  in a ww1 arena?  Lets just play the thing for a few months before we start dreaming up all sorts of crazy ideas to dilute it down to nothing but a cheap arcade style  game......
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: The Fugitive on March 11, 2010, 05:58:17 PM
Add more planes..... sure! but leave the rest as it is!
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Jayhawk on March 11, 2010, 06:08:19 PM
See Rule #6
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: BaldEagl on March 11, 2010, 06:12:17 PM
A couple of WWI tanks and a couple of WWI bombers would give the bomber pilots and GVer's something to do and there are some viable options but more fighters are needed first.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: sluggish on March 11, 2010, 06:38:37 PM
As predicted, the fun suckers showed up in 2.5 seconds. 

HTC, whatever you do, please leave one WW1 arena for the furballers; Maybe a WW1 DA for us simpletons.  Do whatever you want with the rest.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Toad on March 11, 2010, 06:44:58 PM
As predicted, the fun suckers showed up in 2.5 seconds. 

HTC, whatever you do, please leave one WW1 arena for the furballers; Maybe a WW1 DA for us simpletons.  Do whatever you want with the rest.

+1 Sluggish.

That's probably the inevitable result of the fun suckers requests.

HT, please............just go ahead and set up a WW1 only Furball Lake. Then give the funsuckers whatever else they want in the WW1 arenas.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: AAJagerX on March 11, 2010, 07:00:55 PM
Ok, my idea is this...  Make an evolving front line (trenches with troops and MG nests).  These "front lines" wouldn't be mannable positions, the troops and MG nests would be destructable though.  As more troops/MG nests were destroyed, the front would slowly creep across the landscape in favor of those doing the most killing of the ground forces.  If the front line crossed an enemy base, voila!  That base is now yours.  This would center the dogfighting over the main fronts of battle, and give us little cartoon people to shoot at(or protect).  For this to work properly we'd need a few bombers added, which would give the buff drivers something in WW1 that they like to do, and it'd give us fighter people more red things to shoot at, while adding an objective to the arena other than the furball.  I may delve into this a bit deeper and make a proper wishlist post.

AAJagerX
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: 321BAR on March 11, 2010, 07:03:11 PM
I propose a simple "capture the flag" system in the ww1 arena.


Located away from the airfield is a destructable object with a flag. The object can be destroyed after so many strafing hits. Once it is destroyed the flag changes to the country that killed the object. There would be many of these spread around the map.

Capturing over 50% (?? 70% or mabey even 100%) of all the flags will win the war and all the flags will reset. I think the flags could reset without the whole arena resetting and disconnecting everyone.

This would promote a more spread out fight, or it could turn into a heated defense/offense for a country to keep their flags. It would require a little strategic thinking to win all the flags.

I guess sort of the same thing as killing the town and dropping troops but without the troops.
any amount of money says the WWI arena will turn into another DA with only WWI craft used... though this is a good option also...
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: newz on March 11, 2010, 07:23:59 PM

Should it be developed similar to current WWII arenas, base takes, bombers,  Gvs,ect
No, No , no!

It's beautiful the way it is.
I can't remember the last time I had so many good fights in a row.

I've got a pretty good feeling the WW1 arena will develop a regular
following of close to 25% of the player base.
Let's face it the only reason to log into the WW1 arena is to engage
in fighter to fighter combat and if you're not logging in for that purpose
why bother?

No capture the flag yet please, can't we just see how this thing plays out?
I hope they leave at least one WW1 arena just the way it is now.
Some people just want to fight air to air.
I couldn't agree more. :aok

Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Oldman731 on March 11, 2010, 07:28:12 PM
I would like to see at least one of the three arenas be a historical match up arena with the planes on the correct sides.

Check out AvA this week.

- oldman
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Pongo on March 11, 2010, 07:31:25 PM
The insanity is amazing. The theater has been up 10 seconds and some clown has deep concerns as to where its going.
Get some sleep.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Steve on March 11, 2010, 07:45:59 PM
Seems a blast just the way it is.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Saurdaukar on March 11, 2010, 07:47:36 PM
Can I have a K98 for when I bail out?

When will troops be modeled?

Did the C-47 see service in WWI?

How else can we implement troop drops?

How do I drop fighter hangers?

When can we expect manned artillery?

B-29?

Separate "alternate reality" WWI arena with nooks and airships that carry fighters?

How can we incorporate Tron speed bikes?



















S.

T.

F.

U.

www.wwiionline.com
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Saxman on March 11, 2010, 07:48:07 PM
Seems a blast just the way it is.

If you like the same gang-tard BS you can get from furball toilet in the DA.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Slash27 on March 11, 2010, 07:49:26 PM
Check out AvA this week.

- oldman

Been pretty fun so far. I've yet to be ganged 25 vs 1 yet either! :D
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: palef on March 11, 2010, 07:58:56 PM
1. Please turn sarcasm filter off before reading the last sentence of my first post in this thread.

2. Furballs, REAL furballs have disappeared from EW, MW, and LW. Completely. Picking, BNZing, HOing and Alt monkey behaviour are not only impractical in the WW1 arenas, they can vary between suicidal and boring.

3. No bomber dweebs to destroy a decent fight and puffy ack that turns string and canvas multi-wing coffins into colanders from which the blood flows freely leaving an exsanguinated corpse to thud pointlessly into the earth below whenever one strays over an enemy base which leads to....

4. No vulching.

Capture the flag? I don't think so Tim. We now have the perfect arenas to learn and perfect ACM and SA in. I don't think there'll only be three people left in the WW1 arenas in a month at all and if I'm proved wrong, well, bite me. :)
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Peyton on March 11, 2010, 08:01:39 PM
More WW2 planes please :salute
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Sunka on March 11, 2010, 08:03:09 PM
More WW2 planes please :salute
:rolleyes:
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Reschke on March 11, 2010, 08:03:09 PM
I propose a simple "capture the flag" system in the ww1 arena.


Located away from the airfield is a destructable object with a flag. The object can be destroyed after so many strafing hits. Once it is destroyed the flag changes to the country that killed the object. There would be many of these spread around the map.

Capturing over 50% (?? 70% or mabey even 100%) of all the flags will win the war and all the flags will reset. I think the flags could reset without the whole arena resetting and disconnecting everyone.

This would promote a more spread out fight, or it could turn into a heated defense/offense for a country to keep their flags. It would require a little strategic thinking to win all the flags.

I guess sort of the same thing as killing the town and dropping troops but without the troops.

Great idea Agent! I hope something like this is brought to fruition in the future.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: jay on March 11, 2010, 08:04:24 PM
i could care less for furballing...sure i like a good furball now and then but WWI will need to have bombers and such or else it will just get boring after a while
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Toad on March 11, 2010, 08:10:04 PM
You've got all that stuff in the MA now. Please just go play there and leave WW1 alone.

Thanks awfully, old chap.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: AAJagerX on March 11, 2010, 08:17:26 PM
1. Please turn sarcasm filter off before reading the last sentence of my post.

2. Furballs, REAL furballs have disappeared from EW, MW, and LW. Completely. Picking, BNZing, HOing and Alt monkey behaviour are not only impractical in the WW1 arenas, they can vary between suicidal and boring.

3. No bomber dweebs to destroy a decent fight and puffy ack that turns string and canvas multi-wing coffins into colanders from which the blood flows freely leaving an exsanguinated corpse to thud pointlessly into the earth below whenever one strays over an enemy base which leads to....

4. No vulching.

Capture the flag? I don't think so Tim. We now have the perfect arenas to learn and perfect ACM and SA in. I don't think there'll only be three people left in the WW1 arenas in a month at all and if I'm proved wrong, well, bite me. :)

I think my idea for a battle line would sufficiently address all of these issues, without affecting the insanity of the WW1 type air combat.  After all, the hangers and ack would be indestructable, hence no reason to bomb them or even attempt a vulch situation.

AAJagerX
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Wingnutt on March 11, 2010, 08:22:53 PM
I dont mid a furball, but I prefer one that grows from a pupose..  I.E. there is a furball when the excorting fighters try and defend the bombers, or a furball trying to stop attackers from destroying.. something..   

flying up and swirling around for a few miniutes before dieing for the sake of flying up and swirling around for a few miniutes will not hold my attention long.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Saxman on March 11, 2010, 08:24:56 PM
I dont mid a furball, but I prefer one that grows from a pupose..  I.E. there is a furball when the excorting fighters try and defend the bombers, or a furball trying to stop attackers from destroying.. something..   

flying up and swirling around for a few miniutes before dieing for the sake of flying up and swirling around for a few miniutes will not hold my attention long.

It's already losing mine. Nothing more boring than getting to the edge of the fight only to be jumped on by half a dozen.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: kvuo75 on March 11, 2010, 08:26:28 PM
I love the ww1 thus far, i have no complaints other than the map, and a request for visual pilot wound :)

I cant wait for the new damage system to be implemented in the ww2 game..   :aok

Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: wsveum on March 11, 2010, 08:27:47 PM
I hope it's going away and they work on making the WWII better.
AKA: Bison
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: bj229r on March 11, 2010, 08:28:30 PM
ONE frikkin day, and people are analyzing it to death
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Wingnutt on March 11, 2010, 08:31:49 PM
ONE frikkin day, and people are analyzing it to death

not so much analysis of what it is, but more speculation as to where it is going or where it should be going.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: jay on March 11, 2010, 08:42:08 PM
the great debate
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: The Fugitive on March 11, 2010, 08:53:58 PM
It's already losing mine. Nothing more boring than getting to the edge of the fight only to be jumped on by half a dozen.

The community has a chance to make this work. They as a group can can get control of the arenas and help people learn that ganging will not be tolerated. With the way it's only fighters there is no reason to gang anyone. Nobody has to save the goon, nobody has to get the buffs in, nobody has to break up the spawn camp. The only reason that anyone should or would gang is that they are a loser and can only get a kill by shooting someone who is other wise occupied.

If everyone controlled themselves, and rein in the ones that don't it could be a great place to have some quick action and a lot of fun for many nights to come.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Sunka on March 11, 2010, 09:20:37 PM
The community has a chance to make this work. They as a group can can get control of the arenas and help people learn that ganging will not be tolerated. With the way it's only fighters there is no reason to gang anyone. Nobody has to save the goon, nobody has to get the buffs in, nobody has to break up the spawn camp. The only reason that anyone should or would gang is that they are a loser and can only get a kill by shooting someone who is other wise occupied.

If everyone controlled themselves, and rein in the ones that don't it could be a great place to have some quick action and a lot of fun for many nights to come.

You are dreaming,in the short amount of time i have been in there,i keep trying to do a good one on one ,as no one knows the planes well and i just want to learn it,but no fail every time i get engaged with one i have 3 or more on me.People are lame,its all about the kills not the skills in AH for most,that's just the way it is.Same old same old,i still love the WWI arena and will enjoy it even with the kill joys.And you know who you are. :D
(side note) I already seen a few guys up at 13 K to pic.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Plawranc on March 11, 2010, 09:27:49 PM
As I said in the OP,  I'm just speculating towards the future and that there is a lot of smaller issues that will be dealt with first.

Now, this is the best opportunity I have to use this gif...

(http://i666.photobucket.com/albums/vv23/Jayhawk1/mofoyh4au3.gif)

:D j/k


:rofl :rofl :rofl
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: BaldEagl on March 11, 2010, 10:50:25 PM
Frankly I don't mind being ganged in the WWI arena.  On the other hand I do in WWII.  It seems to me in WWI you have a much better chance of lasting a lot longer when completely overwhelmed.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: 68ZooM on March 11, 2010, 10:50:56 PM
Its fun and Fugitive your right, its just a quake style play right now, never did like just furrballin, but i started calling out over 200 that i was going to the center of the map to fly a 1V1 and i had takers no problem and it was a total blast no worries about getting ganged, thats just what ya have to do i guess right now to get a good fight going.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Toad on March 11, 2010, 11:09:11 PM
You need to remember the gangers in there are the same guys you see in the hordes in your MA with all of it's lovely "purpose" and "strategy".

If you don't LIKE furballin' just hustle right back to the MAs. No one will miss you in WW1.

The sooner it becomes less populated, the better the fights will be.

A handful of us had a great time by playing in the WW1 arenas that only had 20-30 people in them. Some great 4 v 4 action as well as 1 v 1 and everything in between.

So, if you don't like it, easy solution. You ALREADY have all the extraneous crap in the WW2 arenas.

Let WW1 be for air combat.

Bye now!

Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Tarstar on March 11, 2010, 11:31:44 PM
I propose a simple "capture the flag" system in the ww1 arena.


Located away from the airfield is a destructable object with a flag. The object can be destroyed after so many strafing hits. Once it is destroyed the flag changes to the country that killed the object. There would be many of these spread around the map.

Capturing over 50% (?? 70% or mabey even 100%) of all the flags will win the war and all the flags will reset. I think the flags could reset without the whole arena resetting and disconnecting everyone.

This would promote a more spread out fight, or it could turn into a heated defense/offense for a country to keep their flags. It would require a little strategic thinking to win all the flags

I guess sort of the same thing as killing the town and dropping troops but without the troops.

+1  :aok
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Traveler on March 11, 2010, 11:52:58 PM
will they take away the VOX in the air?  I mean, WWI with voice radio in aircraft?  The test should be limited to ground usage also and the Check 6.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: hubsonfire on March 12, 2010, 12:02:57 AM
Except that we don't have hand signals, and often aren't familiar with our wingman. Comms are a necessary part of online games, perfectly realistic or not. Check six? Are you seriously trying to get vox disabled for "realism", but asking for Check six to be maintained? That's patently retarded.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Saxman on March 12, 2010, 12:07:31 AM
Never mind squads that have Ventrillo, and rarely use game vox as it is.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Shuffler on March 12, 2010, 12:08:30 AM
See Rule #4
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: hubsonfire on March 12, 2010, 12:33:34 AM
Hi, I'm shuffler, and I'm going to spam every WW1 thread.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Boxboy on March 12, 2010, 12:35:06 AM
I propose getting rid of it and putting time into fixing WWII... the real game.

LOL talk about closing the barn door after the horse is gone :rofl  WWI is here and it will be a success and this thread is the tip of the ice berg, 360 has a great idea and there were a couple of others also.  In the real war scouts were sent out to destroy the observation ballons and artillery spotting and recon planes.  Using 360's idea along with arty spotting killing some objects at the "front" and assigning points to objects destroyed (planes, bunkers, arty, ack etc) so that when the "Flag" balloons were down would award the win to the team with the most points would add some strat and STILL keep the furballing alive. All of which can evolve and i see a great influx of players if it does.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Jayhawk on March 12, 2010, 01:38:35 AM
Haha, a lot of emotional responses, wasn't my original intention but what else should I expect.  :rofl

"DON'T EVEN TALK ABOUT PLAYING THE GAME IN ANY OTHER WAY THEN WHAT I THINK IS FUN!"  :furious

-Jayhawk aka 'fun sucker'
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Skuzzy on March 12, 2010, 06:58:55 AM
I spent some time trying some things out in the arena yesterday.  I discovered, if you wanted a one-on-one, all you had to do was fly to the fringe of the mob and sure enough, someone else would fly out to meet you.  On occasion a couple of planes would come out.  So if you want a one-on-one, you can have it, but you have to put a little effort into it.

I also tried flying right into the heart of it all.  That was fun on a different level.  Trying to avoid getting killed and then reversing to chase the horde was great fun too.  On occasion I would pick up one plane that reversed.  Most of the time they all just kept going towards the other mass.

I suck as a pilot, but I am having a blast.

If you do not like or care for the WW1 arenas, that is fine, the WW2 arenas are all still there for you.  There is no point in being a detractor.  Reminds me of the whiny brat at the ice cream truck. You know the one.  The one bawling about how he hates chocolate while everyone else orders it, looking at him like he is an idiot because he does not have to order the chocolate.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Masherbrum on March 12, 2010, 07:02:21 AM
I spent some time trying some things out in the arena yesterday.  I discovered, if you wanted a one-on-one, all you had to do was fly to the fringe of the mob and sure enough, someone else would fly out to meet you.  On occasion a couple of planes would come out.  So if you want a one-on-one, you can have it, but you have to put a little effort into it.

I also tried flying right into the heart of it all.  That was fun on a different level.  Trying to avoid getting killed and then reversing to chase the horde was great fun too.  On occasion I would pick up one plane that reversed.  Most of the time they all just kept going towards the other mass.

I suck as a pilot, but I am having a blast.

If you do not like or care for the WW1 arenas, that is fine, the WW2 arenas are all still there for you.  There is no point in being a detractor.  Reminds me of the whiny brat at the ice cream truck. You know the one.  The one bawling about how he hates chocolate while everyone else orders it, looking at him like he is an idiot because he does not have to order the chocolate.

I like chocolate.   :uhoh
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Ghosth on March 12, 2010, 07:08:54 AM
All I can add to what Skuzzy said is this. This is not Hitech's first time around the block.
He knows us better than we know ourselves in most cases. This is where his bread gets buttered, so I don't think he'll screw the pooch.

Throwing new ideas out there is good, because the HTC staff will find ways to use the good stuff. While leaving the rest behind.

I do think something in the center front lines area like Barrage Balloons or Zep, or road convoy, to draw planes, spread fights out, would be a good thing.  The rest, well I'm sure when HT and the crew can get around to it we'll have it.
Meantime he has a lot of WWII junky's that are not feeling the love. 

Plus he has the huge job of bringing all the WWII planes up to the new WWI damage standard.
And that is one big monster of a job.

Just tickled pink to have it, to see the HTC Staff flying (hey skuzzy, lets wing up!)

Rock on guys! <S>
 
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: uptown on March 12, 2010, 07:16:08 AM
I spent some time trying some things out in the arena yesterday.  I discovered, if you wanted a one-on-one, all you had to do was fly to the fringe of the mob and sure enough, someone else would fly out to meet you.  On occasion a couple of planes would come out.  So if you want a one-on-one, you can have it, but you have to put a little effort into it.


I wish this was posted in another thread. I call that "reading a furball". Some guys don't get that yet. Great tactic if you fly alone like I do.  :salute
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Saurdaukar on March 12, 2010, 08:27:38 AM
I suck as a pilot, but I am having a blast.

If you do not like or care for the WW1 arenas, that is fine, the WW2 arenas are all still there for you. 

Proof positive that HTC still "gets it."

We were worried about y'all for awhile, there.  :aok

Love,

-Mindless furballer who keeps country X from winning ze var!!111
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: WWhiskey on March 12, 2010, 08:54:12 AM
I guess I'd like to see Barrage balloons for all 3 sides in the center. Help bring the furball into the center away from the fields.

Give you something to waste a few rounds on, etc.

+1 manned balloons at the field and in the middle,if they get shot up, they would stay down for 5 minutes or so! i love the new arena tho and will be there weather it changes or not, i would like to see more planes and maybe bring the bases a little bit closer together as well!
 over all  tho  it rocks no matter what, :rock :rock :rock
 it is not supposed to be  like the other arena's, no need to capture bases, no need for GV's,, just fun to be had by those who like furballs or 1v1 dogfights . i bet it will last a long time,
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Peyton on March 12, 2010, 08:55:59 AM

Plus he has the huge job of bringing all the WWII planes up to the new WWI damage standard.
And that is one big monster of a job.




Gosth...what do you mean about the WW1 and WW2 damge model....please explain?????
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: gpwurzel on March 12, 2010, 08:56:45 AM
Was having a blast last night yet again. Not too concerned where ww1 goes from here, enjoying it for what it is at the moment. Sure, at the moment, its horde v horde between bases - did a fighter sweep last night from one of the bases with my squaddies and a couple of friendlies - pushed the guys attacking back towards their base, squaddies agreed to pull away from the base to allow people to up (cant say about the other friendlies that were there).

Imo, the blasted bit in the center could be enlarged, its awesome flying over the broken/burnt tree's btw, and trenches etc could be extended. The ack at the bases is awesome, no vulching here chaps. Only thing I dont like about it is....when someone gets too close (nme) and you go to engage, you get mullered by it too lol.........(not a big deal, more funny than anything).

Wurzel
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Peyton on March 12, 2010, 09:03:04 AM

If you do not like or care for the WW1 arenas, that is fine, the WW2 arenas are all still there for you.  There is no point in being a detractor.  Reminds me of the whiny brat at the ice cream truck. You know the one.  The one bawling about how he hates chocolate while everyone else orders it, looking at him like he is an idiot because he does not have to order the chocolate.

Skuzz,
This is not an ice cream question...I'm asking seriously.  Will there be new maps, planes and vehicles for WW2?  Does HT still plan on supporting and developing for WW2 as much as WW1?

Thanks
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: BaldEagl on March 12, 2010, 09:08:20 AM
Because of the lack of bombers and the low altitude fighting I think the WWI arena would provide the perfect place fot HT to bring back the old storm fronts from AHI.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Jayhawk on March 12, 2010, 09:30:23 AM
I feel a need to make myself clear.  I've been having a blast in the WWI arenas.  Have spent almost exclusively my AH time the last couple of days in there.  Both in the furballs and a couple 1v1s.  Typing out that you're going for a 1v1 in the middle worked very well.  There weren't many of us but those of us who were there were staying out of the 1v1s till a spot opened up. I landed and watched a long fight between Tec and Assi, quite impressive, before asking Tec if he need to rtb or could go.  By the way, I feel the need to redeem myself from those flights,  I have no doubt he is a much better pilot but... trees, damn trees!

Anyway, my point is the WWI arenas are a lot of fun, HTC did an excellent job.  I don't want to see any major changes yet because people are enjoying it just the way it is.  I wanted to have a discussion about the what future looked like for WWI because I don't think it will or will be able to stay the way it is right now.

Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Saxman on March 12, 2010, 09:39:33 AM
I feel a need to make myself clear.  I've been having a blast in the WWI arenas.  Have spent almost exclusively my AH time the last couple of days in there.  Both in the furballs and a couple 1v1s.  Typing out that you're going for a 1v1 in the middle worked very well.  There weren't many of us but those of us who were there were staying out of the 1v1s till a spot opened up. I landed and watched a long fight between Tec and Assi, quite impressive, before asking Tec if he need to rtb or could go.  By the way, I feel the need to redeem myself from those flights,  I have no doubt he is a much better pilot but... trees, damn trees!

Anyway, my point is the WWI arenas are a lot of fun, HTC did an excellent job.  I don't want to see any major changes yet because people are enjoying it just the way it is.  I wanted to have a discussion about the what future looked like for WWI because I don't think it will or will be able to stay the way it is right now.



Oh, when I could get a 1v1 fight I enjoyed it, and accounted for myself quite well. The problem is that the general furball isn't even a group on group engagement. If you have ten friendlies and ten enemy aircraft all within a 2000 yard radius, do you have a 10v10 fight? Not at all. You end up with two 9v1 fights. EVERY TIME.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Zoney on March 12, 2010, 09:48:17 AM
I love it all.  I would like to see Zepplins as gun platforms,  But most of all I would like to see a "city" map with buildings, bridges, rivers, narrow streets, and a mountain map with maybe a couple canyons thrown in for fun.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Skuzzy on March 12, 2010, 10:05:16 AM
Skuzz,
This is not an ice cream question...I'm asking seriously.  Will there be new maps, planes and vehicles for WW2?  Does HT still plan on supporting and developing for WW2 as much as WW1?

Thanks

I do not work on the development side of things, so I cannot comment.  However, I cannot imagine a scenario where we stopped working on WW2.

My 'ice cream' poke was targeting a few people who insist on making derogatory remarks and not offering anything constructive to the discussion.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Yeager on March 12, 2010, 10:13:58 AM
I cannot imagine a scenario where we stopped working on WW2.
I dont get it with some of these people?......because four new planes have been added the game is suddenly going to stop evolving and developing.....tis about the dumbest line of thinking I have yet encountered regarding this game.

Pass my regards onto the devs:  Wonderful beautiful splendid work has been done here.  I can't hardly wait for the F86 vrs Mig15 set up  :D
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Yeager on March 12, 2010, 10:17:37 AM
You end up with two 9v1 fights. EVERY TIME.
Sounds like you are having a difficult go of it.  Srry to hear.  For me its been nothing short of redeeming.  LW has been dead to me for years, only MidWar has kept me paying.  This new arena is like frosting on the cake....Delicious!

Relax (don't do it)  :x
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Saurdaukar on March 12, 2010, 10:41:38 AM
...and not offering anything constructive to the discussion.

I actually have not seen this suggested yet:

Reduction of effective icon range.

Methinks that while 5,000 yards is necessary for the LWMA; 1,000 or 2,000 yards would be more appropriate for WWI.  The difference in closure rates is staggering, obviously.  600/700+ kts vs. 200+ kts, combined.

Ignoring the historical question of whether or not a pilot would be able to identify a very small aircraft (in comparison to WWII AC size) with less identifiable pain schemes (in comparison to Axis = painted v. Allied (US) = not painted and subject to sun glints, by and large) at 5,000 yards, the thought in my head is that this would accomplish a couple things which might improve the experience:


1.)  For those in favor of period tactics, as the arena evolves beyond "lets see what this is all about" it will allow for a somewhat better chance of a successful bounce out of the sun (which seems to be brighter in the WWI arena?)

2.)  It might actually even out and spread out the fights.  If you consider that the mentality of the average player is cautious when at a numerical disadvantage and aggressive when at a numerical advantage, the inability to see the odds (sea of red/sea of green) at such a long distance might change the dynamic of when a player decides to firewall it towards a furball.  If that player, with that average mentality, cant see that the furball is a sea of green from so far out; he might be less likely to decide to add to the green population from further out.  By time he is close enough, the ability to reverse his decision is lessened, should the odds not be to his liking.  Theoretically, this may result in multiple furballs between countries instead of a single furball.

3.)  Might add to immersion ("oh crap!") and give the psychological impression of a more fast-paced environment in spite of the slower speeds.


Am I off my rocker or was one cup of coffee enough to effectively articulate what's in my head?  The way I figure, a 5,000 yard icon range in the WWI arena is akin to a 15,000+ icon range in the LWMA.

Thoughts?


(EDIT:  For kicks, I think it would be just plain cool to see the occasional tracer round pass from one trench to the other.)  :D
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Saxman on March 12, 2010, 10:51:48 AM
I could see this going either way as far as addressing the mob mentality. If you can't see any bandit outside 2000yds, it may lead to more caution and guys holding altitude rather than have a dozen friendlies dive on one con since there's going to be less warning when reinforcements arrive.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Toad on March 12, 2010, 10:56:39 AM
"DON'T EVEN TALK ABOUT PLAYING THE GAME IN ANY OTHER WAY THEN WHAT I THINK IS FUN!"  :furious

-Jayhawk aka 'fun sucker'

Actually, if you thought about it for a minute, you're the one who doesn't want the game played any other way than what you think is fun.

You have all that win-the-war crap along with your other oh-so-fantastic ideas already available to you in the WW2 arenas. You HAVE the game you want; it's played there in WW2.

Your problem is that now there is a NEW arena with a different game. Actually, it's the game as it was played at the very beginning of AH, before the dross you love was added. The old straight up air combat, which is what attracted the first cadre of players, enabled HiTech Creations to flourish as a company, has become new again.

And you want to change it. Because it's not the way YOU think it should be played.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Saurdaukar on March 12, 2010, 11:03:47 AM
I could see this going either way as far as addressing the mob mentality. If you can't see any bandit outside 2000yds, it may lead to more caution and guys holding altitude rather than have a dozen friendlies dive on one con since there's going to be less warning when reinforcements arrive.

I considered that... though I'm not sure what the probability of each potential result coming to fruition actually is.

Wonder if HTC already tried it during testing and axed it.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Saurdaukar on March 12, 2010, 11:06:41 AM
Your problem is that now there is a NEW arena with a different game. Actually, it's the game as it was played at the very beginning...

Doesn't it feel bloody friggen fantastic to be able to say that?

