General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: FESS67 on September 20, 2016, 01:20:02 AM
Title: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: FESS67 on September 20, 2016, 01:20:02 AM
I am seeing this a fair bit and it is not unique to the player in the clip. It seems that when a player performs some of the more aggressive defensive moves the game cannot keep up somehow and so produces a wild spinning / flipping motion. I do not remember seeing this in AH2 and I do not believe it is lag as it is only evident during defensive moves, I never see it any other time.
Would be nice to get this under control as it makes tracking the defender very difficult. Another player who exhibited this behaviour was under full control of his plane and shot me as I went past even though my end was showing him do this sort of thing.
<edit> flipping is around the 20 second mark
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Chalenge on September 20, 2016, 01:41:49 AM
I have noticed that inside of 200 yards somewhere the position of any plane may not be cleanly defined. It just isn't smooth.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: nrshida on September 20, 2016, 02:17:25 AM
I am seeing this a fair bit and it is not unique to the player in the clip. It seems that when a player performs some of the more aggressive defensive moves the game cannot keep up somehow and so produces a wild spinning / flipping motion. I do not remember seeing this in AH2 and I do not believe it is lag as it is only evident during defensive moves, I never see it any other time.
Perfectly legitamate defensive manoeuvres with no more lag than with anything else. He's snap rolling to compensate for a poor roll rate is all.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: FLOOB on September 20, 2016, 02:57:14 AM
He's ManeTMP'ing. Used to see a particular typhoon pilot do this back in AH1 days. It's akin to stick stiring, basically the internet can't keep up with his drastic control changes and so on the observer's end the plane would appear to be flip-flopping around, changing directions instantly etc.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: FLOOB on September 20, 2016, 03:03:19 AM
Perfectly legitamate defensive manoeuvres with no more lag than with anything else. He's snap rolling to compensate for a poor roll rate is all.
If you watch the film closer you'll see that's not what's happening. There's a point where the plane instantly warps into a different position, this particular player might not be inducing it on purpose.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: FESS67 on September 20, 2016, 03:18:08 AM
Please note: In my original post I stated that it was not unique to this player. It is a 'feature' of the game at the moment. There is no suggestion at all that the player is attempting to do anything but fly.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: FESS67 on September 20, 2016, 03:19:02 AM
If you watch the film closer you'll see that's not what's happening. There's a point where the plane instantly warps into a different position, this particular player might not be inducing it on purpose.
Just looks like micro warps on top of extreme manouevring, didn't affect the attack that much. Should get on EAce's six in a 190, then you'll see a real show. I like what he did at 32 seconds. Looks pretty cool.
Are you sure you are living on a planet with the same laws of physics as Earth?
My real flying experience is lmited I just know within AH extraordinary things are possible. I use a lot of these kind of moves. What are you requesting, that such manoeuvres be prevented for your convenience? That's not the name of the game.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: FESS67 on September 20, 2016, 03:38:46 AM
No nrshida. I am suggesting that there may be something amiss with the way things are presented in game outside of what we may expect to see as lag. You seem keen to disagree with most of what I post so feel free to not bother :)
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: nrshida on September 20, 2016, 03:59:00 AM
No nrshida. I am suggesting that there may be something amiss with the way things are presented in game outside of what we may expect to see as lag. You seem keen to disagree with most of what I post so feel free to not bother :)
So far I've disagreed that you were giving enough lead and that warping is the primary reason this fellow got out of your gunsight. You're in the wrong place if your expectation is mindless agreement.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Vudak on September 20, 2016, 05:09:10 AM
I did not watch this film but have seen aircraft instantly turn 90 degrees and then instantly turn the opposite 90 degrees while jinking. I too did not notice this in AH2.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: ImADot on September 20, 2016, 06:47:22 AM
There are more players with computers barely capable of running the new version. You will continue to see more warping than with AH2 until players upgrade their systems to be able to handle the added graphics loads and keep up with the data transfer rates needed for smooth multiplayer flight.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: DREDIOCK on September 20, 2016, 07:30:50 AM
Dont think its rendering or a warp looks like one of those newfangled stalls thats been happening on some of the planes I've been flying thats been driving me nuts.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Dobs on September 20, 2016, 07:33:20 AM
So essentially the player stalled the aircraft out, it torque flips over to the left, and he keeps accelerated stalling it. The issue really is with the coding....the Energy bleed of an aircraft no longer flying streamlined through the air is pretty damn high, not to mention the spike in induced drag as he hangs in the stall regime. So when an airplane with a big ole motor like that stalls, it should end up either nose low (gravity kicking in), or start spinning. Regardless the guy in the aircraft will be doing spin prevent or dive recovery vs BFM.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Max on September 20, 2016, 07:42:46 AM
Your guns sounds are better than mine :old: :old:
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: LCADolby on September 20, 2016, 07:44:57 AM
I thought they were cable pulling :huh
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: DREDIOCK on September 20, 2016, 08:10:37 AM
So essentially the player stalled the aircraft out, it torque flips over to the left, and he keeps accelerated stalling it. The issue really is with the coding....the Energy bleed of an aircraft no longer flying streamlined through the air is pretty damn high, not to mention the spike in induced drag as he hangs in the stall regime. So when an airplane with a big ole motor like that stalls, it should end up either nose low (gravity kicking in), or start spinning. Regardless the guy in the aircraft will be doing spin prevent or dive recovery vs BFM.
Cept he isnt intentionally accelerating it.
I've been getting the same type stalls while flying the D9 doing maneuvers that used to be so routine to me over the years they became second nature. Some of them arent even particularly aggressive. I thought it was just part of the new version and something I was going to have to learn to adjust to.
It doesnt happen to me in all planes which is why folks have been seeing me in different planes. I'm seeing what planes do what at what speeds all over again. Some planes stalls are more prominent then others
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: katanaso on September 20, 2016, 08:19:45 AM
Would be nice to get this under control as it makes tracking the defender very difficult. Another player who exhibited this behaviour was under full control of his plane and shot me as I went past even though my end was showing him do this sort of thing.
I've encountered a handful of players that can do this. They've learned to work the flight/stall model.
It's the AH3 version of AW's "Spin Turning" 190's.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Hungry on September 20, 2016, 08:49:19 AM
I've seen this as well in my case I thought I made hit, the plane was spinning in a 3/4 - 1/4 motion fast then slow. I thought I took parts off but just didn't see the parts fly so I backed off. The plane spun like this from about 5k down, when I didn't see the kill message I came back around. It literally looked like he bounced off the deck came straight at me and face shot me.
Needless to say I logged for the night
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: GScholz on September 20, 2016, 08:51:58 AM
One minute in this SAAB Safir does a nice snap roll:
In the OP's video it looks like a lag glitch at 21 seconds, due to there not being enough positional updates to accurately recreate the maneuver and the interpolation logic fails. This is the reason we get the "don't move your controls so fast" warning when stick-stirring. When spinning or snap rolling the "recording" that is transmitted via the internet and recreated on the other players' screens sometimes can't keep up with the rapid changes of pitch, roll and yaw, and funny things happen.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: popeye on September 20, 2016, 08:56:15 AM
Was tracking a Spit that did defensive "maneuvers" that were nothing like I've ever seen in AH before -- changing attitude so fast it was almost a blur -- and he maintained perfect control afterward. Didn't get a film.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Ratsy on September 20, 2016, 09:25:45 AM
Back in the Alpha I noticed, in the P51B for one example, that I could induce an accelerated stall/unrecoverable spin by tightening an already tight turn. My attempts to recover (three turns - opposite rudder) resulted in a secondary spin at low altitude. Crash.
This was observed by a squadron mate.
I went to work on my sticks and have been subtly tuning them for the last weeks. Successfully.
The video is similar but not the same as my experience. Not to feed the conspiracies, the Tiffie did some things that I don't recognize as a spin recovery, though he appeared to spin after the first 'snapping' event.
Since a snap roll is a legitimate defensive maneuver in some instances, it needs to be controlled. This looked like stick stirring to me.
Just my opinion.
:salute
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Rebel28 on September 20, 2016, 11:02:57 AM
My, it would be nice if it was a planed Defensive Maneuver but sorry to say it is just bad flying. I have performed this 3 times so far, first was in a P-51, second was in a P-47, and the third was last night in a SpitIV. It happens by pulling a tight turn riding too long on the stall warning and going into an uncontrollable spin. Each time managed to pull out of spin by nose down opposite rudder only to be quickly shot down after.
I shall call it the ROCK MANEUVER……
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: save on September 20, 2016, 11:57:47 AM
Snapstalling was many times 190A's at high alt's only way of escaping lower wingloaded planes 1944 onwards.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Chalenge on September 20, 2016, 12:12:39 PM
Snapstalls are for kites, not airplanes.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Invictus84 on September 20, 2016, 12:26:16 PM
Perfectly legitamate defensive manoeuvres with no more lag than with anything else. He's snap rolling to compensate for a poor roll rate is all.
Agreed, but I can also see the OPs point. The visual representation is rather odd and jumpy, at least compared to some other sims I fly.
I've also seen a few instances in AHIII where aircraft movement seemed odd. These have been isolated and unfortunately occurred when I was not recording, so I have not yet reported a bug. Once I catch one I'll be sure to send it off.
I'm sure HTC will fix eventually. AHIII is a new engine and I'm sure there are still plenty of rough edges left to iron out. Patience is the key. :)
FYI - I don't think I've ever tried to snap roll a Typhoon before. I think I'll put that on my To Do list for the weekend. :aok
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: nrshida on September 20, 2016, 01:10:48 PM
Agreed, but I can also see the OPs point. The visual representation is rather odd and jumpy, at least compared to some other sims I fly.
I've also seen a few instances in AHIII where aircraft movement seemed odd.
I can't comment about the AHIII flight modelling. My understanding was there were no changes. Perhaps accidental changes. Only HTC can investigate, but I've seen this sort of thing in AHII from time to time.
I can't comment about the AHIII flight modelling. My understanding was there were no changes. Perhaps accidental changes. Only HTC can investigate, but I've seen this sort of thing in AHII from time to time.
Probably the best explanation for the repeated flipping weirdness.
(http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/8272/pee.gif)
Don't confuse what you see the other guys do with flight modeling. Net lag and intermittentcy can do strange things.
HiTech
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: nrshida on September 20, 2016, 01:20:03 PM
Yup I know. The flight modelling didn't change in AHIII, just something to do with the engine?
The ONLY flight model change (THAT INCLUDES ENGINES) in anything was the web bug fix. I.E. there was not supposed to be infinite # of wep cycles on all planes.
HiTech
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Lusche on September 20, 2016, 01:31:00 PM
The ONLY flight model change (THAT INCLUDES ENGINES) in anything was the web bug fix. I.E. there was not supposed to be infinite # of wep cycles on all planes.
HiTech
And how many WEP cycles or minutes total do we have now?
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: hitech on September 20, 2016, 01:39:50 PM
And how many WEP cycles or minutes total do we have now?
Each plane was always written independently, so it depends on which plane.The bug was a global code bug not a data issue. Planes with consumables should only have 1, unless a shorter duty cycle was defined in the manual. All other planes I would have to look.
HiTech
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: FLS on September 20, 2016, 01:48:35 PM
The ONLY flight model change (THAT INCLUDES ENGINES) in anything was the web bug fix. I.E. there was not supposed to be infinite # of wep cycles on all planes.
HiTech
You don't consider the prop pitch governor lag a flight model change?
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: hitech on September 20, 2016, 02:09:29 PM
While technically it is a change, it's so minor in the effect it has on any performance , I think of it as simply a sound effect change.
But your correct that is a change in the model.
What does it mean in terms of flight, some lag in throttle inputs / responsiveness?
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: FLS on September 20, 2016, 02:24:52 PM
It changes the snap roll. Less yaw. Watch your rpm and listen to the sound change.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Vulcan on September 20, 2016, 02:47:35 PM
I've seen this in 109s, 190s, maybe others and been accused of it in Yaks. Planes seem to snap instantly through 90 degree roll changes.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: JunkyII on September 20, 2016, 02:54:12 PM
Reminds me of GHI's "defensive manuever"....just got to hit him or slow down enough to stay behind him....definitely looks laggy and make it hard to hit
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: nrshida on September 20, 2016, 03:06:20 PM
Don't confuse what you see the other guys do with flight modeling. Net lag and intermittentcy can do strange things.
HiTech
For the record, I wasn't referring to the flight model in my post. I specifically stated the the visual representation appeared off, which of course could be lag related.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Randall172 on September 20, 2016, 04:21:05 PM
I'm really curious why you believe there is less yaw?
HiTech
If you look at the airshow videos on my youtube link you'll see maneuvers I can't do in AH3. Basically a vertical snap roll like a lomcevak entry. I'm guessing it's due to less yaw from torque when I'm slow enough to lose yaw stability since the only difference I know of is the governor lag and air pressure response.
I'm not saying it's bad or wrong, just noticing it's different.
The Corsair ground view video is a good example. Or the P-47M.
The total forces may end up the same but they seem to be reduced at a critical point in the maneuver.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: DREDIOCK on September 20, 2016, 08:44:03 PM
I can say without question the D9 does not perform the same as it did in AH2. With the ridiculous amount of time I've spent in that bird over the last bunch of years. If something its different, even minor. I'm gonna notice.
As I've said before there are certain maneuvers what have become second nature to me over the years and certain things I used to be able to do at specific speeds that now send me into a stall. One in particular is one I liked to use in the vertical using a combination of stick,throttle and flaps created a maneuver similar to what Skyyr used to like to do in the 152 in snapping his nose around only without needing to shut off my engine.
Its like the plane doesnt respond the same to flaps the same as it used to. The nose also doesn't want to pull around as nimbly as it used to also
I also notice the 152 doesnt seem as prone to stalls as it was. Or at least not the same types of stalls it was before. Its almost like the two were switched.
I've also experienced the same type stalls while turning in the D9 that is shown on the film presented here.
My first inclination is always to look at things on my end first. Particularly in this case as I was previously some having stick spiking issues. But I have since resolved that problem, Compound that with If it were happening to all the planes I were flying I'd see that as proof its something on my end. But that isn't the case. Im seeing most of the planes having their own nuances. what causes a stall in one doesnt particularly cause a stall in another under the same conditions.
As I've also said. Im looking at things in that is just how the game now is and I just have to re learn the game. But this is what I am seeing
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: FLS on September 20, 2016, 10:07:52 PM
One subtle difference is that the sound of the stall buffet has changed. Since it's your last warning before departure you want to get familiar with the new sound.
The difference you're seeing in the vertical stall maneuver is the same one I described for Hitech. The BnZ guys won't notice more than a sound and RPM change but anyone used to swapping ends in a vertical turn is likely to notice a difference.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: nrshida on September 21, 2016, 03:20:53 AM
If you look at the airshow videos on my youtube link you'll see maneuvers I can't do in AH3. Basically a vertical snap roll like a lomcevak entry. I'm guessing it's due to less yaw from torque when I'm slow enough to lose yaw stability since the only difference I know of is the governor lag and air pressure response.
This is bad news. Years of R&D and unorthodoxy washed down the toilet. Rivers and seas boiling, 40 years of darkness, earthquakes, volcanos, the dead rising from the grave, human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria!
Can't you fix it HiTech, if this wasn't expressely intended, isn't it technically a bug?
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Randy1 on September 21, 2016, 05:57:15 AM
I can say without question the D9 does not perform the same as it did in AH2. . . .
I thought the same thing with the P-38. HTC has posted that the model has not changed. I think what the problem is the video processing, and sounds are different. What sounds we expected to hear and the look on the screen at the moment you add rudder as an example are just not the same look and sound as ah2.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Chalenge on September 21, 2016, 06:12:49 AM
According to the search function on this board this is not the first time a new version has caused this same issue. HTC will clear it up.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: LCADolby on September 21, 2016, 06:17:31 AM
P51 after rearming the temp hit the stop at 140' from 80' instantly. So no
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: popeye on September 21, 2016, 08:17:00 AM
If something its different, even minor. I'm gonna notice.
Don't forget that the clear, dry desert air of AHII has been replaced with the cloudy air of AHIII. Tests show that the relative humidity is 21.4% higher. This explains the subtle difference in aircraft performance.
:D
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: hitech on September 21, 2016, 08:38:06 AM
This is bad news. Years of R&D and unorthodoxy washed down the toilet. Rivers and seas boiling, 40 years of darkness, earthquakes, volcanos, the dead rising from the grave, human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria!
Can't you fix it HiTech, if this wasn't expressely intended, isn't it technically a bug?
Nothing to be fixed. And I do not believe the governor lag ( we are speaking of at most 200 rpm difference during the deceleration) would effect the maneuver.
HiTech
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: nrshida on September 21, 2016, 09:43:20 AM
Nothing to be fixed. And I do not believe the governor lag ( we are speaking of at most 200 rpm difference during the deceleration) would effect the maneuver.
Try harder FLS you noob!
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: FLS on September 21, 2016, 11:14:48 AM
Nothing to be fixed. And I do not believe the governor lag ( we are speaking of at most 200 rpm difference during the deceleration) would effect the maneuver.
HiTech
It's a mystery then. Fixed prop flies the same, constant pitch is different. The snap roll decreases RPM now with constant speed props and the snap roll result is different for some unknown reason.
I thought the same thing with the P-38. HTC has posted that the model has not changed. I think what the problem is the video processing, and sounds are different. What sounds we expected to hear and the look on the screen at the moment you add rudder as an example are just not the same look and sound as ah2.
That would not cause the change in post departure gyrations. The difference is the forces expressed after you stall one wing.
Edit: Did some testing. The P-38 drops 500 RPM in a snap roll but the single engine change is much less.
I did get the P-47M and eventually the F4UA-1 to fly backwards so I must have been doing something differently, probably flaps, when they wouldn't rotate before.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: nrshida on September 21, 2016, 12:17:29 PM
I did get the P-47M and eventually the F4UA-1 to fly backwards so I must have been doing something differently, probably flaps, when they wouldn't rotate before.
So is there a change to the flight model or not?
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: 38ruk on September 21, 2016, 12:29:35 PM
I thought the same thing.....the 38 seems different to me. It seems like it wants to fall out of the sky in tight turns compared to the past. Thought it was a different stick settings but they are the same as they always were
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: FLS on September 21, 2016, 12:36:21 PM
I thought the same thing.....the 38 seems different to me. It seems like it wants to fall out of the sky in tight turns compared to the past. Thought it was a different stick settings but they are the same as they always were
Note that the stall buffet sound has changed and you may pull to a stall if you don't listen for the new sound.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Wiley on September 21, 2016, 12:37:02 PM
I did get the P-47M and eventually the F4UA-1 to fly backwards so I must have been doing something differently, probably flaps, when they wouldn't rotate before.
