General Forums => Open Beta Test => Topic started by: Dobs on September 12, 2016, 09:48:39 AM
Title: Wish list
Post by: Dobs on September 12, 2016, 09:48:39 AM
Option to suppress control mode messages.
When you have ENY....red out planes not available due to ENY limits...if that is not possible, message when you enter Hanger to inform you of ENY limits.
Wingtip vortices effect--forgive the cross post of games....but this was under work but never implemented..and was to come on at >5Gs...gives an indication of G being pulled (besides looking cool!).
Take a look at Real world picture....attachment below.
Drag on 38L Dive recovery flaps. Presently they just extend your compressability speed with no resulting drag.
Maneuver flap on 38s--J and L--8 degrees?
Title: Re: Wish list
Post by: lunatic1 on September 12, 2016, 10:15:22 AM
I get indication of pulling g-forces when I start blacking or reding out. oh there is a wish list in the forums
Title: Re: Wish list
Post by: Lazerr on September 12, 2016, 10:37:29 AM
I like it Dobs!
Title: Re: Wish list
Post by: Dobs on September 12, 2016, 10:47:47 AM
i see you're using same view system I am :) 2 control sets for 90 i 45 angle :D
You know it:) Been that way forever and ever amen. Have a Track IR sitting on my desktop, but between having to don a hat to have tracking sensor, and then feeling like I have parkinsons when I'm dogfighting, I found I didn't like it. I did like it for "sight seeing"....:)
Title: Re: Wish list
Post by: popeye on September 13, 2016, 09:41:13 AM
+1 Option to suppress control mode messages.
Also using "modes" for two view sets, and have just started trying TIR. I'm coming to the same conclusion -- it's nice for sight seeing, but not for dogfighting. Although, I it does seem useful for de-acking, allowing easy survey of the field when the view is zoomed. And, it gives me an excuse to wear my, "Wings Over Houston AW Con 1995" hat. :D
Title: Re: Wish list
Post by: FLS on September 13, 2016, 09:57:00 AM
Also using "modes" for two view sets, and have just started trying TIR. I'm coming to the same conclusion -- it's nice for sight seeing, but not for dogfighting. Although, I it does seem useful for de-acking, allowing easy survey of the field when the view is zoomed. And, it gives me an excuse to wear my, "Wings Over Houston AW Con 1995" hat. :D
What do you use for the straight up view? If you assign a "view up" button you can use it to modify your hat views to look up as well as looking straight up with it. TIR works well for dogfighting when it's set up correctly but it takes time to get used to it.
Title: Re: Wish list
Post by: Dobs on September 13, 2016, 12:51:11 PM
FLS--
Essentially when you use two control modes, all the programming is the same EXCEPT views.
In level views, you have all levels PLUS 45 up. In high views, all views and Forward is STRAIGHT UP view.
All it does is enable you to free that finger for HOTAS...as it it just a toggle away from view change.
Being able to separate the Orange messages (System) from the Yellow (HOST) would solve the problem as well. Or a disable option for Control mode.
Title: Re: Wish list
Post by: fd ski on September 13, 2016, 02:15:27 PM
and old farts come out of the wood work one by one ;)
Title: Re: Wish list
Post by: Skuzzy on September 13, 2016, 02:39:09 PM
Essentially when you use two control modes, all the programming is the same EXCEPT views.
In level views, you have all levels PLUS 45 up. In high views, all views and Forward is STRAIGHT UP view.
All it does is enable you to free that finger for HOTAS...as it it just a toggle away from view change.
Being able to separate the Orange messages (System) from the Yellow (HOST) would solve the problem as well. Or a disable option for Control mode.
Maybe I am not reading this correctly, but you can redirect messages to another tab in the comm buffer.
Move your mouse cursor over the text buffer and when the frame is displayed, right-click on the menu bar to create new tabs and edit what is directed there. You can also just turn off messages being sent to any tab. Is that what you mean?
Title: Re: Wish list
Post by: LCADolby on September 13, 2016, 02:43:21 PM
Is there a way to move all messages from the pop up box into the text buffer? "You don't have enough perks" and "ENY" pop ups in particular.
Title: Re: Wish list
Post by: Randy1 on September 13, 2016, 02:59:42 PM
. . . Take a look at Real world picture....attachment below.