All of the furballer/landgrabber arguments of the past God-know-how-many-years decided with a single arena and a HTC-lead return to roots.

I feel all warm and fuzzy inside.  Hold me.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Pongo on March 12, 2010, 11:16:11 AM
I am just amazed.
People have the thing one day and they think its doomed if it doenst get the "campaign game mission generator built in"
I honestly cannot believe that people can be such bellybutton hats.
I play the thing and marvel at the compromises that HT and pyro have put in, keep the flight quirky but approachable add the wind sounds in, nice tight little map that keeps the battle going for such slow aircraft.
I am impressed with the balance they have sought. Others think its a failure because its a furball. As if such tight turning slow planes will not always form a furball. They did in WW1 idiots!

To say this arena and these planes are just like the other arenas(as if that would be bad) is just incorrect.
In these planes and this arena you get the very cool dynamic of the wall of air that forms the boundry of the fight between red and blue. On each side will be 10-15 planes, with no one crossing that line until someone thinks they can take advantage of their 120 mph shaky dive and get a good shot at another kite. Then the two sides collide like two card decks being shuffled by a vegas dealer and 10 minutes of hillarity ensue while the gangs decide who owns this 7 11 parking lot.  

These fights are very intimate. How could you not like it?
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Saxman on March 12, 2010, 11:21:54 AM
...Because it's not the way YOU think it should be played.

Ain't that a bunch of pot-calling-the-kettle BS. Mind telling me why your view of what the game should be is more valid than what he wants to see?
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Toad on March 12, 2010, 11:39:08 AM
Look Saxman, I DON'T play the MA game. Initially, AH was about air combat; in the MA that is no longer true. OTOH, I'm quite happy to stay out of the MA and let the land-grabbing hordes have their fun. I am not the one insisting on changing the game to the way I think it should be. Play in the MA; peace be upon you.

No, instead, I just go where HTC has placed my type of play. I go to the DA and have a blast. It doesn't bother me in the least that the MAs are running a completely different game. I have my fun with other like-minded folks in the appropriate HTC provided sandbox.

Now we have the WW1 arenas. They are my type of play; HTC has deliberately made them the way they are. He could have added the MA win-the-war dross right from the beginning but didn't. I take this as a hopeful sign that they have decided to cater to two distinctly different player bases.

In the beginning, this game was to be about aerial combat. I understand that things evolve but the MAs long ago departed from the original AH. Check the date on this post by Pyro; it's back at the very beginning of the game.

Quote
Originally posted by Pyro

09-18-1999 02:10 AM


The game is about aerial combat and that takes precedence to everything else. There will be tanks and such in the game but they won't ever be the main focus.

Vehicles will be useful for harrassing the enemy and capturing bases. There will be a lot more vehicle bases scattered around the terrain than airfields, so the travel distances won't be a huge factor.

But the gist of the message is that yes, we'll be putting more into this game than airplanes but our focus of the game is still aerial combat.


Can you and your lot have the decency to play the game you want, the one already operating in the MA, and leave room for a different game that a lot of other people prefer?

Or are you going to continue to demand that HTC change WW1 to the way YOU want to play?
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Saxman on March 12, 2010, 11:50:05 AM
*I'M* not demanding anything. I play the game both ways: Some days I just want to find a good dogfight, others I'm looking for something more substantial. Neither game is superior to the other because they're two entirely different ways of playing. But just because YOU only want to dogfight doesn't give you the right to attack someone else who expresses an interest in seeing if something more can be done with the WWI arenas and aircraft than DA Lite.

You're in an online community of thousands of players with different concepts of enjoyment. Check your sense of entitlement at the door.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Peyton on March 12, 2010, 12:05:52 PM
I dont get it with some of these people?......because four new planes have been added the game is suddenly going to stop evolving and developing.....tis about the dumbest line of thinking I have yet encountered regarding this game.

Pass my regards onto the devs:  Wonderful beautiful splendid work has been done here.  I can't hardly wait for the F86 vrs Mig15 set up  :D

Yeager,

I don't get some of these people that don't read the question and reply without having read the question properly.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Traveler on March 12, 2010, 12:21:20 PM
Except that we don't have hand signals, and often aren't familiar with our wingman. Comms are a necessary part of online games, perfectly realistic or not. Check six? Are you seriously trying to get vox disabled for "realism", but asking for Check six to be maintained? That's patently retarded.

Sorry, I also think check 6 should go.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Toad on March 12, 2010, 12:26:49 PM
Neither game is superior to the other because they're two entirely different ways of playing.

Therefore, since the land-grabbing war winnahs ALREADY HAVE their arena, it follows that the other way of playing should get its own arena as well.

There is no need and no defensible reason why WW1 has to turn into another hordewarrior, land-grabbing, war-winning playground.

Fairness dictates that both ways of playing have their place here.

I'm sure you agree.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Saxman on March 12, 2010, 12:29:03 PM
Therefore, since the land-grabbing war winnahs ALREADY HAVE their arena, it follows that the other way of playing should get its own arena as well.


Isn't that what Furball Lake in the DA was for? :P
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Toad on March 12, 2010, 12:33:46 PM
It's also what HTC intended WW1 for apparently.

Why aren't you poor souls that already have the game you want in WW2 MAs crying for more strat at Furball Lake?

It's clear which people are demanding that EVERYTHING be tailored to suit them; it's not the guys enjoying WW1 arenas just as they are, just as they were introduced.

Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: bustr on March 12, 2010, 12:39:27 PM

The ack at the bases is awesome, no vulching here chaps. Only thing I dont like about it is....when someone gets too close (nme) and you go to engage, you get mullered by it too lol.........(not a big deal, more funny than anything).

Wurzel

Ack wont save you at tree top level. Fuse followed my broken bird on the deck into the middel of my airfeild to vulch me on landing. My top wing had been blown away along with my under carraige so I RTB at tree top level and he followed me in. Ack didn't know he was there untill he crossed the tree line. I think all the ways to dweeb in the WWI arena will be found and implimented shortly. F.2b pilots have discovered their gunner can pick you while you are in a 1 vs 1 by flying along side and never being at risk especially since its faster than everything else. I think an SE5a would counter the F.2B's speed. And here I had been saluting and flying away after my opponents landed in no mans land......we need...we need...I know, bricks and hand grenades in our cockpits to finish our augered opponents...yeah realll dweeby stuff like that........ :cheers:

By the very end of WWI command finally understood the power of hoards of aircraft and no holds barr'd tactics. It's taken less than 36 hours in Aces High.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: 68ZooM on March 12, 2010, 12:51:45 PM
I see landgrabbin, furrballin and every other style of play in the LW or the MW, the LW MA is just full of all you describe gang tards, base takers, people who drop hangers for no reason (not taking the base) just for points, furrballers just want to furrball, see everyone plays there way, what i would hate to see is the WW1 Areana's turn into the MA's, but thats going to be up to the community and HTC working together to improve it, not turn it into the MA's, sure people will never agree on everything, that we all can agree on, but we have to try to make it enjoyable for as many different style of players we have.

 i love the WW1 aircraft there a blast to fly and ive never had more fun then the 1v1 2v2 fights that i have had in there, but i dont enjoy getting into a 1V1  only to be ganged by 4 or 5 other red guys, that style of play seems will never end, i even went on 200 and asked nicely , hey if you guys see a 1 on 1 you all dont have to jump in, all i got back was " oh cry me a river" of course that said was by the one of the "gang" that killed me. now thats a great attitude to have.I'm sure in time there will be two WW1 arena's one like what we have now and one with WW1 accurate strats or objectives, give it time.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Westy on March 12, 2010, 12:55:53 PM
"These fights are very intimate. How could you not like it?"

 Usually cause they're not good at air-combat against sentient beings.

 To compensate <wink> they redefine "online combat" in a mmpog as creating missuns
to bomb pixels and capture graphix while hoping for a hi-five from the server when it
announces  "yewe WuN teh War!"
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Nutzoid on March 12, 2010, 12:59:23 PM
  Nutz I dont think he was being serious :)

Oh, OK. Sorry.   :)
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Traveler on March 12, 2010, 01:00:48 PM
Why does it appear that all the fighting is occuring down in the mud.   Didn't a major part of the fights take place above 2000 feet or more?  Wasn't the red Barron killed by an infantryman rifle shot?  Perhaps it might improve the WWI arena if the local infantry  opened up on the low flying enemy aircraft.   Infantry lines were pretty much static for most of WWI.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Masherbrum on March 12, 2010, 01:03:15 PM
Why does it appear that all the fighting is occuring down in the mud.   Didn't a major part of the fights take place above 2000 feet or more?  Wasn't the red Barron killed by an infantryman rifle shot?  Perhaps it might improve the WWI arena if the local infantry  opened up on the low flying enemy aircraft.   Infantry lines were pretty much static for most of WWI.

This is about the most asinine request I've ever read, outside of your last one regarding no check 6's and vox.    Go for the Trifecta!
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Saxman on March 12, 2010, 01:15:36 PM
I see landgrabbin, furrballin and every other style of play in the LW or the MW, the LW MA is just full of all you describe gang tards, base takers, people who drop hangers for no reason (not taking the base) just for points, furrballers just want to furrball, see everyone plays there way, what i would hate to see is the WW1 Areana's turn into the MA's, but thats going to be up to the community and HTC working together to improve it, not turn it into the MA's, sure people will never agree on everything, that we all can agree on, but we have to try to make it enjoyable for as many different style of players we have.

I would actually have to say that some of the best and most intense fights I've been in have been a hard-fought, back-and-forth battle to capture an airfield.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: bustr on March 12, 2010, 01:37:47 PM
Think of MA furballs and how they mostly take place on the deck. Very few players have the willingness to go head to head at 12k or higher unless they have tactical numbers to hide behind.

I've been in one fight in WWI-Arena that started higher than 100ft. It was at 2k over the cons swirling hoard below us. With that much air under your WWI kite you can recover from spins and bad wing over stalls unlike at 100ft where half of our kills are the con stalling into the deck. So we went round and round up and down until I got a strong guns solution and my advisary pointed his nose straight down and ran to his 100ft high hoard.

Being the only green guy for 2k around now at 1k alt with a new hoard approching from 2k out to support the hoard just under my feet, I began briskly peddling my whirlygig in the direction of my slowly creeping countrymen. The whole time I was strolling away from the hoard, the hoard was strolling with me peppering my kite from 800 back enmass. Around the time I stopped counting holes in the fabric and finished admiring the wood through the fabric shreds, the hoard behind me all broke and headed back to their bigger higher hoard because my six countrymen were 500ft higher than them.

I really wonder if fights in the WWI-Arena will ever take place at historical altitiudes. So far I know more about what the tree trunks in the WWI-Arena look like than I know about ACM flying the WWI kites above 100ft. Lets see what I remember so far.....swirl left, swirl right, wing over wing over, look out for the ground, swirl right, swirl left, look out for that tree...hmmm nice bark on that trunk...wing over, wing over, dangit he stalled and flopped into me again............ :joystick:
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: 68ZooM on March 12, 2010, 02:28:37 PM
Ive just been returning the wood to where it originated from  :D    :joystick:
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Saurdaukar on March 12, 2010, 02:29:45 PM
Lets see what I remember so far.....swirl left, swirl right, wing over wing over, look out for the ground, swirl right, swirl left, look out for that tree...hmmm nice bark on that trunk...wing over, wing over, dangit he stalled and flopped into me again............ :joystick:

In fairness, all of us are WWI two-weekers.

What I do like about the WWI arenas is that advanced ACM is observable.

The "How did he do that?" moments in the LWMA are epiphanies in the WWI arena.  With the slower speeds and shorter distances, a newer player can actually *see* how they are getting beat.

While these planes may turn on a dime, comparatively, the endless luftberry is not a successful tactic against most players in either arena - that deficiency is simply magnified at slower speed - and it can only be good for AH as a whole if an increasing number of players develop some real ATA ability beyond HO, run, rinse, repeat.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Yeager on March 12, 2010, 02:33:59 PM
it is new and people are just checking it out.  I would give it at least several weeks before expecting any sort of collective player strat to mature. 
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: AKIron on March 12, 2010, 02:53:49 PM
There was little base capture going on in WWI. Maybe some trenches in the middle for those want to move mud. Shouldn't affect the furballers but could offer a mechanism for the more goal oriented.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: 4deck on March 12, 2010, 03:07:50 PM
Well theres scores now in the WW I arena. BUMMER :( Would rather not see a stat. I mean if you really want to see them for WW I theres alwas the stat page.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: 68ZooM on March 12, 2010, 03:10:41 PM
its going to be hard to sort them out for abit, with all the crashing into each other, and people getting proxies, its hard to really tell.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Jayhawk on March 12, 2010, 07:28:43 PM
Actually, if you thought about it for a minute, you're the one who doesn't want the game played any other way than what you think is fun.

You have all that win-the-war crap along with your other oh-so-fantastic ideas already available to you in the WW2 arenas. You HAVE the game you want; it's played there in WW2.

Your problem is that now there is a NEW arena with a different game. Actually, it's the game as it was played at the very beginning of AH, before the dross you love was added. The old straight up air combat, which is what attracted the first cadre of players, enabled HiTech Creations to flourish as a company, has become new again.

And you want to change it. Because it's not the way YOU think it should be played.

Whew... alright, taking taking a deep breath for myself.

Okay.

I believe you've misread my posts, or started reading them with an expectation about what I was saying.  I don't believe I said it SHOULD be changed but rather that I believed it WOULD be changed.  **warning, personal opionion ahead** I don't think the arena will survive as a furball arena. I very well may be proven wrong in the future, at which time you are welcome to stick your tongue out at me and tell me I was wrong.

I have been trying to word my posts as neutral as possible, mostly asking questions and making observations.  If I didn't do that, I apologize.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: aztec on March 13, 2010, 07:53:14 AM
For those who don't remember Hitech created Dawn of Aces...the WWI version of Warbirds. We started out with a small plane set and pretty much the same simple gameplay we have now. Eventually more planes were added..artillery,  Zeppelins
for spotting  and ranging artillery etc.

I think we'll  find that things will develop here in a similar fashion.

Some of you folks crack me up. Try reading the above ONE MORE time.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: CptTrips on March 13, 2010, 09:11:55 AM
I don't know if I care to see base capture,  but I would like to see base raids possible.  They didn't
capture fields with troop drops in WWI, but they quite often raided, strafed and bombed each others field.

We were having a pretty enjoyable evening last night but it ended crappy.  They would simply NOT leave their ack sphere.  We circled and circled at the mid point and they wouldn't meet us.  They just orbited in their ack-o-death.  Eventually people just impatient and inched over until we were fighting in their ack.  Half the deaths were due to ack.

If its going to be like that, we should have been able to just start de-acking and vulching and bombing thier tents into dust.  Not to capture it but just forthe principle of the thing.

Get rid of the ack-o=death.  Add a couple of light auto-ack and manned ack.  Give us small bomb loadouts (2x20lb?).

If the weenies won't come out of the ack, at least make it worth it to chase them into it.

IMHO,
Wab
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Masherbrum on March 13, 2010, 09:20:44 AM
Whew... alright, taking taking a deep breath for myself.

Okay.

I believe you've misread my posts, or started reading them with an expectation about what I was saying.  I don't believe I said it SHOULD be changed but rather that I believed it WOULD be changed.  **warning, personal opionion ahead** I don't think the arena will survive as a furball arena. I very well may be proven wrong in the future, at which time you are welcome to stick your tongue out at me and tell me I was wrong.

I have been trying to word my posts as neutral as possible, mostly asking questions and making observations.  If I didn't do that, I apologize.

Toad's post was spot on.  
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Jayhawk on March 13, 2010, 09:25:27 AM
Toad's post was spot on. 


What an excellent contribution to the conversation, would you like to share why you think that?
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Masherbrum on March 13, 2010, 10:37:16 AM
What an excellent contribution to the conversation, would you like to share why you think that?

It contributed more to this thread than your snide remark.  
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Jayhawk on March 13, 2010, 10:47:20 AM
It contributed more to this thread than your snide remark.   

All I'm wanting is a little explanation as to why you think Toad was right.  Now I'm being dead serious in saying that if you think I've been saying everyone has to play my way, call me out on it.  Pull up any of my quotes in this thread and I'll discuss them or if necessary, admit I was wrong :eek:  But just saying 'your opionion is wrong' is just ridiculous.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Pongo on March 13, 2010, 10:49:50 AM

However, I don't believe the arena will be able to remain popular with it's current set-up (i.e. furballs).  I'm sure HTC has some plan (I hope) for future development or expansion of WWI but I don't recall anything being said about it.  So, my question is, what do YOU think should be done to keep the WWI arenas from becoming a no man's land?  Or why do you believe the arena would be able to stand as is?

Should it be developed similar to current WWII arenas, base takes, bombers, etc?  Is WWI GV fighting really a viable concept to pursue? 

A lot of questions, just a discussion on the future of it.  Obviously it's still very early and there are a lot of bugs and minor issue to work out first, I'm just looking at the big picture.

It can stay as it is with more aircraft and with some fleshing out of what the front lines are so the battle doesnt push back to the radar puffy ack so fast.
I think it should be able to stay as it is because it is fun.
I dont think GVs, aircraft or base taking make any sense, if you tried to think about it instead of just posting this thread, you would see the same thing. Is he going to make calvary?  Or will the guys walk to the base? Maybe tunnel?

So, new planes. Some clouds, Different icon rules. Different implementation of the front lines and the puffy ack. the ability to ditch, walk back to base and get a new plane.
Really the most annoying thing about your post other then your declaration after 3 hours of the arena being up that it will die as it is. Is that you provide no real thought into what your proposing.  
And if you put that thought into it, you wouldn't have proposed it.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Pongo on March 13, 2010, 10:56:17 AM
Ya we deliberately formed up at the half way mark and the enemy eventually came out with at least equal numbers, I dove against their low guy to start things rolling and they literally where all headed back to their ack right after the merge.
I guess the head rush of landing those 3 ack kills and getting congratulated by their team mates was just to appealing.

Put their mothers house out at the half way point, and every time the enemy strafes it put screams of pain on the head sets and flash red out on the screens of everyone on the other side so they have to defend their mothers house.
Something.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Jayhawk on March 13, 2010, 11:02:55 AM
Really the most annoying thing about your post other then your declaration after 3 hours of the arena being up that it will die as it is. Is that you provide no real thought into what your proposing.  
And if you put that thought into it, you wouldn't have proposed it.

I had no intention of proposing where I thought it was going, I listed base taking, gv's, etc, just as examples because I figured they'd be brought up.  I think a lot of people have been misunderstanding that (and if it's happening that much it's probably the author's fault).

And yes, on the second day of the arena I asked "what's next?" because I wanted to start a conversation about it, if you thought it was too early to even have this conversation, no one was forcing you to join in.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Lusche on March 13, 2010, 11:03:13 AM
I don't know if I care to see base capture,  but I would like to see base raids possible.  They didn't
capture fields with troop drops in WWI, but they quite often raided, strafed and bombed each others field.

We were having a pretty enjoyable evening last night but it ended crappy.  They would simply NOT leave their ack sphere.  We circled and circled at the mid point and they wouldn't meet us.  They just orbited in their ack-o-death.  Eventually people just impatient and inched over until we were fighting in their ack.  Half the deaths were due to ack.

If its going to be like that, we should have been able to just start de-acking and vulching and bombing thier tents into dust.  Not to capture it but just forthe principle of the thing.

Get rid of the ack-o=death.  Add a couple of light auto-ack and manned ack.  Give us small bomb loadouts (2x20lb?).

While I do to some part agree with your observation, I have to say I don't agree with the conclusion.
Making fields raidable and ack destroyable will probably not generate more dogfights... just more hordes hovering over the bases.

That's why  I'm all for a few trargets away from the fields... no-mans land and /or behind the frontlines, while keeping the current field design and structure the way it is. That would ensure that everyone has a field to safely up from, and would also enable pure furballers to continue to do what they enjoy.

On the hordes... something I observed last night:

I do understand the concept of chesspiece loyalty. While not really following it, I'm not opposed to it. I do understand the concept of winnign the war, and the imbalances It produces.
What I simply do not get, where the massive, player generated hordes and imbalances between the 4 WWI arenas. I frequently hopped all 4 for a few hours last night, and found the country numbers way off, for example:

(http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/520/clipboard01cm.jpg)

This wasn't a moment only ... rooks were outnumbering both bish & knights for at least two hours. In other arenas, I experienced similar things with Knights and Bish. On top of that, local hordes did even attract even more and more green dots converging of them, even when there was only one or two enemy cons around... and the base can't be attacked or captured at all.


Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Toad on March 13, 2010, 11:23:21 AM
You can't make people relish the fight itself.

People either like the fight for itself or they like to <cough>win the war</cough>.

The ones that like to fight are the ones that come out into the middle. The ones that like to <cough>win</cough> are the ones hovering in their ack.

You can attempt to implement all the various techniques and strategies to make people engage. It won't work. You end up with what you have in the MAs. Hordewarrior, with various hordes trying to desperately avoid other hordes as they seek easy destruction of targets or strafing of trenches or field captures on the way to winning the war.

IMO, if the leave things as they are, eventually the ack huggers will either get bored and decide to fight or decide to go back to the MA. Either way it's a win for the WW1 setup.

It's going to take a few weeks for this to play out. In the end, if they leave it alone, WW1 will be populated by the folks that came to AH for the thrill of virtual air combat. After all, at present the only action in WW1 is....air combat. By default, if you're afraid to engage, you're going to be pretty bored in there pretty soon. I see that as a great thing.

If they start trying to put little gumdrops out to encourage the timid to fight, it will become just another hordewarrior MA with different planes.

All IMHO, of course.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Saxman on March 13, 2010, 11:40:20 AM
This may have been posted elsewhere: Observation balloons over No Man's Land. Destroying all of both country's balloons wins for your side. Map "resets," but just by having new balloons appear. No boot to lobby and change of bases, just a quick arena message and the balloons respawn. Additionally, each balloon will have a respawn timer (say, 15-20 minutes?) so if you don't destroy them relatively quickly they respawn and you have to destroy it again. This would do several things:

Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: EskimoJoe on March 13, 2010, 11:44:52 AM
This may have been posted elsewhere: Observation balloons over No Man's Land. Destroying all of both country's balloons wins for your side. Map "resets," but just by having new balloons appear. No boot to lobby and change of bases, just a quick arena message and the balloons respawn. Additionally, each balloon will have a respawn timer (say, 15-20 minutes?) so if you don't destroy them relatively quickly they respawn and you have to destroy it again. This would do several things:
...


Oh my god, really Saxman?

Another brilliant Idea?

YES!  :D
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Toad on March 13, 2010, 11:54:37 AM

Give objective-minded players something to get their interest.

They already have this; it's called the WW2 MA.

That entire post is an example of putting gumdrops out there to encourage those who really don't like to fight. It will escalate; there will never be enough gumdrops. Then you end up with the WW2 MAs.

Why not a bunch of floating cherries, grapes and bananas? Fly through enough 'fruit powerups' and your side wins the war!!!!
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Jayhawk on March 13, 2010, 12:03:55 PM
Why not a bunch of floating cherries, grapes and bananas? Fly through enough 'fruit powerups' and your side wins the war!!!!

 :lol
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Saxman on March 13, 2010, 12:07:54 PM
They already have this; it's called the WW2 MA.

That entire post is an example of putting gumdrops out there to encourage those who really don't like to fight. It will escalate; there will never be enough gumdrops. Then you end up with the WW2 MAs.

Why not a bunch of floating cherries, grapes and bananas? Fly through enough 'fruit powerups' and your side wins the war!!!!

Y'know what Toad? Just shut it already. I'm sick of your "My way is right and anyone who disagrees with me doesn't matter" attitude. This is NOT your game. It's not my game. It's not ANYONES' game but hitech's. If he wants to put the sharks with fricken lazer beams on their heads in WWI he damn will CAN. You are NOT the only person playing this game, and whether you like it or not other people have different opinions on what they want to see, and they have every right to voice their opinion. There's people here who are loving the WWI planes but want to see something more than just the furballing. Why do they have to be "stuck" with WWII when they WANT to do this with WWI planes? If you want to just furball in WWII planes you already HAVE the DA. Why can't people who want objectives in WWI have an arena for it as well? Because it's not YOUR way of playing and HAS to be wrong? Get off your high horse and STFU, because you are NOT the one who makes the decisions of what goes into the game.

Because I have news for you: I GUARANTEE that at some point there's going to be some form of objective-based play introduced in WWI. It's not because people are requesting it, but because of what HTC already said about the WWI arenas. HTC says WWI will be used as a test-bed for new gameplay mechanics in the WWII Mains before adapting them to the Mains. That means if they want to look at a new way to approach the strategic, tactical or "win the war" gameplay in the mains, it's getting tested in WWI.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Toad on March 13, 2010, 12:14:35 PM
What's really funny is that all of you clowns accusing ME of trying to make people play "my way" are demanding people play YOUR way.

Of course, the WW2 MA is already YOUR way. You have all the objectives you could ever want. You won't be satisfied with that though; you want all arenas in AH to be as screwed up as the MA.

You guys are the ones that can't accept any other way than your own.

I don't give a fig that you've got what you want in the WW2 MA. Makes no difference to me at all. I don't have to play there. I'm happy you all have objectives to steamroll.

What I do care about is that there is now a place for another type of player in the AH universe. We have that right now in WW1.

Of course, you guys can't stand that and have to change it to what you already have.

As far as shutting it, dream on pal.

You can yell at your countrymen on range channel and maybe have some effect. (Are they not playing YOUR way?) Your little tantrums here don't bother me a bit though.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Lusche on March 13, 2010, 12:23:40 PM
It's going to take a few weeks for this to play out. In the end, if they leave it alone, WW1 will be populated by the folks that came to AH for the thrill of virtual air combat. After all, at present the only action in WW1 is....air combat.

To some of us, air combat is more than just having constant merry-go rounds at 500ft or pre-arranged duels.

I am convinced there's a way to increase diversity of combat situations without landgrabbing & base killing, and without killing the basic "furball setup" That can indeed stay in the WW2 MA's.

Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: BaldEagl on March 13, 2010, 12:26:21 PM
First of all I don't think the bases in WWI should be able to be destroyed or taken.  Either of those things effectively stops the fight but there should be a way to allow those who like bombers and/or GV's to play in the sandbox.  So first of all make the airfield defenses impervious to GV's, bombers and fighters.

If bases are out of the equation as an objective then theGVers and bombers need something else.  

I would propose 3-6 GV bases at the edges of no man's land with a capturable objective in the middle.  No need to drop troops or anything.  Simple occupation of the objective is the purpose.  Capture of the objective immediatly gives players actively participating in the capture some reward like extra points to their GV (or bomber) score. There would be no map reset so all battles would remain fluid.  There would have to be maybe 2 tanks added to accomplish this.

For the bomber guys, the area surrounding the capturable objective in the middle of no mans land would be surrounded by barbed wire and other obsticals to the GV's.  These obsticals would need to be bombed to allow the GV's through (GV's probably wouldn't be able to do much damage to barbed wire).  The bombers wouldn't carry bombs capable of destroying or disabling a GV but be fully capable of destroying the obsticals.  Once destroyed the obsticals would remain down for 15 minutes.  Again, a couple of bombers would be needed.

With this, the GVer's get to play in the sandbox without upsetting the furballs and without being bombed out of the game.  Bombers get to play and give the fighters another target.

I could also see the use of observation ballons in this scenario to spot enemy GV's which would show up as radar dots on the GVer's maps.  These ballons would be limited in number near each GV base, could be destroyed by fighters or bombers guns, and would also remain down for 15 minutes before respawning.  Yet another objective for those fighters who don't care to furball.