Not quite sure if you're saying that's new behavior, but the F4Us were easy to get to fly backwards in 2 as well. I used to be able to do it at will and quite often unintentionally if I pressed a rolling scissor too hard in AHII. Just trying to add info.
Wiley.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: nrshida on September 21, 2016, 01:18:30 PM
You'd make a fine politician. Can you or can you not depart at will as easily as you could in AHII?
I answered your question clearly and accurately. "Can you depart as easily?" is a different question. It refers to stalling the wing and has little to do with what happens next which is the expression of forces no longer in balance.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: nrshida on September 21, 2016, 01:32:17 PM
I did get the P-47M and eventually the F4UA-1 to fly backwards so I must have been doing something differently, probably flaps, when they wouldn't rotate before.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: nrshida on September 21, 2016, 01:41:15 PM
So you were wrong in your ealier statement is what you're saying. HiTech was right and you just perceived it incorrectly likely in accord with other environmental changes. AND on the side there was a minor change to the prop model which does not affect the flight model?
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: FLS on September 21, 2016, 01:56:58 PM
So you were wrong in your ealier statement is what you're saying. HiTech was right and you just perceived it incorrectly likely in accord with other environmental changes. AND on the side there was a minor change to the prop model which does not affect the flight model?
Finally you tell us what's really on your mind. :rofl
Hitech said I was right that the prop model change is a flight model change. Does that make you wrong again?
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: FLS on September 21, 2016, 02:19:26 PM
Not quite sure if you're saying that's new behavior, but the F4Us were easy to get to fly backwards in 2 as well. I used to be able to do it at will and quite often unintentionally if I pressed a rolling scissor too hard in AHII. Just trying to add info.
Wiley.
Falling backwards is relatively easy. It's ascending backwards that's difficult. Here the F4U is going sideways as well as up. There's a similar move in the video but the second time I over-rotate.
Falling backwards is relatively easy. It's ascending backwards that's difficult. Here the F4U is going sideways as well as up. There's a similar move in the video but the second time I over-rotate.
I thought the same thing with the P-38. HTC has posted that the model has not changed. I think what the problem is the video processing, and sounds are different. What sounds we expected to hear and the look on the screen at the moment you add rudder as an example are just not the same look and sound as ah2.
Yes. Initially the sounds were throwing me off some. But what I am talking about has to do with speed. I'm used to being able to do X Y and Z at certain speeds. And now I cant using the same exact techniques I did before. That has nothing to do with sound. the plane could be singing "Goodbye My Coney Island Baby" or "Those Magnificent Men in Their Flying Machines" and the maneuver should perform the same.
For example. If in a D-9 Im used to being able to do an immelman at 210 MPH as a matter of routine Done thousands of times before and now doing said maneuver the exact same way sends me into a stall it has nothing to do with the sound
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: FLS on September 21, 2016, 10:07:46 PM
... If in a D-9 Im used to being able to do an immelman at 210 MPH as a matter of routine Done thousands of times before and now doing said maneuver the exact same way sends me into a stall it has nothing to do with the sound
If you are used to the stall buffet sound stopping you from pulling into a stall and you don't notice the new stall buffet sound then sound can be the critical difference.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: nrshida on September 21, 2016, 11:46:40 PM
If you look at the airshow videos on my youtube link you'll see maneuvers I can't do in AH3.
Correct or an error on your part?
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: JOACH1M on September 22, 2016, 12:02:17 AM
:confused:
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: FESS67 on September 22, 2016, 04:31:17 AM
ROFL - so FLS, you would have us believe that Sean D Tucker is living amongst us in AH3.
What we are seeing is an anomaly. It is not lag dependent and I am certain it is not physically possible. When you provide film of a WW2 P47M flipping nose vertical up / down/ up/ down / up faster than I can type that description, I will believe your BS about some air show move.
You know it is ok to be a fan boy but there is a point at which you really have to understand it is time to extend and live to fight another day.
Respectfully yours,
A fan of the game without blinkers on
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Scca on September 22, 2016, 05:17:52 AM
The ONLY flight model change (THAT INCLUDES ENGINES) in anything was the web bug fix. I.E. there was not supposed to be infinite # of wep cycles on all planes.
HiTech
Are you saying wep cycles are limited now? If so, where can we look up which planes were/are effected?
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: FLS on September 22, 2016, 09:56:34 AM
ROFL - so FLS, you would have us believe that Sean D Tucker is living amongst us in AH3.
What we are seeing is an anomaly. It is not lag dependent and I am certain it is not physically possible. When you provide film of a WW2 P47M flipping nose vertical up / down/ up/ down / up faster than I can type that description, I will believe your BS about some air show move.
You know it is ok to be a fan boy but there is a point at which you really have to understand it is time to extend and live to fight another day.
Respectfully yours,
A fan of the game without blinkers on
The only fast flipping is the camera swiveling as the aircraft passes overhead. The only anomaly I'm aware of is going backwards with flaps down and not damaging them. Many would say Rob Holland's video wasn't possible until they saw it done. Why do you think my modest maneuvers aren't possible? I don't mind you criticizing the flight model but please be specific.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: nrshida on September 22, 2016, 11:02:42 AM
Let me save you the trouble. Rule 4 right?
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Shuffler on September 22, 2016, 12:26:34 PM
I only noticed that you shoot an awful lot when you do not have guns on target or near enough lead on the target in a hard turn. This must be troubling to you.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: nrshida on September 23, 2016, 01:42:26 AM
So in the remote case that anyone else here is actually interested in getting to the bottom of this:
I've been PMing someone who doesn't spend his time stealth trolling people on this forum under the deceitful guise of technical discussion. Instead he's devoted his energies to mastering ACM as it applies to Aces High and actually knows what he's talking about. He's also incorporated departure moves or post-stall manoeuvres (whatever terminology you want to use) into his ACM. He reported he hasn't noticed any FM change from AHII to AHIII. If he hasn't noticed it, I'm convinced it isn't there. Differences in the environment putting people off, is his suggestion.
I have to say I'm both surprised and disappointed how this thread has been allowed to pan out. A simple and relevant technical question about AHII / III deliberately obfuscated and avoided to save face after an erroneous unsubstantiated claim and no action taken. Has to cast doubt over the merit of both this forum and the Training Corps, in my opinion.
Go ahead and Rule number 4 that and I give you my word I'll be leaving this forum on a point of principal. Much to the relief of some Members I'm sure.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: hitech on September 23, 2016, 08:29:44 AM
nrshida , there has only been one person in this thread acting like a jerk. And that person is you.
Under normal circumstances I should rule 4 your post this time but I don't wish to grant your self imposed martyrdom. You have not been able to take the hint when I already modded your posts. You still continue to push.
So either take your issues to private messaging or you will very shortly not be posting on this bbs for a while. And then you can still claim your great self created martyrdom based on a principle I have no idea what it could be.
Your best response is not to respond to this post but simply change your behavior.
HiTech
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Dobs on September 23, 2016, 09:13:58 AM
You realize the entire length of his wing are ailerons right? And his Rudder is HUGE! A light weight Hi-power aircraft designed for maneuverability and "stunt" flying.... The closest thing we have in game to that would be a zero. A corsair flipping and flying backwards uphill...Now that is funny and a huge FM flaw.
I've seen the intentional cross control Flop at tree top level.....its amazing how a plane which quits flying doesn't fall.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: FLS on September 23, 2016, 09:48:19 AM
Yes I have noticed the obvious differences between state of the art aerobatic aircraft and WW2 fighters.
If you'd like to discuss the flight model please be specific.
Nobody would try that in a surviving Warbird and I doubt a pilot in WW2 would try it except by accident so we'll likely never know what is possible.
You may want to flip a Corsair or P-47 around and fly it backwards so you're not just guessing how it happens.
The aircraft are different, the physics of flight in single engine aircraft are the same.
You'll notice that aerobatic stunts that don't require an MX look the same in Aces High but not so much in other simulations.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: LCADolby on September 23, 2016, 12:08:34 PM
I have not found any changes to the flight model in doing my usual aggressive combat manoeuvres. Stalls, recoveries, departures, cake and lime wedge all as per usual.
What I have seen is aircraft flip out because AcesHigh isn't updating the aircraft positions fast enough. It isn't the traditional warp were the plane goes off 50 or 100 yards from the start point, it stays in its position but the 3D model goes crackers flipping the plane out all over. Anyone watching my stream over the last few days will have seen this "phenomena" at least 5 times.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: hitech on September 23, 2016, 12:09:58 PM
I have not found any changes to the flight model in doing my usual aggressive combat manoeuvres. Stalls, recoveries, departures, cake and lime wedge all as per usual.
What I have seen is aircraft flip out because AcesHigh isn't updating the aircraft positions fast enough. It isn't the traditional warp were the plane goes off 50 or 100 yards from the start point, it stays in its position but the 3D model goes crackers flipping the plane out all over. Anyone watching my stream over the last few days will have seen this "phenomena" at least 5 times.
If you have any AHF of that it would help a lot.
HiTech
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Vudak on September 23, 2016, 12:35:10 PM
Vertical entry snap roll with 2 notches flaps, speed around 150. Once you start to rotate adjust throttle and play with the stick and rudder to influence the post stall gyrations.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: GScholz on September 23, 2016, 01:30:53 PM
I haven't seen any WWII aircraft at airshows do things I can't do in-game. I've seen plenty of aerobatics stunt planes, but that's a whole other matter entirely. I'm sure many WWII fighters could be flown very acrobatically, but I'm not sure anyone were crazy enough to do so back then.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: FLS on September 23, 2016, 02:03:47 PM
I haven't seen any WWII aircraft at airshows do things I can't do in-game. I've seen plenty of aerobatics stunt planes, but that's a whole other matter entirely. I'm sure many WWII fighters could be flown very acrobatically, but I'm not sure anyone were crazy enough to do so back then.
Young fighter pilots flying with their friends away from the base? They wouldn't be crazy enough to report it. :D
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: darkzking on September 23, 2016, 02:25:59 PM
nrshida , there has only been one person in this thread acting like a jerk. And that person is you.
Under normal circumstances I should rule 4 your post this time but I don't wish to grant your self imposed martyrdom. You have not been able to take the hint when I already modded your posts. You still continue to push.
So either take your issues to private messaging or you will very shortly not be posting on this bbs for a while. And then you can still claim your great self created martyrdom based on a principle I have no idea what it could be.
Your best response is not to respond to this post but simply change your behavior.
HiTech
Is that a threat? Is this how you respond when someone backs you into a corner with legitimate questions about your flight model?
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: FLS on September 23, 2016, 02:29:02 PM
nrshida , there has only been one person in this thread acting like a jerk. And that person is you.
I can see how you’d perceive me as being the only jerk if you only look to the confines of this thread. Am I by the way somehow uniquely not entitled to be a jerk around here from time to time?
Regarding martyrdom some principals ought to be fought for regardless of the consequences.
If indeed you were asking, the one that's driving me to be a jerk is the conviction that the forum rules should be equally applied and not interpreted differently from person to person. If you think they are then perhaps you ought to look back over some of the posts from some of the other parties who've been bickering in this thread with an open mind. If you don't see plentiful unchecked rule 4 violations then we aren't even reading the same language.
You have not been able to take the hint when I already modded your posts. You still continue to push.
You also modded as many of FLS’s posts. I pushed for an answer to a technical issue not even raised by me while, by the way, the other party made this personal. To be fair, I did PM you trying to explain my motivation for pushing this issue. While I appreciate your busyness especially this week perhaps a simple, brief reply would have been more direct than ambiguous hinting by modding, which I see so frequently here it hardly registers anymore.
Your best response is not to respond to this post but simply change your behavior.
It is unreasonable to expect me not to reply to such a post and not be able to defend myself. PNG me just as you wish. I will not bend to unjust and disrespectful treatment.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: nrshida on September 23, 2016, 02:44:25 PM
I can see how you’d perceive me as being the only jerk if you only look to the confines of this thread. Am I by the way somehow uniquely not entitled to be a jerk around here from time to time?
Regarding martyrdom some principals ought to be fought for regardless of the consequences.
If indeed you were asking, the one that's driving me to be a jerk is the conviction that the forum rules should be equally applied and not interpreted differently from person to person. If you think they are then perhaps you ought to look back over some of the posts from some of the other parties who've been bickering in this thread with an open mind. If you don't see plentiful unchecked rule 4 violations then we aren't even reading the same language.
You also modded as many of FLS’s posts. I pushed for an answer to a technical issue not even raised by me while, by the way, the other party made this personal. To be fair, I did PM you trying to explain my motivation for pushing this issue. While I appreciate your busyness especially this week perhaps a simple, brief reply would have been more direct than ambiguous hinting by modding, which I see so frequently here it hardly registers anymore.
It is unreasonable to expect me not to reply to such a post and not be able to defend myself. PNG me just as you wish. I will not bend to unjust and disrespectful treatment.
This post is wrong in so many ways, I can't even begin to comment on it.
HiTech
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Vulcan on September 23, 2016, 04:09:56 PM
no AHF sorry, but here is my view of the wiggle...
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: katanaso on September 23, 2016, 04:43:38 PM
That's similar to what I see as well. I bet I know who that one was. :)
LOL I would bet I know who that is as well. I see exactly the same against him. However, I do not think he is doing anything deliberate to induce this, other than perform an aggressive move. There is something in AH3 that renders the planes this way.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: 38ruk on September 23, 2016, 05:02:26 PM
To take this from Hitech's sig and my old friend slappy......"There is always a small microcosm of people who need to explain away their suckage." SlapShot
I truly thought about this quote before commenting here , maybe i was blaming the new game for my lack of skill ..... but i still think something ''feels'' different in the way the 38 maneuvers compared to AH2.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: RufusLeaking on September 23, 2016, 05:37:33 PM
Meanwhile, back at the OP ...
I have perceived a more rapid snap roll in several aircraft in AH3 as compared to AH2.
Maybe 'snap roll' is the wrong term. It is in a turn (accelerated stall) with a significant, sudden, uncontrolled change in attitude.
I have no film. As I said, it is a perception. I have been trying to be smoother on increasing elevator inputs, which appears to be lessening the problem. :joystick:
In the real world, the low level flopping airshow planes will eventually, inevitably crash. It is a reckless maneuver. :old:
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: FLS on September 23, 2016, 05:49:33 PM
I have perceived a more rapid snap roll in several aircraft in AH3 as compared to AH2.
Maybe 'snap roll' is the wrong term. It is in a turn (accelerated stall) with a significant, sudden, uncontrolled change in attitude.
I have no film. As I said, it is a perception. I have been trying to be smoother on increasing elevator inputs, which appears to be lessening the problem. :joystick:
In the real world, the low level flopping airshow planes will eventually, inevitably crash. It is a reckless maneuver. :old:
Did you notice the stall buffet sound is different? Its likely you're stalling one wing and that's snap rolling you.
I have perceived a more rapid snap roll in several aircraft in AH3 as compared to AH2.
Maybe 'snap roll' is the wrong term. It is in a turn (accelerated stall) with a significant, sudden, uncontrolled change in attitude.
I have no film. As I said, it is a perception. I have been trying to be smoother on increasing elevator inputs, which appears to be lessening the problem. :joystick:
In the real world, the low level flopping airshow planes will eventually, inevitably crash. It is a reckless maneuver. :old:
How your plane snap rolls or how other planes snap roll?
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: RufusLeaking on September 23, 2016, 08:56:00 PM
I haven't noticed any sound other than the horn. ...
The new stall buffet sounds like shaking a sheet of metal.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Dobs on September 23, 2016, 11:40:04 PM
So if that plane is truly tumbling...its not losing airspeed as you can see in the last bit of the video where he is low and inside Vulcan's turn.
I watched one do that at tree top level the other day, and pulled up thinking he was dead...nope...flew right up my tail pipe...cuz tumbling increases speed it appears.
Recovery should be damn significantly nose low as the heavy bit gets claimed by gravity....and have to build flying airspeed back.
Burying the stick in a back corner will depart the aircraft in a hurry. I think the associated E bleed is not high enough so people are using it as stop and GO technique.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: LCADolby on September 24, 2016, 12:33:27 AM
So if that plane is truly tumbling...its not losing airspeed as you can see in the last bit of the video where he is low and inside Vulcan's turn.
I watched one do that at tree top level the other day, and pulled up thinking he was dead...nope...flew right up my tail pipe...cuz tumbling increases speed it appears.
Recovery should be damn significantly nose low as the heavy bit gets claimed by gravity....and have to build flying airspeed back.
Burying the stick in a back corner will depart the aircraft in a hurry. I think the associated E bleed is not high enough so people are using it as stop and GO technique.
He is clearly slowing down and losing altitude while snap rolling. If you can explain what his recovery speed should be that would be great. Some film of you tumbling and going faster would be good too. :aok
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: ImADot on September 24, 2016, 08:33:11 AM
This is very similar to what I am talking about, the plane goes crackers briefly.
I've seen the same behavior occastionally, but it has been very rare.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Dawger on September 24, 2016, 12:33:05 PM
By definition a stalled airfoil is in its very highest induced drag state the moment it begins flying again since it is at maximum AOA at that moment.
Form drag during a "tumble" is tremendous. The stress on the airframe is tremendous.
While aerobatic tumbles look like chaos they are actually carefully planned and executed maneuvers.
In modern aerobatic aircraft with extremely high thrust to weight and structure purpose built for the extreme stress of these maneuvers, Lomcovak's and other tumbles are routinely performed. However, they ALL require a brief period of extreme nose low attitude to regain flying speed.
The forces involved in this things wreaks havoc on aircraft structure, with engine mounts most susceptible to failure.
Doing these things in WWII era aircraft is a fantasy that would rip the engines off these aircraft if attempted.
The ability to recover from one without reducing the pitch 45 degrees below the horizon until speed builds is only possible in a radio controlled aircraft with power to weight in excess of 1 to 1. Nothing manned can achieve that except a jet and jets lack the gyroscopic forces necessary to create these tumbles. (There is one jet capable of the lomcovak)
Plain old snap rolls are possible in just about any aircraft but again require pitch reductions to recover flying airspeed for a brief period.