Drag on 38L Dive recovery flaps. Presently they just extend your compressability speed with no resulting drag.
Maneuver flap on 38s--J and L--8 degrees?
Not sure if this was meant for your wish but; There is no way to measure drag in AH at the speeds in a dive that make the flap drag a significant contributor. If it can be modeled, it is modeled best I can tell. An example the door open on the c47 slows it down. Few people would even look but they modeled it.
Yes the first notch of flaps in AH's P-38 represents 8 degrees of flap. It is the point the extension railing hits a stop. Anything after that, the flap no longer extends but does pitch down like a trailing edge hinged flap.
Title: Re: Wish list
Post by: popeye on September 13, 2016, 04:12:21 PM
Skuzzy,
Not sure about others, but moving System messages to another tab doesn't help. I want to see some System messages -- field captures, kills, icon setting, etc. -- but the "mode" messages are filling the buffer and they aren't useful (to me). Since I use mode switching to add views to the hat, I'm changing modes 10 times a minute when close to enemies -- much more in a dogfight.
If the "mode" messages were tagged as "Help" (or something) instead of "System" I could turn them off without losing anything I need to see.
I certainly can live with a buffer full of "mode", just adding my +1 to the wish.
Title: Re: Wish list
Post by: Dobs on September 14, 2016, 02:48:29 PM
Not sure if this was meant for your wish but; There is no way to measure drag in AH at the speeds in a dive that make the flap drag a significant contributor. If it can be modeled, it is modeled best I can tell. An example the door open on the c47 slows it down. Few people would even look but they modeled it.
Yes the first notch of flaps in AH's P-38 represents 8 degrees of flap. It is the point the extension railing hits a stop. Anything after that, the flap no longer extends but does pitch down like a trailing edge hinged flap.
So here is a picture of "dive recovery flaps": (http://migrate.legendsintheirowntime.com/LiTOT/Content/1944/P38_Av_4408_DA_flap_p127_W.png)
Right now, in game, sticking 8" of metal into the slipstream adds no drag. Us new guys joke on takeoff--"check dive recovery flaps on" when we take a 38L heavy for some JABO missions. Because it doesn't hurt your performance, it only increases the speed at which you compress.
As far as Maneuver flap settings go--seems to me first notch doesn't do much, but adding more flaps does...I get more lift with not very much associated drag. 51, 47, and 38 all had a "slap down" maneuver flap setting for combat purposes. Everybody else had to hold the lever until desired drag was obtained and then reset it to stop. Don't really care about that very much....but there was a reason for the maneuver flaps on the 38...the WWIIaircraft perfomance website states: "c. The P-38G turns much better than the P-38F (will close 180° in 360° circle) due to maneuver flaps." Pretty substantial turn increase...
Title: Re: Wish list
Post by: FLS on September 14, 2016, 03:20:01 PM
The dive flap did not add noticeable drag according to Lockheed. I forget if it's in the pilot handbook or hanger flying notes.
The "combat" flap setting in some fighters like the P-51 is the first notch of flaps. The "maneuver" flap setting in the P-38 is halfway out which looks to be 3 notches of flaps in Aces High. The actual flap control could set any degree of flaps but that's not modeled.
Title: Re: Wish list
Post by: Randy1 on September 14, 2016, 04:13:40 PM
The dive flap did not add noticeable drag according to Lockheed. I forget if it's in the pilot handbook or hanger flying notes.
The "combat" flap setting in some fighters like the P-51 is the first notch of flaps. The "maneuver" flap setting in the P-38 is halfway out which looks to be 3 notches of flaps in Aces High. The actual flap control could set any degree of flaps but that's not modeled.
Fls is right on the first part about drag but wrong on the maneuvering flap setting..
It is the first notch in AH which is 8 degrees of flaps per HiTech form a post some years back. The eight degrees comes at about 50% of the extension mechanism travel. At this point the Fowler flaps are at full extension and have hit the guide stop. Any further extension of the flap mechanism turns the flap down greatly increasing the drag. The 8 degrees gives the most efficient lift increase. As they say, most bang for your buck.
That is not to say anything after the first notch is all bad. The slower you go the less drag comes into play. A good way to look at drag is drag is proportional to the square of the velocity all other things being equal. That is one reason your car gets worse gas mileage the faster you go in a big way.