Something like this totally seperates the "win the war" players from the furballers allowing everyone to play the game they want without destroying, but in fact adding to, what WWI is now.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Saxman on March 13, 2010, 12:38:08 PM
Where does it say that having an objective for people to work for doesn't mean you can't play "your way?" What the frell does it matter to you WHY the other guy is fighting, so long as you're fighting? What would be the big difference between furballing between bases like you have now, and furballing around a balloon? Is the fight inferior just because your opponent is fighting towards and objective?

Well gee, then you better warn the 500 people that fly FSO three times a month, or the hundreds that fly snapshots and scenarios. They're fighting an inferior fight because there's a purpose behind it beyond just fighting!

It's a completely misguided notion that "landgrabbing" kills fights. When I'm fighting to take or defend a base, and that base falls I RARELY see the fight just end. Do you want to know what ACTUALLY happens? More times than not the "losing" side immediately ups from the next base over to take it back, while the "winner" turns to the next target in the line and the fight starts all over again. I've spent hours moving from one base to the next in a constant running battle and never had a lack of targets to shoot at. So WHAT if the guy you're fighting against is fighting for some objective than just the fight? If he's fighting just as hard does it REALLY matter why?

And btw, if the hordeing and ganging is all the fault of the landgrabbers, why not explain why hordeing and ganging at furball lake in the DA--where 90% of the population is sitting at 20k in Tempests, 4-Hogs, and P-51Ds--is just as bad?
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Elfie on March 13, 2010, 12:50:32 PM
Toad's right Sax.....you already have all the objective oriented game play you could ever ask for.....over in the WWII arenas.

The WWI arenas offer a different style of game play. Why do you think HiTech needs to change that?

For HTC this could very easily be another revenue stream by drawing in another type of player. About a year or so ago I left AH because I'd lost interest in the WWII arenas because of the style of game play there. The WWI arenas got me to subscribe again and last night I had a blast. Thanks for the fun times HTC!!

If HTC made the WWI arenas more of the same old same old (ie..WWII MA) I'd likely cancel my account again.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Elfie on March 13, 2010, 12:52:34 PM
Quote
And btw, if the hordeing and ganging is all the fault of the landgrabbers, why not explain why hordeing and ganging at furball lake in the DA--where 90% of the population is sitting at 20k in Tempests, 4-Hogs, and P-51Ds--is just as bad?

Tempests, Spit XIV's, C-Hogs, -4Hogs etc are all perked in the DA now.....
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Wingnutt on March 13, 2010, 12:58:12 PM
railyards to attack, traines, bridges, factories..

add em, let em be targets..   but make them have NO impact on the airbases, leave the airbases indestructible.

that way people who want to attack/bomb a target, can, and can be engaged while doing so and that whole scenario can be played out.. which is good, adds diversity to the type of fights, face it your not going to get a chance to attack a bomber if there is nothing for them to bomb..

but with airfields unaffected by the strat targets and being unkillable..  the furballers can still furball all day long without worrying about ANYTHING interrupting.


there, nothing either sside can cry about..  you wanna bomb or attack a target, ya can, wanna furball, ya can.. and neither will harm the other's fun.

only argument against this idea would be that it would ALLOW people more choices and not FORCE them to fly your way I.E.  " I dont want any strat, because people will go attack it instead of dieing in my furball"  well if thats how you feel, your a selfish little kid and need to grow up.  nobody should be forced to either play 1 particular way or quit.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Lusche on March 13, 2010, 01:11:40 PM
If HTC made the WWI arenas more of the same old same old (ie..WWII MA) I'd likely cancel my account again.

I'm quite optimistic that this won't happen.

But note that almost none of us thinking about ways to add something to wwI gameplay variety is actually asking for WWII gameplay and captures in WWI.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Toad on March 13, 2010, 01:25:44 PM
What you all miss is that your suggestions will, without fail, evolve to the present MA.

Some of us have been around since beta. We watched as this little thing or that little thing was begged for and received. Each of these things was never going to impact the other guy's fun, it would just add variety and objectives for people that didn't want to fly fighters or whatever.

Except that's not how it works. The one thing that non-fighter players can't stand is NOT having an effect. Thus, things get added to make problems for other players when a certain segment or activity is ignored.

Laz has probably posted on this hundreds of times here. He's about the most cogent and concise observer of MA behavior and the effects of the changes. Search for his posts on toolshedders. I believe it was he that originated the term.

Take cherry powerups. HT could sprinkle cherry powerups all over the skies. Some people would fly through them and win the war. When those people noticed that nobody really gave a damn about their huge victory over cherry powerups, the clamoring would begin for cherry powerups to have an effect on the arena. It has been this way with every addition to the MA. The result is the shambles you have there now.

I realize that it's likely the majority of the player base needs cherry powerups to hold their interest. I realize that HT may eventually cater to that mentality once again with WW1. It's all good; I don't mind arenas where you guys steamroll the cherry powerups. I just don't go there.

I just hope he will leave at least ONE of the WW1 arenas just the way they are right now. 100 guys that fight make for a whale of a great game, with no need of cherry powerups.

Of course, I'd expect the whining that the guys in that arena are spoiling your fun by not coming to a place where you can affect their fun by flying through cherry powerups.

Some people are just here for the knife fight in the phone booth though.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Saxman on March 13, 2010, 01:32:58 PM
Toad's right Sax.....you already have all the objective oriented game play you could ever ask for.....over in the WWII arenas.


Yeah, and before the WWI arenas, furballers had all the furball-oriented game play THEY could ever ask for.......over in the Dueling Arena.

Nice job swinging and missing at the frelling point. Why should furballers be the only ones to get what they want from the WWI arenas? Why is it so unacceptable that guys who love the WWI birds be able to have something more objective-oriented. Just HOW does that interfere with the furballers? Like I said: What does it matter WHY your opponent is there to fight as long as he FIGHTS? What does it take away from you if I dogfight you to keep you from stopping Lusche from popping a balloon you're defending? You don't care about the balloons, you're just there to fight. And in the end you get your furball, I get my objective. Are you REALLY that obsessed over principle that you'd find the fight any less enjoyable?

As Lusche said: VERY few people are even advocating rolling bases in WWI to begin with. That just wasn't the nature of the war on the Western Front. I think the observation balloons over No Man's Land would be the perfect way to handle this as it doesn't keep the furballers from furballing (no hangers to drop, no ords or fuel to pork, no runways to vulch) and gives the rest something to fight for (defend/pop the balloons). But GOD FORBID someone suggest something other than furballing.

Put away your torches and pitchforks and actually LISTEN.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Elfie on March 13, 2010, 01:46:56 PM
Quote
Put away your torches and pitchforks and actually LISTEN.

First, maybe you should practice what you preach.   :)

Second, aircraft had very little impact on the outcome of WWI. Bombs were initially dropped over the sides. Fighters were used to down enemy recon planes and artillery spotters and of course other fighters. The use of aircraft in war was in it's infancy and simply didn't have a significant impact on the war.

Quote
Yeah, and before the WWI arenas, furballers had all the furball-oriented game play THEY could ever ask for.......over in the Dueling Arena.

How many arenas do the toolshedders have dedicated to them? How many more need to be dedicated to the toolshedders? Furballers need to be relegated to one arena and never get another?

Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: bj229r on March 13, 2010, 01:48:17 PM
I'd love to see morning fog come a few hundred feet up from the ground....haze from smoke of the endless artillery fire mixed with it...
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Bronk on March 13, 2010, 01:53:08 PM


Toolshedders have enough room as it is.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: BaldEagl on March 13, 2010, 02:03:06 PM
I was thinking about my earlier idea a little and maybe all you need is a small hill in the middle of no mans land with a few tank bunkers built in that would provide a defensed view of the surrounding battlefield.  This would allow for some view even when the spotter ballons were down.  Then there wouldn't be a need to reward anyone with points as it would be an inherently valuable objective for the GVers.  They would still need the bombers help in getting it and, of course, if there were no bombers helping they could still battle around the hill and even fire at enemies on the hill without having to go through the obsticals.

I just don't see any downside to this.  No interference with the furballs, no map resets and more things for even the fighters to do.

Any argument against something like this is just selfishness or snobbishness.  "Mommy, these kids are playing in my sandbox."  Grow up.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Lusche on March 13, 2010, 02:04:10 PM
First, maybe you should practice what you preach.   :)

Second, aircraft had very little impact on the outcome of WWI. Bombs were initially dropped over the sides. Fighters were used to down enemy recon planes and artillery spotters and of course other fighters. The use of aircraft in war was in it's infancy and simply didn't have a significant impact on the war.

And that's why I explicitly not asking for captured bases or the old MA win-the war, reset the map gameplay.  :)

But when I read comments like
Toolshedders have enough room as it is.
I get the feeling nobody is actually reading. ;)

I proposed:
- fields stay uncapturabe
- fields stay protected by puffy ack so that any potential vulcher or toolshedder will be blown to pieces before even getting close enough
- a few added objectives away from the bases

That would not interfere with the swirling furballs between the bases (hangars can't get shut down, bases won't get captured by sneak NOE raids) at all. You could just choose if you stay there.. or venture out to do something else.

But I think I'm done for now. I made myself as clear as I can, and I will leave this thread for hysterical people of both "sides" ;)

Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: 68ZooM on March 13, 2010, 02:07:18 PM
A good place for WW1 to go is with 2 arena's that is the only way it will keep everyones interest's, face it were going to need two, Toad has a great point just leave one the way it is and let it run its course.

Now an idea for the other arena i think has been explained by several people all with good ideas ,A simple map or maps with 3 non capable airfields, In the center each map would have a large strat city broken into zones with fuel ammo and vehicle/plane factories scattered thru out the city the object for the bombers or WW1 GV's is to occupy (cap a flag)and destroy buildings within the zones, the more zones you have capped would determine which country occupies the majority of the city theres no winning the war no map change just who occupies the most percentage of the city.

Same plane set as there is now with the addition of a couple of WW1 era bombers, or if not mistaken they just dropped them over the side? and some WW1 era tanks, recon/spottin Zeppelins could be used in the future also, the gameplay would be a variety for everyone, bombers would have a strat targets ,Tanks would have strat and other tanks to kill, fighters can escort bombers to targets and also intercept bombers, fighters can still fight with fighters or bombers or maned zeppelins, theres alot of great possiablities, this is just an idea thrown out there, one of many BUT WW1 has to cater to all so we will need 2 WW1 arena's
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Toad on March 13, 2010, 02:11:17 PM
No interference with the furballs, no map resets and more things for even the fighters to do.


See my post above. All the changes to the WW2 MA as it evolved from beta started like this and with the exact same reasoning/justification.

However, the people doing these things...in your example, gv'ers and bombers on the hill.... would soon become unhappy that they had no effect on 'the war'.

Bombers in the MA started out just that way. First, they just wanted some targets to drop bombs upon; that would be so cool, they would be SO happy. Then, they needed the targets they hit to have some effect, so their missions had some "purpose"; it they had that, they'd be content. So they were able to deny fuel or drop radar. But that wasn't enough, oh no. Then they wanted destroyable fighter hangers so they could stop the enemy for upping and help 'win the war'.

It works like this EVERY time. The things you propose seem so innocuous at first but they ALWAYS lead to the the current MA. ALWAYS.

It's just a matter of knowing your history.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Toad on March 13, 2010, 02:15:59 PM
A good place for WW1 to go is with 2 arena's that is the only way it will keep everyones interest's, face it were going to need two, Toad has a great point just leave one the way it is and let it run its course.

I'm cool with that. I just hope we don't get stuck again with a tiny corner of the Dueling Arena with a tiny little Furball Lake. An arena with the current WW1 map and gameplay would suit me just fine.


Quote
...A simple map or maps with 3 non capable airfields, In the center each map would have a large strat city broken into zones with fuel ammo and vehicle/plane factories scattered thru out the city the object for the bombers or WW1 GV's is to occupy (cap a flag)and destroy buildings within the zones, the more zones you have capped would determine which country occupies the majority of the city theres no winning the war no map change just who occupies the most percentage of the city...

Again, not to overemphasize, you need to realize it will NEVER stay like that. It will evolve with a series of seemingly innocuous requests until you have recreated the shambles of the WW2 MA. It's just the nature of that type of player. The history, the truth of this, is right here on this BBS if you do some looking.

But good luck to yas. Just leave some space for people to whom that dross is anathema. Please.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Elfie on March 13, 2010, 02:23:42 PM
Quote
And that's why I explicitly not asking for captured bases or the old MA win-the war, reset the map gameplay.  Smiley

My post wasn't really directed towards you.   :)

Quote
fields stay protected by puffy ack so that any potential vulcher or toolshedder will be blown to pieces before even getting close enough

I saw some tard in WWI 2nd arena last night trying to deack A6.   :rofl
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: horble on March 13, 2010, 02:23:56 PM
Guess I'll chime in here..  First off, I absolutely love the WWI arena we have now, good furballs, and able to get some 1vs1's in the middle.  Great fun.

I like the idea of having a couple arenas, with one of them staying exactly as it is now.  In the other I would love it to be more of a historical arena, with frontlines, the same uncapturable and unvulchable bases.  Observation balloons over the frontline, some rail depots to bomb, that kinda stuff.  It'd be just fine with me if you couldn't win the war there either, airpower never really made a huge impact on the war effort, after all. 

Hell, I'd even like flying over the front in a Be2c or a Rumpler and doing 'photo reconnaisance'.  Flying over the front and intercepting two-seaters in my scout would be a blast as well.  Just being able to really immerse myself would be great, but I'm probably in the minority there.  *sigh*

Not saying I'd never hop into the furball arena either, I absolutely love it in there.


But it would be nice, maybe one day, to have something a little more.

*dons flame retardent suit*
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: 68ZooM on March 13, 2010, 02:26:07 PM
No kinda like i said 2 arena's, leave one just as it is now the only changes would be the addition of new fighter planes, the second would be something like i suggested and others have, whatever way they evolve into is going to be up or the fault of the players in those arena's, like i have always said and always will, theres such a cross mixture of playing styles all trying to play there way. everyone have a good day  :salute

edit... this was in responce to toads last post, thought i hit quote
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Elfie on March 13, 2010, 02:35:38 PM
Quote
No kinda like i said 2 arena's, leave one just as it is now the only changes would be the addition of new fighter planes, the second would be something like i suggested and others have, whatever way they evolve into is going to be up or the fault of the players in those arena's, like i have always said and always will, theres such a cross mixture of playing styles all trying to play there way. everyone have a good day

I could live with that.  :)
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: sluggish on March 13, 2010, 02:55:40 PM
Here's a funny little experiment.  Up a Camel in the DA.  Just put it on autopilot and point it toward the middle of turd lake.  See how long it takes for some tard to pick you in his still free uber p51d.

This is the mindset of the people we're dealing with here.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: BaldEagl on March 13, 2010, 03:11:40 PM
It's just a matter of knowing your history.


Well I do know my history.  Back in AW (first version) there were GV's and bombers.  There were strats for the bombers to go after which had a minimal impact on the game (except the Spit factory) and only three capturable bases on the European map.  I don't remember anyone complaining about the bombers or the GV's back then and the furballs were much like the current WWI arenas.  What I'm proposing would have less impact than back then.

Again I don't see a downside as long as HT sticks to limiting the impact on the fighter game.  Ultimately that would be up to him, not you or I.  I think everyone could coexist in a limited environment yet still let everyone play in a way that's expanded over the current method.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Elfie on March 13, 2010, 03:21:00 PM
Well I do know my history.  Back in AW (first version) there were GV's and bombers.  There were strats for the bombers to go after which had a minimal impact on the game (except the Spit factory) and only three capturable bases on the European map.  I don't remember anyone complaining about the bombers or the GV's back then and the furballs were much like the current WWI arenas.  What I'm proposing would have less impact than back then.

Again I don't see a downside as long as HT sticks to limiting the impact on the fighter game.  Ultimately that would be up to him, not you or I.  I think everyone could coexist in a limited environment yet still let everyone play in a way that's expanded over the current method.

The problem with your AirWarrior example is that AirWarrior arena play evolved, just like AH arena play evolved. It eventually got to the point where arena play in AW was dominated by the win the war crowd. We haven't seen that happen in Aces High yet.....oh wait......
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Redd on March 13, 2010, 04:13:05 PM
Here's a funny little experiment.  Up a Camel in the DA.  Just put it on autopilot and point it toward the middle of turd lake.  See how long it takes for some tard to pick you in his still free uber p51d.

This is the mindset of the people we're dealing with here.


Sorry to disagree , but you would more likely be jumped by 1 p51, 2 tempests, 2 Chogs and a zeke.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Motherland on March 13, 2010, 04:14:45 PM

Sorry to disagree , but you would more likely be jumped by 1 p51, 2 tempests, 2 Chogs and a zeke.
Perked planes are now perked in the DA.  :x
Or at least they were for a couple days right after 2.18 came out.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Karnak on March 13, 2010, 04:37:29 PM
One point I'd make about WWI is that the aircraft played a huge role in the war not ending.  Any gamey mechanism to have the aircraft win the war would be silly in the extreme.

About the only strategic mechanism I could see for WWI stuff would be photo-recon missions, but what effect they'd have on the game I can't imagine.  They certainly wouldn't win the war, as their main effect was to make enemy movements all known, blocking any ability for either side to gain a real advantage.  Maybe the guys flying the photo-recon missions could get points or something, not that the points would do anything in the game, just help their rankings.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Toad on March 13, 2010, 05:03:33 PM
Well I do know my history.

If so, you understand these seemingly innocuous ideas will evolve into the morass that is the MA.

Quote
Back in AW (first version) there were GV's and bombers.  There were strats for the bombers to go after which had a minimal impact on the game (except the Spit factory) and only three capturable bases on the European map.  I don't remember anyone complaining about the bombers or the GV's back then and the furballs were much like the current WWI arenas.  What I'm proposing would have less impact than back then.


It was an Atoll map with three bases on an island in the middle. Each country had an uncapturable big island of their own. The GVs were ONLY in the middle. Bombers did have absolutely minimal effect on gameplay, although they were fun to fly because you could put so many live gunners in them.

It was a great game; if you think about it, you'll understand why. It was great because it was focused on the fight. IIRC, the Spit factory even popped back up in 15 minutes. So everything besides fighting in airplanes was a definitely peripheral, minor part of the gameplay. THAT'S why it was so good.

If we went back to that exact model, map and all, here I'd have no complaints at all.

However, as Elfie pointed out already, AW evolved too. It evolved so well that it died from lack of interest in 2001. Sorta the same way the MAs are evolving.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: sluggish on March 13, 2010, 05:16:17 PM
I'm all for the cherry power-ups if my camel makes a gulping sound when it eats them.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: BaldEagl on March 13, 2010, 06:12:47 PM
It was an Atoll map with three bases on an island in the middle. Each country had an uncapturable big island of their own. The GVs were ONLY in the middle.

GV's were available in each country near the big center lake but could be driven over the river bridges into the other counties.  I remember driving GV's from AZ land to CZ land and flattening I think it was C5 IIRC.  You could flatten a base but couldn't capture it at the time (except those three bases).

It evolved so well that it died from lack of interest in 2001. Sorta the same way the MAs are evolving.

AW didn't die do to lack of interest.  It died because EA bought it and killed it.  No other reason.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: LesterBoffo on March 13, 2010, 06:13:11 PM

 Make the "second" arena a 150X150 kilometer square of Central Flanders, with Arras and Cambrai near the center, with the late 1917 no-man's land doing it's sweeping "S" turn down the middle.  You can have most of the airfields that were historically significant close to the front, and yet have room on the edges for bomber/obs squad airfields for those that like to take the long scenic route to their targets.  You've got the Somme valley to the south, and Vimy Ridge and Lille to the North.  It's fairly accurate historically, and it's got enough windiness to the front that it doesn't get too boring.

 Just as a reminder, Most observation balloon stations were operated somewhat back from the front about 5 to 10 kilometers.  One also needs to remember that the prevailing wind on the Western front was predominately from the West and favored the Germans, who flew mainly an aggressive defensive strategy.  There were never any Allied airfield raids made by German  Fighter Squads, and there were fairly little Entente initiated, German airfield attacks.

  If any of you remember playing RedBaron3D, the quickest way to loose most of your mission's squad mates was to do an airfield strafe and low level bombing.  The MG nests and Flack will murder most of the squad.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Elfie on March 13, 2010, 06:15:20 PM
Quote
AW didn't die do to lack of interest.  It died because EA bought it and killed it.  No other reason.

AW no longer had a large enough player base, so EA killed it.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: 68ZooM on March 13, 2010, 06:21:31 PM
AW no longer had a large enough player base, so EA killed it.

No, same player base just not "big" enough for EA's greed
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Ack-Ack on March 13, 2010, 06:23:33 PM
AW no longer had a large enough player base, so EA killed it.

At the time it closed, AW had EA's 2nd largest subscription base at little under 40,000 (38,000 IIC).  Only UO had more subscribers.


ack-ack
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Elfie on March 13, 2010, 06:47:02 PM
At the time it closed, AW had EA's 2nd largest subscription base at little under 40,000 (38,000 IIC).  Only UO had more subscribers.


ack-ack

I find that hard to believe.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: bj229r on March 13, 2010, 07:16:05 PM
AW no longer had a large enough player base, so EA killed it.
That last big patch was a colossal screwup (map gridlines were even ruined) and apparently, they had no more money allocated to pay whoever wrote the patch...game was totally screwed, folks knew it, and left in droves
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Rino on March 13, 2010, 10:07:41 PM
I find that hard to believe.

     I don't.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Saxman on March 13, 2010, 10:31:29 PM
BACK ON TOPIC, separate WWI "Main Arenas" and WWI Dueling Arenas is not a bad compromise, and one I'd have no problems with. Would it really have been so hard to suggest this option in the first place instead of just screaming "NO STRATEGERY!!!!!"? Furballers that don't want to play with objectives at all can go to one and let the guys who want whatever sort of objective-based play HTC would implement in WWI can go to the other.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: sluggish on March 13, 2010, 11:41:35 PM
BACK ON TOPIC, separate WWI "Main Arenas" and WWI Dueling Arenas is not a bad compromise, and one I'd have no problems with. Would it really have been so hard to suggest this option in the first place instead of just screaming "NO STRATEGERY!!!!!"? Furballers that don't want to play with objectives at all can go to one and let the guys who want whatever sort of objective-based play HTC would implement in WWI can go to the other.

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,285214.msg3611828.html#msg3611828

I suppose you missed this post?

It seems to me that the one who started this thread and the ones who are making the most noise in it are the ones who seek change in these arenas??  For some reason it's not enough to leave well enough alone and seek a WW1 arena with strat...  You want to CHANGE the existing arenas and FORCE everyone to play YOUR game YOUR way.  BUT...  Instead of facing and accepting you shortcoming (the need to micro manage and continuously scream "LOOK AT ME, LOOK AT ME") you wish to FORCE everyone who doesn't agree with your point of view to just go along with your point of view.  Because.... Well....  Because...  You know what's best for all of us and we would do well to just let the smart people steer the boat, right?
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Pongo on March 14, 2010, 12:10:52 AM
I still haven't seen a viable strategy game suggested for WW1.
Will the troops repel out of zepplins? Will they walk to the enemy base?
Will the jabos drop their 100kg bomb load and blow up the enemy tent hangers?
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Masherbrum on March 14, 2010, 12:14:19 AM
I still haven't seen a viable strategy game suggested for WW1.
Will the troops repel out of zepplins? Will they walk to the enemy base?
Will the jabos drop their 100kg bomb load and blow up the enemy tent hangers?

Leave my observation balloon alone man!!!!!
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Toad on March 14, 2010, 12:21:13 AM
We don't want a dueling arena because what you end up with is a little bitty Furball Lake like we have in the DA.

What we want is a real map...gee, like what we have in WW1 right now. With terrain features and a few bases; at least more than 3 bases. Canyons, trees, buildings, hills...terrain. We don't need cherry, grape and banana powerups, or wars to win. What we need is a place to fight that's like a regular arena.

Then no one would care if you had your cherry powerup arena.

Simple see?

But Sluggish has a good point. You guys are the least tolerant; it's just like you in this thread. You castigate me for voicing my opinion; you tell me to "shut it". Next thing you know, you post this BS:

Quote
Saxman:

whether you like it or not other people have different opinions on what they want to see, and they have every right to voice their opinion.

Yeah, everybody has a right to voice their opinion EXCEPT me. You clowns are such hypocrites.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Saxman on March 14, 2010, 12:37:40 AM
We don't want a dueling arena because what you end up with is a little bitty Furball Lake like we have in the DA.

What we want is a real map...gee, like what we have in WW1 right now. With terrain features and a few bases; at least more than 3 bases. Canyons, trees, buildings, hills...terrain. We don't need cherry, grape and banana powerups, or wars to win. What we need is a place to fight that's like a regular arena.

Then no one would care if you had your cherry powerup arena.

Simple see?

But Sluggish has a good point. You guys are the least tolerant; it's just like you in this thread. You castigate me for voicing my opinion; you tell me to "shut it". Next thing you know, you post this BS:

Yeah, everybody has a right to voice their opinion EXCEPT me. You clowns are such hypocrites.

What the do you think the WWI arenas ARE? It IS the Furball Lake. At 1/4 speed. All the same gang tard BS that goes on there is happening in the WWI arenas. It doesn't matter how many bases each side has, when they're all massed in the same blasted circle it's still one big DA furball area.

What *I* was getting sick of is the way you were telling off everyone whose opinion differed from yours. You didn't want to compromise. You didn't want to see other options. You FLAT OUT TOLD EVERYONE WHO SUGGESTED SOME FORM OF OBJECTIVE TO GO AWAY TO THE WWII ARENAS. You NEVER offered any sort of alternate idea such as the split arenas. And then you go posting your smart-assed "Cherry Power Up" BS. Where the HELL does that come from? Who the HELL suggested any sort of BS like that?

The first thing out of your, Karaya's and Bronk's mouth in ANY thread this comes up is NONONONONONONONONONONONO! Even when I suggested additions ONLY FOR THE SAKE OF FSO, SCENARIOS AND SNAPSHOTS, The SAME group of people were screaming NONONONO! And then the people who bring it up are told STFU and go play in WWII. Period. That's it. No ifs, ands or buts. Didn't matter WHAT they said. The only satisfying answer for you all was "Go back to WWII." And THAT'S when I get fed up.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Toad on March 14, 2010, 12:39:28 AM
Thank you.

Once again, you prove that you, and by extension your kind, are the most intolerant players in the game.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Slamfire on March 14, 2010, 12:47:14 AM
(http://www.rotheblog.com/images/arcade/artwork/mspacman/twobitsbezel_fruit.jpg)
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Elfie on March 14, 2010, 01:02:00 AM
What the do you think the WWI arenas ARE? It IS the Furball Lake. At 1/4 speed. All the same gang tard BS that goes on there is happening in the WWI arenas. It doesn't matter how many bases each side has, when they're all massed in the same blasted circle it's still one big DA furball area.

What *I* was getting sick of is the way you were telling off everyone whose opinion differed from yours. You didn't want to compromise. You didn't want to see other options. You FLAT OUT TOLD EVERYONE WHO SUGGESTED SOME FORM OF OBJECTIVE TO GO AWAY TO THE WWII ARENAS. You NEVER offered any sort of alternate idea such as the split arenas. And then you go posting your smart-assed "Cherry Power Up" BS. Where the HELL does that come from? Who the HELL suggested any sort of BS like that?

The first thing out of your, Karaya's and Bronk's mouth in ANY thread this comes up is NONONONONONONONONONONONO! Even when I suggested additions ONLY FOR THE SAKE OF FSO, SCENARIOS AND SNAPSHOTS, The SAME group of people were screaming NONONONO! And then the people who bring it up are told STFU and go play in WWII. Period. That's it. No ifs, ands or buts. Didn't matter WHAT they said. The only satisfying answer for you all was "Go back to WWII." And THAT'S when I get fed up.

First, Toad never told you to go to the WWII arenas. He simply told you that everything you are asking for, you already have.....in the WWII arenas.