What we see in AH with regard to post stall nose pointing at high AOA is pure fantasy.
And that is okay. It is a game and its good for the bottom line for Hitech to create the feeling in his subscribers that they are masters of virtual skies.
But lets not pretend it is reflective of the real world.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: FLS on September 24, 2016, 12:55:00 PM
Dawger you make a lot of unsupported claims. Neil Williams, who taught himself aerobatics in a Tiger Moth, said the Lomcevak is a surprisingly low stress maneuver when you do it properly. Aircraft in the video appears to be recovering nose low.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: hitech on September 24, 2016, 01:05:27 PM
By definition a stalled airfoil is in its very highest induced drag state the moment it begins flying again since it is at maximum AOA at that moment.
Form drag during a "tumble" is tremendous. The stress on the airframe is tremendous.
While aerobatic tumbles look like chaos they are actually carefully planned and executed maneuvers.
In modern aerobatic aircraft with extremely high thrust to weight and structure purpose built for the extreme stress of these maneuvers, Lomcovak's and other tumbles are routinely performed. However, they ALL require a brief period of extreme nose low attitude to regain flying speed.
The forces involved in this things wreaks havoc on aircraft structure, with engine mounts most susceptible to failure.
Doing these things in WWII era aircraft is a fantasy that would rip the engines off these aircraft if attempted.
The ability to recover from one without reducing the pitch 45 degrees below the horizon until speed builds is only possible in a radio controlled aircraft with power to weight in excess of 1 to 1. Nothing manned can achieve that except a jet and jets lack the gyroscopic forces necessary to create these tumbles. (There is one jet capable of the lomcovak)
Plain old snap rolls are possible in just about any aircraft but again require pitch reductions to recover flying airspeed for a brief period.
What we see in AH with regard to post stall nose pointing at high AOA is pure fantasy.
And that is okay. It is a game and its good for the bottom line for Hitech to create the feeling in his subscribers that they are masters of virtual skies.
But lets not pretend it is reflective of the real world.
First if your going to speak of flight modeling at least start by getting your terms right.
" nose pointing at high AOA" Is a completely nonsensical term. I assume you mean nose high relative to the horizon.
Ive personally done snap rolls in many different airplanes including p51's at about 45 inches of Manifold pressure during air combat . The recovery did not require nose low, but simply a quick unload and hard opposite rudder would hook the plane right back up. I've done inverted snaps by accident in my rv which also did not require any nose low.
HiTech
Ive also done Lomcovak's in an older yak. And I don't believe if you manage to do one in AH you could recover with out nose low either. In fact to accomplish the maneuver it requires very low air speed at the correct time and the plane just becomes ballistic.
As far as could the fighters of the day take the stresses of tumbling maneuvers? I would be very surprised if they couldn't.
HiTech
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: JunkyII on September 24, 2016, 01:25:04 PM
He is clearly slowing down and losing altitude while snap rolling. If you can explain what his recovery speed should be that would be great. Some film of you tumbling and going faster would be good too. :aok
I know for a fact these tumbles end you with less energy...but is it realistic that you could pull those Gs and still make a shot? You don't lose much e other than enough to force an overshoot in AH....
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: FLS on September 24, 2016, 01:43:35 PM
I know for a fact these tumbles end you with less energy...but is it realistic that you could pull those Gs and still make a shot? You don't lose much e other than enough to force an overshoot in AH....
Record some film of the most extreme maneuvers you can pull off then watch your g meter when watching the film.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: JunkyII on September 24, 2016, 01:46:24 PM
I can say without question the D9 does not perform the same as it did in AH2. With the ridiculous amount of time I've spent in that bird over the last bunch of years. If something its different, even minor. I'm gonna notice.
As I've said before there are certain maneuvers what have become second nature to me over the years and certain things I used to be able to do at specific speeds that now send me into a stall. One in particular is one I liked to use in the vertical using a combination of stick,throttle and flaps created a maneuver similar to what Skyyr used to like to do in the 152 in snapping his nose around only without needing to shut off my engine.
Its like the plane doesnt respond the same to flaps the same as it used to. The nose also doesn't want to pull around as nimbly as it used to also
I also notice the 152 doesnt seem as prone to stalls as it was. Or at least not the same types of stalls it was before. Its almost like the two were switched.
I've also experienced the same type stalls while turning in the D9 that is shown on the film presented here.
My first inclination is always to look at things on my end first. Particularly in this case as I was previously some having stick spiking issues. But I have since resolved that problem, Compound that with If it were happening to all the planes I were flying I'd see that as proof its something on my end. But that isn't the case. Im seeing most of the planes having their own nuances. what causes a stall in one doesnt particularly cause a stall in another under the same conditions.
As I've also said. Im looking at things in that is just how the game now is and I just have to re learn the game. But this is what I am seeing
Apply this to the A-5 as well. It feels very off, especially in vertical maneuvers.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: JunkyII on September 24, 2016, 02:56:15 PM
You black out or red out when you exceed G limits for the pilot, do you see G loads snap rolling that would break the aircraft?
What? How are you getting to breaking an aircraft from my comments? What I'm saying is that I don't physically think a pilot could function after doing these manuevers, let alone make a shot afterwards...now I'm not talking about aerobatic manuevers but Aces High in game irradiated behavior which a film has already been posted of. Heck last night Devil 505 and I were shooting at a guy who.was bouncing around all over in near level flight NOE...tell me how in real life these manuevers are pulled off....you cant, because it's created by differences between input on controls and what we see as enemy on our end.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: FLS on September 24, 2016, 03:07:53 PM
What? How are you getting to breaking an aircraft from my comments? What I'm saying is that I don't physically think a pilot could function after doing these manuevers, let alone make a shot afterwards...now I'm not talking about aerobatic manuevers but Aces High in game irradiated behavior which a film has already been posted of. Heck last night Devil 505 and I were shooting at a guy who.was bouncing around all over in near level flight NOE...tell me how in real life these manuevers are pulled off....you cant, because it's created by differences between input on controls and what we see as enemy on our end.
I'm talking about the flight model, you're talking about something you saw that I haven't seen so I can't comment on it unless I see it.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Dawger on September 24, 2016, 03:14:49 PM
My terms are correct.
High AOA is high AOA regardless of deck angle. However, nose pointing ability while at high AOA AND high deck angle is the most relevant situation.
And the forces on the pilot at the center of rotation in the Lomcovak are quite a bit less than on the propellor/ engine out at the end of the lever.
So, yes, the pilot experiences relatively minor forces during the typical Lomcovak but that does not equate to what the engine/prop or tail is experiencing.
I can see I have touched a nerve so I with respectfully withdraw from further comment.
I am not seeking to change anything nor win an internet victory.
<S>
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: FLS on September 24, 2016, 03:21:25 PM
Always happy to discuss opinions. You seem to be ignoring the loss of yaw stabilization at low speeds and the orientation of gravity. Flying the maneuvers and watching the films is helpful for discussion.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: JunkyII on September 24, 2016, 03:27:51 PM
I'm talking about the flight model, you're talking about something you saw that I haven't seen so I can't comment on it unless I see it.
I'm talking about the films posted any many other situations like that...doesn't matter if it's AHfilm or not that isn't a thing in BFM, ACM or any sort of manuevering for aircraft...it's just lag on one end or the other which creates a graphic error on the end of the person looking at it.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: FESS67 on September 24, 2016, 03:29:10 PM
Both the film I posted and the film Dolby posted show the problem. We do not believe this is a physical world issue but rather something graphical in game.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Dobs on September 24, 2016, 03:30:43 PM
Loss of yaw stability at low speed with power up should be a bear since the P-Factor would be huge at this point.
AoA is AOA...regardless of pitch attitude. If you break down you just have gravity helping you...
Snap rolls are one thing...end over end tumbling should end up with significant alt loss since you are now falling vs flying.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: JunkyII on September 24, 2016, 03:38:25 PM
Loss of yaw stability at low speed with power up should be a bear since the P-Factor would be huge at this point.
AoA is AOA...regardless of pitch attitude. If you break down you just have gravity helping you...
Snap rolls are one thing...end over end tumbling should end up with significant alt loss since you are now falling vs flying.
P-factor is a small part of the rotational forces, the biggest is likely the spiral thrust against the tail and you'd get gyroscopic precession from yanking the stick back or pushing it forward. Get them all working together and rotate with gravity.
If you can manage end over end tumbling in Aces High please post it. I don't mean shoulder rolls. :D
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: JunkyII on September 24, 2016, 03:44:38 PM
Both the film I posted and the film Dolby posted show the problem. We do not believe this is a physical world issue but rather something graphical in game.
Graphics wise it looks like the plane should be closer to stall speed after the manuever...but generally that plane will still have enough E to take a shot in AH.
I don't think this is an AH3 thing I just think people have figured it out. Legit watch GHI films from when you could fly in F3 mode in IL2s...all he was really doing was slight nose left or right manuevers while dumping his stick forward and chopping trottle...but on the other guys end it looks like he is nosing into the ground flipping
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Dobs on September 24, 2016, 05:45:45 PM
P-factor is a small part of the rotational forces, the biggest is likely the spiral thrust against the tail and you'd get gyroscopic precession from yanking the stick back or pushing it forward. Get them all working together and rotate with gravity.
If you can manage end over end tumbling in Aces High please post it. I don't mean shoulder rolls. :D
Should have said "torque, P-factor, and the associated effects of swinging a big old prop with a 2000+ HP engine with not enough airspeed for directional stability", but figured that was too much of a mouthful thinking that P-factor/torque/gyroscopic precession would be assumed.
Anyone have an idea of how much a P-51 Prop weighs? 1200ish lbs or so with an 11' diameter....that generates a ton of force.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: JOACH1M on September 24, 2016, 06:52:47 PM
If you changed your stick scaling in AH2 make sure to change them the way you had them in AH3. Wouldn't surprise me if that was some of the problem
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: FLS on September 24, 2016, 07:33:51 PM
Should have said "torque, P-factor, and the associated effects of swinging a big old prop with a 2000+ HP engine with not enough airspeed for directional stability", but figured that was too much of a mouthful thinking that P-factor/torque/gyroscopic precession would be assumed.
Anyone have an idea of how much a P-51 Prop weighs? 1200ish lbs or so with an 11' diameter....that generates a ton of force.
The engine weighs 1600 lbs. You sure the prop weighs 1200?
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Dobs on September 25, 2016, 12:12:27 AM
FLS--no:) Not sure...Hard to find exact weight but probably closer to 600lbs with hub.
A bud who flies these things for a living made a comment about the torque effect of 1400lb prop...don't know if he was "off the cuff" or not. But 11' prop with 4 blades....but I'd be interested to know. I know that RAF went to wooden props to save weight initially.... How much savings I don't know.
Cheers!
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: FLS on September 25, 2016, 03:06:23 AM
Dobs the mass of the prop, it's RPM, spiral slipstream, asymmetric thrust, rotational torque, and gyroscopic precession are all part of the flight model and they are expressed in the post stall gyrations.
Hitech did the math and wrote his own flight model. You and Dawger are guessing. You won't learn faster with hasty conclusions.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: JOACH1M on September 25, 2016, 04:02:28 AM
Turn combat trim off at very low speeds, you will notice much more control of the aircraft in stall speeds.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Drane on September 25, 2016, 05:27:35 AM
Here's film that might show the flippy wiggle thing. It seems like it would be ideal to have both ahf and screen capture film to compare. During the fight the 109 looked like it did the flippy wiggle. The film doesn't look like what I thought I saw in real time. Sorry if this doesn't help.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: mutha on September 25, 2016, 11:09:34 PM
Whether it's accurate or not, it seems to be becoming a tactic. Today I flew up behind a 110 and when I opened up on him he very quickly flopped over into that flip-flop mode. I had to extend and come back to kill him. Intentional or not, instantly departing controlled flight makes you a very difficult target to hit!
Mutha
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: JunkyII on September 26, 2016, 07:20:23 AM
Whether it's accurate or not, it seems to be becoming a tactic. Today I flew up behind a 110 and when I opened up on him he very quickly flopped over into that flip-flop mode. I had to extend and come back to kill him. Intentional or not, instantly departing controlled flight makes you a very difficult target to hit!
Mutha
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I disagree I believe it's been a tactic but people are just starting to figure it out in mass...that and I think people are seeing it better in AH3 with the sharper graphics.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Dobs on September 26, 2016, 08:54:23 AM
Dobs the mass of the prop, it's RPM, spiral slipstream, asymmetric thrust, rotational torque, and gyroscopic precession are all part of the flight model and they are expressed in the post stall gyrations.
Hitech did the math and wrote his own flight model. You and Dawger are guessing. You won't learn faster with hasty conclusions.
And you are guessing that we are guessing.
What you just said is not totally accurate..it is not JUST PART of the post stall regime , it exists all the time. And when do you feel it most? When you are slow and at FULL POWER....yet you really don't feel it until you stall here. Don't believe me...take the Ensign Eliminator up...Rotate and let go of the controls...let me know what happens. Oh it feels torquey on the ground, but once you break ground its a popsicle cat.. Right hand turning fights, you get a mild left roll tendency...and that is the king daddy of torque.
You are guessing that the FM is accurately reflected in game and not "dumbed" down so the average joe can fly it...
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Dawger on September 26, 2016, 10:06:22 AM
The P-51D used the HamStan 24D50 Hub usually with 6813 blades.
The weight of the total assembly (without oil which does add significant weight) is 447 lbs at maximum diameter allowed.
What you just said is not totally accurate..it is not JUST PART of the post stall regime , it exists all the time. And when do you feel it most? When you are slow and at FULL POWER....yet you really don't feel it until you stall here. Don't believe me...take the Ensign Eliminator up...Rotate and let go of the controls...let me know what happens. Oh it feels torquey on the ground, but once you break ground its a popsicle cat.. Right hand turning fights, you get a mild left roll tendency...and that is the king daddy of torque.
You are guessing that the FM is accurately reflected in game and not "dumbed" down so the average joe can fly it...
Dobs I know the forces are always there, that's why we trim isn't it? It's why I made the point about losing stability. The forces that were balanced are expressed in the rotation. Don't be hasty. I'm not guessing, I'm reading what you write. :D
Btw I worked at Hamilton Standard many years ago but not in the propeller section.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Dawger on September 26, 2016, 10:41:03 AM
A note on torque levels....
It is fairly commonly known that low airspeed and a sudden increase in power can overcome the flight controls in high performance WWII single engine fighters.
The Corsair was known as the Ensign Eliminator because it regularly killed neophytes who slammed the power on at slow speed.
The P-51 also could be difficult to control in this situation.
Griffon powered Spits were also "hairy beasts"
Quote
The P-51D, which I flew, was a very straightforward airplane in every way. By that I mean it wasn't difficult to fly or hard to handle, as long as you remembered a few basic things. First and foremost, you never forgot for a minute that it could bite hard if you got careless. There are lots of airplanes that will let you have another chance if you get ham-handed. The -51, in certain areas of her envelope, wasn't one of them. I remember telling everyone I ever checked out in the Mustang to take it up high, lower the gear and flaps, then back it off to about 15 inches with the prop up to 3 grand... slow it down easy to about 130 mph... then SLAM in 61 inches fast. The resulting torque roll might have helped save a few lives on full power go-arounds. None of my guys ever "torqued one in" anyway...
Quote
I was just talking to a WW-II Mustang driver about this subject yesterday. (55th FG, Duxford based) Before there were any TP-51s availalbe, the instructor pilot would take the new -51 driver up in formation and would demo slow flight and power application as part of the training syllabus from a safe (high) altitude. He recalls 120 kts, flaps and gear down and throwing the throttle to it. Once, he got 2 and a half snaps out of it before there was sufficient airspeed and control authority to recover.
Quote
In operational service many pilots initially found that the new fighter could be difficult to handle, particularly if they were used to earlier Spitfire marks. Don Healy of 17 Squadron, based at Madura recalled that the Mk XIV was;
a hairy beast to fly and took some getting used to. I personally preferred the old Mk Vs from a flying standpoint ... Even with full aileron, elevator and rudder, this brute of a fighter took off slightly sideways.
Of course, we don't see anything like this in game.
Again, this is just information. I don't want anything to change in the game. I just don't want folks thinking going from throttle stop to throttle stop at stall speed in a high performance single engine prop fighter was a piece of cake in real life. A lot of young men died learning these lessons. Lets not cheapen their memory.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: FLS on September 26, 2016, 10:55:16 AM
Information is good but to change the flight model you need something more than anecdotes. It would be a rare pilot in Aces High who didn't die once taking off or landing a Corsair.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: waystin2 on September 26, 2016, 11:00:07 AM
I like to call the flip flop manuever the.... (http://wiiudaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/starfox.jpg)
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: JOACH1M on September 26, 2016, 11:02:14 AM
Information is good but to change the flight model you need something more than anecdotes. It would be a rare pilot in Aces High who didn't die once taking off or landing a Corsair.
think I could handle it after a couple practice runs.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: waystin2 on September 26, 2016, 11:10:00 AM
think I could handle it after a couple practice runs.
You missed my point. If you ever crashed an F4U in game then you "died" in it. The F4U is an eliminator in the game. It wasn't hard to handle for experienced pilots.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: LCADolby on September 26, 2016, 11:59:54 AM
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: bustr on September 26, 2016, 12:06:58 PM
I don't know if the F4U-4 still does the same inexperienced player killing on landing. In AH1 and early AH2, I kept loosing them just at flair over the end of the runway because I would increase throttle too fast to pick up a sinking wing. A few times I flipped it on it's back just over the runway. In AH3 the pony and griffon spit don't seem as unforgiving as they used to.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: JunkyII on September 26, 2016, 12:12:13 PM
Starfox is also Mythical...his flying style is beyond obvious but that's not enough proof...
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Dobs on September 26, 2016, 12:19:40 PM
I don't know if the F4U-4 still does the same inexperienced player killing on landing. In AH1 and early AH2, I kept loosing them just at flair over the end of the runway because I would increase throttle too fast to pick up a sinking wing. A few times I flipped it on it's back just over the runway. In AH3 the pony and griffon spit don't seem as unforgiving as they used to.