Title: Re: Wish list
Post by: FLS on September 14, 2016, 04:17:45 PM
Fls is right on the first part about drag but wrong on the maneuvering flap setting..
Let's not lose sight of the difference between disagreeing with you and being wrong. :D
You haven't posted anything that shows the 50% maneuver setting is 8 degrees of flaps. I think the common usage of "half flaps" is accurate.
Title: Re: Wish list
Post by: Dobs on September 14, 2016, 05:11:02 PM
Well I can't see dropping 50% flaps in any aircraft as being a "maneuver setting"...as far as combat and maneuver flaps go...now you are just splitting hairs.
Just confused on why you wouldn't think slamming a piece of steel into the windstream would not cause drag?
Attached is a schematic from NATIONAL ADVISORY COMMITEE FOR AERONAUTICS ORIGINALLY ISSUED April 1943 as Memorandum Report 3F12 WIND-TUNNEL INVESTIGATION OF DEVICES FOR IMPROVING THE DIVING CHARACTERISTICS OF AIRPLANZS By Albert L. Erickson
Title: Re: Wish list
Post by: FLS on September 14, 2016, 05:26:51 PM
There is a wind tunnel test online, I don't have the link handy, of Fowler Flap testing on a P-38 wing model that finds the highest CLmax at 30 degrees flap extension.
The flap control "Maneuver" position was in the middle of the range of movement.
In Aces High the 3rd notch of flaps in the P38 has the handle in the middle and gives the highest CLmax.
Title: Re: Wish list
Post by: Ack-Ack on September 14, 2016, 06:23:30 PM
Right now, in game, sticking 8" of metal into the slipstream adds no drag. Us new guys joke on takeoff--"check dive recovery flaps on" when we take a 38L heavy for some JABO missions. Because it doesn't hurt your performance, it only increases the speed at which you compress.
We've determined in another post that the lack of drag when the dive flaps are deployed are either a bug or intentional (possibly due to lack of data). This topic has been debated throughout the years and never have we received any answer as to whether it's a bug or not.
Ignore the mudslinging posts in the linked thread, the other posts have the details. In short, there should be some type of drag modeled, how much though is what is up for debate.
Title: Re: Wish list
Post by: FLS on September 14, 2016, 06:39:21 PM
The dive flaps work properly when they are needed. There is conflicting information on how they should work when they aren't needed.
Title: Re: Wish list
Post by: katanaso on September 14, 2016, 07:57:20 PM
In Aces High the 3rd notch of flaps in the P38 has the handle in the middle and gives the highest CLmax.
Randy1, and any other guys in the 38:
This is key to note for our game. Fly the 38 with this, and you'll find it turns like you want it to. 1 notch of flaps, like in the 51, does not have the same effect in the 38.
Title: Re: Wish list
Post by: Dobs on September 14, 2016, 11:39:25 PM
Just so everyone is clear on a maneuvering/combat flap setting on flaps....it is a "slap down" setting--one movement required-- to get a preset degree of flaps. It doesn't matter where it "physically stops", it commands XX degrees of flaps. The difference in that and regular flap deployment is having to hold the flap lever in the open position to get a flap setting. With a combat/maneuver setting you pull it to the detent and you are done.
Title: Re: Wish list
Post by: FLS on September 15, 2016, 12:42:38 AM
Just so everyone is clear on a maneuvering/combat flap setting on flaps....it is a "slap down" setting--one movement required-- to get a preset degree of flaps. It doesn't matter where it "physically stops", it commands XX degrees of flaps. The difference in that and regular flap deployment is having to hold the flap lever in the open position to get a flap setting. With a combat/maneuver setting you pull it to the detent and you are done.
Agreed. I think we're sacrificing that piece of realism for the sake of simplifying it across all plane platforms.
Title: Re: Wish list
Post by: Dobs on September 15, 2016, 09:21:59 AM
Also using "modes" for two view sets, and have just started trying TIR. I'm coming to the same conclusion -- it's nice for sight seeing, but not for dogfighting. Although, I it does seem useful for de-acking, allowing easy survey of the field when the view is zoomed. And, it gives me an excuse to wear my, "Wings Over Houston AW Con 1995" hat. :D
Done, for next patch.