Second, exactly how do you expect to accomplish any of the objectives listed in this thread? Ground fire was lethal to WWI planes and it's thought that a soldier on the ground killed the Red Baron. Balloons/Zeppelins had lots of wires around them and were defended with AAA and it was nearly suicidal to attack them.

Other than recon flights planes in WWI didn't have any strategic offensive value. In light of that, what you are asking for is kinda silly.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: LesterBoffo on March 14, 2010, 01:30:15 AM


Other than recon flights planes in WWI didn't have any strategic offensive value. In light of that, what you are asking for is kinda silly.


 Actually depending on who does the telling there were some examples of strategic missions.  One of the earliest was Happe's (GC 25) Bomber Group which had been harassing Rhine Valley industries from Alsace.  Their biggest mission was the Oct 16, 1916 bombing raid on the Mauser rifle works in Obendorf auf Neckar.   They were joined by non other than RNAS #3 and The Escadrille Amercaine 124.  Lufberry, Mason, and Collinshaw were among those that flew in this raid.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: WMLute on March 14, 2010, 01:33:55 AM
I find that hard to believe.

EA bought Kesmai (AirWarrior) so they could get into bed with AOL and run the AOL Games Channel.

The demise of AW had nothing what so ever to do with a lack of a subscription base.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Yeager on March 14, 2010, 01:35:20 AM
I see no reason why the WW1 arena(s) could not eventually have some early tanks, bombers, observation ballons, Zeppelins, towns and fields to capture with wars to be won.  Frankly it wouldn't bother me to see the game evolve like that over the next dozen years or so, but I am not hard up for it at the moment.  I am having a blast playing the WW1 game right now as is.

Do the collisions bother me?  No, not really a problem for me.  Do the HOs bother me? No...they are far less effective and far easier to deal with in the absence of heavy cannon and rapid closing speeds.  About the only difficult thing that has happened that I can see so far is some side imbalancing, but it seems to be very fluid at the moment.

Lastly, just let the current set-up settle in for a few months.  The late war peeps wont be around once the novelty wears off and the regulars will start to get their dope lined up making for some intense A2A combat (some already have, myself excluded).
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Elfie on March 14, 2010, 01:44:17 AM
EA bought Kesmai (AirWarrior) so they could get into bed with AOL and run the AOL Games Channel.

The demise of AW had nothing what so ever to do with a lack of a subscription base.

I saw arenas that rarely filled up. Scoreboards that listed the top 200 players per arena and most of them hardly had any score at all. FR community was mostly gone. Where were all these subscribers?

And if there were 40,000 as Ack Ack suggests, then why was the game shut down? At that rate, they were raking in $400,000 per month before paying the bills but yet EA was willing to sell the game for $250,000? (That was a figure I saw tossed around by people who were looking into buying AW to keep it going.) The numbers just don't add up.

By the time AW got shut down it was very rare to see a CPID that I didn't recognize.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Elfie on March 14, 2010, 01:45:38 AM

 Actually depending on who does the telling there were some examples of strategic missions.  One of the earliest was Happe's (GC 25) Bomber Group which had been harassing Rhine Valley industries from Alsace.  Their biggest mission was the Oct 16, 1916 bombing raid on the Mauser rifle works in Obendorf auf Neckar.   They were joined by non other than RNAS #3 and The Escadrille Amercaine 124.  Lufberry, Mason, and Collinshaw were among those that flew in this raid.

Yes, there were bomber groups and they did run missions but they were wildly inaccurate and they had very little, if any effect on the war.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: LesterBoffo on March 14, 2010, 03:16:03 AM
Yes, there were bomber groups and they did run missions but they were wildly inaccurate and they had very little, if any effect on the war.

 Well as compared to what, at that time?

  From Mason's book the "Escadrille Layfayette", the raid on Obendorf was a success and had earned a price on Happe's head from the German Air command.

 I mean we're talking about the infancy of flight here, and the technology of the aircraft at the time was progressing in leaps that were almost analogous to the progress of computer development.  So yeah, by WWII standards, they weren't doing much.   But, if what you said was true, then why didn't the various air arms just stick to camera obs and barrage direction. Obviously there was enough of an incremental effect.

  That you have RFC 100 flying successful night bombing missions in Flanders from mid 1917 and then transfer to Verdun and join the fledgling AEF in extensive raids on Metz and the surrounding airfields and troop concentrations near the St. Mileal salient.  It all added up, and they had to start somewhere.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: froger on March 14, 2010, 03:28:04 AM
so far the lop sided furball thing that takes place close to one field or the other is getting old quick.
  i do not have a solution for that but if the fight is a five min ride and i get there and get ganged or maneuver a bit to fast in a shallow dive and rip the plane apart or simply just collide, does not seem that this will remain fun at all.
  agents idea of a flag capture or something along those lines would be nice but at it's current state, i will be done with it soon.
at this point it is still novel and kinda fun to try not to lose your bird to a collision or blown motor or just plain air frame damage but that cant stay fun for very long.

almost wish we would have looked to korea instead of a second euro front for some new fun.

that is all

froger <----waits to be flamed  :neener:  
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: BaldEagl on March 14, 2010, 03:42:44 AM
First, Toad never told you to go to the WWII arenas. He simply told you that everything you are asking for, you already have.....in the WWII arenas.

Second, exactly how do you expect to accomplish any of the objectives listed in this thread? Ground fire was lethal to WWI planes and it's thought that a soldier on the ground killed the Red Baron. Balloons/Zeppelins had lots of wires around them and were defended with AAA and it was nearly suicidal to attack them.

Other than recon flights planes in WWI didn't have any strategic offensive value. In light of that, what you are asking for is kinda silly.

Toad comes off as one who's not willing to share his sandbox.  He wishes to absolutely exclude those players who don't fly fighters from having anything to do with the WWI arenas even if they don't interfere in the least with the game he likes to play.  I believe this to be a very selfish and elitist attitude.

Who really cares exactly what roles various equipment payed in WWI.  This is a game.  Inclusion of WWI bombers and GV's would only add something to it and allow those "other kids" to play in the sandbox too.  I laid out a very easy to implement way to make that happen without affecting the current WWI arena play at all and, in fact, to your point, the fighters would have little to no strategic offensive value to the GV/bomber aspect.

Don't get me wrong.  I'm not a toolshedder and really like the way the arena is now but I'm also not selfish enough to exclude a large portion of the player base so, in response to the argument happening in this thread I tried to come up with an idea that might be palitable to all.  But no, even that wasn't sufficient.  It had to be Toad's way or no way.  He clearly seems like a child who doesn't like to share.  There's just no other way to view it.

The argument that it will devolve into the MA's has no merit if it was HT's clear intention to avoid that.  If that's not HT's intention then any other suggestion is just that and it will become another MA no matter who says what.  

The argument that Toad will be "stuck" with a WWI furball lake is also pointless.  What the WWI arena is now is three furball lakes with trees instead of a lake.  I'm sure HT or any map developer could replace furball lake with terrain and trees.  And BTW most of my time playing just before WWI has been at furball lake.  I like the short flight to the action and the challenge of staying alive although I'm not very successful at it and that's why I also like WWI so far but again, I'm willing to share.

I'll quit posting in this thread now.  It's pointless to attempt to enlighten totally closed minded people.

Off to WWI to fly through some cherry powerups, whatever the h*ll they are (again, I think only a child would know).

And finally, I have nothing against Toad.  At least he's passionate about what he likes.  I'm just telling it like I see it.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Bronk on March 14, 2010, 07:07:59 AM
Why some want is this so called objectives.  They  can hover 1k or so over and pick off the unsuspecting. Cant forget getting those who go afk on climb out to said objective. Those are the bestest right sax?
If you implement these so called objectives with no effect on others game play. People will start whining for some effect other than name in lights and rank points. It is inevitable. Look what the biggest complaints about MA game play. 3 hordes safety dancing around the map.

Hell I'm waiting for the whine about dot dar in wwI. Cuz we all know there was no dar in wwI right?
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: IronDog on March 14, 2010, 07:54:25 AM
My dad said the war was a lot of slow moving events.A tool shedder game isn't going to work .This is about furballs,and big ones at that.
ID
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: hitech on March 14, 2010, 09:29:55 AM
I  am with and against Toad at the same time.
BaldEag wrote.

Quote
inclusion of WWI bombers and GV's would only add something to it and allow those "other kids" to play in the sandbox too.

This is a very false statement. What it changes is the reason and how people play in the arena. Right now the reason people play is very simple, to dogfight and get kills. Adding bombers and and gv's would change most of the fight to be win for your country. Or are bombers and GV's good dog fighters in the arena?

While the arena may change slightly, they will not change into an all around war similar to the wwii arenas.

Examples of possible changes of the top of my head to illustrate changes that promote dog fighting. Vs changes that promote the need to not fight to accomplish your task. (such as bombing)

The country who gets xxx number of kills first, gets a benefit such as all enemy's die instantly, and the counts start again.

Along with this, may go forced side balancing.

Again these are just thoughts and not plans.

I.E. A game centered around Dog Fighting.

But the point is we already have a war win arena, no need for another, especially when the tools for that ware really do not fit the bill.

HiTech


Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Shifty on March 14, 2010, 09:39:30 AM
There it is. Gentlemen drop your purses.  :D
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: The Fugitive on March 14, 2010, 09:47:45 AM
I agree with Toad. I too have seem the add-ons slowly destroy the "fighting" aspect of the game. While I prefer flying WWII planes, it was a nice change after getting frustrated by the hordes of HOers in WWII to switch over and have a blast fighting in WWI. I'm glad HTC plans to keep them pretty much the same way they are.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Elfie on March 14, 2010, 09:57:30 AM
Quote
Toad comes off as one who's not willing to share his sandbox.  He wishes to absolutely exclude those players who don't fly fighters from having anything to do with the WWI arenas even if they don't interfere in the least with the game he likes to play.  I believe this to be a very selfish and elitist attitude.

For years the toolshedders have told the furballers, "If you want to furball you have the DA". The toolshedders have tried to relegate us to one small portion of one arena. All Toad wants is an arena where we can go furball. I can't say that I blame him and in fact I understand exactly where he is coming from.

In the WWI arenas you don't have Mustangs, Spitfires and LaCheesies sitting up at 10k+ just waiting to pick people off once they get engaged. Those same people run at the slightest hint of danger. The WWI arenas are all about the fight and that's why some of us play.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Elfie on March 14, 2010, 09:58:43 AM
Quote
A game centered around Dog Fighting.

But the point is we already have a war win arena, no need for another, especially when the tools for that ware really do not fit the bill.

Me wubs joo!!     :D
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Saxman on March 14, 2010, 10:23:40 AM
I  am with and against Toad at the same time.
BaldEag wrote.

This is a very false statement. What it changes is the reason and how people play in the arena. Right now the reason people play is very simple, to dogfight and get kills. Adding bombers and and gv's would change most of the fight to be win for your country. Or are bombers and GV's good dog fighters in the arena?

While the arena may change slightly, they will not change into an all around war similar to the wwii arenas.

Examples of possible changes of the top of my head to illustrate changes that promote dog fighting. Vs changes that promote the need to not fight to accomplish your task. (such as bombing)

The country who gets xxx number of kills first, gets a benefit such as all enemy's die instantly, and the counts start again.

Along with this, may go forced side balancing.

Again these are just thoughts and not plans.

I.E. A game centered around Dog Fighting.

But the point is we already have a war win arena, no need for another, especially when the tools for that ware really do not fit the bill.

HiTech




That's why I'd suggested balloon busting over No Man's Land. It was part of the historical origin of fighters to begin with, would generate dogfights as one side tried to defend them and the other side tried to attack them, and doesn't require the use of bombing strategic targets.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: sluggish on March 14, 2010, 10:33:32 AM
That's why I'd suggested balloon busting over No Man's Land. It was part of the historical origin of fighters to begin with, would generate dogfights as one side tried to defend them and the other side tried to attack them, and doesn't require the use of bombing strategic targets.

Banana and cherry power-ups is a gamey way to get your foot in the door for the gamey strat that you seem to long for.  But whatever...  There's four WW1 arenas.  Take one and do what ever you want with it.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: BaldEagl on March 14, 2010, 10:34:35 AM
Me wubs joo!!     :D

 :uhoh  Wewe did you wub him?   :uhoh
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: bj229r on March 14, 2010, 10:37:53 AM
I wanna be able to jump out of my flaming plane and hit the ground like a sack of wet mice
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Saxman on March 14, 2010, 10:52:14 AM
Banana and cherry power-ups is a gamey way to get your foot in the door for the gamey strat that you seem to long for.  But whatever...  There's four WW1 arenas.  Take one and do what ever you want with it.

Sorry, but strategic warfare is NOT gamey. It's using the aircraft for the purpose they were designed for, in a manner in which everyone has the opportunity both to participate in or defend against. That includes knocking down hangars, btw. I never understood what was so hard about upping from a base further back if the hangars go down at the one you're defending, or having a CAP over the field to stop the bombers in the first place.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: bj229r on March 14, 2010, 11:06:04 AM
Did airpower REALLY ever play a strategic role in WW1? It just started out as a way of shooting down arty spotters
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Saxman on March 14, 2010, 11:30:02 AM
Did airpower REALLY ever play a strategic role in WW1? It just started out as a way of shooting down arty spotters

Which is basically what my suggestion was. Observation balloons as targets. It could even be done without forcing an arena reset and kicking everyone out.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: bj229r on March 14, 2010, 11:32:21 AM
Well...weaving in and out of the cables while the 87 tards ignoring all else to gang you could be fun
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Toad on March 14, 2010, 11:32:45 AM

I.E. A game centered around Dog Fighting.

But the point is we already have a war win arena, no need for another, especially when the tools for that ware really do not fit the bill.

HiTech

God bless you HT.  I sorta figured you had the situation well in hand.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: sluggish on March 14, 2010, 11:33:00 AM
Sorry, but strategic warfare is NOT gamey. It's using the aircraft for the purpose they were designed for, in a manner in which everyone has the opportunity both to participate in or defend against. That includes knocking down hangars, btw. I never understood what was so hard about upping from a base further back if the hangars go down at the one you're defending, or having a CAP over the field to stop the bombers in the first place.

Not everyone has hours and days to get involved in a giant war win scenario.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: 68ZooM on March 14, 2010, 11:36:54 AM
so its just going to be WW1 DA basically, throw in the cherry pickin hordes, i can hardly wait for that. SO  no use in discussing this any farther we have our answer WW1 Fighter only arena.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: bj229r on March 14, 2010, 11:42:14 AM
As opposed to the noe-building-battling-base-taking whordes....
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Tarstar on March 14, 2010, 11:45:06 AM
That's why I'd suggested balloon busting over No Man's Land. It was part of the historical origin of fighters to begin with, would generate dogfights as one side tried to defend them and the other side tried to attack them, and doesn't require the use of bombing strategic targets.

And taking out balloons could limit map icons for the NME in that area or something like that.. Gives each side something to defend and a reason to defend it while still promoting dog fighting..
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: 68ZooM on March 14, 2010, 11:46:57 AM
BJ did you even read some of the posts at all, no one wanted rotating maps, no war winning, nothing like the MA setups, but do you think theres not going to be hordes in here? the MA crowd don't check there mentalities at the door they bring them in .
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Toad on March 14, 2010, 11:50:12 AM
For years the toolshedders have told the furballers, "If you want to furball you have the DA". The toolshedders have tried to relegate us to one small portion of one arena.

Exactly. If we don't want to play their game, we should go to a small corner of the DA, with no varied terrain features, with only 3 bases. The canyons, hills, trees, buildings, mountains and room to spread out amongst, say 6 bases like in WW1, those are not for us. After all, THEIR game is the only one that matters.

As I said and as the war-winnahs have shown in this thread, they are the most intolerant group in the game.

First we just want barrage balloons to generate dogfights. Because it's SO hard to find a fight in there now.

Of course, people will defend the balloon because they have absolutely no effect on the arena...oh, wait...we'll have to change that. We need to somehow make balloons important so that people will defend them instead of just going out and finding a fight somewhere. That way other players can hover a few thousand feet above the balloons and have an advantage when the other players come to the strategically important balloons.

Because, you know, announcing on common channel that you're going out into no man's land at 5k looking for some 1 v 1 just isn't working right now, is it?  :D

Now, I think I'll move along, since HT clearly has the situation well in hand.

I doubt the whines will stop though. Poor HT.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: bj229r on March 14, 2010, 11:51:23 AM
BJ did you even read some of the posts at all, no one wanted rotating maps, no war winning, nothing like the MA setups, but do you think theres not going to be hordes in here? the MA crowd don't check there mentalities at the door they bring them in .
They're certainly here (WW1) just a different sort...variety is the spice of life
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: LesterBoffo on March 14, 2010, 11:54:14 AM
I wanna be able to jump out of my flaming plane and hit the ground like a sack of wet mice

 Well I'd just like the chance to fly online for once.  But it would be fun to show some overconfident fighter jock that a slow old arty spotter can shoot back.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Bronk on March 14, 2010, 11:54:59 AM
Which is basically what my suggestion was. Observation balloons as targets. It could even be done without forcing an arena reset and kicking everyone out.
Yea it gives you something to hover 5k above and pick... fantastic.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: SIK1 on March 14, 2010, 11:58:45 AM
I  am with and against Toad at the same time.
BaldEag wrote.

This is a very false statement. What it changes is the reason and how people play in the arena. Right now the reason people play is very simple, to dogfight and get kills. Adding bombers and and gv's would change most of the fight to be win for your country. Or are bombers and GV's good dog fighters in the arena?

While the arena may change slightly, they will not change into an all around war similar to the wwii arenas.

Examples of possible changes of the top of my head to illustrate changes that promote dog fighting. Vs changes that promote the need to not fight to accomplish your task. (such as bombing)



The country who gets xxx number of kills first, gets a benefit such as all enemy's die instantly, and the counts start again.

Along with this, may go forced side balancing.

Again these are just thoughts and not plans.

I.E. A game centered around Dog Fighting.

But the point is we already have a war win arena, no need for another, especially when the tools for that ware really do not fit the bill.

HiTech




That's the way uh huh uh huh I like it........ :banana:  :cheers:  :aok
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: 68ZooM on March 14, 2010, 12:04:59 PM
Its good its going to be a figter only i guess, but now its going to be up to the fighterjocks to keep it from turning in the DA, your going to have to come up with some kind of policing.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Bronk on March 14, 2010, 12:09:02 PM
Its good its going to be a figter only i guess, but now its going to be up to the fighterjocks to keep it from turning in the DA, your going to have to come up with some kind of policing.

WWI can never get like the DA. None of the AC are capable of BnZ like WWII AC, so no warp speed pickin. No quad cannon so much less ping poof face shots. 
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: sluggish on March 14, 2010, 12:10:42 PM
What, precisely, is wrong with the DA?
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: bj229r on March 14, 2010, 12:16:36 PM
I think, at the moment, I think it's exACTLY like the DA (as personified by The Rowdy Ones)--main thing for me is too many folks are happy to be the 7th con chasing after 1 guy, totally ignoring nearby worthy targets which aren't otherwise occupied. It comes back to the old thing...lots of folks are more after the end product--kills-- rather than enjoying the fight which led up to them

<the DA, meaning furball lake, btw)
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: sluggish on March 14, 2010, 12:28:38 PM
Why is it that every time I think of a toolshedder saying the phrase "dueling arena" I picture them saying it with a sardonic tone with an expression on their face that they just tasted something bitter?
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: 68ZooM on March 14, 2010, 12:40:00 PM
I think, at the moment, I think it's exACTLY like the DA (as personified by The Rowdy Ones)--main thing for me is too many folks are happy to be the 7th con chasing after 1 guy, totally ignoring nearby worthy targets which aren't otherwise occupied. It comes back to the old thing...lots of folks are more after the end product--kills-- rather than enjoying the fight which led up to them

<the DA, meaning furball lake, btw)

i agree totally, furball lake in the DA is a place i never go, dueling on the outside map in the DA is great, just what its intended for i love the WW1 arena the fighting is intense, 1 on 1's up to 3 on 3's, i consider that great fighting and a level playing field for all combatants, its the certain mentality of just throw lead out there, or they see 1 lone plane all 5 jump in, instead of simply talking to themselves over vox and one plane peels off for engagement, not a conga line like you always see, or the groups that see a 1 v 1 or 2 v 2 and all 5 jump in, does anyone see what i mean ? how can we as a community try to make the WW1 arena not resemble the MA's or DA furball lake?

Personally i want to see this arena go somewhere, its thrilling.  :aok
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: SIK1 on March 14, 2010, 12:50:30 PM
If HTC does do something like forced side balancing then that will help to eliminate, or at least minimize the DA horde mentality. The whines associated with something like that will be priceless as well.

Zoom one way is to call them out on it. If the whole community lets it be known that type of behavior is unacceptable. Then maybe they'll get the hint and learn how to fight, or at the very least go back to the DA.

For the most part WW1 has been a breath of fresh air for me. I have been able to have many fun fights, both 1v1's and furballs. Yes, there have been a few instances where the  l337 horde types have ganged me, and a time or two where I came out on top  :D. not because I'm all that good but for the most they are that bad.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: The Fugitive on March 14, 2010, 12:59:42 PM
Why is it that every time I think of a toolshedder saying the phrase "dueling arena" I picture them saying it with a sardonic tone with an expression on their face that they just tasted something bitter?

Thats because when most people say "the DA" they mean furball lake which is nothing but a cesspool. From what I've seen in there 80-90% are skilless pickers who couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag.

I think if the community works at keeping a handle on the crap in WWI it won't turn into the "DA" we all love to hate. Like mentioned there is nothing that people can use to have a clear advantage over anyone else except skill. No cannons, no high speed BnZ (thou I think the governer should be off for all planes. It would be great seeing the fireballs diving into furballs  :devil ) and most of the people that are going to stick around the WWI arenas are those that look for "fights" not just kills.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: sluggish on March 14, 2010, 01:04:24 PM
Thats because when most people say "the DA" they mean furball lake which is nothing but a cesspool. From what I've seen in there 80-90% are skilless pickers who couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag.

I think if the community works at keeping a handle on the crap in WWI it won't turn into the "DA" we all love to hate. Like mentioned there is nothing that people can use to have a clear advantage over anyone else except skill. No cannons, no high speed BnZ (thou I think the governer should be off for all planes. It would be great seeing the fireballs diving into furballs  :devil ) and most of the people that are going to stick around the WWI arenas are those that look for "fights" not just kills.

You did it right there!
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: The Fugitive on March 14, 2010, 01:07:27 PM
You did it right there!

And I intended to! It is a cesspool. waaayyyy to much dweebery going on there.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: bj229r on March 14, 2010, 01:09:33 PM
I'm trying to think of something HT could do to eliminate/diminish chess-piece loyalty in WW1 without being too draconian about it...then you won't see scenarios where 1 country has more folks than the other 2 combined. (As was earlier stated, things have a way of adjusting somewhat to compensate for that, but IMO, would be better not to get there in the first place)
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Megalodon on March 14, 2010, 01:12:47 PM
I  am with and against Toad at the same time.
BaldEag wrote.

This is a very false statement. What it changes is the reason and how people play in the arena. Right now the reason people play is very simple, to dogfight and get kills. Adding bombers and and gv's would change most of the fight to be win for your country. Or are bombers and GV's good dog fighters in the arena?

While the arena may change slightly, they will not change into an all around war similar to the wwii arenas.

Examples of possible changes of the top of my head to illustrate changes that promote dog fighting. Vs changes that promote the need to not fight to accomplish your task. (such as bombing)

The country who gets xxx number of kills first, gets a benefit such as all enemy's die instantly, and the counts start again.

Along with this, may go forced side balancing.

Again these are just thoughts and not plans.

I.E. A game centered around Dog Fighting.

But the point is we already have a war win arena, no need for another, especially when the tools for that ware really do not fit the bill.

HiTech




Why not have 2 arenas 1 DogFight arena and 1 WW1 arena? What would be wrong with that? If you don't get some kind of strategy or make a game for this arena, in about 2-3 months you will have done all this work for about 20-40 folks. <sigh>
I spent about 3-4 hours in there and well... I just cant wait for the sidebalancing to begin  :rolleyes:

I'm in the strat boat. Full service arena!

Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: jolly22 on March 14, 2010, 01:13:03 PM
OK OK OK, you all got your WW1 arena, Now lets go back to WW2 :D
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: sluggish on March 14, 2010, 01:22:47 PM
And I intended to! It is a cesspool. waaayyyy to much dweebery going on there.

I fly there regularly.  The bnz dweebs are just part of the scenery.  I fly low and love to watch them compress and auger.  Your disdain for the way others play the game belies your penchant to tell others what to do.  As in..  

"I DON'T LIKE TELLING PEOPLE WHAT TO DO BUT, WE'VE GOT TO FIGURE OUT A WAY TO KEEP THE BNZ GUYS FROM PLAYING THE GAME THE WAY THEY WANT!!"

See?
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: crazierthanu on March 14, 2010, 01:34:04 PM
I fly there regularly.  The bnz dweebs are just part of the scenery.  I fly low and love to watch them compress and auger.  Your disdain for the way others play the game belies your penchant to tell others what to do.  As in..  

"I DON'T LIKE TELLING PEOPLE WHAT TO DO BUT, WE'VE GOT TO FIGURE OUT A WAY TO KEEP THE BNZ GUYS FROM PLAYING THE GAME THE WAY THEY WANT!!"

See?
Doesn't matter if there playing the game the way they want. Their still terrible pilots.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: The Fugitive on March 14, 2010, 01:37:33 PM
I fly there regularly.  The bnz dweebs are just part of the scenery.  I fly low and love to watch them compress and auger.  Your disdain for the way others play the game belies your penchant to tell others what to do.  As in..  

"I DON'T LIKE TELLING PEOPLE WHAT TO DO BUT, WE'VE GOT TO FIGURE OUT A WAY TO KEEP THE BNZ GUYS FROM PLAYING THE GAME THE WAY THEY WANT!!"

See?

It's not only "my disdain", it's generally accepted that the furball lake area of the DA is just that, a cesspool. Now that it has been "labeled" as such you will find most people will avoid it much as they avoid the AvA arena due to the stuff that "use to" happen in there.

I'm not telling anyone what to do or not to do. I voice my opinion here much like many others. I post what "I think", not what YOU should think. I post what I've seen and what I've read. Once someone, or something gets a reputation it is very hard to change that persona. The DA IS a cesspool. Again that is my opinion. I go in there every now and then hoping to find some of these "quick fights" people say they have in there. EVERY time I spend more time ducking "pickers" than fighting fighters.

Again, I'm not telling anyone what to do, nor am I singling you out as a "dweeb" because you fly there. If you enjoy getting picked and being cannon fodder, enjoy yourself. I prefer to have more fight than dodging.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: sluggish on March 14, 2010, 01:39:50 PM
Doesn't matter if there playing the game the way they want. Their still terrible pilots.

"There" is a place and "their" shows possession.  The one you're looking for is "they're."  What does them being good or bad cartoon airplane pilots have to do with their right to play as they see fit?
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Urchin on March 14, 2010, 01:48:03 PM
Why not have 2 arenas 1 DogFight arena and 1 WW1 arena? What would be wrong with that? If you don't get some kind of strategy or make a game for this arena, in about 2-3 months you will have done all this work for about 20-40 folks. <sigh>
I spent about 3-4 hours in there and well... I just cant wait for the sidebalancing to begin  :rolleyes:

I'm in the strat boat. Full service arena!



I guess you skipped to the end?  You HAVE a "full-service" arena.  Personally, I think the MA will eventually get to the point where it is more like "war" and less like a game - if HT ever introduces GVs that are more effective at blowing up buildings than airplanes are, I think we will see planes relegated to support status by the population. 