No combat trim used....and yes you get a mild, "I'm going over" if you go WEP at stall speed in the -4. -4 was really the only one I could find that said "I'm a high performance monster with a buttload of HP!" and didn't handle like a Honda Odyssey.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: JunkyII on September 26, 2016, 12:23:09 PM
Bet you end up in Skyyr's next Youtube video...because someone "PMed" him about people in game :aok Heck I'm already expecting one about me.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: bustr on September 26, 2016, 12:26:58 PM
I never went to WEP, suddenly spooling up that prop in the condition I had the 4u on flair did it every time. I finally gave up on flaps at landing with it and drove it onto the runway, and way down to the other end slowly using breaks. With the late AH2 graphics upgrade, it became more forgiving with flaps out during landing. And there became a whole faction of people who started complaining about the Hog family and it's magic flaps about that time too.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Drane on September 26, 2016, 12:34:46 PM
Granted I missed the whole skyrr saga, but I don't get what is so bad about Starfox aside from people thinking he is skyrr.
I don't think he's Skyyr either, have seen him do things Skyyr would never do.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: bustr on September 26, 2016, 12:52:32 PM
He fly's a bit more like Kruel or one of the others who flew with them in the neoDamnd squad. Still, whom ever this player is, he is pulling off a pretty good troll by mimicking a generalized variation on skyyr's style. The clincher is the almost 100% kill rate if he HO's. I suspect that is clouding really looking for differences in the rest of the flying style.
If it were a forum troll, I'd put it up there with a kappa troll.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: waystin2 on September 26, 2016, 01:01:38 PM
Granted I missed the whole skyrr saga, but I don't get what is so bad about Starfox aside from people thinking he is skyrr.
He's just doing the same thing he did to get banned for...it's impossible to provide past coincidence but he's literally bee lined to me at me at 3 different fields on 3 sorties in a row even having changed countries on the last one...I don't mind fighting anyone but when he has the upper hand in EVERY one of our engagements, it gets annoying....so now I just fly on opposite country he is on to avoid him.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Vudak on September 26, 2016, 02:11:40 PM
I'd be flattered someone was making a beeline for me... It likely means you're the biggest threat in the sector (plus you actually get to fight someone... Starfox definitely fights).
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: JunkyII on September 26, 2016, 02:45:18 PM
I'd be flattered someone was making a beeline for me... It likely means you're the biggest threat in the sector (plus you actually get to fight someone... Starfox definitely fights).
Your absolutely right he is a good fight but I fight enough from a position of disadvantage in the MA to have someone always having it on me especially when said pilot is of that caliber. Which to his credit he is a good stick, arguably one of the best in the MA right now....anyone who thinks differently is either uninformed by how good he is because they don't KOTH or go to DA...or they are just mad he's killing them a lot.
Many players will be like I've killed Bruv, Starfox, Violator, Krupnski, 2cmex ect ect ect and think they are good because they got a kill on them or think that those top pilots aren't good because they consider themselves bad at Aces High.....what they don't tell you is that they were the 3rd one in, or they HOed them, or it was like a Spit 16 vs 109G2, or they had light years of alt on them....This game is easy for a scrub to kill a top stick. Heck if I know the general area of say Bruv and the plane he is flying I could just up an LA7 and grab 5 K above him....Bruv is a great stick and I bet he kills me a certain number out of 100 from a disadvantage like that but I'm good enough at BnZ and E fighting to insure I'm winning most fights from above in planes like LAs, Spits, F4Us, Dora, ect ect ect...not saying I'm great, just saying it's not hard to do...also if you can't beat him from an advantage just wait until another friendly comes in like literally easy for the bottom of the bucket gamer in this game to kill the best...more so then any other games except those that have a lot of R&G
Fess probably will not admit to this but him and Starfox came to DA where a big group was flying, I switched to low numbers side...StarFox got within icon range of me bailed and switch making it like 5 v 2 in an informal 1v1 area...thats no fun for the side he switched to because now there is only 2 people to shoot at(And of course he was flying an LA7 and HOing probably trying to get a rise) so I left. Next time I went to DA (Krup can attest to this) was on the DA night...there was 12 on 2 sides and none on one side, thats how the DA boys wanted it but I noticed a few had switched so I wanted to be on the low numbers side too so more red guys....again Starfox comes within vox range and bails out immediately goes other side and comes straight for my country....Can't prove this by film but he is specifically targeting people, coincidence becomes fact when it happens all the time.
end of rant, will probably get ruled but yea just gets old dealing with that when I'm already dealing with a game I am busy fighting puffy ack, killing troop strats or searching for M3s just to spawn bigger fights.....
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: bustr on September 26, 2016, 03:37:30 PM
So what, I used to fly as a Krabby on Kill Krabby nights in the DA with Krabby. It was usually 6 or 12 vs two. Meh.....
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: DmonSlyr on September 26, 2016, 03:48:38 PM
Well, I would hope someone who has spent 152 hours and 864 sorties this month, would know how to play AH3 pretty well. I've ran into him a couple of times and do see a lot of the same tendencies that skyyr used with E retention and AH flight understanding of planes, so based on my experience and the amount of time he's played, I'd say it's definitely skyyr.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: JunkyII on September 26, 2016, 04:09:38 PM
So what, I used to fly as a Krabby on Kill Krabby nights in the DA with Krabby. It was usually 6 or 12 vs two. Meh.....
First, sarcasm on your part. Second, different caliber of sticks aka Starfox is better than you or any of the other guys in that event. 3rd WAY TO BE A HYPOCRITE to your own sqauddie :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: puller on September 26, 2016, 04:17:50 PM
Skyyrfox changed his name the other day and consistently found where me and silent were fighting (when I wasnt hunting the MYTHICAL skyyr :noid) I told him several times of his BS...so I upped a tempy...waited until he was enagaged with silent...swooped in at 450 and took his wing off...he proceeded to fall 6000 feet...straight down...missing a wing...silent followed him down as I stood off at alt waiting...his plane hits the ground and the icon disappears...I am awarded no kill...I have the film if anyone doesn't believe me...next sortie I was promptly dispatched by this MYTHICAL pilot again after being 2.5k above him going 330 in a spit pull vert...he split esses up and follows me closing the entire time in his spit16 and never stalling...his nose never bobbled
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Vudak on September 26, 2016, 04:22:59 PM
I just get a kick out of all of you getting so worked up by him. He says "nice job guys" and people conclude he's saying "you couldn't do it without help." He says "you're getting better," and that drives people nuts too hehe.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Wiley on September 26, 2016, 04:35:56 PM
I just get a kick out of all of you getting so worked up by him. He says "nice job guys" and people conclude he's saying "you couldn't do it without help." He says "you're getting better," and that drives people nuts too hehe.
Well, honestly they're probably not wrong.
But the people who are the best at pushing peoples' buttons cause the people to do it themselves. Another truly excellent example is Cybro. So much paranoia, so little effort. It's kind of fascinating to behold.
Wiley.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: JunkyII on September 26, 2016, 04:51:50 PM
I just get a kick out of all of you getting so worked up by him. He says "nice job guys" and people conclude he's saying "you couldn't do it without help." He says "you're getting better," and that drives people nuts too hehe.
Those comments don't bother me, he poked at me one day about flying the G2 when Sawzaw was getting uppity with me...Saw claimed I was in an ez mode ride (G2) when he had alt advantage in K4 and I killed him...K4 is a lot more capable bird especially with an E advantage he just got killed and was mad (which happens with everyone) but what got me was like 2 months ago Starfox was flying a TA152 with advantage and got killed by me in K4 and used the "Nice fight but K4 is suppose to win that fight" just hypocritical on Starfox's part which was what I started going at it with him about....He's a good fight, just don't like being hunted by anyone unless there's no fight at which point I'm glad to post my location on 200 so those loolong for a fight will come to me.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Vudak on September 26, 2016, 05:05:04 PM
Yeah, well, you know... If you fly a Spit, zeke, or 109F and turn, you're in an easy mode plane. If you fly a 51, D9, or 109K4 and climb you're in an easy mode plane... If you fly a 38 or 47 and grab, you're in an easy mode plane... If you are taxiing in a Corsair, easy mode... Crazy how most of the planeset can be easy mode.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: bustr on September 26, 2016, 05:58:28 PM
If starfox is a skyyr shade, you are making his day any time you complain on 200. If he is a surrogate of skyyr playing a massive troll on the community. You are making skyyr's day complaining on 200 because his surrogate is letting him watch. I believe it is estes who says he flew for years with skyyr back in FA and skyyr is blessed with a AAA case of obsessive compulsion. All bad attention is making his day then.
Either ignore him and use your skillz to beat him, or ignore him and fly against other players in any airspace you have identified him in. The latter may be hard, I've been listening to players tell the same old story about that account being able to pick their plane out of crowds with a purpose even if they change rides to come back in. Like he can see their name instead of only the red airplane name. And it's not cybro passing intel.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Vudak on September 26, 2016, 06:38:41 PM
It's not that hard to tell which players are skilled in an area regardless of ride if you know what to look for and have good SA. Especially if you're routinely dueling them. I know it's Starfox, or 2cmex, or Sawzaw, or Yucca, etc. Long before I see who shot me down.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Shuffler on September 26, 2016, 07:01:34 PM
I do not really care to waste much time talking about anyone who has to fly a spit alot.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Vulcan on September 26, 2016, 10:49:01 PM
Many players will be like I've killed Bruv, Starfox, Violator, Krupnski, 2cmex ect ect ect and think they are good because they got a kill on them or think that those top pilots aren't good because they consider themselves bad at Aces High.....what they don't tell you is that they were the 3rd one in, or they HOed them,
What a load of rubbish, Starfox and 2cmex HO actively all the time (well maybe not when they see a Yak 9T coming), and they are quite happy to gang as well (in fact there is one pony pilot usually in that bunch who will hang back until it is 2:1 minimum and won't even engage, even if he has advantage). So yeah ummmm... so a HO kill on them is just as good as they give, likewise a gangbang. Starfox likes to milk overshoots. His real skill appears to be in aiming, he rarely misses. He also sticks mostly to late late war (usually a Dora or 152), like sawzaw.
2cmex is a good stick, and you see him in a range of aircraft. But he happily HOs.
I just HO them back, sometimes with a bigger gun :devil
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Vudak on September 26, 2016, 11:22:13 PM
I think Junky's point is that if one were to go to the DA with them, or run into them alone, they'd mop the floor with most in the MA fairly consistently.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Invictus84 on September 26, 2016, 11:48:27 PM
Yeah, well, you know... If you fly a Spit, zeke, or 109F and turn, you're in an easy mode plane. If you fly a 51, D9, or 109K4 and climb you're in an easy mode plane... If you fly a 38 or 47 and grab, you're in an easy mode plane... If you are taxiing in a Corsair, easy mode... Crazy how most of the planeset can be easy mode.
If you fly the 410 and die alot, you are in an easy mode plane! :old:
:D
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: waystin2 on September 27, 2016, 07:21:22 AM
What a load of rubbish, Starfox and 2cmex HO actively all the time (well maybe not when they see a Yak 9T coming), and they are quite happy to gang as well (in fact there is one pony pilot usually in that bunch who will hang back until it is 2:1 minimum and won't even engage, even if he has advantage). So yeah ummmm... so a HO kill on them is just as good as they give, likewise a gangbang. Starfox likes to milk overshoots. His real skill appears to be in aiming, he rarely misses. He also sticks mostly to late late war (usually a Dora or 152), like sawzaw.
2cmex is a good stick, and you see him in a range of aircraft. But he happily HOs.
I just HO them back, sometimes with a bigger gun :devil
Like Vudak said...Trust me I give ANYONE crap about HO's, ganging, picking ect ect...If Hitech HOed me I'd start going off on 200...but what I was getting at is there is a difference between out flying your opponent and killing them...a lot will disagree with that comment but it's a matter of opinion...if I get HOed I wasn't out flown...I got jousted and I didn't know we were playing Maryland state sport. :aok
Yeah, well, you know... If you fly a Spit, zeke, or 109F and turn, you're in an easy mode plane. If you fly a 51, D9, or 109K4 and climb you're in an easy mode plane... If you fly a 38 or 47 and grab, you're in an easy mode plane... If you are taxiing in a Corsair, easy mode... Crazy how most of the planeset can be easy mode.
It's all in how you fly it...but I will say that some aircraft can be flown easy mode easier then others because of certain characteristics. High Dive speed, Good Guns ect ect
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Invictus84 on September 27, 2016, 11:27:04 AM
Like Vudak said...Trust me I give ANYONE crap about HO's, ganging, picking ect ect...If Hitech HOed me I'd start going off on 200...but what I was getting at is there is a difference between out flying your opponent and killing them...a lot will disagree with that comment but it's a matter of opinion...if I get HOed I wasn't out flown...I got jousted and I didn't know we were playing Maryland state sport. :aok It's all in how you fly it...but I will say that some aircraft can be flown easy mode easier then others because of certain characteristics. High Dive speed, Good Guns ect ect
Everything is fair game outside a dueling arena. You, and only you, are ultimately responsible for your virtual life. Everything else is whining. Get over it and get in a new plane. They are free.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Vudak on September 27, 2016, 11:57:57 AM
Everything is fair game outside a dueling arena. You, and only you, are ultimately responsible for your virtual life. Everything else is whining. Get over it and get in a new plane. They are free.
No dispute, but in my book, I care very much about what you can do when you are disadvantaged and very little about how well you can minimize the frequency of those situations.
I think this is what junky means regarding the difference between being out flown and simply killed. I can kill any of the top sticks in the game. I can't out fly them.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: hitech on September 27, 2016, 12:02:09 PM
Like Vudak said...Trust me I give ANYONE crap about HO's, ganging, picking ect ect...If Hitech HOed me I'd start going off on 200...but what I was getting at is there is a difference between out flying your opponent and killing them...a lot will disagree with that comment but it's a matter of opinion...if I get HOed I wasn't out flown...I got jousted and I didn't know we were playing Maryland state sport. :aok It's all in how you fly it...but I will say that some aircraft can be flown easy mode easier then others because of certain characteristics. High Dive speed, Good Guns ect ect
Unless a special agreement such as dueling exists.
I'll head on every time it is to my advantage to do so.
HiTech
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Vudak on September 27, 2016, 12:07:57 PM
Unless a special agreement such as dueling exists.
I'll head on every time it is to my advantage to do so.
HiTech
Since coming back I've found that not restricting yourself with a set of extra rules makes the game much more enjoyable and your expectations much more reasonable.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Wiley on September 27, 2016, 12:40:47 PM
Since coming back I've found that not restricting yourself with a set of extra rules makes the game much more enjoyable and your expectations much more reasonable.
I know it makes me a lot calmer. I have the list of things I won't do, mostly because I don't find them fun, but I expect everyone that's red to do everything in their power to kill me. If there are 5 red guys in position to attack me, I'm expecting 5 red guys to attack me. I'm not expecting them to each engage me in single combat.
It makes for a lot less disappointment.
Wiley.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: DmonSlyr on September 27, 2016, 12:54:36 PM
I find that avoiding the HO gives you the advantage 9 x out of 10. If you both merge and pull and emmilman into the HO, that's a very risky situation. I often try to avoid it so I can gain a better position, but if you are going so slow that you cannot avoid, it's a 50/50 chance. Normally, if I see they have guns firing, If they are shooting, I'll shoot back. If not I know they are worthy, and will continue to fight on. A lot of times the HO can be avoided and you can create much better maneuvers from avoiding it, but most people don't know that much about air combat in AH to dance around it.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Kanth on September 27, 2016, 12:57:24 PM
Between that and not worrying about what everyone else is doing. It's quite enjoyable. :D
Since coming back I've found that not restricting yourself with a set of extra rules makes the game much more enjoyable and your expectations much more reasonable.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: JunkyII on September 27, 2016, 01:17:33 PM
Everything is fair game outside a dueling arena. You, and only you, are ultimately responsible for your virtual life. Everything else is whining. Get over it and get in a new plane. They are free.
Have you seen my score...I don't care about a death...probably half of them this tour was while I was trying to get off the runway...other half shortly after that. It doesn't matter if I die or club a baby seal who was HOing, I'll tell them they shouldn't HO all the same. This video comes to mind whenever the discussion of HO comes up
I don't HO because I think it leaves the game up to one aspect...shooting...that's it nothing more. If I want to play a shooter game I'll play CSGO.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: FLS on September 27, 2016, 01:48:58 PM
The head on shot doesn't just test shooting, it also tests ducking.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Wiley on September 27, 2016, 02:29:24 PM
Have you seen my score...I don't care about a death...probably half of them this tour was while I was trying to get off the runway...other half shortly after that. It doesn't matter if I die or club a baby seal who was HOing, I'll tell them they shouldn't HO all the same. This video comes to mind whenever the discussion of HO comes up
I don't HO because I think it leaves the game up to one aspect...shooting...that's it nothing more. If I want to play a shooter game I'll play CSGO.
You choose not to take certain shots. That's completely up to you and more power to you. Just don't expect the same from others in a combat arena or server. The same goes for 'ganging'. Mutual support of a fellow countryman should be expected from the opposition.
You choose not to take certain shots. That's completely up to you and more power to you. Just don't expect the same from others in a combat arena or server. The same goes for 'ganging'. Mutual support of a fellow countryman should be expected from the opposition.
Or climbing over and gaining positional advantage. But yes, you are correct. :aok
trust me I understand it's part of the game...that's why i dont just sit there and take it (I manuever in order to avoid them and merge)....still tell them they shouldn't anyway...one because lame and two because it's not smart...again IMO
trust me I understand it's part of the game...that's why i dont just sit there and take it (I manuever in order to avoid them and merge)....still tell them they shouldn't anyway...one because lame and two because it's not smart...again IMO P38 = easy mode :aok
:salute
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Dobs on September 28, 2016, 09:14:54 AM
The way I look at it...HO's are like playing first person shooters and you are not allowed to shoot unless you are in the other persons scope....just doesn't make sense.
But I do HO...when outnumbered, and someone willingly flies into my gunsight...I shoot:) When we have numbers and one of us Ho's..well..Darwinism at work IMO. Why give them a shot they should never have.
There are so many good shooters in this game, I try not to make it easier on them.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Invictus84 on September 28, 2016, 10:30:28 AM
I don't mind when someone tries to HO me. It's an opportunity to turn the tables in the fight. Quick last second climb over and you are in the advantage.
I don't mind when someone tries to HO me. It's an opportunity to turn the tables in the fight. Quick last second climb over and you are in the advantage.
It's a bit like bullfighting.
But just like bullfighting, bad things happen if you mistime your move.