Title: Re: Wish list
Post by: LCADolby on September 15, 2016, 02:21:36 PM
Dobs and P38s... please for the love, don try and get the P38 WarBirds Flight Model in here. A Zeke with K4 climb. :rofl
Title: Re: Wish list
Post by: fd ski on September 15, 2016, 02:25:32 PM
Title: Re: Wish list
Post by: Randy1 on September 15, 2016, 03:34:28 PM
And old post.
Quote
Gentlemen, you are assuming facts that do not happen in AH.
We simply put the degrees and coefficients in for each flap stop.
So what degree is displayed may or may not match what the real plane displays for degrees for the same coefficients. For instance the first stop of the p38 may be displaying 10 degrees, but really be the 8 deg coefficients.
The only thing degrees really do is control the rate at which the flaps move. We put in a degree per sec rate, and then each flap stops degrees.
HiTech
8 degrees is the maneuver flap setting. Keep in mind Fowler flaps extend as the drop. Again when the guide hits the stop the extension ends and therefore any further extension of the flaps goes into turning the flap down.
Title: Re: Wish list
Post by: Dobs on September 15, 2016, 03:52:26 PM
Now Dolby, just because your 109 wasn't the uber ride it is here in WBs..don't get your knickers in a bunch:)
I don't know, that 109E7 in WB was so uber it had me being called a cheat within about 30 seconds of me getting it off the ground and into a fight. :ahand
Title: Re: Wish list
Post by: FLS on September 15, 2016, 05:27:21 PM
And old post. 8 degrees is the maneuver flap setting. Keep in mind Fowler flaps extend as the drop. Again when the guide hits the stop the extension ends and therefore any further extension of the flaps goes into turning the flap down.
HiTech's quote states that the first notch of flaps on the P-38 is 8 degrees deflection. Nobody disputes that. You have no support for your theory that this is the maneuver setting.
Title: Re: Wish list
Post by: Condor on September 15, 2016, 11:29:17 PM
Low flying aircraft are much too loud. If there are any near GVs we can't hear sounds of other GVs at all. It may be realistic but other concessions are made to realism for the sake of game play.
Title: Re: Wish list
Post by: Dobs on September 16, 2016, 08:46:14 AM
Option to mute GV or aircraft comm depending on what you are in.....there are times when I'm hearing the ground guys and am in the middle of a intense air battle, and I'm sure they get tired of hearing the guys in the air stepping on them when they are in the middle of an intense battle......so an option to mute JUST the ground or mute JUST the air comm would be nice.
Maybe make it so you can tune "Range ground", "Range air" or "Range-all". Most of the time it is fine, but there are times when I know I'm stepping on chatter to get a break call out, and makes it difficult.
Title: Re: Wish list
Post by: Dobs on September 16, 2016, 08:47:29 AM
I don't know, that 109E7 in WB was so uber it had me being called a cheat within about 30 seconds of me getting it off the ground and into a fight. :ahand
It was the 109E4AA--and a good pilot in it (since it suffered from lack of induced drag) wreaked havoc:)
Title: Re: Wish list
Post by: Randy1 on September 16, 2016, 11:39:53 AM
HiTech's quote states that the first notch of flaps on the P-38 is 8 degrees deflection. Nobody disputes that. You have no support for your theory that this is the maneuver setting.
Do a search fls. It is easy to find in google books. Keep in mind that 50% travel on the flap drive should be close to 8 degrees flaps.
Title: Re: Wish list
Post by: FLS on September 16, 2016, 04:11:43 PM
Do a search fls. It is easy to find in google books. Keep in mind that 50% travel on the flap drive should be close to 8 degrees flaps.
If you look at the flap you'll see that the third notch of flaps puts the flaps halfway out. The pilot notes don't refer to the internal guide track, they simply tell the pilot how far out the flaps are in the maneuver position. If you look at wind tunnel testing for Fowler flaps you find the highest CLmax at 30 degrees deflection. If the first notch is 8, the second looks around 20, what would the third notch of five positions likely be? The pilot notes state that the first half of flap extension mostly increases lift, lift would increase to CLmax which is at 30 degrees, past that you would get more drag than lift. This is exactly what happens in Aces High.
I did search, that's why I think it's 30 degrees halfway out.