I have to admit I was leery about the WW1 arena because I thought it would take focus off of the WW2 planeset - but I think I am a convert now.. the WW1 arena is where I am staying.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: sluggish on March 14, 2010, 01:50:21 PM
It's not only "my disdain", it's generally accepted that the furball lake area of the DA is just that, a cesspool. Now that it has been "labeled" as such you will find most people will avoid it much as they avoid the AvA arena due to the stuff that "use to" happen in there.


Since you have what you feel is a majority in this opinion you feel that you can use a mob mentality to decide how new arenas will be implemented...
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Slamfire on March 14, 2010, 02:08:37 PM
Dear HTC:

Way back around 1992, when Christ was a humble Mess Cook and all that, I got into this wonderful game that we all know called Air Warrior for DOS.

This was back in the day when you'd dial into BBS'es and spoke to the world via usenet.  Anyways, I met some local sim enthusiasts, and they told me of the holy grail of flight sims: SVGA Air Warrior.  Intrigued, I decided to try the free play, being as the rate was well over $2 an hour back then... damn maybe even as much as $6... can't even remember, but my introduction to the game was the old Internet Head To Head Daemon (IHHD) Air Warrior Ladder Matches which was dominated by the old 666th-etal squadron - the legendary Red Beard and all his top notch group of people.  Anyways, they were my trial by fire introduction to online dogfighting.

Anyways, my point: what hooked me was the amazing, pure, stick and rudder thrill of 1 on 1 dogfights.  It wasn't as much as the planes, as it was pure stick and rudder skills.  IMHO, nothing has surpassed the pure fun and excitement of those old ladder matches... UNTIL this new WWI Arena.

THANK YOU - it's the most fun I've had with the genre in many years - an absolute throwback the best days the genre has ever seen IMHO.

Please continue development keeping the above in mind - we don't need any pacman strawberry powerups to spoil what I consider to be pure fun and excitement distilled into it's most basic form.   

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: crazierthanu on March 14, 2010, 02:27:32 PM
"There" is a place and "their" shows possession.  The one you're looking for is "they're."  What does them being good or bad cartoon airplane pilots have to do with their right to play as they see fit?
Correct me on spelling? On an online bulletin board?  :lol
I don't care if they play the way they play, I was stating that they have little skill. Most people will agree with me when I say sitting in a tempest at 20k picking engaged cons is a great way to get better.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: sluggish on March 14, 2010, 02:32:36 PM
Correct me on spelling? On an online bulletin board?  :lol
I don't care if they play the way they play, I was stating that they have little skill. Most people will agree with me when I say sitting in a tempest at 20k picking engaged cons is a great way to get better.  :rolleyes:

Why are you so concerned that you wish to stop them or make sure they can't do it in the new arenas?  Does a person's skill level give them less of a say in game-play?  And why do you feel that your perceived majority gives you the right to stop or curtail game-play that you find offensive?
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: SIK1 on March 14, 2010, 02:35:14 PM
Why are you so concerned that you wish to stop them or make sure they can't do it in the new arenas?  Does a person's skill level give them less of a say in game-play?  And why do you feel that your perceived majority gives you the right to stop or curtail game-play that you find offensive?

Why do you think that the game should change the way you want. You already have your win the war arenas, and your horde tard cesspool go there and leave WW1 alone.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: crazierthanu on March 14, 2010, 02:39:18 PM
Why are you so concerned that you wish to stop them or make sure they can't do it in the new arenas?  Does a person's skill level give them less of a say in game-play?  And why do you feel that your perceived majority gives you the right to stop or curtail game-play that you find offensive?
When did I say I was concerned about the way people fly in the new arenas? I was backing up fugitive when he said the DA was a "cesspool", where he is correct. When did I say it gives someone a less of a say when voicing their opinion in new content?
Stop asking irrelevant questions, all I did was agree with fugitive when he said people who regularly fly in the DA were probably not as skilled as the MA variety.  
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Elfie on March 14, 2010, 02:46:29 PM
:uhoh  Wewe did you wub him?   :uhoh

Ok....I'm just gonna ignore this one.......sicko!!





 :D
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Elfie on March 14, 2010, 02:47:08 PM
That's why I'd suggested balloon busting over No Man's Land. It was part of the historical origin of fighters to begin with, would generate dogfights as one side tried to defend them and the other side tried to attack them, and doesn't require the use of bombing strategic targets.

Uh.....you don't really need anything to generate fights when there are only 6 bases on the maps......
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: sluggish on March 14, 2010, 02:50:33 PM
Why do you think that the game should change the way you want. You already have your win the war arenas, and your horde tard cesspool go there and leave WW1 alone.

I've seen the game change enough.  What are you talking about?  This whole thread is about people who can't leave well enough alone and can't wait for some sort of strat silliness to be implemented into the WW1 arenas.  All I ask is that one of the new arenas be left as is.  Why do toolshedders feel their game-play must be forced on everyone?
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: SIK1 on March 14, 2010, 03:12:27 PM
Hmm funny you're the one arguing with all the dogfighters about the way WW1 arenas are, or need to be.

Then you stoop to correcting another posters grammar. Me thinks that maybe you're one of the horde tardlets. If not good for you, but ask yourself do most of your kills come when eight or ten of your best buds are around you, do your fights involve only one or two red icons the other ten are green?

Just for your information I've seen a lot of changes here as well as in AW and they always take away from the pure dogfight. I'm not asking for any strat, or win the war silliness, but I also don't want to have to fight my way out of a 10v1 with you and nine of your best buds.

Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: sluggish on March 14, 2010, 03:13:45 PM
Hmm funny you're the one arguing with all the dogfighters about the way WW1 arenas are, or need to be.

Then you stoop to correcting another posters grammar. Me thinks that maybe you're one of the horde tardlets. If not good for you, but ask yourself do most of your kills come when eight or ten of your best buds are around you, do your fights involve only one or two red icons the other ten are green?

Just for your information I've seen a lot of changes here as well as in AW and they always take away from the pure dogfight. I'm not asking for any strat, or win the war silliness, but I also don't want to have to fight my way out of a 10v1 with you and nine of your best buds.



Dude.  Go back and re-read this thread.  I'll be waiting for your apology.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Toad on March 14, 2010, 03:17:04 PM
I'll chime in on the DA.

I think a person's actual experience in the DA tends to mirror that person's expectations of the DA.

I go there expecting to take an FM2 or a Brew off the cliff, down to the water and into the nearest group of red icons. That usually results in some good fights against like-minded people. Yes, there are still cherry pickers in Tempests, just like in the MA. But I kill some Tempests too and it really doesn't worry me.

There are small fights; I've had plenty of 1 v 1s at the Lake.

Mostly there is good action and that's the basic reason I play.

I have a huge amount of fun in there.

I would like to see them implement a WW2 furball arena just like the WW1 arena though. I'd like to see a bit more in the way of terrain and more space than Furball Lake provides. Some hills, canyons and such to add complexity to maneuvering. Just take a WW1 map with the bases and layout intact, add some variations in elevation, disable everything but the planes and let her rip.  

But I can live with Furball Lake too. It's good times for me.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: truss51 on March 14, 2010, 03:20:59 PM
WW1 who?
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: SIK1 on March 14, 2010, 04:21:14 PM
Dude.  Go back and re-read this thread.  I'll be waiting for your apology.

If you're not a horde tard, and just love the fight then I do apologise for that implication.

I've flown in the DA, I've had some good experiences in there, and I've had some really miserable ones as well. Here lately it's been way more of the latter. It's never fun to have ten guys swarm you just so one of them can get the kill in hopes that he can get two strung together. So that he can run home get his name in lights, and all the wtg's from his fellow horde tards.  I enjoy a good furball as much as I enjoy a good 1v1, or even fighting a 2/3v1 with me being the one. I don't like it when the borg shows up. Just an fyi ten on one is not a furball it's a gangbang. If that's your idea of fun then keep it in the DA.

I don't want to ad strat, or win the war to the WW1 arenas. Nor do I want them to devolve into the DA as it is today. For the most part I have been able to find what I'm looking for in the four WW1 arenas. When the tardlets show up in one I move to another.

When I first started AH you could go to the DA with someone be on the same country have some good fights without being bothered. Recently I've had 1v1's interrupted at bases away from the cesspool. HTC had to enable kill shooter because morons who don't know or care about the fight would ruin the fun for everyone else.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: sluggish on March 14, 2010, 04:27:11 PM


When I first started AH you could go to the DA with someone be on the same country have some good fights without being bothered. Recently I've had 1v1's interrupted at bases away from the cesspool. HTC had to enable kill shooter because morons who don't know or care about the fight would ruin the fun for everyone else.


I wouldn't hesitate to report someone who did that.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: bmwgs on March 14, 2010, 04:53:32 PM
WWI can never get like the DA. None of the AC are capable of BnZ like WWII AC, so no warp speed pickin. No quad cannon so much less ping poof face shots.  

hehe, I see you haven't flown the WW1 Arena yet.  It's nothing but a pick fest since day one.  You do occasionally get into a good one on one but you pretty much have to get them away from the horde of players flying in circles.  They may not be able to B&Z like they do in the MA, but it is clearly going on.  It is fun as he!! though.

Fred
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: The Fugitive on March 14, 2010, 04:59:46 PM
"There" is a place and "their" shows possession.  The one you're looking for is "they're."  What does them being good or bad cartoon airplane pilots have to do with their right to play as they see fit?

OK so you don't like the guys post so you pick on his grammar wow!, just wow! I think<--- again only my opinion you might want to look up how to have a discussion and stay on topic.

Since you have what you feel is a majority in this opinion you feel that you can use a mob mentality to decide how new arenas will be implemented...

I don't know where you get the idea I have any control over how the arenas will be implemented. I just stated how I would like to see how things go and HTC has posted that the WWI arenas will pretty much stay as they are, fighter orientated.
Why are you so concerned that you wish to stop them or make sure they can't do it in the new arenas?  Does a person's skill level give them less of a say in game-play?  And why do you feel that your perceived majority gives you the right to stop or curtail game-play that you find offensive?

I think <---opinion and maybe crazierthanu would agree that "if" equipment was added that allowed 20k BnZ passes that it would ruin what is starting to be a fun place to have some great fights.

I've seen the game change enough.  What are you talking about?  This whole thread is about people who can't leave well enough alone and can't wait for some sort of strat silliness to be implemented into the WW1 arenas.  All I ask is that one of the new arenas be left as is.  Why do toolshedders feel their game-play must be forced on everyone?

The OP "asked what "we" (like any of us really have any pull in directing which way HTC will move forward with WWI). You didn't post a response to that until recently. Your posts were directed at those of us who say "DA like we have a bad taste in our mouth". Your defense of the DA as you see it, is what you've been posting about. While you enjoy the DA, a lot of us do not and we have as much right to our opinions as you.

So back on topic.... It has been posted by Hitech that the WWI arena will stay pretty much the way they are with maybe a tweak here and there to push fighter to fight more for the kills. Seeing as you have posted you would like to see this as by your quote above "All I ask is that one of the new arenas be left as is" there really isn't anything more to say.  
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: crazierthanu on March 14, 2010, 05:26:54 PM

I don't know where you get the idea I have any control over how the arenas will be implemented. I just stated how I would like to see how things go and HTC has posted that the WWI arenas will pretty much stay as they are, fighter orientated.
I think <---opinion and maybe crazierthanu would agree that "if" equipment was added that allowed 20k BnZ passes that it would ruin what is starting to be a fun place to have some great fights.

Totally true. WW1 should stay a place where someone can come to have a good fight. Adding objectives would probably ruin it for people who actually want to "fight."

There's enough room in the LW for people who want to horde and land grab. Leave it out of WW1.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Miska on March 14, 2010, 05:36:05 PM

While the arena may change slightly, they will not change into an all around war similar to the wwii arenas.

HT,

I'd be grateful if you could explain your reasoning.  Here is mine:

There were three reasons to be in the Air in WWI

1) to observe the enemy
2) to prevent the enemy from observing you
3) to prevent the enemy from preventing you

That's how the airwar was originally generated, and all that dogfighting action emerged from those simple dynamics.  It seems to me that if you give each side a good reason to observe the enemy, you will get all the dogfighting anyone can handle and you'll have an environment that will attract people with an interest in a strong strat environment.  You'd have the furballers, and you'd be the only game in town when it comes to WWI strat.  I don't see a downside.
Vlas
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: sluggish on March 14, 2010, 05:51:52 PM
OK so you don't like the guys post so you pick on his grammar wow!, just wow! I think<--- again only my opinion you might want to look up how to have a discussion and stay on topic.

I don't know where you get the idea I have any control over how the arenas will be implemented. I just stated how I would like to see how things go and HTC has posted that the WWI arenas will pretty much stay as they are, fighter orientated.
I think <---opinion and maybe crazierthanu would agree that "if" equipment was added that allowed 20k BnZ passes that it would ruin what is starting to be a fun place to have some great fights.

The OP "asked what "we" (like any of us really have any pull in directing which way HTC will move forward with WWI). You didn't post a response to that until recently. Your posts were directed at those of us who say "DA like we have a bad taste in our mouth". Your defense of the DA as you see it, is what you've been posting about. While you enjoy the DA, a lot of us do not and we have as much right to our opinions as you.

So back on topic.... It has been posted by Hitech that the WWI arena will stay pretty much the way they are with maybe a tweak here and there to push fighter to fight more for the kills. Seeing as you have posted you would like to see this as by your quote above "All I ask is that one of the new arenas be left as is" there really isn't anything more to say.  

What are you going on about?  Do you post just to hear your fingers go clickity-clack on the keyboard?  My first post in this thread, which is on page one or two, was a comment on the strat geeks, toolshedders if you will, who refuse to leave well enough alone and insist on making everyone play their way.  Fun suckers was the term I used, I believe...

Do not post and expect to be taken seriously if you don't know or care to know the difference between there, their and they're.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: crazierthanu on March 14, 2010, 05:56:07 PM
What are you going on about?  Do you post just to hear your fingers go clickity-clack on the keyboard?  My first post in this thread, which is on page one or two, was a comment on the strat geeks, toolshedders if you will, who refuse to leave well enough alone and insist on making everyone play their way.  Fun suckers was the term I used, I believe...

Do not post and expect to be taken seriously if you don't know or care to know the difference between there, their and they're.
Did you have trouble understanding or comprehending my post? Didn't think so.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: newz on March 14, 2010, 06:09:26 PM
There were three reasons to be in the Air in WWI


There's only one reason to be in the WW1 arena and it's to engage in "pure unadulterated WW1 dogfighting".

Ever seen porkers in WW2 arena? They are not there to engage in A2A combat. I'm enjoying the WW1 arena
and would rather not it become filled with squads who's only goal is to strafe mg nests and blow up balloons
at all costs.
There seems to be more than a few of us who don't need any extra incentive to log in and enjoy an arena
"designed for pure unadulterated WW1 dogfighting".
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Elfie on March 14, 2010, 06:17:13 PM
HT,

I'd be grateful if you could explain your reasoning.  Here is mine:

There were three reasons to be in the Air in WWI

1) to observe the enemy
2) to prevent the enemy from observing you
3) to prevent the enemy from preventing you

That's how the airwar was originally generated, and all that dogfighting action emerged from those simple dynamics.  It seems to me that if you give each side a good reason to observe the enemy, you will get all the dogfighting anyone can handle and you'll have an environment that will attract people with an interest in a strong strat environment.  You'd have the furballers, and you'd be the only game in town when it comes to WWI strat.  I don't see a downside.
Vlas

We already have all the dogfighting anyone could handle in the WWI arenas.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Yeager on March 14, 2010, 06:17:55 PM
there is something top be said for keeping the WW1 experience purely air to air fighters....

I could easily live with that  :joystick:
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Bronk on March 14, 2010, 06:53:22 PM
hehe, I see you haven't flown the WW1 Arena yet.  It's nothing but a pick fest since day one.  You do occasionally get into a good one on one but you pretty much have to get them away from the horde of players flying in circles.  They may not be able to B&Z like they do in the MA, but it is clearly going on.  It is fun as he!! though.

Fred
Didn't say there was no pickin.  They just can't take warp speed passes in uber rides with relative impunity. It is in no way like the DA.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: The Fugitive on March 14, 2010, 07:01:30 PM
HT,

I'd be grateful if you could explain your reasoning.  Here is mine:

There were three reasons to be in the Air in WWI

1) to observe the enemy
2) to prevent the enemy from observing you
3) to prevent the enemy from preventing you

That's how the airwar was originally generated, and all that dogfighting action emerged from those simple dynamics.  It seems to me that if you give each side a good reason to observe the enemy, you will get all the dogfighting anyone can handle and you'll have an environment that will attract people with an interest in a strong strat environment.  You'd have the furballers, and you'd be the only game in town when it comes to WWI strat.  I don't see a downside.
Vlas


ahhhh your confusing war with a video game.

There doesn't need to be "incentives" to fight. If you have the will, there are plenty of targets.

edited for a big spelling error !
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: BaldEagl on March 14, 2010, 07:28:37 PM

ahhhh your confusing war with a video game.

There doesn't need to be "intensives" to fight. If you have the will, there are plenty of targets.

incentives?
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: The Fugitive on March 14, 2010, 07:36:53 PM
wow! a T doesn't look anything like a C thanks for catching that !
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: bmwgs on March 14, 2010, 08:36:46 PM
Didn't say there was no pickin.  They just can't take warp speed passes in uber rides with relative impunity. It is in no way like the DA.

I don't know.  Your right its not at warp speed, but everything in the WW1 Arena is slow, but at times I see no difference except for speed.

My Opinion

Fred
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Westy on March 15, 2010, 10:39:31 AM
 Hate his politics : ) but super kudos to Toad for doing a phenominal job at trying to
get the point across to those who *thought* they were listening but were assuredly
not.

All hail the Hitechster!  Your group has made something special once again with this
new WWI  arena.  <S>

Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Bronk on March 15, 2010, 03:57:08 PM
I don't know.  Your right its not at warp speed, but everything in the WW1 Arena is slow, but at times I see no difference except for speed.

My Opinion

Fred
Ohh I agree on pickin galore. However there is a HUGE diff between quad cannon birds swarmin vs. twin .303s birds swarmin.  Much less 1 shot kills.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: NoBaddy on March 16, 2010, 07:42:42 AM
If so, you understand these seemingly innocuous ideas will evolve into the morass that is the MA.


It was an Atoll map with three bases on an island in the middle. Each country had an uncapturable big island of their own. The GVs were ONLY in the middle. Bombers did have absolutely minimal effect on gameplay, although they were fun to fly because you could put so many live gunners in them.


Geez....kids......:-)

Mid 1990, "Iron Bottom Sound". Large lake in the middle, with 3 main air fields around the it. Behind each main field (way behind) was a city and 2 secondary fields (one facing each opposing country). There were NO capturable fields. Bombers were flown for score...period.

Things didn't really get out of hand until all the fields became capturable. Game play deteriorated steadily from that point.

Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Toad on March 16, 2010, 10:18:52 AM
OK, Oldtimer. You got me there.   :)

You made the most important point though. It's a truth that has continued from there to the present day.


Quote
Things didn't really get out of hand until all the fields became capturable. Game play deteriorated steadily from that point.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Yeager on March 16, 2010, 10:38:36 AM
do keep in mind when stating that "gameplay deteriorated steadily from that point" that the AH population has increased steadily from that point.  What can be stated fairly accurately I think is that a smaller population became somehwat disengaged as a larger population took over.  From HTCs viewpoint they are better off today than they were ten years ago.  Keep that in mind.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Toad on March 16, 2010, 10:56:31 AM
If there were three 10,000 player hordes avoiding each other as they rolled undefended bases in the MA, HTC would undoubtedly be better off financially.

It would be pretty hard to say that improved gameplay though. It would have to be viewed as deterioration.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Yeager on March 16, 2010, 11:08:30 AM
Im in agreement with you. 

However, I am aware that for many other players gameplay is simply not an issue.  Case in point: I will not play in LW because it is simply too crowded for my enjoyment.  Simply too much all around dweebiness.  Before the WW1 arenas came along I was exclusively a MW player.  Great crowds, not too many peeps to piss in my wheaties, and I loved the plane set.  But, each night there are 350-400 people split between the two LW arenas, so a LOT of people are having fun in an arena(s) that I do not enjoy playing in because "gameplay" sucks.  Just keeping it real.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Toad on March 16, 2010, 11:24:56 AM
Believe me, 30,000 people in the MA would not bother me at all.

I wouldn't be there but it wouldn't bother me.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Kirin on March 16, 2010, 11:58:40 AM
I love the new WW1 'pure dogfight' arena. It's fresh - it's a change. I also love the MA 'war' arena which comes a little closer to depict applied air-to-air tactcis as I understand them. I do not understand why a T&B pilot should be more skilled than a B&Z pilot - just to justify those two stereotypes here.

Leave WW1 as it is - maybe add a few 'fun targets' like zeps and ballons - but leave it for the stick & rudder types.

As for the ganging problem... for those who whine about being outnumbered or 'picked' in a fight - can you tell me why you fly a multiplayer combat sim with massive multiplayer arenas in the first place? Setup your duels at places and times where you like - but don't whine in a arena with 100+ people. SA is a skill too! So is tactical engagement and disengagement. Or maybe team tactics - wingmen - etc. ...
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Boxboy on March 16, 2010, 12:12:47 PM
LOL @Kirin get real bud this is an egomaniac game so screams of hording, picking, etc are sure to follow a shootdown :rofl I do it myself from time to time  :o
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: NoBaddy on March 16, 2010, 01:01:19 PM
OK, Oldtimer. You got me there.   :)

You made the most important point though. It's a truth that has continued from there to the present day.

Gee thanks....as if I don't feel old enough!  :old:

Unfortunately, the proponents of pure fight are the minority. HTC needs the majority to pay the bills. At the same time, I played WW1 in AW. It was, most often, a ghost town. This was because, in part, the "fight" has a limited appeal.

What I see as the optimal solution is some form of activity that will inspire attack and defense (without encouraging horde monkey gameplay). In the end, I find mindless furballing as inane as mindless toolshedding.

Okay, now I can drop a few hints about what I think might work... :devil

First, establish "battle lines" between the air fields. There would be ack like the field ack. The ack would provide "cover" for the observation balloons and prevent the current conga lines.

In addition, have a ground battle going on in the center of the map. Each side would also have an observation balloon there (but no ack). That would "funnel" the players into the center area and the Mother of All WW1 furballs.  :D

Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Toad on March 16, 2010, 01:30:13 PM
Right down the same old road.  It would never end; you know this from experience.

It would be like the begatting in the Bible.

"“Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren; / And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram; / And Aram begat Aminadab....."

Pretty soon, you'd begat the current MA.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: NoBaddy on March 16, 2010, 01:45:04 PM
Well Toad...

With out a bit of beggatting... no one would be here to play the game.  :devil

Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Toad on March 16, 2010, 01:51:15 PM
Considering the point it is at now, if only the MA had been begotten, I wouldn't be here now.   :D

As HT said, we already have a war-winnah arena; no need to begat another.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Pongo on March 16, 2010, 02:00:22 PM
Tune the icons.
Consider only two sides not three
Load balance to 10% or so.
Allow instant side switching(there is no strat to spy on)
Add a few clouds and put mildly leathal (Invisible)robot Mgs along both sides of no mans land. So at least there is some cover to dive for.

I am please with HTs response, to my mind, no proponent of putting strat in WW1 ever came close to describing what that strat would be like.
IMHO if every aircraft, vehicle and ship in WW1 was modeled, you could still not make the base capture game out of them.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: hitech on March 16, 2010, 03:42:30 PM
Would anyone one be against shooting a heard of sheep to win?

HiTech
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: SIK1 on March 16, 2010, 03:48:07 PM
I believe that S.A.P.P. would be. They are working on a plan to save all sheep. :devil
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: R 105 on March 16, 2010, 03:48:52 PM
Shoot sheep, why not.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: CptTrips on March 16, 2010, 03:58:12 PM
Shoot sheep, why not.

Some here'bouts have done worse.

:noid,
Wab
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: NoBaddy on March 16, 2010, 04:07:58 PM
Some here'bouts have done worse.

:noid,
Wab

...or better.... :devil :angel:

Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Toad on March 16, 2010, 04:08:14 PM
Go ahead and add parachutes. Let us shoot chutes.

The best/most chute-shootin' shooters win the war. Reset/Rinse/Repeat.

I think that would instill the proper sense of "honor" in the game.  :devil
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Ghosth on March 16, 2010, 04:08:24 PM
Takes a bit of "begatting" in order to keep the place populated. Logging in early morning its already down to 12 - 20. That is "just" barely enough to have a fun "Dawn Patrol".

I think the key is to draw the line at where it "effects" the arena. Especially if it effects it for more than 15 min.
You can have things to do that can impact the arena for a short time without totally losing the furballers.
Barrage balloons, convoys, trench strafing, sheep shooting, whatever. (don't know what we'll do with all the dead sheep, but whatever. :) )

Unless your going to go with a simple first guy to kill 10 sheep wins the war, you see confetti, get your name in "lights" and everything else remains unchanged.

What I do know is that HT has his thumb "Firmly" on our pulse, and he's had a lot of time spent doing trial and error. Whatever he comes up with should be interesting.  :)


Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: CptTrips on March 16, 2010, 04:37:32 PM
Takes a bit of "begatting" in order to keep the place populated. Logging in early morning its already down to 12 - 20. That is "just" barely enough to have a fun "Dawn Patrol".

I think the key is to draw the line at where it "effects" the arena. Especially if it effects it for more than 15 min.
You can have things to do that can impact the arena for a short time without totally losing the furballers.
Barrage balloons, convoys, trench strafing, sheep shooting, whatever. (don't know what we'll do with all the dead sheep, but whatever. :) )

Unless your going to go with a simple first guy to kill 10 sheep wins the war, you see confetti, get your name in "lights" and everything else remains unchanged.

What I do know is that HT has his thumb "Firmly" on our pulse, and he's had a lot of time spent doing trial and error. Whatever he comes up with should be interesting.  :)






I'm sure I'm not being pure enough for the furball Taliban, but I do think to keep the arena healthy, SOMETHING more has to be added than 2 straight-line conveyor belts feeding into a meat-grinder.
Even the action in the DA has more interesting dynamics than that because you at least have all 3 sides mixing in the same fight.  It’s interesting to just watch the map at the furball lake in the DA and watch how the center-of-gravity shifts around and presents different configurations.  If one side pushed too far toward one enemy, they naturally expose their flanks to the third team.  If they try and attack both sides simultaneously, they must divide their force and are weak. 
I’m sure HT will think of something. ;)

Regards,
Wab
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Sunka on March 16, 2010, 04:50:55 PM
I would like to say i have been having nothing but fun,i have been meeting with some real nice guys that want to have fun fights with one on ones in no mans land during the night,most seem to respect the one on one thing in the middle,and by far I'm having the best most fun fights there.WWI no manes land seems fine for me and has been all i was hoping for.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Ack-Ack on March 16, 2010, 06:23:00 PM
Would anyone one be against shooting a heard of sheep to win?

HiTech

S.A.P.P would strongly protest if the indiscriminate murder of sheep was made a criteria for winning the map.  We will not sit idly by if HiTech Creations would endorse such barbaric behavior.

ack-ack
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: uptown on March 16, 2010, 06:31:25 PM
Would anyone one be against shooting a heard of sheep to win?

HiTech
:huh  :headscratch: :uhoh :aok
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: E25280 on March 16, 2010, 06:31:54 PM
S.A.P.P would strongly protest if the indiscriminate murder of sheep was made a criteria for winning the map.  We will not sit idly by if HiTech Creations would endorse such barbaric behavior.

ack-ack
If they are the enemy's sheep, the murdering would not be indiscriminate, now, would it?  

+1 to sheep slaughter FTW!!
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: caldera on March 16, 2010, 06:39:10 PM
Would anyone one be against shooting a heard of sheep to win?

HiTech


Save Our Sheep   ;)
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Ack-Ack on March 16, 2010, 06:39:48 PM
If they are the enemy's sheep, the murdering would not be indiscriminate, now, would it?  