Ouch. :uhoh
Which ever way you look at it Fulcrum it's toejam gameplay.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: nrshida on September 28, 2016, 01:10:56 PM
I don't get how you guys who've been playing forever still get hit by HO'S enough for it to still bother you.
AH is my first flight sim and where I quickly learned that HOing was 'bad'. It was a cultural aspiration I think back when quality was at least an equal consideration to the result.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: FLS on September 28, 2016, 01:33:17 PM
Skyyrfox changed his name the other day and consistently found where me and silent were fighting (when I wasnt hunting the MYTHICAL skyyr :noid) I told him several times of his BS...so I upped a tempy...waited until he was enagaged with silent...swooped in at 450 and took his wing off...he proceeded to fall 6000 feet...straight down...missing a wing...silent followed him down as I stood off at alt waiting...his plane hits the ground and the icon disappears...I am awarded no kill...I have the film if anyone doesn't believe me...next sortie I was promptly dispatched by this MYTHICAL pilot again after being 2.5k above him going 330 in a spit pull vert...he split esses up and follows me closing the entire time in his spit16 and never stalling...his nose never bobbled
Where did I heard that before?! :headscratch: LilMak! :D You have to film stuff like that or did not happen :) What is interesting to me is he is not constant in his performance. Few flights he will miss easy shots and get outflown, far away from his usual lazer shooting and never running out of E flying .I do have a few example of StarFox repeatidly zeroing on me as I travel around the map, cases of a single 20mm hit at 500y ripping my P47 whole tail off and a recorded event of him lowering the gear at 210MPH in a 109. Could all be internet lag. But I enjoy fighting him because it forces me to try to be better in my flying and understanding some of the stuff he does. Off course we are talking about someone that spends his whole life in the game, he is bound to shoot/fly light years ahead of the regular joe like myself. :old:
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Lazerr on September 28, 2016, 02:13:51 PM
Where did I heard that before?! :headscratch: LilMak! :D You have to film stuff like that or did not happen :) What is interesting to me is he is not constant in his performance. Few flights he will miss easy shots and get outflown, far away from his usual lazer shooting and never running out of E flying .I do have a few example of StarFox repeatidly zeroing on me as I travel around the map, cases of a single 20mm hit at 500y ripping my P47 whole tail off and a recorded event of him lowering the gear at 210MPH in a 109. Could all be internet lag. But I enjoy fighting him because it forces me to try to be better in my flying and understanding some of the stuff he does. Off course we are talking about someone that spends his whole life in the game, he is bound to shoot/fly light years ahead of the regular joe like myself. :old:
I said the same thing on 200 when HT was on.. he let me know I was "full of crap".
:D
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Lazerr on September 28, 2016, 02:17:11 PM
I was also told by one of his ex squaddies on range these exact words.
" I dont know why you are so hard on the guy, he only hunted you because you put up a good fight" - scrappy
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Dobs on September 28, 2016, 02:31:02 PM
And then you have just good old fashioned lag, lag switch or stick stirring....take your pick...
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: -ammo- on September 28, 2016, 02:39:11 PM
Teaching merges and lag pursuit works better. :aok
I have gave some people some pointers especially after they couldn't figure out how I or others were killing them in KOTH...Anyone is free to ask me for help and I've found giving pointers on 200 or via PM comes off as sounding cocky. I told Molten from Anti horde that he needed to be more aggressive in his attacks and relax on the hi yo yos because I would end up getting equalized with him...he took it at first as me having an ego then later it happened...He dumped E in a high yo yo when I was hiding mine and I climb up and initiated a rolling scissors which I won...if he were more aggressive and less passive I couldn't have held onto my E to climb up...But I think he understands where I was coming from. But like I said, some take tips via 200 or PM as having an ego....so I leave it up to them, they can ask for help which I've never turned anyone away.
I got a film today of that situation I explained above and will be making a Youtube video out of it explaining those points...but I need to find a better film of me fighting from the alt advantage first so I can compare. Unfortunately I don't normally turn the film viewer on when I'm fighting from alt advantage.
I said the same thing on 200 when HT was on.. he let me know I was "full of crap".
:D
Lazer, Frenchy, lil mak, Trogdor, Squat, Puller, Silent02, Sawzaw, Simon, JunkyII....that's 10 people I know about who seem to be saying the same thing about one particular player....It's just coincidence :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: JunkyII on September 28, 2016, 02:51:35 PM
..who ever heard of a plane being able to pull the nose up with the engine off...
Bob Hoover.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: bustr on September 28, 2016, 03:59:57 PM
What I think about the appearance of similarities of the two people being talked about in this post are a private matter.
What I think in public is I don't want to see you gentlemen getting officially nailed by Hitech for trying to force him as a "mob" to do something to a "paying customer" because you are demanding him punished.
You might infer we have been given two warnings about this subject so far. 1. Hitech let us know skyyr has not been forgiven and that the player in question is not skyyr. 2. Hitech has replied on ch200, the most public manner possible for our game, that Lazer was full of crap for venturing irregularities in that player's game play.
Something to think about and to test if you want concerning films. When a film is recorded it can only record some limited information about your PC because it has access by physically running on your PC. That info is not passed from your targeted con about his own PC to your film to pickup for Hitech to debug. With that in mind, how can you tell by watching your playback if the player you are shooting at flipping and flopping is suffering from any of the following conditions?
1. - One of the routers his connection runs through to the game is having constant intermittent issues which look exactly like an on\off switch making him fly normally then suddenly erratically back and forth. 2. - His stupid sister accidentally started a download of War and Peace, then took a long bath, and his connection to his home router is WiFi. 3. - His primary connection to the internet is a satellite modem and he only has a WiFi connection from his PC to his modem. 4. - He has a batch file with PING routerWANPORTaddress -t on a laptop in the chair next to him hammering his own home router with a DOS storm.
You have no way of knowing any of the above by filming that player's erratic flight behavior. And the player in question like any of you may have friends in your country willing to PM info about your plane to help him find you. Or like any of you can do, keep a 2 week account or pay for a second account on a laptop with the game running, and a shade sitting in your tower when you take off. That hover the mouse over a tiny fighter and it shows a name. Or .wingman and look for a tiny white fighter.
I don't want to see you gentlemen getting nailed because your only evidence for Hitech about a player you think is finessing the game is anecdotal. Now if it's a possible flip flopping flutter float bug, at least one film shows it very graphically.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: The Fugitive on September 28, 2016, 04:02:57 PM
I don't get how you guys who've been playing forever still get hit by HO'S enough for it to still bother you.
I don't get hit that often, but it is pretty obvious that they are pulling for a HO. At that point I know I'll be dodging HOs.... and pickers while I work for a shot, and sometimes that takes a long time for me. :D More often than not it doesn't end well for me.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Dobs on September 28, 2016, 04:23:38 PM
Just to be clear...that jug was NOT starfox. He was not on when I filmed this.... and the fact that I lived through two attempted gun passes before getting to his six confirmed it:)
Anyhow, smooth as glass until I start shooting and then the funky chicken starts. Besides the fact that I hit him at least 7 times in there....that is not normal "lag"....whoever it was.
I was actually trying to get the conversation back on to the topic title!
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: JunkyII on September 28, 2016, 04:36:56 PM
I've personally never had a problem shooting at Starfox when I do get guns on him, that's not my issue with him...
Dobs, that flip thing isn't just an AH3 thing it was in AH2 as well....GHI used to look the same way in his Il2 to me prior to it getting F3 mode nerfed.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Vulcan on September 28, 2016, 05:21:33 PM
Skyyrfox changed his name the other day and consistently found where me and silent were fighting (when I wasnt hunting the MYTHICAL skyyr :noid) I told him several times of his BS...so I upped a tempy...waited until he was enagaged with silent...swooped in at 450 and took his wing off...he proceeded to fall 6000 feet...straight down...missing a wing...silent followed him down as I stood off at alt waiting...
I have done this myself, lost a wing or part of a wing or a tail, plane goes into a kind of flat spin, sometimes very slowly - hits the side of hill and slides down - and I get a ditch. I'm sure the guy watching must be swearing through his teeth at it.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: waystin2 on September 28, 2016, 06:50:19 PM
OMG we have some seriously paranoid people here.... :noid (http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/5/4739/clock_cat.gif)
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Invictus84 on September 28, 2016, 10:27:57 PM
Which ever way you look at it Fulcrum it's toejam gameplay.
How often do you get front quarter shots on BoS? WT? Here? Has the continual posting and endless debates about Ho shots changed anything?
I'm not defending it. I am just saying HO happen and always will.
Be ready and expect HOs, use it to gain advantage and then demonstrate to the nimrod why HOs are a bad idea. Many people who continually HO are new or have never learned good tactics. After you beat the tar out of the guy, message him and explain (nicely) how you beat him. Maybe offer to show him a few things if he has the time.
If you mistime your move and lose, swallow the pride, get over it and get a new plane. Messaging the guy telling him he is a loser for HOing only makes the one who sent the message look like a whiney <rhymes with pitch>.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Invictus84 on September 28, 2016, 10:30:11 PM
You might infer we have been given two warnings about this subject so far. 1. Hitech let us know skyyr has not been forgiven and that the player in question is not skyyr.
Wise words my man, but I'm not talking trash about the guy, I actually enjoy StarFox.
Hitech has his reasons but he his not the one that day after day for 2 years-ish dogfighted Skyyr nor has been tangling with StarFox for the last few months. I have been playing since Beta and never ever did someone brand new showed up and mastered the game right away to Skyyr's level. As stated by others, the flying styles of some can be picked up by veterans. It's not only the flying style, it's the similarity of the tactics used, the planes, the extensive number of hours, the engine cutting, the gunnery accuracy, the Ch200 'debating' and the "tricks". Furthermore, and I will not go in the specifics, stuffs happened with Lonewolf in the DA then StarFox in the MA that truly seemed like an attempt to settle old scores from Skyyr.
If I was the only one to be convinced of it ... so be it ... but I am joined by numerous experienced veterans. I don't buy it. :)
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: nrshida on September 29, 2016, 12:55:15 AM
1. Hitech let us know skyyr has not been forgiven and that the player in question is not skyyr.
As far as I'm aware the ony things that can really identify a person online is their MAC address, their IP and their cradit card details. All of which can be faked or substituted.
I'd put more faith in ACM-heads identifying flying. It is close to a fingerprint although some can do reasonably convincing impressions of others.
I would propose that a better approach would be in-game countermeasures to stop consistent griefing. That would stop the pitchfork mobbing and raise confidence that it was being officially addressed. A notification you've been dot wing-manned (with report feature) for instance, or the option to disable it, or a counter for constant player searches per hour but some forum members immediately suggest paranoia because they haven't experienced it and HTC doesn't seem to recognise it's a persistent problem <shrug>.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Lazerr on September 29, 2016, 01:03:11 AM
Back on topic.. i saw the flippy plane tonight.. it almost looks like when someone pulls too hard, they stall but the plane literally just spirals in the air.
This was an a6m i saw do it.. looks like the game is having a hard time displaying it.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Dobs on September 29, 2016, 09:26:09 AM
So, Lazur, the issue is "Plane goes into accelerated stall with huge gyrations about all axis, why does it have flying airspeed at the end?" and not end up like an arrow at its Apex? Nose falling down to regain airspeed? Or enter a spin? Hell if you use rudder with flaps down you spin in here.... How can an aircraft do the funky chicken and come out flying at your 6?
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: JunkyII on September 29, 2016, 09:31:15 AM
So, Lazur, the issue is "Plane goes into accelerated stall with huge gyrations about all axis, why does it have flying airspeed at the end?" and not end up like an arrow at its Apex? Nose falling down to regain airspeed? Or enter a spin? Hell if you use rudder with flaps down you spin in here.... How can an aircraft do the funky chicken and come out flying at your 6?
Back on topic.. i saw the flippy plane tonight.. it almost looks like when someone pulls too hard, they stall but the plane literally just spirals in the air.
This was an a6m i saw do it.. looks like the game is having a hard time displaying it.
I don't think the plane is stalling at all I think it's an input on the stick that is coming out like an insane snap roll on our end because the game isn't rendering it properly.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: FLS on September 29, 2016, 09:32:53 AM
So, Lazur, the issue is "Plane goes into accelerated stall with huge gyrations about all axis, why does it have flying airspeed at the end?" and not end up like an arrow at its Apex? Nose falling down to regain airspeed? Or enter a spin? Hell if you use rudder with flaps down you spin in here.... How can an aircraft do the funky chicken and come out flying at your 6?
How much speed should it lose? You seem to think it should always end up below stall speed. Why is that?
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Lazerr on September 29, 2016, 09:38:26 AM
Not sure, but it sure looks gamey. The zeke i saw do it actually fell out of the sky after the spin.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: katanaso on September 29, 2016, 09:46:44 AM
How much speed should it lose? You seem to think it should always end up below stall speed. Why is that?
FLS, the best comparison I can give is how a few people learned to spin-turn the 190 back in AW. Get on their 6, they could spin-turn 180 degrees and fly away where you'd have to do an actual reversal (immelman, yo-yo, split-s, flat turn).
Certain folks seem to have this flippy/spin thing down here where it's nearly impossible to hit them, then they can recover in control and be on your 6 with minimal loss of speed.
It's 'gamey'...in a game. Profound, I know! :D
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Hungry on September 29, 2016, 09:52:33 AM
I've seen this as well in my case I thought I made hit, the plane was spinning in a 3/4 - 1/4 motion fast then slow. I thought I took parts off but just didn't see the parts fly so I backed off. The plane spun like this from about 5k down, when I didn't see the kill message I came back around. It literally looked like he bounced off the deck came straight at me and face shot me.
Came at me full speed and maneuvering, dam I wish I had the film
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Dobs on September 29, 2016, 09:55:21 AM
How much speed should it lose? You seem to think it should always end up below stall speed. Why is that?
Well FLS..define accelerated stall that leads to wild gyrations about the pitch and roll axis and you tell me. It seems you think ZERO. To me the spiking of AOA leads to HUGE increases of induced drag, the gyrations from streamline mean HUGE increases in Parasitic drag... Go back to your airshow videos and let me know how many tumbles end up with him just flying straight out of it, or with him nose low to recover flying airspeed.
If you are saying he isn't really doing it, but the game shows him doing it....then that is another big issue.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: FLS on September 29, 2016, 10:02:52 AM
FLS, the best comparison I can give is how a few people learned to spin-turn the 190 back in AW. Get on their 6, they could spin-turn 180 degrees and fly away where you'd have to do an actual reversal (immelman, yo-yo, split-s, flat turn).
Certain folks seem to have this flippy/spin thing down here where it's nearly impossible to hit them, then they can recover in control and be on your 6 with minimal loss of speed.
It's 'gamey'...in a game. Profound, I know! :D
If you're talking about a snap roll that is the normal result of stalling one wing. AW had a simple flight model which the spin turn exploited. There is no comparison. What was the "minimal loss of speed" and what should it have been? You can criticize the damage model in a high speed snap roll but nobody has made a case for a problem with the flight model.
Well FLS..define accelerated stall that leads to wild gyrations about the pitch and roll axis and you tell me. It seems you think ZERO. To me the spiking of AOA leads to HUGE increases of induced drag, the gyrations from streamline mean HUGE increases in Parasitic drag... Go back to your airshow videos and let me know how many tumbles end up with him just flying straight out of it, or with him nose low to recover flying airspeed.
If you are saying he isn't really doing it, but the game shows him doing it....then that is another big issue.
Show me where I said or implied no loss of speed. You seem to have a problem understanding that you can lose speed and still fly. Caps aren't data.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: JunkyII on September 29, 2016, 10:06:37 AM
If you're talking about a snap roll that is the normal result of stalling one wing. AW had a simple flight model which the spin turn exploited. There is no comparison. What was the "minimal loss of speed" and what should it have been? You can criticize the damage model in a high speed snap roll but nobody has made a case for a problem with the flight model.
Show me where I said or implied no loss of speed. You seem to have a problem understanding that you can lose speed and still fly. Caps aren't data.
First, you can't give an exact amount of speed a plane should lose but a plane flying level at nearly the same or higher speed vs a plane that just did this sort of maneuver should be a very noticeable difference...right now the plane doing the maneuver can recover, keep up and get guns on the other plane.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: FLS on September 29, 2016, 10:11:14 AM
It's a simple matter to snap roll a few times and note your entry and exit speeds. Even easier if you film it.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Wiley on September 29, 2016, 10:14:05 AM
First, you can't give an exact amount of speed a plane should lose but a plane flying level at nearly the same or higher speed vs a plane that just did this sort of maneuver should be a very noticeable difference...right now the plane doing the maneuver can recover, keep up and get guns on the other plane.
What would you estimate the speed difference would be?
Wiley.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: JunkyII on September 29, 2016, 10:17:49 AM
What would you estimate the speed difference would be?
Wiley.
I can't give a good estimate but enough for the plane who didn't lose E in an eradicate maneuver to at least climb away from guns....as of now it doesn't look like a challenge for the other plane to keep up even when the other goes directly vertical.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: katanaso on September 29, 2016, 10:23:17 AM
If you're talking about a snap roll that is the normal result of stalling one wing. AW had a simple flight model which the spin turn exploited. There is no comparison. What was the "minimal loss of speed" and what should it have been? You can criticize the damage model in a high speed snap roll but nobody has made a case for a problem with the flight model.
Of course there's a comparison. Any two things can be compared. Here it's comparing how people learned to take advantage of something in each game. In AW, it was taking advantage of the simple flight model. In AH3, it's taking advantage of the 'high speed snap roll' model.
However, it's not just a single snap roll either. It's multiple, typically in both directions, then a controlled exit. If there was smoke, it would be the most awesome display of airshow-quality acrobatic Death Blossom flying. :)
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Dobs on September 29, 2016, 10:27:56 AM
It's a simple matter to snap roll a few times and note your entry and exit speeds. Even easier if you film it.
Why don't you do that for us....
So far I've seen utter denial that there is a problem with planes tumbling and then just magically flying up your 6 as you go vertical. Were you Capt of the Debate team growing up? Can you not admit that a plane that tumbles is no longer aerodynamic and thus should be pissing away energy at a prodigious rate? Instead you want a video and quantified data vs looking at the physics of it...
Of course there's a comparison. Any two things can be compared. Here it's comparing how people learned to take advantage of something in each game. In AW, it was taking advantage of the simple flight model. In AH3, it's taking advantage of the 'high speed snap roll' model.
However, it's not just a single snap roll either. It's multiple, typically in both directions, then a controlled exit. If there was smoke, it would be the most awesome display of airshow-quality acrobatic Death Blossom flying. :)
Did someone say DEATH BLOSSOM? :D (https://supercultshow.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/qn9po3m.gif)
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: katanaso on September 29, 2016, 10:35:28 AM
Of course there's a comparison. Any two things can be compared. Here it's comparing how people learned to take advantage of something in each game. In AW, it was taking advantage of the simple flight model. In AH3, it's taking advantage of the 'high speed snap roll' model.
However, it's not just a single snap roll either. It's multiple, typically in both directions, then a controlled exit. If there was smoke, it would be the most awesome display of airshow-quality acrobatic Death Blossom flying. :)
There is no 'high speed snap roll model', there is only the flight model. Did you watch my videos? :D
I'd rather the people posting without data learn the benefits of testing for themselves. Nobody is looking at how much speed is lost in game or can say how much speed should be lost.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Hungry on September 29, 2016, 10:44:21 AM
There is no 'high speed snap roll model', there is only the flight model. Did you watch my videos? :D
I'd rather the people posting without data learn the benefits of testing for themselves. Nobody is looking at how much speed is lost in game or can say how much speed should be lost.
What you're basically saying then is this "snap roll" is easily reproducible for testing and therefore useable in game no different than the AW 190
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Wiley on September 29, 2016, 10:45:49 AM
So far I've seen utter denial that there is a problem with planes tumbling and then just magically flying up your 6 as you go vertical. Were you Capt of the Debate team growing up? Can you not admit that a plane that tumbles is no longer aerodynamic and thus should be pissing away energy at a prodigious rate? Instead you want a video and quantified data vs looking at the physics of it...
I'm not saying FLS is right, but respectfully, if you want something changed to be accurate, you need to show HT what exactly is wrong.
You're saying something is wrong. That something must be quantifiable. To be able to say it's wrong, you should be able to say, "Doing this set of maneuvers and coming out at the end should have result x, but instead it's having result y.
You guys haven't defined results x or y as anything other than "it shouldn't have that much speed at that point". How much speed should it have then?
Wiley.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: katanaso on September 29, 2016, 10:45:57 AM
There is no 'high speed snap roll model', there is only the flight model. Did you watch my videos? :D
I'd rather the people posting without data learn the benefits of testing for themselves. Nobody is looking at how much speed is lost in game or can say how much speed should be lost.
Oh, you're nitpicking now. I see what you did. lol Stop it! Yes, there's not a specific 'high speed snap roll' model that differs from the 'flight model'.
How about this: they've learned to take advantage of the nuances of the 'high speed snap roll' (initially, your phrase) within the AH3 flight model. Better? :D
I can't watch videos at the moment. I'm tying this stuff between emails and meetings.
If I have time tonight, I'll look at a film from last night to see the entry/exit speed of the plane doing it. I'll also try myself, but I've never really tried it other than in a 38. When I spin or snap roll, I usually end up in front of the bad guy more so than normal. :)
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: katanaso on September 29, 2016, 10:46:43 AM
Sorry, double posted by accident.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: katanaso on September 29, 2016, 10:51:58 AM
Oh, you're nitpicking now. I see what you did. lol Stop it! Yes, there's not a specific 'high speed snap roll' model that differs from the 'flight model'.
How about this: they've learned to take advantage of the nuances of the 'high speed snap roll' (initially, your phrase) within the AH3 flight model. Better? :D
I can't watch videos at the moment. I'm tying this stuff between emails and meetings.
If I have time tonight, I'll look at a film from last night to see the entry/exit speed of the plane doing it. I'll also try myself, but I've never really tried it other than in a 38. When I spin or snap roll, I usually end up in front of the bad guy more so than normal. :)
Consider the difference between exploiting the model and exploiting the physics of flight. :D
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: katanaso on September 29, 2016, 10:58:28 AM
Consider the difference between exploiting the model and exploiting the physics of flight. :D
I understand. See post above. Controlling it so well. That's the flight model. 'Exploit' sounds bad though, almost accusatory, even though it's not meant as such. :)
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Hungry on September 29, 2016, 11:00:25 AM
They're not really the same, but I was comparing the two as means that persons learned to take advantage of things.
Inducing a snap roll is easy -- controlling it, and exiting where I want, is not easy, at least for me.
I understand and Wiley's right, data, show them the data, was just trying to make the point that yes they are comparable if in AH3 it is usable and easily repeatable for use as an advantage. Wish I could remember the name of the pilot in AWFR that used it somebody's son his name escapes me started with a W ?
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Dobs on September 29, 2016, 11:02:30 AM
So concepts of physics are not allowed here....got it.
Well FLS, tell me what the airspeed is supposed to be from a " departing controlled flight" aircraft and I'll test to that. How does that sound?
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: katanaso on September 29, 2016, 11:06:55 AM
I understand and Wiley's right, data, show them the data, was just trying to make the point that yes they are comparable if in AH3 it is usable and easily repeatable for use as an advantage. Wish I could remember the name of the pilot in AWFR that used it somebody's son his name escapes me started with a W ?
I can't remember his name either. It was Soup's/4510 son, as I recall. I'm sure the other older guys know it.
You're absolutely right though, as far as showing HTC data.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Lazerr on September 29, 2016, 11:22:47 AM
There is no 'high speed snap roll model', there is only the flight model. Did you watch my videos? :D
I'd rather the people posting without data learn the benefits of testing for themselves. Nobody is looking at how much speed is lost in game or can say how much speed should be lost.
I would try to pull the move off, but on my end it looks impossible. I wouldnt even know where to start.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Drane on September 29, 2016, 11:28:39 AM
So concepts of physics are not allowed here....got it.
film deleted
Well FLS, tell me what the airspeed is supposed to be from a " departing controlled flight" aircraft and I'll test to that. How does that sound?
Dobs set AH to auto film and save any films that you saw the flippy thing and post it along with link to your screen capture film for HiTech. If the ahf film is too big you can edit it to be shorter.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Dawger on September 29, 2016, 12:02:31 PM
A snap roll is an accelerated stall with autorotation induced by application of full rudder. Essentially a one turn spin on a horizontal plane.
The aircraft is stalled and requires a brief period unloaded or nearly so to recover.
Many WWII era fighters were prohibited from snap rolls or "flick" rolls as they are sometimes called.
They must be performed at a relatively low airspeed for the required stall to happen quickly or before breaking the wing off.
There is significant speed loss when performing them.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: hitech on September 29, 2016, 12:11:52 PM
This thread is really starting to piss me off.
I have told everyone directly do not confuse what you see some one do and the flight model. You could easy be seeing the other guy do something that is a simple bug in the net code and nothing to do with the flight model.
So people again jump in because the saw someone tumble and claim it is the flight model. If you think somethings wrong with the flight model go film yourself doing something you do not think is correct.
I stated very early DO NOT CONFUSE THE OTHER PLANE AND YOUR PLANE.
I have asked for films AH Films let me debug stuff, a video does not help me debug.
So far I have seen one, and that was nothing but a simple snap roll.
HiTech
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: LCADolby on September 29, 2016, 12:15:28 PM
I sent a film in HiTech and it was too fast to be a snap roll, I don't know of a niki snap rolling 180' in less than 0.1 of a second.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: hitech on September 29, 2016, 12:17:18 PM
I would try to pull the move off, but on my end it looks impossible. I wouldnt even know where to start.
A snap roll is caused by a loss of lift on one wing. The lift on the other wing rolls the aircraft. You can snap roll with or against the propeller rotation. Consider a 10,000 lb aircraft in a 4g turn. That's 40,000 lbs of lift, call it 20,000 lbs per wing in a simplified explanation, now you lose lift on one wing and the other wing has a 20,000 lb force rolling the aircraft. In level flight it's only a 5,000 lb force but you can still see why it's called a snap roll. If you want to maintain a snap roll you can add aileron to the roll.
To initiate a snap roll just yank the stick back, pushing and holding a rudder pedal forward will add yaw. You can push the stick forward for a negative snap roll. Moving the stick into a corner rather than straight back will increase the roll. Film and smoke or trails will help you see what's happening.
The prohibition against snap rolls in pilot manuals mentions altitude loss and possible airframe damage. That doesn't mean that an ascending snap roll with sufficient momentum will cause altitude loss but you'll certainly see a speed difference.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: LCADolby on September 29, 2016, 12:22:03 PM
Wise words my man, but I'm not talking trash about the guy, I actually enjoy StarFox.
Hitech has his reasons but he his not the one that day after day for 2 years-ish dogfighted Skyyr nor has been tangling with StarFox for the last few months. I have been playing since Beta and never ever did someone brand new showed up and mastered the game right away to Skyyr's level. As stated by others, the flying styles of some can be picked up by veterans. It's not only the flying style, it's the similarity of the tactics used, the planes, the extensive number of hours, the engine cutting, the gunnery accuracy, the Ch200 'debating' and the "tricks". Furthermore, and I will not go in the specifics, stuffs happened with Lonewolf in the DA then StarFox in the MA that truly seemed like an attempt to settle old scores from Skyyr.
If I was the only one to be convinced of it ... so be it ... but I am joined by numerous experienced veterans. I don't buy it. :)
Skyyr can't hide himself at all, his fly, antics, headhunting, shades is incomparable. Except with Fulcrum, he has had the ability to change names and set up numerous BBS account. I wonder if information has passed between these former squadmates on how to hide ID from HTC. We all know Fulcrum, Hoplite and Invictus plus others are one in the same on the BBS and game. As Shida said, everything can be hidden if you really want it to be. 10 years ago people were creating virtual machines within there own PCs to get around bans within SWAT4 of all things. Lords knows how easy it is now.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: LCADolby on September 29, 2016, 12:23:07 PM
So concepts of physics are not allowed here....got it.
Well FLS, tell me what the airspeed is supposed to be from a " departing controlled flight" aircraft and I'll test to that. How does that sound?
That looks very much like AcesHigh updating the aircraft's position incorrectly. I would bet that the p51 pilot in reality rolled left and pushed the nose down causing one of those negative G rolls.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: puller on September 29, 2016, 12:27:14 PM
I am with Dolby.
:joystick: :airplane: :noid
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: hitech on September 29, 2016, 12:36:24 PM
Skyyr can't hide himself at all, his fly, antics, headhunting, shades is incomparable. Except with Fulcrum, he has had the ability to change names and set up numerous BBS account. I wonder if information has passed between these former squadmates on how to hide ID from HTC.
Paranoid much, Dolby? Come on dude....
Last time we exchanged emails, which isnt all that often, Skyyr claimed quite explicity he wasn't Starfox. HTC has said the same. Do I have my doubts? Yes I do. Why? Because you are right...he flies like Skyyr. I hope I'm wrong...because if I am not I'd be disappointed that he lied to me.
As Shida said, everything can be hidden if you really want it to be.
Yes it can, and I've highlighted the key phrase for you. My advice would be to keep it in mind when considering everything you posted about.
Back to the OP topic, I will make sure to run AH film recordings going forward just in case I see similar issues again. :salute
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Dobs on September 29, 2016, 01:21:43 PM
240mph 400' entry
200mph 500ish exit
Pissed away 40mph and gained alt...for a plane that just had its nose--straight, 90 degree out from velocity vector, and then 60' nose low thats pretty impressive.
See image here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-kwhapBgCtYTl8tTjdXX1JubHc/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-kwhapBgCtYTl8tTjdXX1JubHc/view?usp=sharing)
Pictures taken from AH film...external, fixed point of reference.
See AH film here. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-kwhapBgCtYSVZNMkY2UzZDSlE/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-kwhapBgCtYSVZNMkY2UzZDSlE/view?usp=sharing)
External fixed point of reference works pretty good to see the funky chicken maneuver.
I can't make attachments for some reason on this thread so used links.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: FLS on September 29, 2016, 01:32:26 PM
You zoomed up to 628 ft and dropped to 439. You dropped 190 ft. Your speed went from 242 to 174mph. You lost 68 mph, over 25% of your speed. And you had an unintentional heading change. From one snap roll. So what's the problem?
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Drane on September 29, 2016, 01:52:32 PM
Pissed away 40mph and gained alt...for a plane that just had its nose--straight, 90 degree out from velocity vector, and then 60' nose low thats pretty impressive.
See image here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-kwhapBgCtYTl8tTjdXX1JubHc/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-kwhapBgCtYTl8tTjdXX1JubHc/view?usp=sharing)
Pictures taken from AH film...external, fixed point of reference.
See AH film here. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-kwhapBgCtYSVZNMkY2UzZDSlE/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-kwhapBgCtYSVZNMkY2UzZDSlE/view?usp=sharing)
External fixed point of reference works pretty good to see the funky chicken maneuver.
I can't make attachments for some reason on this thread so used links.
Cool Dobs! You can attach films to posts in the Films and Screenshots forum.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Dobs on September 29, 2016, 02:13:06 PM
You zoomed up to 628 ft and dropped to 439. You dropped 190 ft. Your speed went from 242 to 174mph. You lost 68 mph, over 25% of your speed. And you had an unintentional heading change. From one snap roll. So what's the problem?
The starting altitude was 400ish, the ending altitude was 400ish...the "zoom" portion was doing the 90 nose high to 90 out from velocity vector to 60 nose low....most of which was planform to the wind.
Obviously in your world no problem...
Carry on...nothing to see here..FLS has said this is normal flight behavior. :bhead
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: katanaso on September 29, 2016, 02:16:25 PM
The starting altitude was 400ish, the ending altitude was 400ish...the "zoom" portion was doing the 90 nose high to 90 out from velocity vector to 60 nose low....most of which was planform to the wind.
Obviously in your world no problem...
Carry on...nothing to see here..FLS has said this is normal flight behavior. :bhead
What do you see in the film that's wrong?
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: JunkyII on September 29, 2016, 03:34:09 PM
That looks very much like AcesHigh updating the aircraft's position incorrectly. I would bet that the p51 pilot in reality rolled left and pushed the nose down causing one of those negative G rolls.
I agree with this...today in game I saw a similar thing happen...he did a split S but on my end it stuttered randomly to the point I saw his entire plane pointing vertical...ended with me colliding him because I thought he was going up instead of down...unfortunately, not filming at the time.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Shuffler on September 29, 2016, 04:27:57 PM
I agree with this...today in game I saw a similar thing happen...he did a split S but on my end it stuttered randomly to the point I saw his entire plane pointing vertical...ended with me colliding him because I thought he was going up instead of down...unfortunately, not filming at the time.
Word is that after the collision, Junky palmed his forehead and said, "Wow I could have had a V8".
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: puller on September 29, 2016, 04:40:42 PM
The starting altitude was 400ish, the ending altitude was 400ish...the "zoom" portion was doing the 90 nose high to 90 out from velocity vector to 60 nose low....most of which was planform to the wind.
Obviously in your world no problem...
Carry on...nothing to see here..FLS has said this is normal flight behavior. :bhead
Watching the film in slow motion the entry is at 230 at about 400 and the aircraft recovers at over 600 feet at 180. 50 mph loss going uphill. Assuming the Spitfire he is flying stalls at 85 MPH, it would require 7.3 G's to achieve an accelerated stall at 230 mph (Required to enter the snap roll) Stall speed equals 1 G stall speed times square root of the G. 230 is 2.7 times 85 which equals 7.3 G required to stall at an indicated speed of 230 mph.
So, what we have is the ability to rack on 7.3 G's, snap roll the aircraft uphill and recover after only losing about 20 % of the entry airspeed.
Putting aside the incredibly violent stresses on pilot and air frame during such a maneuver, there seems to be something a little fishy about the above math.
Of course, such things are nearly impossible to quantify. No one does such things in real life.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: FLS on September 29, 2016, 05:50:48 PM
You don't need 7g, you only need one wing to exceed the stall AOA.
Note he didn't recover at 600 ft, he stabilized there and recovered to level flight around 440 ft.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: RufusLeaking on September 29, 2016, 07:27:38 PM
Assuming the Spitfire he is flying stalls at 85 MPH, it would require 7.3 G's to achieve an accelerated stall at 230 mph (Required to enter the snap roll) Stall speed equals 1 G stall speed times square root of the G. 230 is 2.7 times 85 which equals 7.3 G required to stall at an indicated speed of 230 mph.
I have never seen this equation. Is this airfoil specific?
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: FLS on September 29, 2016, 08:01:47 PM
...I have never seen this equation. Is this airfoil specific?
It's been posted in help and training a few times. Knowing the stall speed at any g load let's you estimate the load factor at the stall at other speeds.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Dobs on September 29, 2016, 11:22:38 PM
240 to 175 in 2 secs =53% of my Energy? :)
And question on the numbers...you saying the yaw AOA is measured off the velocity vector? Because once I get the aircraft moving its all relative at that point....
But this picture is taken from the film....Start, max deviation from flight path observed, and recovery...External, fixed camera view. Sure looks 90ish to me...
But bottom line, is thank you for the detailed replies and the fact that you care enough to answer the post(s).
Now to work on refining my snap roll defense... :banana:
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: FLS on September 30, 2016, 12:27:48 AM
The velocity vector is the relative wind that defines AOA. The numbers posted show the actual angles. Your flight path wasn't straight so a fixed camera view and still picture creates an illusion. Turn trails on in film to see it better.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Dawger on September 30, 2016, 03:25:14 PM
Side Slip /wing blanking/dihedral/change in wing profile realative to the wind.
HiTech
So you are applying enough yaw force to move the longitudinal axis fast enough and far enough across the velocity vector to blank the wing enough to stall it at the tip?
The force required to do that at 230 mph is tremendous.
In reality, the airfoil needs to be close to its critical AOA before a rudder kick will stall it (a little up aileron will help on the side of the kick) and the speed needs to be low enough that the rudder kick doesn't knock the tail off.
Snap rolls are violent things, involving high G on the wing and large forces on the vertical stabilizer. You have to stall (or get very very close) the wing with back stick and induce the autorotation with rudder or it is just a high G barrel roll.
And this is where I will bow out.
There is no room for a point of view other than "it matches reality now" so no point in further discussion.
<S>
:bolt:
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: FLS on September 30, 2016, 05:49:01 PM
Dawger you are guessing. You haven't found anything wrong, you don't back up any of your claims. When Hitech explains your error you bow out with a graceless parting shot as if you're an expert beyond our understanding.