+1 to sheep slaughter FTW!!

S.A.P.P. doesn't recognize that sheep of any side are the enemy of mankind but rather all ovines are friends to humans.  It is to that point that S.A.P.P has temporarily set aside its plans for world domination and the elimination of squadrons in Aces High to devote ourselves to saving our four legged, wool covered brethren.  For too long the sheep have been victims of our arrogant violence but NO MORE!

We are saddened and a little disgusted that HiTech would even consider the slaugher of the poor defenseless sheep as the main criteria to win the war.  The Grand Exhalted Leader is not very amused either.


ack-ack
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: SIK1 on March 16, 2010, 07:04:53 PM
I don't know if he makes them splatter like in Quake it might take that element's attention away from barging in on real fights.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Flayed on March 16, 2010, 07:42:24 PM
  HEh now that things are settling down in WW1 why do I have this picture of HiTech looking like the genie on Aladin when he was first turning him into a prince and turned the monkey into different animals for Aladin to ride. Each time saying "Hmmm not enough...  Hmm Still not enough..."  :)

  I can go along with keeping a majority of the strat play in the WW2 arenas but WW1 feels like it's just missing something but I can't put my finger on exactly what it needs.


 Hmm maybe a Zeppelin hanging out at some point say 5K or so high for each country.   Maybe hanging out close to it's countries base (could be placed differently depending on how maps are made).  This Zeppelin would be able to sustain a good amount of damage before going down.   It would act as a goal and with no ord and all planes having similar speed would cause each team to have to fight through the other teams forces to get a shot at it.

  I'm unsure on exactly what the winning side would get out of striking the final blow and sending the Zeppelin down as a flaming hulk onto the enemy base.  Ohh I like that.  Just watching a flaming zeppelin crash onto the base and being able to say "In your face you dirty (insert country)!" Might be fun enough lol.   

  Having it at some form of alt might help spread the fight out a bit so not everything is a spin in circles in the dirt fight.

  Oh well just an idea. :)
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Miska on March 16, 2010, 08:34:32 PM
Would anyone one be against shooting a heard of sheep to win?

HiTech

Of course this is your sandbox and you can do with it what you will, but I don't quite understand why you would exclude a group of players when you don't have to.  A very few, very simple measures that don't get in the way of furballing could attract a whole crowd of strat oriented players who have nowhere to go for WWI.  There doesn't even have to be a "victory" involved.  Players could have observer ranking, for example, for completing recon missions.  They could have a scout ranking for shooting down aircraft with an observer on board.  A very simple dynamic in which there is a reason to fly recon and a reason to oppose it would create a very interesting environment far above the furball, and would have zero impact on it.

Vlas
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Toad on March 16, 2010, 09:00:20 PM
Of course, none of the things mentioned would ever be enough.

As soon as they were a week old there would be cries for "improvements" to the recently implemented item. A week after that, cries for yet more "improvements". Ad nauseaum until you're back at the WW2 MA. This is proven out by the history of the WW2 MA found right here on this board.

I might support a modified zeppelin idea though. I think the zeppelin should be in the shape of a big yellow floating banana. It should take 2/3rd of your ammo load in certain places to kill it. When you do kill it,  a score sound lifted from Super Mario should ring out on all vox channels in the arena and the text bar should flash "XXXXXXX got the banana powerup!" Then player XXXXXXX should have his gun leathality increased 100% for three minutes.

That should motivate a lot of the players and it would be one of the few things WW2 MA doesn't have yet.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Sunka on March 16, 2010, 09:07:55 PM
This is from the information right up on the WWI down load,This is the first paragraph.

(WW1 air combat comes to Aces High with the introduction of four new WW1 planes and the WW1 Dogfight Arena(s). The new arena(s) is designed for pure unadulterated WW1 dogfighting with no strat or capture.)

I think that says it all.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: BnZs on March 16, 2010, 09:22:33 PM
 
  Having it at some form of alt might help spread the fight out a bit so not everything is a spin in circles in the dirt fight.

  Oh well just an idea. :)

Yeah, I agree with this statement wholeheartedly. There would be a few more tactics for WWI planes other than getting locked into flat circles on the deck if things were just a little higher on average and people could dip into the alt bank a little. Might make it more than one zepplin.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Westy on March 17, 2010, 09:56:09 AM
I would LOVE  a zeppelin with multiple gunner points.  Cruise into an area
and you would certainly make a nice target but what blast a gasbag_star
would be.  
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: hitech on March 17, 2010, 09:58:08 AM
The people who are requesting other items seem to be missing the point. Almost anything suggest where people follow it by (it would not stop the fur balling) want to create a different mission then killing the other guy. Once you create a second mission you have created a reason to want to run away from any fight, or trying to by pass a fight to accomplish your other mission.

This by definition (going around a fight) drastically changes the type game play from A. To  win you must  fight to B. the best way to win is not to fight.

HiTech
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Masherbrum on March 17, 2010, 10:06:37 AM
The people who are requesting other items seem to be missing the point. Almost anything suggest where people follow it by (it would not stop the fur balling) want to create a different mission then killing the other guy. Once you create a second mission you have created a reason to want to run away from any fight, or trying to by pass a fight to accomplish your other mission.

This by definition (going around a fight) drastically changes the type game play from A. To  win you must  fight to B. the best way to win is not to fight.

HiTech

 :rock
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: waystin2 on March 17, 2010, 10:10:13 AM
I am glad to hear that Hitech has taken this stance as far as the WWI arena is concerned.  Thank you Sir! :aok
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: RaptorL on March 17, 2010, 10:15:09 AM
Then what happens to the WW1 arena if people lose complete interest in it?
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Toad on March 17, 2010, 10:27:44 AM
Once you create a second mission you have created a reason to want to run away from any fight, or trying to by pass a fight to accomplish your other mission.

This by definition (going around a fight) drastically changes the type game play from A. To  win you must  fight to B. the best way to win is not to fight.

HiTech

:salute


 :rock

Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Toad on March 17, 2010, 10:31:57 AM
Then what happens to the WW1 arena if  SOME people lose complete interest in it?


Fixed it for ya.

IF SOME people lose interest, they go back to the MA and are right where they were a week or so ago. Except of course that they have the new option of fighting in the WW1 arena as well.

The people that won't lose interest have a great place to perform the mission of any air force: to fly and to fight.

At the very worst, it becomes like the A v A where a group of people continue to have a lot of fun playing their kind of game without impacting the fun of those that love the MA style of play. The A v A has been around a looooooong time with a rather small cadre of enthusiasts.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Yeager on March 17, 2010, 10:37:42 AM
Then what happens to the WW1 arena if people lose complete interest in it?
Adding new machines from time to time keeps interest alive.

S.E.5.A and Albatross would be great addition for the next release cycle  :cheers:
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Miska on March 17, 2010, 10:38:46 AM
HT, thanks for the clear statements.  Although I would argue that accomplishing a mission is not the same as avoiding a fight. But it certainly is a different kind of fight than a furball, or a least, it is a fight at a very different spatial scale. I see what you are trying to do.  But I don't have to like it  :D

Vlas
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Flayed on March 17, 2010, 11:20:14 AM
  I thought about this for quite a while last night trying to compare the WW1 arena with something in life and what seemed to come to mind was Paintball.  I love to play paintball and really WW1 reminds me of that with my team facing an opposing team hunting each other in an attempt to shoot one another.
  The difference is in paintball when you shoot the other team they are out until the fight is over and one or other team is the winner, the game is reset and then you start again.  In the WW1 arena you can shoot as many guys as you can only to be swarmed by the same guys you just shot.  To me this feels like if I had shot someone in paintball and they say who cares and start shooting back at you no matter what. 

  This seems almost mindless.  As others have put it "2 conveyors leading to a meat grinder".    Don't get me wrong, I love the planes and it is fun to poke holes in the other guys canvas, for about 30 min and then it gets old I ask myself why?  Whats the point? 

   I'm not suggesting that one team shoot the other down and the loser has to wait until the last man goes down to re up. Not hard to see that wouldn't be popular and nothing else seems like it will work either.
 I've found that most of the guys I've talked to have about the same opinion, it's fun for a bit but in the end it's just not enough to fly to the grinder.  I would suggest that at some later date a second WW1 arena be worked out with more goals added but in all likelihood  it would end up like the early war arena with not enough of a population to really make it fun even if I do like it a lot.

  Hmm I guess I'm just a lot more goal oriented then I ever realized.

   
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: CptTrips on March 17, 2010, 11:36:43 AM
The people who are requesting other items seem to be missing the point. Almost anything suggest where people follow it by (it would not stop the fur balling) want to create a different mission then killing the other guy. Once you create a second mission you have created a reason to want to run away from any fight, or trying to by pass a fight to accomplish your other mission.

This by definition (going around a fight) drastically changes the type game play from A. To  win you must  fight to B. the best way to win is not to fight.

HiTech


So, by this logic, the fundemental design of the WWII arena is broken?   Or were they designed purposely to cause people to avoid a fight?

I think neither.  I think your WWII arena design is better than you give it credit.  

I think a mission that has team A is trying to accomplish that will result in negative results for team B  will cause team B to try and stop that mission.  Team A wishing to accomplish their mission will resist Team B's resistance.  Team B will resist team A's resistance of their resistance.  If they succeed, Team B is pissed and might decide to get revenge.  As long as the results of the mission are sufficiently negative to motivate, you've created conflict.  Conflict is the source of drama and fun.

The problem comes from the results of the mission not being sufficiently painful to the other team to motivate them to try and thwart it.  Or if the negative results are too abstract for the other team to recognize the linkage.  Team b doesn’t care to try and stop it, and team A won’t care to accomplish it.

Still, I’m not advocating base capture in WWI arena.  I do think base raid would be a good idea.  Its temporary.  The base isn’t taken, it’s just being stomped on.  Planes are straffed,  hangars set on fire.  It can’t last forever.  It’s hard to sustain for too long.  Manned ack positions can spawn.  The attackers fuel and damage will eventually resolve the matter.  In the meantime its suffienctly  humiliating to the team getting beotch-slapped that they will try and keep that from happening.  If it does, then the first thing they will think of is to return the favour.  

Conflict, hate, fun.

Regards,
Wab
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: hitech on March 17, 2010, 11:41:36 AM

So, by this logic, the fundemental design of the WWII arena is broken?   Or were they designed purposely to cause people to avoid a fight?

I think neither.  I think your WWII arena design is better than you give it credit.  

I think a mission that has team A is trying to accomplish that will result in negative results for team B  will cause team B to try and stop that mission.  Team A wishing to accomplish their mission will resist Team B's resistance.  Team B will resist team A's resistance of their resistance.  If they succeed, Team B is pissed and might decide to get revenge.  As long as the results of the mission are sufficiently negative to motivate, you've created conflict.  Conflict is the source of drama and fun.

The problem comes from the results of the mission not being sufficiently painful to the other team to motivate them to try and thwart it.  Or if the negative results are too abstract for the other team to recognize the linkage.  Team b doesn’t care to try and stop it, and team A won’t care to accomplish it.

Still, I’m not advocating base capture in WWI arena.  I do think base raid would be a good idea.  Its temporary.  The base isn’t taken, it’s just being stomped on.  Planes are straffed,  hangars set on fire.  It can’t last forever.  It’s hard to sustain for too long.  Manned ack positions can spawn.  The attackers fuel and damage will eventually resolve the matter.  In the meantime its suffienctly  humiliating to the team getting beotch-slapped that they will try and keep that from happening.  If it does, then the first thing they will think of is to return the favour.  

Conflict, hate, fun.

Regards,
Wab


AKWabbit no where in anything I have said in this thread have I implied that one type of play is better than the other. I have only stated the effects of one vs the other.

HiTech
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Oldman731 on March 17, 2010, 11:43:47 AM
Once you create a second mission you have created a reason to want to run away from any fight, or trying to by pass a fight to accomplish your other mission.

This by definition (going around a fight) drastically changes the type game play from A. To  win you must  fight to B. the best way to win is not to fight.

Very well put, and very true.

- oldman
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: CptTrips on March 17, 2010, 11:47:04 AM
AKWabbit no where in anything I have said in this thread have I implied that one type of play is better than the other. I have only stated the effects of one vs the other.

HiTech


Point taken.

But don't you feel that one team will resist a mission that would have a recognizable and painful outcome for them?

Wouldn't that create conflict?  The trick is to make sure the mission can't be accomplished without over coming the resistance and to sufficiently motivate the defender to resist.


Regards,
Wab

Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: WWhiskey on March 17, 2010, 11:49:13 AM
  I thought about this for quite a while last night trying to compare the WW1 arena with something in life and what seemed to come to mind was Paintball.  I love to play paintball and really WW1 reminds me of that with my team facing an opposing team hunting each other in an attempt to shoot one another.
  The difference is in paintball when you shoot the other team they are out until the fight is over and one or other team is the winner, the game is reset and then you start again.  In the WW1 arena you can shoot as many guys as you can only to be swarmed by the same guys you just shot.  To me this feels like if I had shot someone in paintball and they say who cares and start shooting back at you no matter what. 
  This seems almost mindless.  As others have put it "2 conveyors leading to a meat grinder".    Don't get me wrong, I love the planes and it is fun to poke holes in the other guys canvas, for about 30 min and then it gets old I ask myself why?  Whats the point? 
   I'm not suggesting that one team shoot the other down and the loser has to wait until the last man goes down to re up. Not hard to see that wouldn't be popular and nothing else seems like it will work either.
 I've found that most of the guys I've talked to have about the same opinion, it's fun for a bit but in the end it's just not enough to fly to the grinder.  I would suggest that at some later date a second WW1 arena be worked out with more goals added but in all likelihood  it would end up like the early war arena with not enough of a population to really make it fun even if I do like it a lot.
  Hmm I guess I'm just a lot more goal oriented then I ever realized.
set a goal, something that can be easy and easily increased, land three kills, if that's not hard enough try 5 or 10 ! then decide to kill one of each type of plane, launch and go find a dr1 then a d7 then a camel and a f2, then go land them, save the film and ,make a movie! this isn't capture the flag, that can be done in the other arenas, you have to decide what you want to accomplish in WW1 not what you want it to be for everyone else!
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: hitech on March 17, 2010, 12:18:13 PM

Point taken.

But don't you feel that one team will resist a mission that would have a recognizable and painful outcome for them?

Wouldn't that create conflict?  The trick is to make sure the mission can't be accomplished without over coming the resistance and to sufficiently motivate the defender to resist.


Regards,
Wab


Wab you seem to be not seeing the real goal of war. It is to win, not kill the other guy. For any ground mission, the best way to accomplish it is ALWAYS, not fight the other guy if possible.

People almost always would rather attack then defend. So if you make the out come very painful, both sides will just wish to attack more to give pain to the other side,in your thoughts you miss the idea that people will do what they find most fun, not what will stop the other guy from killing their fun. I.E. it's more fun to hurt the other guy, then to try not to be hurt. If the painful goal is accomplished against them they will log out because people will not want to play if the current play is pain full.

but we have now gone off topic and this is best for a different thread.

HiTech
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Miska on March 17, 2010, 12:23:19 PM
you have to decide what you want to accomplish in WW1...

That's exactly what I will do.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: AKKuya on March 17, 2010, 12:32:19 PM
Try to remember guys, the WW1 arenas are still pups.  They need time for HTC to add new planes and the Terrain teams to create new maps.  Afterall, Rome wasn't built in one day.

Right now is the time to hone the skills of WW1 aviators so when the new maps come out and added plansets and hopefully some integration of ground variable will enhance the newborn WW1 arenas.

Those who participate in Special Events.  I can't wait for the single life events to see how good I'll be as a WW1 aviator.  The first will probably be a Snapshot and the bragging will begin.

If you feel that HTC isn't moving fast enough then please feel free to send more than $14.95 a month.

Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: CptTrips on March 17, 2010, 12:33:26 PM
Wab you seem to be not seeing the real goal of war. It is to win, not kill the other guy. For any ground mission, the best way to accomplish it is ALWAYS, not fight the other guy if possible.

People almost always would rather attack then defend. So if you make the out come very painful, both sides will just wish to attack more to give pain to the other side,in your thoughts you miss the idea that people will do what they find most fun, not what will stop the other guy from killing their fun. I.E. it's more fun to hurt the other guy, then to try not to be hurt. If the painful goal is accomplished against them they will log out because people will not want to play if the current play is pain full.

but we have now gone off topic and this is best for a different thread.

HiTech




Fair enough, philosophical games design discussion for another time.  I’ll bring the scotch. ;)

But in the specific context of the WWI arena, would airfield raids be a good compromise?
 You aren't avoiding the fight if you are going directly to where the enemy lives.
 No one would risk the ack to raid a field where no one was at.
 It prevents the ack huggers from hiding under an impenetrable force field.
 It’s temporary.  
No base is taken or permanently damaged.
It’s a king of the hill sort of thing.  Tear stuff up, make a lot of noise, start some fires. Sirens,  gun fire, chaos.  Defenders upping manned ack positions. Then fuel, ammo and damage force a retreat.  The victims now plan to get even.  I’m not suggesting hangars are down.  I mean they are burning and stuff but people can still spawn planes and a certain number of ack.  
Also, if you have a configuration more like DA furball lake, the cost of pushing all the way to one base will be exposing your flank to the third team, making it even harder to sustain the raid for long.
Anyway, I think having the option to raid an airfield would add to the fun.  The WWI is fine the way it is.  Its meat and potatoes.  I’d just like a little A1 please.  ;)

Regards,
Wab
 

Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Raptor on March 17, 2010, 12:35:58 PM
I think a mission that has team A is trying to accomplish that will result in negative results for team B  will cause team B to try and stop that mission.  Team A wishing to accomplish their mission will resist Team B's resistance.  Team B will resist team A's resistance of their resistance.  If they succeed, Team B is pissed and might decide to get revenge.  As long as the results of the mission are sufficiently negative to motivate, you've created conflict.  Conflict is the source of drama and fun.
The problem is in the MA a lot of people do not want the conflict. They want the Win, in order to win they must capture bases. The best way to capture a base is for that base to have no resistance. The way to minimize resistance is to have NOE raids avoiding said conflict.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: PFactorDave on March 17, 2010, 12:40:14 PM




But in the specific context of the WWI arena, would airfield raids be a good compromise?
 You aren't avoiding the find if you are going directly to where the enemy lives.
 No one would risk the ack to raid a field where no one was at.
 It prevents the ack huggers from hiding under an impenetrable force field.
 It’s temporary.  
No base is taken or permanently damaged.
It’s a king of the hill sort of thing.  Tear stuff up, make a lot of noise, start some fires. Sirens,  gun fire, chaos.  Defenders upping manned ack positions. Then fuel, ammo and damage force a retreat.  The victims now plan to get even.  I’m not suggesting hangars are down.  I mean they are burning and stuff but people can still spawn planes and a certain number of ack.  
Also, if you have a configuration more like DA furball lake, the cost of pushing all the way to one base will be exposing your flank to the third team, making it even harder to sustain the raid for long.
Anyway, I think having the option to raid an airfield would add to the fun.  The WWI is fine the way it is.  Its meat and potatoes.  I’d just like a little A1 please.  ;)

 



I dunno...  I've been rather enjoying the total lack of runway vulching in the WW1 Arenas...

My opinion is that as it stands right now, if the arena is at or near 100/100, the player density is too high.  I came to this realization after playing for awhile in the nearly full arena, getting mobbed  or being part of a mob...  Then I switched to a less populated arena, I think there were about 30 players total...  The fights were mostly 4 vs 4 or 3 vs 4...  It was much much much more fun!

I simply think that with the current maps, 100 players may be a bit too dense...
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: CptTrips on March 17, 2010, 12:45:37 PM
I dunno...  I've been rather enjoying the total lack of runway vulching in the WW1 Arenas...

My opinion is that as it stands right now, if the arena is at or near 100/100, the player density is too high.  I came to this realization after playing for awhile in the nearly full arena, getting mobbed  or being part of a mob...  Then I switched to a less populated arena, I think there were about 30 players total...  The fights were mostly 4 vs 4 or 3 vs 4...  It was much much much more fun!

I simply think that with the current maps, 100 players may be a bit too dense...


I think that perhaps some of that is due to the field configuration.  Each opposing field pair feeds a straightline conveyor belt into a single meat-grider.

Eventually if things could spread out more, you'd have a variety of different fight densities.

REgards,
Wab



Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Yeager on March 17, 2010, 12:53:09 PM
if the arena is at or near 100/100, the player density is too high. 

I simply think that with the current maps, 100 players may be a bit too dense...
I agree completely.  Last night one arena had 100 and the other had 4.  The rest were empty.  I played in the 100 player arena for about 15 minutes and it was simply too crowded for my enjoyment.  I went into the arena with four players and had a great time.  Soon there were about 20 players in there and it was still a ball!  100+ is just too many for this aging kid.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: hubsonfire on March 17, 2010, 01:30:04 PM
The problem is in the MA a lot of people do not want the conflict. They want the Win, in order to win they must capture bases. The best way to capture a base is for that base to have no resistance. The way to minimize resistance is to have NOE raids avoiding said conflict.

That same tendency isn't limited to the MAs- it's also readily apparent in the WW1 arenas. Balloons, strafing ground positions, tanks, infantry, bombing things- anything but actually fighting and defeating the other guy. Somewhat surprising is that people continue to argue that things aside from combat, promote combat, when really all they are looking for are the game mechanics they are familiar with, except disguised as bananas or cherries instead of hangars and ack. The ability to attack an inanimate object, and get a "win", and then start all over again. Mindless repetition, indeed.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: hitech on March 17, 2010, 01:39:04 PM
I agree completely.  Last night one arena had 100 and the other had 4.  The rest were empty.  I played in the 100 player arena for about 15 minutes and it was simply too crowded for my enjoyment.  I went into the arena with four players and had a great time.  Soon there were about 20 players in there and it was still a ball!  100+ is just too many for this aging kid.

I tend to agree also that 100 is a bit to high. With 100 normal fights would be about  16 v 16

HiTech
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: SlapShot on March 17, 2010, 02:03:45 PM
I went into the WWI arena on the first day with great expectations and was somewhat disappointed.

1) Ganging is still the norm ... if you are into "it" with someone, you will soon find that you are into "it" with many ... same as WWII MA. People just can keep themselves off to the side and let what already started ... finish.

2) HOing is still the first move ... I flew, for what seemed an eternity, to an airfield that wasn't supplying the treadmill hoping to get someone to up. Low and behold, I have a taker. I circle outside the ack zone waiting and giving him some time to get up to speed. I turn into him about 2.5K out setting up for the "fight". At D400 the Hoin' starts and I get a pilot wound ... OH JOY ... I fly all this way to get HOed on the first merge ... I should have known better. In the meantime another person ups and of course has to jump in ... I obviously got killed. Flew a few more sorties back and it was the "same 'ol same 'ol" ... I logged and haven't been back.

It may be a "dogfighting" only arena, but the dogfighter mentality is still WWII MA ... :frown:

I love the dogfight, but the mindless furballing does not ring my bell anymore.

=== AN IDEA ===

I hope Toad doesn't think that I have turned to the "dark side" but what if ...

Instead of making "fields' objectives, use blimps instead.

Each team would have blimps on their respective fronts. Your team downs a blimp ... you own it and it represents your ground forces have moved forward ... get the most amount of blimps (you have conquered the most amount of the "front") and you win.

Why blimps and not airfields ?

Blimps are in the air and to down them, you have to be in the air ... so there is no need to add the primitive bombers or ground vehicles to move forward to the objective. All actions to defend or attack is in the air with dogfighters. Your either dogfighting to defend a blimp or your dogfighting your way in to take down the blimp.

Now ... to take down a blimp would not be a simple task.

1) It would be a very "hard" target ... lots of bullets would be needed to down it.

2) Bullet damage would be cumulative, by country, with no repair time. If blimps are attacked they will eventually go down if the effort is put forth.

3) Blimps would have ack, which can be taken out, but they will repair within a specified time frame.

By shifting the objective from the 'ground' (taking a base) to the 'air' (downing a blimp), I can't see why this would not generate some terrific air battles.

Mind you ... this could be just one WWI arena ... there still could be another WWI arena that has no 'objective' but pure furballin'.

==================

I too agree that it would be nice if the WWI arenas offer something more diversified when it comes to the 'map' and I am sure they will. Like Toad pointed out, different types of fighting venues ... canyons ... beaches ... mountains.

I haven't been here since beta, but I have been here since 2002, so I know what Toad is saying and I have to agree with him on one hand ... on the other hand, I like to have something to strive for or defend against ... furballing to just furball just doesn't do it for me. I remember back in the day when I flew with the 13th and we would join up with the BKs to defend against CV attacks ... some of the best fights that I have ever had in the past eight years were a result of those attacks ... had those guys on the CVs not wanted to take a base ... those fights never would have happened.

EDIT:

Another thing I would like to see happen in the WWI arenas ... get rid of the Knight/Bish/Rook notion ... find something else ... something new and refreshing.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Toad on March 17, 2010, 02:48:24 PM
Slap, first of all, there is no lack of good fights in WW1 right now.

I've pretty much been following Dicta Skuzzy as posted and have no trouble finding good engagements. Usually, diving down through the edge of the caribou herd will be enough to get one to follow you out to clear air. Plus, there's any number of 2 V 1s that you can join to even things up to 2 v 2.

Secondly, no matter how appealing or how innocuous these ideas appear to be, the real problem is that it never stops there and you know it. HT has explained the instant shift in game philosophy that happens when you put these factors into the mix.

I'm totally with HT as he's put it out in this thread.

You ought to give it another try. As Yeager said, the half (or less) full arenas give you a great opportunity to have fun using Dicta Skuzzy.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Ghosth on March 17, 2010, 02:55:41 PM
For those of you feeling "horded" and run through the meat grinder. Might I suggest you try a "Dawn Patrol" some morning.

Normally 7-10 oclock sees anywhere from 14 - 24 people on. Fights are smaller, if you show restraint diving into a 1v1  eventually they may show you some. Do what I do, not what I say always works better than do what I say, not what I do.  :) 


Watch out though as the skill level tends to be quite high.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: SlapShot on March 17, 2010, 03:20:51 PM
Secondly, no matter how appealing or how innocuous these ideas appear to be, the real problem is that it never stops there and you know it.

I understand all that ... it's just human nature to want to improve upon things ... if it wasn't, we would still be driving Model Ts and flying around in Sopwith Camels ... ;)

I guess I need to give it another chance.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: CptTrips on March 17, 2010, 03:24:25 PM
I understand all that ... it's just human nature to want to improve upon things ... if it wasn't, we would still be driving Model Ts and flying around in Sopwith Camels ... ;)

I guess I need to give it another chance.

Toad might want to look this over:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope)

Regards,
Wab
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Skuzzy on March 17, 2010, 03:26:25 PM
Slapshot, just remember this.  If you want it one way, you can safely assume someone else does too.

Yesterday, the arena was in a state where there were two opposing fields with no one flying between them.  I took off from one of the empty fields.  In less than 30 seconds, someone was upping from the other field.

Two like-minded people.  We had a blast.

If flying to the mob is not what you want to do, then do not do it.  I would be willing to bet there is someone else feeling the same way.  You just have to present the opportunity or take the lead and make it happen.  Maybe it will, maybe it won't.  It will not cost much to try though and the reward is worth the effort.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Toad on March 17, 2010, 03:31:06 PM
Thanks, Wab. I was aware of that fallacy.

Problem is we have the hard evidence here on this BBS and in the WW2 MAs. The camel owns the tent now.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Toad on March 17, 2010, 03:32:05 PM
Yesterday, the arena was in a state where there were two opposing fields with no one flying between them.  I took off from one of the empty fields.  In less than 30 seconds, someone was upping from the other field.