HiTech answered one of your questions. I'll answer the other. Dobs recovered from post stall gyrations then lost altitude regaining lift for level flight.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: RufusLeaking on October 01, 2016, 08:04:44 AM
Let's get back to basics.
An aerodynamic stall is when airflow separates from the wing. It goes from laminar flow to turbulent. The point of separation moves from the back of the wing to the front as AOA increases. The stall is the point where the weight of the aircraft (if in level flight) exceeds the lift generated.
The airflow separation reduces the effective area of the wing and reduces lift.
An accelerated stall is when the load on the wing increases to exceed the lift on the wing.
Recovery of a level stall is to lower angle of attack. Pushing the nose over does this, as well as increasing speed and unloading the wing.
Recovery from an accelerated stall is simply reducing the load on the wing by reducing the G's.
Many factors influence the exact characteristics of a stall:
Wing form. Yaw angle. Wing condition. Planes are often slightly bent. Engine torque. I could never get a Cessna 152 to spin against torque.
My point is that modeling the chaotic physics of a stalling aircraft is difficult, if not impossible. Computational Fluid Dynamics is a science all its own. To keep the simulation running at a playable speed, I assume HiTech does some educated approximations of how the planes will depart controlled flight.
*** I post this, because I could not follow or was unfamiliar with some of the theories expressed in previous posts. This is my knowledge, based on my time as an instructor pilot in the USAF. :old:***
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: FLS on October 01, 2016, 09:23:11 AM
Good points. :aok
I think you can simplify the aerodynamic stall definition. The wing stalls when the critical AOA is exceeded.
An accelerated stall is a stall at greater than 1g. You add a radial g load by increasing AOA, when the critical AOA is exceeded the wing stalls.
For both stalls the recovery is by reducing AOA.
No one is claiming Aces High is more than a simplified physics of flight model but the post stall behavior is more accurate than any other simulation I know of.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: RufusLeaking on October 01, 2016, 11:02:47 AM
Of course. In a level flight, low speed stall, pushing the nose over, aka decreasing AOA, unloads the wing and increases speed. Recovery from an accelerated stall is to unload the wing by easing on the elevator input, essentially decreasing AOA while lowering the load on the wing.
The difference is that recovery from a level flight, low speed stall will almost always require a loss of altitude. Recovery from an accelerated stall can happen in a climb, depending on attitude.
No one is claiming Aces High is more than a simplified physics of flight model but the post stall behavior is more accurate than any other simulation I know of.
I agree. The flight model in Aces High is excellent. I particularly like the different 'feel' for different planes. :aok
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: FLS on October 01, 2016, 11:19:12 AM
I think we're saying the same things. Critical AOA is the point where lift is less than weight in steady state flight.
Totally lost me. What is a radial G? Torque?
Of course. In a level flight, low speed stall, pushing the nose over, aka decreasing AOA, unloads the wing and increases speed. Recovery from an accelerated stall is to unload the wing by easing on the elevator input, essentially decreasing AOA while lowering the load on the wing.
The difference is that recovery from a level flight, low speed stall will almost always require a loss of altitude. Recovery from an accelerated stall can happen in a climb, depending on attitude.
I agree. The flight model in Aces High is excellent. I particularly like the different 'feel' for different planes. :aok
Radial g is the load factor from turning. I think the expression comes from the force being on a radial from the turn circle center.
I wasn't disagreeing with anything, I was just restating what you said to show that the accelerated stall isn't really different, it just happens at a higher speed.
The USN and USAF sometimes say the same things differently and I'm biased to USN. :salute
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: RufusLeaking on October 01, 2016, 11:53:17 AM
I think we're saying the same things. Critical AOA is the point where lift is less than weight in steady state flight.
A better definition of Critical AOA is the smallest AOA at which any increase in AOA will cause cause less lift. Note, AOA is also not such a simple concept as "A plane will stall at X AOA' because the AOA can be a different angle at any moment in time on every part of the wing.
The way stall is described is different dependent on who is using the information. For a pilot flying a plane normally you speak of stall speed and load factor. Load factor is the increase in lift needed for level flight to maintain a turn at a given bank angle. This is calculated by the equation { Lift Needed for level flight = Plane Weight / cos(Bank Angle) }. For normal aviation entering the realm of accelerated stalls is not something that most pilots have ever done. Where military pilots and people who fly aerobatics, stalling at more then 3 g's is fairly common. I am always surprised at the number of pilots I know who have never been inverted in an airplane.
But when you start speaking to engineers who are interested in plane design or flight modeling. Then something like stall speed and load factor are not very helpful unless lots more information is know about a plane design.
As an example stall speed in pilot manuals are normally listed normally listed in IAS. This is because it is most useful to the pilot to know because he can simply look at his air speed indicator and know the number where the plane where stall. But at high AOA IAS can be very different from CAS (Calibrated air speed) and with out knowing CAS any stall calculations based on IAS can be very miss leading.
HiTech
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: FLS on October 01, 2016, 12:28:54 PM
A better definition of Critical AOA is the smallest AOA at which any increase in AOA will cause cause less lift. Note, AOA is also not such a simple concept as "A plane will stall at X AOA' because the AOA can be a different angle at any moment in time on every part of the wing.
I understand. I was getting the impression that some in this discussion were not getting the concepts.
Critical AOA is the smallest AOA at which the any increase in AOA will cause less lift than the load (weight x G.)
Regarding inverted, I've been in an accelerated stall pulling through over the top. :banana:
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: JOACH1M on October 01, 2016, 12:57:10 PM
I just fly the plane. :rock
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: FLS on October 01, 2016, 01:07:09 PM
I understand. I was getting the impression that some in this discussion were not getting the concepts.
Critical AOA is the smallest AOA at which the any increase in AOA will cause less lift than the load (weight x G.)
Regarding inverted, I've been in an accelerated stall pulling through over the top. :banana:
I haven't seen any definitions where load is part of the critical AOA, that would describe the stall, critical AOA is the point where coefficient of lift no longer increases. Lift will vary with speed but neither is part of the definition of critical AOA.
My dad was a mechanic in the Royal Norwegian Air Force before he became a pilot. He had worked on a Tiger Moth one time and the pilot told him to hop in for a quick flight when he finished. He didn't know the pilot was going to loop and he hadn't strapped in. The pilot didn't notice that but fortunately he kept positive g over the top. :eek:
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: hitech on October 01, 2016, 01:35:52 PM
I understand. I was getting the impression that some in this discussion were not getting the concepts.
Critical AOA is the smallest AOA at which the any increase in AOA will cause less lift than the load (weight x G.)
Regarding inverted, I've been in an accelerated stall pulling through over the top. :banana:
No Rufus the load is irrelevant to critical angle. Lift pre stall increases with AOA, lift post stall decreases with AOA. The point at which it changes is the critical AOA regardless of load. (Note VERY deep into stall lift can increases again. Get one wing on each side of that hump is a flat spin).
HiTech
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: RufusLeaking on October 01, 2016, 02:04:54 PM
No Rufus the load is irrelevant to critical angle. Lift pre stall increases with AOA, lift post stall decreases with AOA. The point at which it changes is the critical AOA regardless of load. (Note VERY deep into stall lift can increases again. Get one wing on each side of that hump is a flat spin).
HiTech
Pardon my return to the basic basics ...
Lift is the vector that counteracts weight in steady state flight. The stall occurs when lift is less than weight. That is, of course, the critical AOA.
A lighter airplane will tolerate a higher AOA before stalling. 'Stalling' being defined as less lift than needed.
It is a matter of terminology. I get that flow separates with increased AOA to the relative wind, period. But, in my mind, a stall is departing controlled flight, where weight and centrifugal force are also factors.
*** Great conversation, by the way. You know what you're talking about, obviously. So does FLS, despite his naval aviation bias. :salute ***
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: hitech on October 01, 2016, 02:12:42 PM
If this is not a game issue, how much will a poor connection influence this erratic behavior being reported?
i have found just holding the gun trigger down the whole time eliminates the issue described. Adapt and overcome people.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: bustr on October 01, 2016, 02:54:51 PM
Joachim,
The game can have a bug which creates erratic behaviors of a function. Or external events can influence an erratic behavior to a game function. Yes I adapt and shoot down the erratically behaving con. My question was an interest into functions, not how well a gamer can overcome something.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: RufusLeaking on October 01, 2016, 08:15:52 PM
Not a matter of terminology. Regardless of weight , light plane or heavy plane, they will stall at the exact same AOA.
HiTech
D'oh. I am very very incorrect.
I was going through my experiences with AOA. Both the T-38 and the KC-135 had AOA gauges. The T-38 also had an simple indicator on the glare shield. In both aircraft, the approach speeds were recalculated on every pattern based on aircraft weight. On both aircraft, "in the green" was at .6 AOA.
As an example stall speed in pilot manuals are normally listed normally listed in IAS. This is because it is most useful to the pilot to know because he can simply look at his air speed indicator and know the number where the plane where stall.
...
It was the airspeed that changed with weight, not the AOA. The T-38 has a symmetrical supersonic airfoil. The KC-135 had a conventional camber airfoil. Again, both had the same AOA target for approach and landing.
So, mark the date. On this first day of October in the year 2016, I was very, very incorrect. :headscratch:
One unanswered question, why is the scale of AOA on the gauges from 0 to 1.0? It appears to be a ratio. Intuition tells me that the raw AOA for stall should vary with airfoil profile; but, as it has been seen, I could be wrong.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: FLS on October 01, 2016, 09:59:25 PM
From what I've read the AOA indexer doesn't show the degrees of angle from the mean chord line but it correlates to it. From your description it was indexed to show you the same value for the correct AOA for each aircraft in the landing configuration. The actual AOA for each aircraft would likely be different as well as the critical AOA. I don't know if yours showed the range of usable AOA or was just used for landing.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: RufusLeaking on October 02, 2016, 10:15:45 AM
... The actual AOA for each aircraft would likely be different as well as the critical AOA. I don't know if yours showed the range of usable AOA or was just used for landing.
Here is a general diagram of what I recall: (http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss9/aviate14/AOA%20diagram.jpg) (http://s556.photobucket.com/user/aviate14/media/AOA%20diagram.jpg.html)
The needle would be horizontal to the right when on speed.
There was one on each side of the engine instruments (above altimeter on the left side.) They show to be lacking color in this image of the old -135 instrument panel: (http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss9/aviate14/kc135cockpitaoa.jpg) (http://s556.photobucket.com/user/aviate14/media/kc135cockpitaoa.jpg.html)
The T-38A had something similar to this on the top of the glare shield: (http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss9/aviate14/AOA%20indicator%20example.jpg) (http://s556.photobucket.com/user/aviate14/media/AOA%20indicator%20example.jpg.html)
I couldn't find the actual gauge on a T-38A instrument panel. My old man's mind might be failing.
Anyways, it is a good discussion of flight parameters, despite being a thread hijack. :salute
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: hitech on October 02, 2016, 11:48:00 AM
What was the normal short final AOA on the gauge?
HiTech
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: RufusLeaking on October 02, 2016, 12:11:29 PM
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: SFRT - Frenchy on October 02, 2016, 01:01:29 PM
AOA made the airspeed indicator the most worthless instrument in my cockpit. It has been a few 1000 hours since I looked at my airspeed indicator except to creep as close as I can from the barber pole in the descent. :lol
Back on topic, Hitech comes across to me as the typical book worm in the Engineering sense. Someone reports something, he investigates it and says "Nope, my formulas and numbers are correct." ... and rolls his eyes ... and we all roll our eyes in return. Same when he said the 50s strength did not change when AHIII initially rolled in while everyone was complaining/praising about how strong the 50s were, then a few patch later 'poof' back to 'AH2 normal'. I had a similar hard time with my management team brandishing aircraft performance charts till one of them jumpseated for business and we barely cleared the trees.
These issues cannot be identified with 1 and 0s, they need to be experienced. These threads will be endless till Hitech has the free time to actually fly his own game as much as we do : a few hours in the evenings like us. He is not operating in the same world as us.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Shuffler on October 02, 2016, 01:16:15 PM
AOA made the airspeed indicator the most worthless instrument in my cockpit. It has been a few 1000 hours since I looked at my airspeed indicator except to creep as close as I can from the barber pole in the descent. :lol
Back on topic, Hitech comes across to me as the typical book worm in the Engineering sense. Someone reports something, he investigates it and says "Nope, my formulas and numbers are correct." ... and rolls his eyes ... and we all roll our eyes in return. Same when he said the 50s strength did not change when AHIII initially rolled in while everyone was complaining/praising about how strong the 50s were, then a few patch later 'poof' back to 'AH2 normal'. I had a similar hard time with my management team brandishing aircraft performance charts till one of them jumpseated for business and we barely cleared the trees.
These issues cannot be identified with 1 and 0s, they need to be experienced. These threads will be endless till Hitech has the free time to actually fly his own game as much as we do : a few hours in the evenings like us. He is not operating in the same world as us.
If you flew beta you would have seen him quite often.
He is also a pilot in his own right in real life with some experience in WWII aircraft.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: FLS on October 02, 2016, 01:25:56 PM
Frenchy can see Hitech rolling his eyes through his shades.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Shuffler on October 02, 2016, 01:27:04 PM
AOA made the airspeed indicator the most worthless instrument in my cockpit. It has been a few 1000 hours since I looked at my airspeed indicator except to creep as close as I can from the barber pole in the descent. :lol
Different flap settings, and the landing gear had over speed limits. Definitely had to keep an eye on airspeed.
These issues cannot be identified with 1 and 0s, they need to be experienced. These threads will be endless till Hitech has the free time to actually fly his own game as much as we do : a few hours in the evenings like us. He is not operating in the same world as us.
Coding is a different skill set, for sure. But, Shuffler is right about HiTech's flying experience. I credit that with the relative accuracy of the flight combat game.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: FLS on October 02, 2016, 02:06:33 PM
If you flew beta you would have seen him quite often.
He is also a pilot in his own right in real life with some experience in WWII aircraft.
Shuffler, FLS ... indeed. Yet it is not what I said. When he was showing up in Beta he was working. Let me re-phrase, most of the perceived issues need to be experienced by playing the game daily as a regular Joe not and not with a Hitech gamertag. The plane flipping, the eyebrow raising moves, the harassment described, guys flying thru ack numerous time unhurt, hitting a plane with 4-5 burst of 8 50s to keep seeing him flying while losing your tail to a single 20mm hit. All these are 'perceived' and can only be experienced first hand. The stall/P factor relation weirdness is a FM issue to me.
Do not read me wrong about Hitech, he is no Oleg. To me he cares deeply about his product. That Oleg guy had a huge ego regarding his FM and game but could never admit irregularities nor look into it.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: FLS on October 02, 2016, 03:34:22 PM
.. Let me re-phrase, most of the perceived issues need to be experienced by playing the game daily as a regular Joe not and not with a Hitech gamertag. ...
Did you miss the shades joke? :cool:
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: SFRT - Frenchy on October 02, 2016, 03:37:46 PM
It was brilliant :aok but I remember him mentioning he doesn't use shades <might be outdated info> :old: ... work on a software all day, go home and play the game a few nights a week. That's a receipe for divorce and mental asylum trip. :uhoh
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: FLS on October 02, 2016, 03:38:47 PM
I think he said he doesn't pose as a newbie but he does have shades. :aok
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: SFRT - Frenchy on October 02, 2016, 03:40:31 PM
:cheers:
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Ack-Ack on October 02, 2016, 03:42:59 PM
It was brilliant :aok but I remember him mentioning he doesn't use shades <might be outdated info> :old: ... work on a software all day, go home and play the game a few nights a week. That's a receipe for divorce and mental asylum trip. :uhoh
who do you think cybro is?
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: SFRT - Frenchy on October 02, 2016, 03:44:43 PM
I don't know how much of the stuff I mentioned is to be learned from sitting in a hangar Akak. :ahand
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Shuffler on October 02, 2016, 04:15:01 PM
Shuffler, FLS ... indeed. Yet it is not what I said. When he was showing up in Beta he was working. Let me re-phrase, most of the perceived issues need to be experienced by playing the game daily as a regular Joe not and not with a Hitech gamertag. The plane flipping, the eyebrow raising moves, the harassment described, guys flying thru ack numerous time unhurt, hitting a plane with 4-5 burst of 8 50s to keep seeing him flying while losing your tail to a single 20mm hit. All these are 'perceived' and can only be experienced first hand. The stall/P factor relation weirdness is a FM issue to me.
Do not read me wrong about Hitech, he is no Oleg. To me he cares deeply about his product. That Oleg guy had a huge ego regarding his FM and game but could never admit irregularities nor look into it.
Any AH film sent in has info in it that HiTech can draw from. He sees more than any of us have ever seen in the game. They do not just see the video that we see.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: FLS on October 02, 2016, 04:21:57 PM
Literally? Because P-factor is hard to isolate from the other forces expressed in the stall.
I isolate the P factor by taking a break every once in a while. :aok
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: SFRT - Frenchy on October 02, 2016, 05:51:45 PM
Schuffler :rofl
FLS, nah one or all 4 forces combined between prop, Tq, gyro and P.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: DREDIOCK on October 02, 2016, 06:25:04 PM
Last night I witnessed several times in one flight these micro warps people are complaining about. Dunno if its a rendering issue or not as at lelast my net status was fine. The other guy didnt warp far. maybe 50-100 feet at a clip but it definitely wasnt something that he could have done maneuver wise as it was a now you see me now you dont ..surprise! Im over here! type thing.
unfortunately I through muscle memory wasnt thinking when I ended mission and didnt save the film
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Vulcan on October 02, 2016, 06:57:28 PM
Last night I witnessed several times in one flight these micro warps people are complaining about. Dunno if its a rendering issue or not as at lelast my net status was fine. The other guy didnt warp far. maybe 50-100 feet at a clip but it definitely wasnt something that he could have done maneuver wise as it was a now you see me now you dont ..surprise! Im over here! type thing.
unfortunately I through muscle memory wasnt thinking when I ended mission and didnt save the film
MA seemed quite warpy last night, lots of people were noticing it.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: FLS on October 02, 2016, 10:30:33 PM
FLS, nah one or all 4 forces combined between prop, Tq, gyro and P.
What would you have Hitech do differently? He modeled his RV8 which he flies regularly and acrobatically and that helps him validate his flight model. What sort of input should over-ride his judgement and change fighter performance?