Same experience here.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: SlapShot on March 17, 2010, 03:32:38 PM
Slapshot, just remember this.  If you want it one way, you can safely assume someone else does too.

Yesterday, the arena was in a state where there were two opposing fields with no one flying between them.  I took off from one of the empty fields.  In less than 30 seconds, someone was upping from the other field.

Two like-minded people.  We had a blast.

If flying to the mob is not what you want to do, then do not do it.  I would be willing to bet there is someone else feeling the same way.  You just have to present the opportunity or take the lead and make it happen.  Maybe it will, maybe it won't.  It will not cost much to try though and the reward is worth the effort.

Skuzzy ... been there ... done that.

As I explained in my post above ... I flew to an empty airfield to get away from the treadmill ... 1 guy did up ... was HOed immediately on the first merge ... pilot wounded ... continued to fight and whatdayaknow ... another lifter decides to join the party. Came back to the same airfield ... same 2 guys ... both attack at the same time and both HO on the first merge. Kept them off for awhile best I could but the outcome was inevitable.

Like I said ... I will give it another shot.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Toad on March 17, 2010, 03:37:29 PM
Here's the thing Slap; you got a 1 v 1 out of the deal. It just turned out he was a HO shooter. How many trenches, zeppelins, manned ack, burning hangars, destroyed fuel would change that?

It's not the game, the arena or the setup; it's the players.

Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: SlapShot on March 17, 2010, 03:46:07 PM
Here's the thing Slap; you got a 1 v 1 out of the deal. It just turned out he was a HO shooter. How many trenches, zeppelins, manned ack, burning hangars, destroyed fuel would change that?

It's not the game, the arena or the setup; it's the players.



I got a 1 v 1 ... but there was no "fight".

Your right ... "It's not the game, the arena or the setup; it's the players" ... but, just because the arena name says WWI on it does not mean that the WWII MA ganging / HOing mentality is "left at the door" ... my experience so far is it's the same ... just different planes.

I guess I was hoping ... I should have know better and not set myself up for disappointment.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: CptTrips on March 17, 2010, 03:51:18 PM
Toad,

I'm curious.

Do you think allowing the huggers to orbit in an impenatrable force field of ack promote the fight?

Wab
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Toad on March 17, 2010, 04:06:08 PM
Wab, last time I saw guys near ack, it was killing friendlies and enemies indiscrimnantly.

However, if some doof wants to send HT $15 a month to fly circles above a field in his ack cocoon, who am I to tell him he can't do it? It's his money; I'm not going to tell him to play my way. I am probably the guy that will dive into the ack as close to him as I can get so the ack would kill us both though.  :lol

Now let me ask you a question:

Do you REALLY think that adding a zeppelin/balloon/trench with even more ack is suddenly going to install a spine in people that are afraid to fight?

Again, there's absolutely no shortage of fights in the WW1 arena at present. There's plenty of kills getting recorded.

What some apparently have a problem with is that the fights are not to their liking.

To that, I'll just again say that Dicta Skuzzy will solve most of those problems. You can find whatever fight you're willing to look for any night you choose. Not every single time; that's not true in any arena. More often than not though.

I guess I just can't grasp the premise that making WW1 more like WW2 is somehow going to improve the quality of the fights. All you hear about fights in the MA is hordes, ganging and HO shots. Few like the fights in the MA, yet they want to make WW1 like the MA in order to improve the fights.  :rolleyes:

The whole objective thing is a red herring anyway.

It's the players, not the playground.
 
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: CptTrips on March 17, 2010, 04:14:36 PM
Wab, last time I saw guys near ack, it was killing friendlies and enemies indiscrimnantly.


I'm sorry, I don't think you answered my question.

Try a yes or no.

Regards,
Wab

Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Toad on March 17, 2010, 04:27:49 PM
I'm sorry, I don't think you read my reply.

It's immaterial whether or not allowing ack huggers to hug ack promotes the fight for two reasons.

1. It's THEIR $15/month; I'm certainly not going to tell them they have to play they way I think they should play.

2. The ack huggers in WW1 have no effect on the availability of fights. There's PLENTY of players outside the ack having what they consider to be good fights. How can I say this yet again? The fight doesn't need promoting in WW1; there are LOTS of fights going on, LOTS of kills getting recorded, LOTS of air combat.

You didn't answer my question either. Do you think a zeppelin/balloon/trench with more ack is going to promote the fight? Why ever would that be, if these same people are hugging the ack at their field?
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Yeager on March 17, 2010, 04:29:18 PM
Toad,

I'm curious.

Do you think allowing the huggers to orbit in an impenatrable force field of ack promote the fight?

Wab
Oooh me  pick me!!!
In my experience it is a moving force field used as necessary.  As soon as enough of the hoarding reds died off down in the weeds near the green airfield they were encroaching on in superior numbers, the half dozen green guys grabbing a few hundred feet a minute in the protection of the ack went fourth giving chase in the odd way that only chases happenin at 90-110 mph can go.  In any situation, when you take 10 guys at a disadvantage and pit them up against 20 guys in a superior position they are going to circle the wagons.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: SlapShot on March 17, 2010, 04:35:23 PM

It's the players, not the playground.
 

Isn't the basic general premise of the current AvA arena the same as the WWI arenas ... dogfighting and not "Win the War" ?

I could be wrong, but isn't the AvA setup to pit like/equal allies/axis planes against each other in a "real" geographic setting and not to capture bases to reset the map ? ... so if the playgrounds are similar in their basic intent then why aren't there as many people in AvA (past and present) as there has been in the WWI arenas since they have opened ? ... my guess (I know it's a stretch) ... it's something NEW and when the shine wears off the exterior ... well look at AvA.

I believe that once the newness of the WWI airplanes wears off ... it will be a ghost town for the most part ... just like AvA ... and that would be a shame.

I don't think for one second that Dale and Doug believe that the WWI participation will keep up at the pace that they are seeing, for an extended period of time, keeping it status quo.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Toad on March 17, 2010, 04:39:04 PM
That may be Slap but changing it into another WW2 MA isn't a step forward either.

I think they'll eventually tinker with it but I think the tinkering will be based on finding a different way forward in gameplay.

Look how long the AvA has lasted though. I doubt it will close anytime soon. Probably the same reason restaurants have more than one item on their menus.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: CptTrips on March 17, 2010, 04:44:19 PM
I'm sorry, I don't think you read my reply.
...
You didn't answer my question either. Do you think a zeppelin/balloon/trench with more ack is going to promote the fight? Why ever would that be, if these same people are hugging the ack at their field?

I think it does not promote the fight.  Any artificial force field that prevents me from getting at the enemies throat is not promoting the fight.  I've flown all the way to bases and they just circle inside and we just circle outside until I auger in disgust.  I'm just asking for a chance to dive in and get them.  I'm ok with some ack.  I'm ok with that being very dangerous, but making it pointless insta-death just does not promote the fight.  

The zeppelins and balloons were not my suggestion.  Wether or not they would promote fights depends I think on what the penalty would be for the team not to protect them.  The ack huggers circle in the ack because there is no penalty for doing so.  Infact, its an advantage.  And I'm not asking for more ack.  I'm asking for less, and maybe make some of it manned instead.


Regards,
Wab
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: hymijr on March 17, 2010, 05:02:35 PM
just a thought
maybe we could set up some guns in the fields outside and send troops at them.......lots of them
the troops could capture guns and get the fields
it will work the same as MA after a % is captured then we win
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Toad on March 17, 2010, 05:11:11 PM
Wab, IIRC, you said you liked this idea of Baumer's.

So that brings me to my proposed arena change. I'd like to see a trench line between the countries with ack on both sides...  


(http://332nd.org/dogs/baumer/BBS%20Stuff/ww1arena.jpg)



So what do you think is going to happen behind that impenetrable line of ack (assuming the ack is like the base ack)?

As Yeager pointed out, people climbing in the base ack come out eventually. I doubt anyone pays $15/month to endlessly circle in base ack. I think, as Yeag says, when the (usually) overwhelming threat backs off to between the fields, the uppers come out an get in the game.

I can't believe you're really having a hard time finding targets.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Yeager on March 17, 2010, 05:12:19 PM
I believe that once the newness of the WWI airplanes wears off ... it will be a ghost town for the most part ... just like AvA ...
If we could get it down to 40-50 peeps on average at peak evening times it would be a beautiful  beautiful thing.  Of course, thats my personal preference.  

It wont be a ghost town I can assure you.  Its not like there are 15 arenas set up in half a dozen different settings using at least 5 different planesets staring at you in the login screen.  There are four planes (currently) in a very limited number of arenas and a small (but growing) dedicated fanbase of hardcore afficianados of WW1 air war and ACM.  Have a little faith, think outside the LW box.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: CptTrips on March 17, 2010, 05:23:00 PM
Wab, IIRC, you said you liked this idea of Baumer's.

So what do you think is going to happen behind that impenetrable line of ack (assuming the ack is like the base ack)?


Toad,

Did you even look at the image you just posted?   

It simply alters the traffic flow slightly towards the center.  It can still be flanked.  I can still reach the enemy base. (it should probably extended farther to the outside beyond which anyone would want to fly the back way.)  It doesn't prevent me from getting at the enemies throat.  It just makes me fly a little closer to the middle where the 3rd team can get at me easier, promoting more fights.

I thought the idea had enough merit to discuss.  Thats not the same as it having been my suggestion.


Regards,
Wab
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Sunka on March 17, 2010, 05:31:12 PM
Wab, IIRC, you said you liked this idea of Baumer's.

(http://332nd.org/dogs/baumer/BBS%20Stuff/ww1arena.jpg)



So what do you think is going to happen behind that impenetrable line of ack (assuming the ack is like the base ack)?

As Yeager pointed out, people climbing in the base ack come out eventually. I doubt anyone pays $15/month to endlessly circle in base ack. I think, as Yeag says, when the (usually) overwhelming threat backs off to between the fields, the uppers come out an get in the game.

I can't believe you're really having a hard time finding targets.
Leave the one on one area in the middle alone!IM having fun fights and dont want to change everything!
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Pongo on March 17, 2010, 05:36:37 PM
Make A1 a rook field and A2 a knight field.
Force side balance to within 10%
Allow side switching at will(no strat who cares)
Put low level robo mgs along both sides of no mans land.(puffy ack 1/10th as dangerous as the current base ack just for enviroment)
Put in refuel spots.
Allow players to walk the 2km home if they ditch in friendly.
Add a few light clouds etc.
A few indestructible spotting balloons also just for enviroment
Turn enemy icons way down, maybe off.
and
limit arena to 60 and each field to 16 planes.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Sunka on March 17, 2010, 05:39:53 PM

Turn enemy icons way down,

^^Dose need done.I can see an icon coming at me 3 minuets before i ever engage them.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Toad on March 17, 2010, 06:06:19 PM

Toad,

Did you even look at the image you just posted?   

Did you?

Are you ignoring the fact it gives the same people you want to boot out of the field ack another place to circle in safety? So now you've got three places they can hover. That's an improvement?

Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Nr_RaVeN on March 17, 2010, 06:25:43 PM
Make A1 a rook field and A2 a knight field.
Force side balance to within 10%
Allow side switching at will(no strat who cares)
Put low level robo mgs along both sides of no mans land.(puffy ack 1/10th as dangerous as the current base ack just for enviroment)
Put in refuel spots.
Allow players to walk the 2km home if they ditch in friendly.
Add a few light clouds etc.
A few indestructible spotting balloons also just for enviroment
Turn enemy icons way down, maybe off.
and
limit arena to 60 and each field to 16 planes.
Yea But with enemy Icons Off and really short friendly icons.

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,285684.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,285684.0.html)


With every one complaining about getting horded in the WWI arena I wish for one of the 4 WWI areans to be set up



No Icon WWI arena
Not to be confused with the Axis V allies arena.
As Axis V allies or The central powers V Allied Powers ONLY 2 country's
for the guys that do like it.
 
There are 3-4 WWI arenas already.

This way the hording is greatly reduced wile game play is enhanced.
As a WWI buff shooting at A D7 wile I'm flying one kills the fun.

 If I'm in a Camel I don't want to be shooting at a camel.

Each air craft has its own attributes and weaknesses flying opposing aircraft allows tactics to be used to take advantage of the attributes of a particular aircraft wile exploiting the other aircrafts weaknesses. kind of how it was in WWI. and WW2 for that matter.

Besides that the imagery of the WWI paint schemes and AC design should be allowed to show though with out being diluted with immersion killing icons. .

A NO icon WWI arena would be allot of fun.

 The bases are close lending themselves to the perfect no icon environment, for those that would be up to the challenge.

With 4 arenas it cant hurt to set one up like that. Perhaps just keeping short friendly icons to help with the team work.

I hope HTC would consider this option to add immersion to there great WWI add on
:x :cheers: :bolt:


 
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Krusty on March 17, 2010, 06:28:15 PM
^^Dose need done.I can see an icon coming at me 3 minuets before i ever engage them.

Nope... going 100mph, which is 1.666... miles per minute, and seeing an icon 3 minutes out puts it at 5 miles, or 8k. Icons only show at 6k, which is 3.6 miles (well within human eyesight's ability to start IDing a plane! VERY short range!).

Instead, you get icons about 2 minutes out, which is about 3.3 miles (close enough for this example).

It's not the icon that's your problem, it's the slow closure rate. Don't blame the icon for the plane flying 100mph or less!

On the other hand, I do agree that seeing the screenshots thus far, it has been pretty cluttered.... Perhaps a "smaller" icon, or some minimal version of it for the WW1 arenas? Really clutters up the sky from the vids and pics I've seen.

NOT because the icons are bad, but because they are ugly as sin.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: BaldEagl on March 17, 2010, 06:29:28 PM
I think it does not promote the fight.  Any artificial force field that prevents me from getting at the enemies throat is not promoting the fight.  I've flown all the way to bases and they just circle inside and we just circle outside until I auger in disgust.  I'm just asking for a chance to dive in and get them.  I'm ok with some ack.  I'm ok with that being very dangerous, but making it pointless insta-death just does not promote the fight.

All that would do is promote vulching.  Nice fight.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: cattb on March 17, 2010, 06:34:52 PM
Theres plenty of fighting in the WW1 arenas. There is some people going to the middle for 1v1.
 Skirt the edge of a fight a draw some fighters out. Downfall thou if not far enough out you could be dogpiled.(bring a wingman or 2)
Yes there is people making hot merges. Firing at 400 out for a HO in the first merge of a fight. Not any difference then the MA. Plan ahead and prepare and try not to get HOed.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: SIK1 on March 17, 2010, 06:47:38 PM
I'm having a blast in the WW1 arenas. It is possible to find just about any kind of action you desire. Yes there are those that try to HO on the initial merge, and there are those that only run in the horde, but for the most part people seem to show a little respect in there. Something not often seen in the MA. Hopefully with the emphasis on the dogfight the less skilled at it will either learn or go back to the LWA

Anyway you have to love when a D7 dives down trying to take the HO shot starts firing and doing the nose bob thing HOers do then the gear and wings rip off. The first time I saw that happen I almost augered I was laughing so hard.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Nr_RaVeN on March 17, 2010, 07:10:19 PM

On the other hand, I do agree that seeing the screenshots thus far, it has been pretty cluttered.... Perhaps a "smaller" icon, or some minimal version of it for the WW1 arenas? Really clutters up the sky from the vids and pics I've seen.

NOT because the icons are bad, but because they are ugly as sin.

Any Icon is ugly as sin and in that venue with base proximity is unnecessary.

 Any icon in a WWI sim only diffuses the imagery of the WWI experience.
it would be great to have one of the arena's set up with no enemy icon. short friendly icon. Central powers against allied powers... and Watch it grow.
 Build it and they will come. :salute
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: CptTrips on March 17, 2010, 08:03:41 PM
Did you?

Are you ignoring the fact it gives the same people you want to boot out of the field ack another place to circle in safety? So now you've got three places they can hover. That's an improvement?

OK lets compromise.

I'll give up the inter-field ack idea, and you give up the insta-deth field ack.  Deal?   :aok

Do you need it that bad? :)


Regards,
Wab
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Krusty on March 17, 2010, 08:04:42 PM
The quality of human eyesight did not improve 20 fold between the wars.

You could see the same things, you just had more time to react and less options for your reaction.

Pretending you need less ability to ID anything, its orientation, it's make, model, the colors on the wings, in WW1 as compared to WW2 is just baseless.

Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: CptTrips on March 17, 2010, 08:12:28 PM
I can't believe you're really having a hard time finding targets.


And I can't believe you are co-enabling ack huggers.  ;)

Don't get me wrong Toad.  I do like the current WWI.  That doesn't mean there can't be a few tweaks to add a little more varaiety without getting into full strat.  Again, I'm not talking base captures.


Regards,
Wab





Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Toad on March 17, 2010, 08:23:27 PM
OK lets compromise.

I'll give up the inter-field ack idea, and you give up the insta-deth field ack.  Deal?   :aok

Do you need it that bad? :)


Regards,
Wab

I think I've been killed by field ack about 3-4 times, all but one at the enemy field. The one time I got killed at my field, I was coming back to land with no fuel and there was an enemy near the field engaged with another friendly. They got all three of us.

If you think I hang in the ack, you obviously haven't been around me at all.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Toad on March 17, 2010, 08:28:17 PM

And I can't believe you are co-enabling ack huggers.  ;)


You shouldn't believe it, because I'm doing no such thing. OTOH, I am certainly not going to tell others how to play. This game is FULL of ack huggers; they're all over the MA and !!! surprise !!! they are in WW1 as well. I just ignore them; there's plenty of fighters without worrying about the non-fighters. Sooner or later they come out of the ack anyway. Otherwise, they die of boredom.


Quote
Don't get me wrong Toad.  I do like the current WWI.  That doesn't mean there can't be a few tweaks to add a little more varaiety without getting into full strat.  Again, I'm not talking base captures.

I'd be with you except we both know there will NEVER be "a few tweaks". There would be instead a "few tweaks" this week, a "few tweaks" next week, a "few tweaks next month" ad nauseaum.

Two years down the road you'd have the WW2 MA recreated.

Can't let it get started here or the Camel that owns the tent won't be an airplane.






[/quote]
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Miska on March 17, 2010, 09:49:47 PM
Actually, it turns out that historical flying, at least at the moment, is a very practicable proposition in the WWI arena.  Lets hope the numbers stay up.

AAR 1: Took off from NW Knight field in an F2b with objective of getting recce photos of SW enemy field.  About half way, alt 5k, encountered three EA slightly below me.  Made a couple of guns passes, but more were coming.  Made a last pass and extended east.  Diverted to a secondary objective, a field further east along the river.  Overflew the field at 7k.  As I was taking the pictures, I noticed a D7 at my low 6, about 2000 yards away.  He followed me to a point halfway to my field.  I turned to engage him, made several passes. He lost alt and I broke off. Landed the pics.  Very interesting E fight, very vertical. F2b vs D7.

AAR 2: Took off from same field, F2b, on patrol.  Nearing an enemy field at about 4k, I saw an enemy observer climbing NW away from the field.  After a few minutes chase, he turned and engaged.  This led to an absolutely epic 1v1 that ranged from 5k to the ground.  Just as my aircraft developed a fuel leak, the enemy collided with me.  He fell out of control and hit the ground. I was able to nurse my aircraft to within sight of my field, at which point I ran out of fuel and landed.  I'll try to figure out how to post the film for this because it is worth watching.

AAR 3: Same field, F2b, front patrol.  I reached the SW end of the front at about 7k and flew NE.  I saw an enemy observer flying on his side of the lines, also on a NE heading, about 6k alt.  I paced him with the objective of keeping him on his side of the lines, and shooting him down if I had an opportunity.  Three enemy single seaters were behind us at about 6k alt.  The enemy observer turned N to cross the lines. I put my nose down and intercepted him.  When I got within about 1000 yards on his 9, he turned back.  I climbed back up to 7k.  He continued flying along the front on his side of the lines for several more minutes.  By then, we had outrun the enemy single seaters and I decided to engage.  I crossed to the enemy side of the lines and closed.  After a few passes, I had an energy advantage and he extended south away from the lines.  I put several bursts into him from within 200 yards, and he began leaking fuel. At that moment his gunner came alive and I took a bad burst that wounded me, damaged my fuel tank, and my engine.  I dove for my lines and landed on friendly ground, while my plane was still working.  Very interesting and tactical fight that ranged over the whole length of the front.

The front is very usable.  HT, perhaps it could be a bit longer on a future map?  The map itself doesn't have to be larger, but if the front could cover the entire diagonal instead of just part of it, we'd have an even better playing field. Apparently, there are already few squads and players who enjoy flying a historical mission profile once in a while.  After these rather exhausting flights, I went and got a few kills on the edge of the furball :)

Vlas
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Miska on March 17, 2010, 09:52:54 PM
I'd be with you except we both know there will NEVER be "a few tweaks". There would be instead a "few tweaks" this week, a "few tweaks" next week, a "few tweaks next month" ad nauseaum.

Toad, I understand what you are saying, but I think you fail to appreciate that the WWI player is a different species :)  To most dedicated WWI simmers, the historical atmosphere and the study of conditions is much more important that scores and observable impacts on the arena.  In any case, I'm having a great time.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: CptTrips on March 17, 2010, 10:20:58 PM
Can't let it get started here or the Camel that owns the tent won't be an airplane.

Well I'm sure there plenty we will disagree on.  Maybe we can find something we do agree on.

I've seen you alot in the DA recently.  Do you think the DA 3 field arangement is better than what is essientially a 2 field arrangement in WWI now? (really a series of 2 field arrangements)
If nothing changed except a 3 field arrangements more like the DA lake, where all three teams could mix it up in the same airspace, and maybe some puffy white clouds at 3k, could you live with that?

P.S.  Sorry for my earlier snippy replies.  Utterly crappy day at work.


:salute,
Wab
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Toad on March 17, 2010, 11:03:05 PM
Toad, I understand what you are saying, but I think you fail to appreciate that the WWI player is a different species :)  To most dedicated WWI simmers, the historical atmosphere and the study of conditions is much more important that scores and observable impacts on the arena.  In any case, I'm having a great time.

That's just what we used to say from beta on to about 2-3 years of AH development. I sure don't say it anymore.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Toad on March 17, 2010, 11:20:48 PM
Well I'm sure there plenty we will disagree on.  Maybe we can find something we do agree on.

I've seen you alot in the DA recently.  Do you think the DA 3 field arangement is better than what is essientially a 2 field arrangement in WWI now? (really a series of 2 field arrangements)

Yes, except I think the DA Furball Lake area is too small.

It'd be WAY too small for 100 players. Plus, the 5k fields diving to the lake would have to change. I'd like to see regular terrain with three fields spaced farther than Furball Lake with some hills, canyons, trees, buildings. Not a lot farther apart but, certainly more the FL.

My basic premise Wab is that fighters will ALWAYS fight. You don't need gimmicks to get them to engage. They're like a pistol, point them and pull the trigger...they're gone.

The non-fighters, the guys that want to toolshed, really can't be made to fight. You can put a bunch of gimmicks in to get them to expose themselves but they'll never be happy. This will lead to them demanding more restrictive or advantageous gimmicks that just clutter up the fights.

This is all IMO, of course. I know others will disagree.

I think some egos just can't handle getting bested. Thus are born the ack huggers.   ;)

Thankfully, I got over that a long time ago. There's way better sticks than me and I know it. I have my fun though. I win some and lose some. I've had 5 kill sorties followed by 5 sorties where I died without killing one. Not afraid to get shot down, have a ball when I shoot someone else down.


 :salute



Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Flayed on March 17, 2010, 11:40:03 PM
  Toad the 3 field setup don't sound bad but I don't see any reason to lower the fields. In fact 5K fields sounds nice so at least the fight could start out at some form of alt and work its way down. 

 Right now the spin in the dirt fighting is one of the biggest detractors for me. Besides if people can just up and fly level it will just save a min or two of climbing and let everyone get back into the grinder that much quicker. and from what I've seen so far zoom in and pick guys aren't a big problem.

 Hmm wonder if it would look like some form of tornado with a swirling mass of planes losing alt from 5 K down lol :)
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Toad on March 18, 2010, 12:05:40 AM
Just going on what happens at Furball Lake. The guy you just killed pops off the cliff 5k above where you killed him and just a few minutes flying time from where you are. If you're still in a fight, he'll be back on top of you before  you know it.

The fights do end up in the dirt; I really don't see a reason to give the guy you just killed an instant 5k advantage.

I'd rather have him take off at roughly the altitude the fight was at. He'll be able to climb some before he gets to you but he can't dive at VNE to get back above you in nothing flat.

Just my thoughts.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Toad on March 18, 2010, 12:22:02 AM
A note on icons.

First of all, they're here because your monitor doesn't provide anywhere close to the same visual cues you'd be getting in the air. It can't. Aspect, closure, shape, color, etc, etc,; you'd see and understand far more at a glance in the air than you ever will on a PC monitor.

Back around 2002 I made some posts with actual pictures of aircraft to help show the difference but they apparently got lost in the BBS revisions/HD crashes.

These two later ones survive but only give a bit of the info.


http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,58463.msg538003.html#msg538003

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,10132.msg132942.html#msg132942

Suffice it to say HT put the icons in for a legitimate, realistic reason.

Still, if you think they're too big, like I do, you do know that you can make them smaller, right?

"Players may customize the icon colors and font sizes in Aces High by clicking Options->Preferences->GUI from the clipboard menu."

Go to font size on that page and select Size 10. It's the smallest and I think it helps a lot. For me, it's hard to read the range numbers, it's that small.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: SIK1 on March 18, 2010, 12:37:15 AM
5K! I normally don't fly above 1K. The other day I made it up to 3K and man that is up there.

We don't need anything that makes the player more timid. I have already seen people that are hesitant to engage 1v1. I do like the ack setup, and the  lethality as it is right now. If you didn't have it the fights would be right on the airfields, at times. I don't think I have really seen anyone hug the ack for very long. Just enough to get a little alt, then off to the fight.

Also saw a group of four chase a Dr1 around and all I could think was mine, mine, mine. I said something on range about it, and then it got quite. They did of course continue to follow the Dr1. I do think the Dr1 guy had some skill cause he was holding his own against them, or at least it looked that way as I rtb'd.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Ghosth on March 18, 2010, 07:54:24 AM
At this point the biggest single change in the fights in the WWI arena is more about numbers than anything else.

Dawn patrol mornings see 15-20 on, those who are here at this hour tend to be quite good.
The fights generally tend to be pretty good too. Sometimes too good for my limited skills.
(<S> Cattb, Revrand, and all those who regularly kill me in the morning)

Afternoons see 40 - 50 on, and to me this time is the best.
You have a mix of very good pilots, average pilots and some not so good.
Granted some of the average and not so good pilots will HO, will Collide on HO, and a few other things.
But this is more a matter of education and teaching than arena setup.

Evenings with 80 - 100 on is a meat grinder.
You either take your chances with the big furball, do a skuzzy and try to drag one out.
Or go to the center looking for a 1on1.

What I'd like to see change at this point, now the the first rush is past.
Lower the cap to 50- 60 so that we get 2 lower populated arena's in prime time.
Other than prime time it won't change much.

As to the acks, turn the tables. So your trying to take off, there are 5 at your field, and 15 guys at 3k waiting for someone to come out. You going to dive into that at less than 1k knowing that 12 of the 15 will be on your 6?

You don't want someone to hide in the ack, don't fly clear over to their field.
Stop and orbit no more than 2k up at the halfway point. Get your teammates to do the same.
Have a bit of patience. They will come out. Especially if the numbers are anywhere close to even.

If you want to sit 3k up and  pick planes trying to get up, well don't expect me to fell sorry if the Ack gets ya.


The only way this is going to work long term, is if people lead by example, not by running their mouth.
Don't whine, complain, squeak and moan about HO's or collisions, teach by example.
You don't want to get ganged, then don't dive in on that 1 on 1. It will take time to get the majority educated.
But with a small group like this peer pressure works very very well.

You can't control what the other side does directly. However controlling what YOU do, will have an effect that will make itself felt over time. So if you fly with a bit of restraint, and patience, in time others will also.
Encourage your team mates to make the "right" choice. As you sow, so shall you reap.

Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: CptTrips on March 18, 2010, 08:49:17 AM
Just going on what happens at Furball Lake. The guy you just killed pops off the cliff 5k above where you killed him and just a few minutes flying time from where you are. If you're still in a fight, he'll be back on top of you before  you know it.

The fights do end up in the dirt; I really don't see a reason to give the guy you just killed an instant 5k advantage.

I'd rather have him take off at roughly the altitude the fight was at. He'll be able to climb some before he gets to you but he can't dive at VNE to get back above you in nothing flat.

Just my thoughts.



Well, lets not get into the whole "toolshed" thing Toad.  That only leads to what we already know we disagree on.  I think we are uncoverings some stuff we CAN agree on.

I wasn't even thinking about the high cliffs in the furball lake.  Maybe just a touch of alt would be nice, but it doesn't need to be those high cliffs.

And the distance is a relative thing.  Furball lake seems small in WWII but would be vast in WWI. I'd like to see the center point between the 3 fields about as far as the mid-point is now between the current field pairs.  Maybe a tad further since 3 teams are now in the mix.  But not too much further.


I think the 3 way tug-of-war spins the fights off into much more interesting patterns than a a straight line conveyor belt.  Add some clouds at 2-3k to play cat and mouse in and I think will will have added quite a bit more variety without adding any strat.


Have we found some common ground?

Regards,
Wab



Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: CptTrips on March 18, 2010, 08:54:11 AM
A note on icons.

You and I have always agreed on this.

If there was any change I'd suggest, maybe fade in the icons in transparency as they get closer.  Sometimes All I can see is a WALL of icon on the conveyor belt.  Some are close, many are far away.  By starting the icons near transparency and making them more opaque as they get closer, gives me an additional piece of information to use to prioritize my contacts.  You often can't read the ranges when they are all jumbled together.

Wab
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: CptTrips on March 18, 2010, 09:05:06 AM
You don't want someone to hide in the ack, don't fly clear over to their field.
Stop and orbit no more than 2k up at the halfway point. Get your teammates to do the same.


Ghosth,

I've seen occasions where we've circled until our fuel ran out.  Even numbers.  And they still wouldn't leave their base. 
I've seen occasions where people on my own side are telling everyone to fall back to the base ack and let them come for us.

Given the current conditions, its actually not a bad strategy.  Up close to your base, you can re-feed fighters back into the fights at a much greater speed.  The attacker has to fly all the way back.  At any point if you get in trouble, you just dive for the ack-o-deth.  Its stupid to try and follow them in.  You don't even have a slim chance.  You'd just be giving away a kill.  Eventually the low fuel and damaged have to retreat and then the base huggers can chase them down.

I say turn the tables on THEM!  The penalty for letting the enemy get too close to your base is that it runs the risk of getting temporarily flattened.  To protect your base, you have to push out and defend forward.  Keep the enemy at bay so your buddies can get up and back into the fight.  That gives both teams the motivation to at least meet in the middle.  It would remove the idea of "hey guys, lets fall back to the base ack and let them come to us!"

IMHO,
Wab


Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Krusty on March 18, 2010, 09:22:41 AM
Regarding Toad's comments about icons, check the dates folks. I tol'ya they were having these debates from day 1 of Aces High, and always the answer has been reliably proven that "no icons" is like flying legally blind-as-a-bat.

to this comment:

Just going on what happens at Furball Lake. The guy you just killed pops off the cliff 5k above where you killed him and just a few minutes flying time from where you are. If you're still in a fight, he'll be back on top of you before  you know it.

It was exactly that way in most HTH rooms. They had sea level maps with a single map tile jumping up 5k or something, and as soon as you were gear up you would dive screaming down on something at 400mph.

It was a totally dweebtastic thing to do, and led to THE MOST DWEEBY players you can ever imagine. Trust me, as one who suffered through that kind of crap for a long time, you're spot on the nose! It leads to nothing other than screwing over the guy who's survived the fight, and rewarding the guy who lost (and is now in a position to bounce you endlessly). On top of that, it makes getting OUT of a fight nearly impossible, as those hovering above you never let you get away. They want their revenge for dying to your guns.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: hitech on March 18, 2010, 09:34:57 AM
I may shorten the Icon range in WW1. Full time radar exist so enemy / friendly ID is not a problem. The only reason I would change is simply to clutter the screen. I was thinking about the 2K range.

HiTech
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Westy on March 18, 2010, 09:41:04 AM
"The penalty for letting the enemy get too close to your base is that it runs the risk of getting
temporarily flattened.  To protect your base, you have to push out and defend forward."

Ahhh.   Just like the WWII "main arenas" now!  

Sorry but <gack!> that is *exactly* why I stopped flying AH years ago, waited too many blue
moons in vain for CT but now relish and appreciate the new WWI set up. The Ma turned into
a "war winnuh's" sandbox. As soon as penalties are introduced to force a change in my
preference of play or provides others "incentives" to ruin it for me I'll be gone just as fast
again (and so will many others.) I'm not talking for them but the current testicle-free MA arenas
are testament to what I'm talking about. The MA's are romper room of light speed,  augernauts,
milk runners and fight-avoiders all trying to pummel inanimate pixels so they "Winn teH wAhr"


 Westy

Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Westy on March 18, 2010, 09:43:50 AM
"I was thinking about the 2K range."

Sweet! 

Hitech? At what range would the multi-gunner Zeppelin deathstars start
showing up? :)
Title: Another note on icons
Post by: Toad on March 18, 2010, 09:46:45 AM
In addition to making icons smaller by changing font size, there are options on what is displayed.

Just hold down ALT while cycling through options using the "I" key on your keyboard.

You can cycle through Normal Icon Mode, Plane Type Icon Mode, Friendly Only Icon Mode and Icons Off.

As usual, HT has provided numerous ways to play the game your own way without impacting the fun of other players.

Like no icon play? Turn yours off with ALT I.

Pretty simple really.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Toad on March 18, 2010, 09:50:12 AM

Have we found some common ground?

Regards,
Wab

Yes, I think so. FL distance wouldn't be as much of a factor with WW1 speeds.

I think capping arenas at about 60-75 might still be advised in that setup. 100 in FL lake size map would be pretty crowded. Something to experiment with there.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: SIK1 on March 18, 2010, 10:04:33 AM
For those of you feeling "horded" and run through the meat grinder. Might I suggest you try a "Dawn Patrol" some morning.

Normally 7-10 oclock sees anywhere from 14 - 24 people on. Fights are smaller, if you show restraint diving into a 1v1  eventually they may show you some. Do what I do, not what I say always works better than do what I say, not what I do.  :) 


Watch out though as the skill level tends to be quite high.


Ghosth when you say 7-10 o'clock are you talking your time? Which is central, or mountain?
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: sluggish on March 18, 2010, 10:06:21 AM
I may shorten the Icon range in WW1. Full time radar exist so enemy / friendly ID is not a problem. The only reason I would change is simply to clutter the screen. I was thinking about the 2K range.

HiTech

Dude!  Thanx for participating in the discussion!  I would also suggest reducing local vox range in WW1.  We're packing A LOT more planes into A LOT smaller spaces.  Many times we have people stepping all over each other just due to sheer numbers.  If these jokers want to talk to each other from across the map they can take a private vox channel.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Toad on March 18, 2010, 10:11:32 AM

I say turn the tables on THEM!  The penalty for letting the enemy get too close to your base is that it runs the risk of getting temporarily flattened.  To protect your base, you have to push out and defend forward.  Keep the enemy at bay so your buddies can get up and back into the fight.  That gives both teams the motivation to at least meet in the middle.  It would remove the idea of "hey guys, lets fall back to the base ack and let them come to us!"

IMHO,
Wab

And this is where we don't have common ground.  :)

Motivation.

Trying to devise game mechanisms to force players that don't relish the fight to get into the fight never really work IMO.

OTOH, there's no point in playing if all you do is fly around.

Imagine this Wab: What if no one pursues to the field? What if everyone stayed within a mile or two of the trench line on the map that divides the two "countries"?  Where would the fights be then? If all the action was over that middle trench line, how long would a player stay in the ack at his home field?

It's the old deal from early AH where you let the guy get up, get some alt and get some speed so he could have a reasonable chance at successfully engaging rather than getting slaughtered over and over again. In pursuit of score, that ethic has pretty much disappeared from AH. That ethic makes for better gameplay though.

To me, the 'cheese' for the mouse is the fight itself. If a particular mouse doesn't like 'cheese' you can try electric shocks to move him through the maze but now instead of joyfully going to something, he's just trying to avoid unpleasantness and will try other methods to avoid same. The latter doesn't make for much of a game; see the WW2 MA.

IMO.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: CptTrips on March 18, 2010, 10:21:22 AM
"The penalty for letting the enemy get too close to your base is that it runs the risk of getting
temporarily flattened.  To protect your base, you have to push out and defend forward."

Ahhh.   Just like the WWII "main arenas" now! 

Sorry but <gack!> that is *exactly* why I stopped flying AH years ago, waited too many blue
moons in vain for CT but now relish and appreciate the new WWI set up. The Ma turned into
a "war winnuh's" sandbox. As soon as penalties are introduced to force a change in my
preference of play or provides others "incentives" to ruin it for me I'll be gone just as fast
again. and so wi,l many others. Not talking for them but witness the testicle-free MA arenas
now. It's a romper room of light speed, augernauts, milkrunners and fight-avoiders all trying
to pummel inanimate pixels so they can "win the war"


 Westy


Westy,

I don't see how you can have "Win deh War" if you can't capture bases.   I'd say there is nothing more "testicle-free" and "fight-avoiding" than circling in impenetrable ack.

IMHO,
Wab
 
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Westy on March 18, 2010, 10:33:39 AM
 Cause in my memory of AH last was most base capturing being done with a
pork-horde that first neutered an undefended base with augernauts "piloting"
heavy fighters and then finishing the facilities off with dive bombing Lancasters.

 Inpenetrable ack intended to do "something" will be circumnavigated somehow
by some rat who, given the new tools and penalties to "drive" game play in a
certain way,  will work incessantly to "game' his way around the "system"

 Like cock roaches,  these types of players, who want to disrupt the game play
of others or purposefully avoid player-to-player interaction. *will* find a way to
do it.  When that happens (just like the WW2 arenas with combat avoiding,
pork-n-run augernauts and dive bombing heavies) it'll be like a dinner bell
calling all the other winnuhs to the arena.  

 Don't get me wrong. I would love to take on bombers, straffe trenches or
pop barrage balloons. I loved Red Baron in it's day and the whole concept of
what HiTech's CT was supposed to be. But I love dog fighting most and any
kind of penalty that prevents that (imo) just plain sucks.  Give someone points
or a reward of some kindfor doing something like bombing a railyard in an
active combat area. Just don't let their actions penalize anyone else's
enjoyment at all though.
 
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: PFactorDave on March 18, 2010, 10:38:47 AM


I don't see how you can have "Win deh War" if you can't capture bases.   I'd say there is nothing more "testicle-free" and "fight-avoiding" than circling in impenetrable ack.


 


Except perhaps vulching defenseless planes as they try to take off...  Which seems to be the end result of what you are asking for Wab.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: CptTrips on March 18, 2010, 10:43:18 AM
Imagine this Wab: What if no one pursues to the field? What if everyone stayed within a mile or two of the trench line on the map that divides the two "countries"?  Where would the fights be then? If all the action was over that middle trench line, how long would a player stay in the ack at his home field?

It's the old deal from early AH where you let the guy get up, get some alt and get some speed so he could have a reasonable chance at successfully engaging rather than getting slaughtered over and over again. In pursuit of score, that ethic has pretty much disappeared from AH. That ethic makes for better gameplay though.


I would prefer the fight out in the middle instead of having to fly all the way to their base.  However, I've seen cases where the other team refuses to leave their field ack and come to the middle, even with even numbers.

In those situations, all I'm asking for is the ability to go get them.  If I have to fly all the way to their field, I want the ability the level the damn thing into dust in punishment for making me have to fly so far.  :furious

:lol,
Wab
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: CptTrips on March 18, 2010, 10:47:10 AM
Except perhaps vulching defenseless planes as they try to take off...  Which seems to be the end result of what you are asking for Wab.

But of course all they have to do to stop that is meet me at the halfway point and kill me before I can get to their base.  Simple enough.

:salute,
Wab

Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Yeager on March 18, 2010, 10:51:55 AM
Nah, Ive seen times when the reds held the high ground too near the green base to make it worth taking off.  As soon as the greens get out of the ack safety net they get pounced on by 3:1 odds.  At least having that space directly over the field to grab altitude safely gives the greens some sanctuary to enter a fight on equal or favorable terms since the reds tend to fly back towards the middle area once they see a fight coming their way. 
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: CptTrips on March 18, 2010, 10:57:44 AM
Nah, Ive seen times when the reds held the high ground too near the green base to make it worth taking off.  As soon as the greens get out of the ack safety net they get pounced on by 3:1 odds.  At least having that space directly over the field to grab altitude safely gives the greens some sanctuary to enter a fight on equal or favorable terms since the reds tend to fly back towards the middle area once they see a fight coming their way.  

OK, well, we can't agree on everything.  :)

But I'm not seeing too many objections to:

3 field DA-Furball-Lake type configuration (not necessarily on high cliffs),

reasonably spaced so all three teams can mix it up in the same airspace,

Puffy white clouds around 2-3k to play cat and mouse in.

Maybe some kind of icon tweaks.

I'll take what I can get  :D,
Wab







Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Toad on March 18, 2010, 10:59:18 AM

I'd say there is nothing more "testicle-free" and "fight-avoiding" than circling in impenetrable ack.

IMHO,
Wab


I'd say there is nothing more boring for the player doing it than circling in impenetrable ack. Eventually they come out and fight or land/log.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Toad on March 18, 2010, 11:00:49 AM
But of course all they have to do to stop that is meet me at the halfway point and kill me before I can get to their base.  Simple enough.

:salute,
Wab



All YOU have to do is stop and wait at the halfway point and they most likely come out there and try to do so. Simple enough.

 :)
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Toad on March 18, 2010, 11:02:57 AM
OK, well, we can't agree on everything.  :)

But I'm not seeing too many objections to:

3 field DA-Furball-Lake type configuration (not necessarily on high cliffs),

reasonably spaced so all three teams can mix it up in the same airspace,

Puffy white clouds around 2-3k to play cat and mouse in.

I'll take what I can get  :D,
Wab


Certainly worth a shot in one of the WW1 arenas. Not a lake though; rolling terrain, trees, buildings, rivers, bridges to fly under (remember The Blue Max?).
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: CptTrips on March 18, 2010, 11:04:29 AM
Certainly worth a shot in one of the WW1 arenas. Not a lake though; rolling terrain, trees, buildings, rivers, bridges to fly under (remember The Blue Max?).

Fully agree. I hate the water at FB lake.  Often too hard to tell where the surface is.  Don't ask me how I know that.  :O

Wab
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Yeager on March 18, 2010, 11:07:21 AM
3 field DA-Furball-Lake type configuration (not necessarily on high cliffs),
====
Personally I prefer the option of starting a fight from more than one field.  Sometimes I like upping  alone from one of the unused fields and heading over to another red unused field and seeing what sort of reaction I can get from the reds.  Having a DA style feel to WW1 is NOT what I want to see happen in the ww1 arenas.

reasonably spaced so all three teams can mix it up in the same airspace,
====
I think we already have this....I dunno

Puffy white clouds around 2-3k to play cat and mouse in.
====
I prefer the bright clear days and far as Im concerned HT could freeze the sun at high noon forever.
some puffy clouds would be fine though.

I'll take what I can get
====
Always take what you can get
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: CptTrips on March 18, 2010, 11:16:57 AM
Personally I prefer the option of starting a fight from more than one field.  Sometimes I like upping  alone from one of the unused fields and heading over to another red unused field and seeing what sort of reaction I can get from the reds. 

I agree with that.  In an earlier post I suggested have several of these 3 field clusters scattered on a single map.  Spaced far enough apart that they don't cross over, but the map is small enough you can look at all the clusters simultaneously to see where you want to go.  You could just move over to one of the low populated field cluster and see if someone will join you. 

I personally don't see all three teams mixing it up in the main fights.  No-mans-land seems a bit too far to pull the fight there.  Its seems to me to be almost purely a series of 2 sided wars. YMMV.


Wab
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: CptTrips on March 18, 2010, 11:22:46 AM
I prefer the bright clear days and far as Im concerned HT could freeze the sun at high noon forever.
some puffy clouds would be fine though.

Agreed.  Sunny, clear, summer day, high noon, puffy white cotton cumulus clouds.

Its seems I'm forever flying into that freakin sunset!!!!!!

I need shades. :cool:

Wab
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Kirin on March 18, 2010, 11:38:18 AM
Quote
It's the old deal from early AH where you let the guy get up, get some alt and get some speed so he could have a reasonable chance at successfully engaging rather than getting slaughtered over and over again. In pursuit of score, that ethic has pretty much disappeared from AH. That ethic makes for better gameplay though.

Ahhhh - the nostalgia...  as far as I remember hoarding, porking and ack-hugging has been always a part of AH - as it is part of human nature. The old days weren't always better.

As for the WW1 roadmap. Keep it pure dogfighting. Pour in some more static targets like ballons just for the fun of it. Actually a nice touch would be infantry as 'semi-mobile' soft ack. Easy to take out - but enough of an annoyance to not be ignored. That way you could 'channel' fights in the direction you liked or give you some protection trying to limp home.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Ghosth on March 18, 2010, 12:20:49 PM
I'm on central time, this morning waited until 10 for my morning run, found 24 on, and a couple of good fights.

Only 2 knights on, so most of the action was Bish/rook.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Ghosth on March 18, 2010, 12:22:43 PM
Ohhh and 2k or 2.5k icons would be awesome, as slow as the WWI planes are thats plenty.

Another consideration would be to just put the small country icon. No exact range, just the - or + to tell you if he's closing or not.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Ack-Ack on March 18, 2010, 12:31:21 PM
I'd say there is nothing more boring for the player doing it than circling in impenetrable ack. Eventually they come out and fight or land/log.


Last night, only had time for a few sorties and unfortunately wasted one of those sorties fighting against a player that would fly along the fringe of his base ack cover.  He'd engage and immediately after merge, pull a hard 180 turn back towards his ack cover and try and drag you into it so the ack would do what he was incapable of doing. 


ack-ack
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Toad on March 18, 2010, 12:35:42 PM
Lessee, after seeing that the first time you had two choices, right?

Keep trying to kill him

or

fly a couple miles away and join the fur, leaving him to pump his control stick in isolation and boredom?

 :)

Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: TMAW on March 18, 2010, 04:40:27 PM

MAP
I would agree with using a 3 base map on a terrain similar to ndisles center island, though not as large and no GV bases. The terrain would funnel everyone towards the center. Whether it would constantly result in a massive furball, or a few smaller ones, who knows?

ICONS
We could use the icon set as we have now, or have it configurable similar to the ALT + I we have now, with ALT + SHIFT + I,  to cycle through different icon set ups. For example; country and distance, plane type and distance, distance only, or some other set-up.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Ack-Ack on March 18, 2010, 04:48:25 PM
Lessee, after seeing that the first time you had two choices, right?

Keep trying to kill him

or

fly a couple miles away and join the fur, leaving him to pump his control stick in isolation and boredom?

 :)



When I he did it, I just turned 90 degrees to the right and stayed outside the ack ring and positioned myself to cut him off he tried it again.  But that's really not the point, as I said over open channel in game, you can remove the tool from the MA but you can't remove the MA from the tool.


ack-ack
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Miska on March 18, 2010, 10:45:09 PM
Toad, thanks very much for the suggestion. I reduced the icons to size 10 and made the enemy icons forrest green and the friendly a kind of turquoise.  Fantastic result.  The icons are still there to supplement the Mk1 Eyeball system, but you have to take a second to inspect a view, and you have to look carefully if you want plane type and distance information.  It is very difficult to keep track of more than a couple of cons at once.  Excellent compromise.

Here is another historical flying AAR.

Took off on test flight to evaluate F2b high altitude performance.  At 17k over center of front area, encountered enemy triplane hi 12.  Chased him up to 18k over the course of 20 minutes.  When over an enemy field,  he suddenly turned, overflew, and dived on my tail but went too low.  He climbed up to fire but missed, ended up inverted at stall speed and had to roll away.  I turned on his tail and began to chase.  He dived in a corkscrew several times and I dived with him, chasing him to 10k, but never had an opportunity to fire.  Broke off chase at 9k.  Enemy was observed diving vertically toward his field.  Several enemy aircraft present around 2-4k.  Headed back to the front and resumed patrol.

That was my best flight so far :)
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Toad on March 18, 2010, 11:25:50 PM
Now we just need to get HT to model hypoxia.   :devil
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: USRanger on March 18, 2010, 11:52:47 PM
OK, well, we can't agree on everything.  :)

But I'm not seeing too many objections to:

3 field DA-Furball-Lake type configuration (not necessarily on high cliffs),

reasonably spaced so all three teams can mix it up in the same airspace,

Puffy white clouds around 2-3k to play cat and mouse in.

Maybe some kind of icon tweaks.

I'll take what I can get  :D,
Wab









I could have a terrain like this ready for submission within days with an approval from HTC that they would even check it out it & consider another WW1 terrain.  I have some great WW1 looking ground textures to use too. ;)
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: IronDog on March 19, 2010, 08:57:43 AM
It's going to be hard to turn a trench warfare game into something that tool shedders are going to like.Strafing trenches,artillery positions,killing a few barrage ballons,is about the extent of it.I find the fur balling a lot of fun.and that's what the game should be about.My Dad had a AAA battery next to his artillery unit,and he said they shot a lot during the day,and he never seen them ever hit a thing!The WW I arenas need to be left alone.This is a furballers heaven.
ID
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Oldman731 on March 19, 2010, 08:58:16 AM
Now we just need to get HT to model hypoxia.   :devil

I've come across quite a few players who are pretty good at simulating it.

- oldman
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: SIK1 on March 19, 2010, 09:14:18 AM
I've come across quite a few players who are pretty good at simulating it.

- oldman
:rofl  :aok
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Miska on March 19, 2010, 10:14:57 PM
I love the new icon ranges.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Ghosth on March 19, 2010, 10:47:22 PM
Great so far, looking to see how it effects things.
But I'm happy with it.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: NoBaddy on March 20, 2010, 04:42:05 AM
I love the new icon ranges.

Dint really notice.

Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Sunka on March 20, 2010, 06:10:55 AM
I may shorten the Icon range in WW1. Full time radar exist so enemy / friendly ID is not a problem. The only reason I would change is simply to clutter the screen. I was thinking about the 2K range.

HiTech
:aok
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Miska on March 20, 2010, 04:00:50 PM
Has patch 4 reduced gun lethality?  I'd argue that it shouldn't be a problem for bullets to hurt the planes and pilots.  The problem should be getting the bullets into the planes and pilots.  One or two well placed bullets should do the trick.  The trick should be to place them well.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: kvuo75 on March 20, 2010, 11:38:04 PM
Has patch 4 reduced gun lethality?  I'd argue that it shouldn't be a problem for bullets to hurt the planes and pilots.  The problem should be getting the bullets into the planes and pilots.  One or two well placed bullets should do the trick.  The trick should be to place them well.

Quote
Version 2.18
======================

WW1 air combat comes to Aces High with the introduction of four new WW1 planes and the WW1 Dogfight Arena.  The new arena is designed for pure unadulterated WW1 dogfighting with no strat or capture.

These new WW1 planes use fixed pitch propellers instead of the constant speed propellers found on all the other planes in Aces High.  Because they can't adjust their pitch, the engine RPM will speed up and slow down according to your airspeed and throttle setting.  This makes it very easy to overspeed your engine in a full power dive.  You will know when you are overspeeding your engine because your tachometer will be in the red and your engine will begin to make a bad sound.  Immediately reduce your throttle and/or airspeed to keep from blowing your engine.  Alternatively, there is an option in your flight preferences for a WW1 Engine Governor.  This will limit your engine to its nominal rating and prevent you from overspeeding it in most conditions.  The advantage to not using the governor is that you can run your RPM higher than the governor giving you more power in high rpm situations.  The governor is defaulted to on.

The Dr.I and the F.1 Camel both use rotary engines.  The large spinning mass of these engines makes gyroscopic precession a large factor in how these planes fly.  With the clockwise rotating engines of these planes, a pitch up movement will create a yaw to the right, a pitch down movement will create a yaw to the left, a yaw to the left will create a pitch down and a yaw to the right will create a pitch up.  Throttle control for these planes will just cut out cylinders from the firing sequence so it will work in steps instead of giving you smooth control through the entire range.

Fields in the WW1 arena are heavily defended by AAA.  It has a max range of 5000 feet and you want to be turning around as soon as it opens up on you.  Don't even try to go into it. 

Ditches score as kills for your opponent in the WW1 arena.

The most efficient gunnery tactic is to target the pilot.  The bullets do penetrate so the cockpit shot will work from most angles as there is little on these planes to completely stop a bullet aside from the engine.  A single head shot will end the fight, body shots will take 2 or more depending on how cleanly they've come through the airframe.

Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: hitech on March 22, 2010, 11:58:23 AM
Has patch 4 reduced gun lethality?  I'd argue that it shouldn't be a problem for bullets to hurt the planes and pilots.  The problem should be getting the bullets into the planes and pilots.  One or two well placed bullets should do the trick.  The trick should be to place them well.

Lethality was not changed.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Miska on March 22, 2010, 07:44:45 PM
Thanks.  I just had the impression that planes were more survivable since patch 4.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: BnZs on March 25, 2010, 03:39:42 PM
Erm, I would just like to point out that most of the time I pop in, the WWI arena has more people in it than Early, Mid, and AvA combined, and usually equal/higher numbers than furball lake. And this is in an arena which currently only features furballing with four planes. I imagine WWI will attract at least a few more customers to AHII as well, once they begin to advertise it.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Biggles on March 26, 2010, 12:21:28 PM
By george this guy's got an idea!

A few notes. It would be nice if the flag locations appeared on the map, color-coded, perhaps as small dots:

blue = up for grabs, no country has won this flag
green = your country has already won this flag
red = the enemy has won this flag

This would help avoid flying to a flag location only to discover it has already been won by whatever side. Also, as more flags become unavailable the battle naturally gets focused on the areas where unclaimed flags reside.

Just a few more ideas to kick around

Biggles2
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Yeager on March 26, 2010, 12:26:57 PM
Why limit outsleves to silly games? Lets take it to the next level: Hopscotch! :neener:

http://www.gameskidsplay.net/GAMES/other_games/hopscotch.htm
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Biggles on March 26, 2010, 01:12:58 PM
Why limit outsleves to silly games? Lets take it to the next level: Hopscotch! :neener:

http://www.gameskidsplay.net/GAMES/other_games/hopscotch.htm

That's brilliant, Yeager!  :old:
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: Toad on March 26, 2010, 04:11:01 PM
Cherry powerups over the flags would be a nice touch. They could make you invisible or invincible for 2-5 minutes. They need that neat cha-ching Mario Bro sound when you fly through them too.
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: IrishOne on March 27, 2010, 09:19:44 AM
the DR1 needs RATO, a MK108, and sidewinders.  then i wouldn't have to get so mad and mom would let me play more.   :bolt:
Title: Re: Where's WWI going from here?
Post by: CptTrips on March 27, 2010, 08:03:34 PM
WHoooot!  Whoooot!

If you have netflix, you can watch this on instant download. 

Exactly what I intend to do right now!!!!

http://www.netflix.com/WiMovie/The_Great_Waldo_Pepper/560263?trkid=1359311

Wab