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: JunkyII on October 03, 2016, 12:05:43 PM
Last night I witnessed several times in one flight these micro warps people are complaining about. Dunno if its a rendering issue or not as at lelast my net status was fine. The other guy didnt warp far. maybe 50-100 feet at a clip but it definitely wasnt something that he could have done maneuver wise as it was a now you see me now you dont ..surprise! Im over here! type thing.
unfortunately I through muscle memory wasnt thinking when I ended mission and didnt save the film
I got huge frame dumps looking at one Spit 16 (I'm talking from flat 60 to 30 all the way to 2 FPS very sparatically)....I killed the spit and game worked fine after....I'm starting to think certain skins are making the game not render properly.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: SFRT - Frenchy on October 03, 2016, 02:27:21 PM
What would you have Hitech do differently? He modeled his RV8 which he flies regularly and acrobatically and that helps him validate his flight model. What sort of input should over-ride his judgement and change fighter performance?
You tell me my man, you seem to be the expert. If you are indeed an aviator, this "power to idle vs Power OFF stalls/spins" video should raise an eyebrow. Something about these 4 forces is not quite right. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=586lFSpIxsw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=586lFSpIxsw)
I also find hard to believe you can apply full rudder in a Spitfire 16, let the speed bleed and yet maintain wings level with aileron input while still keeping full rudder and a few 1000s negative FPMs without entering a spin.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: FLS on October 03, 2016, 02:46:36 PM
Do you have a video of an actual Spitfire spinning differently under the same conditions?
I'm not claiming the flight model is perfect or complete. There are things that aren't modeled like aileron reversal at high speeds.
I never claimed to be an expert. My dad's an expert, I'm clear on the difference. :D
Any investigations of the flight model are better done with smoke or trails on in film to show the relative wind.
The question remains what should the criteria for changes be? What change in the flight model would you make because of "that doesn't look right based on my experience not spinning Spitfires?"
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: SFRT - Frenchy on October 03, 2016, 04:31:27 PM
Did you watch the whole video? At 1:00 is the difference : engine off. This is why guys like Skyyr or StarFox shut they engine off briefly 'at the top'. What does not look right to me effect the pop forces have on the FM while at idle. One/or all of these 4 forces are way too strong and create the weird nose wobble as the stall is 'clean' when the engine is off. Dude, I don't have a PHD in aerodynamics, nor did I stalled a real life Spitfire or P47. The closest I have is a high torque single engine experience. I currently fly a 1,600HP turboprop with the power to weight ratio of a P51 and never ever on excessive nose high power to idle stalls did anything like the AH power to idle stall happens.
I encourage you to take a Spitfire and go do the manoeuvers I mentioned above and see what your dad thinks. To me HiTech probably has the best raw fight model in the industry and I cannot even begin to comprehend how he makes it happen, but there are still areas that stand as non convincing.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: FLS on October 03, 2016, 05:23:02 PM
My dad wouldn't be interested.
If you look at my videos you'll see I stall a Spit VIII.
I assume you're flying an aircraft designed with more inherent safety than a fighter.
I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm asking what specifically needs to change?
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: SFRT - Frenchy on October 03, 2016, 06:32:15 PM
Have you even read anything I wrote to you? :lol
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: FLS on October 03, 2016, 06:45:58 PM
You have an AH film video that doesn't show relative wind. Why does the nose wobble? Who can tell from that video? Try stalling with smoke on.
Your point is the flight model could be more like real flying but you don't know what should change.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Kanth on October 04, 2016, 08:59:38 AM
I'm not a pilot but from what you have isolated in your testing.
It looks like a lack of dynamic torque.
Meaning Torque is ON with the engine OR OFF without the engine but not LESS when engine is idle and MORE when engine is full power.
So it's trying to figure out what should happen at plane is flat to the horizon, stall speeds, with engine full torque and full left rudder.
Or maybe it's not that black and white but perhaps engine idle needs less torque. Only one person knows and it's not me. :cool:
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: bustr on October 04, 2016, 12:06:05 PM
Hey Frenchy, you still flying those commercial deliveries with that Dash7 out of Salt lake these days?
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: FESS67 on October 05, 2016, 07:20:54 AM
Well, I go outback for work and come back to this.
I think it might be worth taking a breath and looking at the problem without being obtuse and argumentative. Perhaps come at it inva more collaborative stance.
From that perspective, do we even agree the problem exists? I posted that it does, others have posted the same experience. I am not sure what the problem is, I just know it exists and a pissing contest about knowledge of flight dynamics seems to have got in the way of the hunt for the cause and ultimately the solution
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Shuffler on October 05, 2016, 07:48:33 AM
Well, I go outback for work and come back to this.
I think it might be worth taking a breath and looking at the problem without being obtuse and argumentative. Perhaps come at it inva more collaborative stance.
From that perspective, do we even agree the problem exists? I posted that it does, others have posted the same experience. I am not sure what the problem is, I just know it exists and a pissing contest about knowledge of flight dynamics seems to have got in the way of the hunt for the cause and ultimately the solution
Hardly a pissing contest. Looks to me like a great discussion. It has already been said that it is not on topic though.
As for the issue, it seems some folks see it and the rest have not. HiTech has film he can check and it will go from there.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Randall172 on October 11, 2016, 10:08:23 AM
Here is the event, and this is why I want ah films because I can extract data. Max yaw Angle off the vel vector is 64.2 not as you say almost 90.
Time 3.98 TotalAOA=1.1 PitchAOA=-0.8 YawAOA=0.8 Speed=241.7 Alt=431 Time 4.03 TotalAOA=1.2 PitchAOA=-0.9 YawAOA=0.8 Speed=241.9 Alt=432 Time 4.07 TotalAOA=1.2 PitchAOA=-0.9 YawAOA=0.8 Speed=242.0 Alt=432 Time 4.10 TotalAOA=1.3 PitchAOA=-1.1 YawAOA=0.8 Speed=242.1 Alt=432 Time 4.15 TotalAOA=1.7 PitchAOA=-1.4 YawAOA=0.9 Speed=242.3 Alt=433 Time 4.18 TotalAOA=2.0 PitchAOA=-1.8 YawAOA=1.0 Speed=242.3 Alt=433 Time 4.23 TotalAOA=2.9 PitchAOA=-2.6 YawAOA=1.2 Speed=242.5 Alt=433 Time 4.28 TotalAOA=3.8 PitchAOA=-3.5 YawAOA=1.6 Speed=242.5 Alt=434 Time 4.30 TotalAOA=4.4 PitchAOA=-4.0 YawAOA=1.8 Speed=242.6 Alt=434 Time 4.35 TotalAOA=5.9 PitchAOA=-5.3 YawAOA=2.6 Speed=242.6 Alt=435 Time 4.38 TotalAOA=6.9 PitchAOA=-6.2 YawAOA=3.1 Speed=242.6 Alt=435 Time 4.44 TotalAOA=9.0 PitchAOA=-7.8 YawAOA=4.4 Speed=242.4 Alt=436 Time 4.46 TotalAOA=10.2 PitchAOA=-8.7 YawAOA=5.4 Speed=242.3 Alt=437 Time 4.50 TotalAOA=11.7 PitchAOA=-9.7 YawAOA=6.6 Speed=242.0 Alt=438 Time 4.55 TotalAOA=14.0 PitchAOA=-11.0 YawAOA=8.7 Speed=241.5 Alt=439 Time 4.58 TotalAOA=15.7 PitchAOA=-11.8 YawAOA=10.4 Speed=241.1 Alt=441 Time 4.63 TotalAOA=18.4 PitchAOA=-12.8 YawAOA=13.3 Speed=240.2 Alt=443 Time 4.66 TotalAOA=20.0 PitchAOA=-13.2 YawAOA=15.1 Speed=239.6 Alt=444 Time 4.70 TotalAOA=21.9 PitchAOA=-13.6 YawAOA=17.4 Speed=238.8 Alt=446 Time 4.75 TotalAOA=24.5 PitchAOA=-13.9 YawAOA=20.4 Speed=237.6 Alt=449 Time 4.79 TotalAOA=26.2 PitchAOA=-14.1 YawAOA=22.3 Speed=236.6 Alt=452 Time 4.84 TotalAOA=28.5 PitchAOA=-14.4 YawAOA=24.9 Speed=235.2 Alt=455 Time 4.87 TotalAOA=29.8 PitchAOA=-14.5 YawAOA=26.3 Speed=234.3 Alt=457 Time 4.90 TotalAOA=31.1 PitchAOA=-14.5 YawAOA=27.8 Speed=233.3 Alt=460 Time 4.95 TotalAOA=32.9 PitchAOA=-14.3 YawAOA=29.9 Speed=231.7 Alt=464 Time 4.98 TotalAOA=34.1 PitchAOA=-14.0 YawAOA=31.5 Speed=230.5 Alt=467 Time 5.03 TotalAOA=35.8 PitchAOA=-13.3 YawAOA=33.5 Speed=228.8 Alt=472 Time 5.07 TotalAOA=37.0 PitchAOA=-12.6 YawAOA=35.1 Speed=227.5 Alt=475 Time 5.10 TotalAOA=38.1 PitchAOA=-12.0 YawAOA=36.5 Speed=226.4 Alt=478 Time 5.15 TotalAOA=39.9 PitchAOA=-11.0 YawAOA=38.6 Speed=224.6 Alt=483 Time 5.18 TotalAOA=41.1 PitchAOA=-10.3 YawAOA=40.1 Speed=223.4 Alt=486 Time 5.23 TotalAOA=43.0 PitchAOA=-9.3 YawAOA=42.2 Speed=221.9 Alt=491 Time 5.27 TotalAOA=44.5 PitchAOA=-8.4 YawAOA=43.9 Speed=220.5 Alt=495 Time 5.30 TotalAOA=45.9 PitchAOA=-7.7 YawAOA=45.5 Speed=219.4 Alt=498 Time 5.35 TotalAOA=48.2 PitchAOA=-6.3 YawAOA=47.9 Speed=217.6 Alt=503 Time 5.38 TotalAOA=49.6 PitchAOA=-5.5 YawAOA=49.4 Speed=216.5 Alt=505 Time 5.44 TotalAOA=52.1 PitchAOA=-4.0 YawAOA=52.0 Speed=214.5 Alt=510 Time 5.46 TotalAOA=53.5 PitchAOA=-3.2 YawAOA=53.4 Speed=213.4 Alt=513 Time 5.50 TotalAOA=55.1 PitchAOA=-2.1 YawAOA=55.1 Speed=212.1 Alt=516 Time 5.55 TotalAOA=57.3 PitchAOA=-0.6 YawAOA=57.3 Speed=210.1 Alt=520 Time 5.58 TotalAOA=58.8 PitchAOA=0.5 YawAOA=58.8 Speed=208.7 Alt=523 Time 5.63 TotalAOA=60.7 PitchAOA=2.2 YawAOA=60.7 Speed=206.6 Alt=527 Time 5.67 TotalAOA=61.9 PitchAOA=3.4 YawAOA=61.9 Speed=205.0 Alt=529 Time 5.70 TotalAOA=62.8 PitchAOA=4.4 YawAOA=62.7 Speed=203.7 Alt=532 Time 5.75 TotalAOA=63.9 PitchAOA=6.2 YawAOA=63.8 Speed=201.3 Alt=536 Time 5.78 TotalAOA=64.3 PitchAOA=7.2 YawAOA=64.1 Speed=199.9 Alt=538 Time 5.84 TotalAOA=64.5 PitchAOA=9.2 YawAOA=64.2 Speed=197.4 Alt=542 Time 5.87 TotalAOA=64.3 PitchAOA=10.3 YawAOA=63.9 Speed=196.0 Alt=545 Time 5.90 TotalAOA=63.9 PitchAOA=11.4 YawAOA=63.3 Speed=194.5 Alt=547 Time 5.95 TotalAOA=62.6 PitchAOA=12.9 YawAOA=61.9 Speed=192.2 Alt=551 Time 5.99 TotalAOA=61.5 PitchAOA=13.6 YawAOA=60.6 Speed=190.7 Alt=554 Time 6.04 TotalAOA=59.3 PitchAOA=14.0 YawAOA=58.3 Speed=188.6 Alt=558 Time 6.07 TotalAOA=57.9 PitchAOA=13.8 YawAOA=56.8 Speed=187.5 Alt=560 Time 6.10 TotalAOA=56.2 PitchAOA=13.3 YawAOA=55.2 Speed=186.3 Alt=562 Time 6.15 TotalAOA=53.6 PitchAOA=11.8 YawAOA=52.8 Speed=184.7 Alt=566 Time 6.18 TotalAOA=52.3 PitchAOA=10.6 YawAOA=51.5 Speed=183.8 Alt=568 Time 6.24 TotalAOA=50.0 PitchAOA=8.2 YawAOA=49.5 Speed=182.4 Alt=572 Time 6.27 TotalAOA=48.9 PitchAOA=6.8 YawAOA=48.6 Speed=181.8 Alt=574 Time 6.30 TotalAOA=47.7 PitchAOA=5.1 YawAOA=47.5 Speed=181.1 Alt=576 Time 6.35 TotalAOA=45.9 PitchAOA=2.6 YawAOA=45.9 Speed=180.0 Alt=579 Time 6.38 TotalAOA=45.0 PitchAOA=1.4 YawAOA=45.0 Speed=179.5 Alt=581 Time 6.42 TotalAOA=43.7 PitchAOA=-0.0 YawAOA=43.8 Speed=178.9 Alt=583 Time 6.47 TotalAOA=41.9 PitchAOA=-1.7 YawAOA=41.9 Speed=178.0 Alt=585 Time 6.50 TotalAOA=40.7 PitchAOA=-2.4 YawAOA=40.6 Speed=177.5 Alt=587 Time 6.56 TotalAOA=38.1 PitchAOA=-3.6 YawAOA=38.0 Speed=176.7 Alt=590 Time 6.58 TotalAOA=36.7 PitchAOA=-3.8 YawAOA=36.5 Speed=176.4 Alt=591 Time 6.62 TotalAOA=34.6 PitchAOA=-4.1 YawAOA=34.4 Speed=176.0 Alt=593 Time 6.67 TotalAOA=31.7 PitchAOA=-4.1 YawAOA=31.5 Speed=175.5 Alt=595 Time 6.70 TotalAOA=29.0 PitchAOA=-3.8 YawAOA=28.8 Speed=175.2 Alt=596 Time 6.75 TotalAOA=25.2 PitchAOA=-3.1 YawAOA=25.0 Speed=174.8 Alt=598 Time 6.78 TotalAOA=22.4 PitchAOA=-2.5 YawAOA=22.3 Speed=174.7 Alt=600 Time 6.82 TotalAOA=19.1 PitchAOA=-1.7 YawAOA=19.0 Speed=174.6 Alt=601 Time 6.87 TotalAOA=14.0 PitchAOA=-0.5 YawAOA=14.0 Speed=174.5 Alt=602 Time 6.90 TotalAOA=10.6 PitchAOA=0.2 YawAOA=10.6 Speed=174.6 Alt=603 Time 6.95 TotalAOA=5.5 PitchAOA=1.4 YawAOA=5.3 Speed=174.8 Alt=605 Time 6.99 TotalAOA=2.8 PitchAOA=2.1 YawAOA=1.8 Speed=174.9 Alt=606 Time 7.02 TotalAOA=2.7 PitchAOA=2.6 YawAOA=-0.8 Speed=175.1 Alt=606 Time 7.07 TotalAOA=6.6 PitchAOA=3.4 YawAOA=-5.7 Speed=175.4 Alt=608 Time 7.10 TotalAOA=8.8 PitchAOA=3.6 YawAOA=-8.0 Speed=175.6 Alt=608
I really do not know what you expect but scrubbing 65mph in 2 secs is a fairly rapped deceleration177.
That deceleration scrubbed about 53% of your energy in 2 secs.
HiTech
How do you do this?!?!
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: The Fugitive on October 11, 2016, 10:19:46 AM
Pull the data or slow the plane down?
He is the owner/code writer of the game. He has amny tools available, that are NOT avaialable to the public, that he can use to figure out what is going on. That is why he said he likes to have film from the game.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Dobs on October 11, 2016, 11:34:38 PM
RE: RUFUS and AOA...
Worth watching...
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: save on October 12, 2016, 10:00:04 AM
At what speed doe the F4u compress flying backwards :headscratch: :bolt: :bolt:
Not quite sure if you're saying that's new behavior, but the F4Us were easy to get to fly backwards in 2 as well. I used to be able to do it at will and quite often unintentionally if I pressed a rolling scissor too hard in AHII. Just trying to add info.
Wiley.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: FLS on October 12, 2016, 10:40:34 AM
What do you imagine the terminal velocity would be?
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: j500ss on October 12, 2016, 11:27:31 AM
Would compression speed even be possible? One would have to have the ability to keep the plane in the in the 90 to ground flight path. I suppose it could be, but it would take a lot of alt to do it I would think. Thus you would have the ability to recover.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: FLS on October 12, 2016, 11:29:55 AM
Would compression speed even be possible? One would have to have the ability to keep the plane in the in the 90 to ground flight path. I suppose it could be, but it would take a lot of alt to do it I would think. Thus you would have the ability to recover.
Compression (actually exceeding critical mach number for the airfoil. Compression is an archaic term) is certainly possible assuming you could control the aircraft going backwards.
Viscous fluids accelerate along a curve. You are essentially describing flying the airfoil backwards. The situation is akin to a supercritical airfoil. You would present a flat upper surface with a sharp leading edge to the fluid flow. The biggest issue is the blunt, highly curved rear third of the wing (the leading edge in normal flight). Flying backwards the acceleration along the upper surface would be slow until reaching the highly curved portion, rapidly accelerating the upper surface fluid, reaching critical mach number pretty quickly.
Most likely the center of pressure on an airfoil such as the Corsair flown backward would be very close to the maximum thickness point(SWAG ALERT). The resulting shockwave of the rapidly accelerating air reaching the curve would quickly push the center of pressure off the airfoil entirely, resulting in a violent departure from controlled flight.
This is, of course, all very theoretical as control of an aircraft going backwards would be impossible for a human. You would need a fly by wire system programmed to do it (Assuming you built the aircraft to handle the stresses of such an event)
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: Kazaa on October 14, 2016, 08:06:54 AM
I've also noticed this.
Title: Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
Post by: rvflyer on October 15, 2016, 12:10:30 PM