Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Custom Skins => Topic started by: Vraciu on October 16, 2017, 08:50:21 PM
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Thanks to Lyric1 for proving forensically that this paint scheme--with the red surround on the national insignia--existed and is historically accurate. (He literally found a color photo of the crashed aircraft with the insignia showing.)
Summary by Ron Cole follows:
In October of 1943 this P-51B was apparently among the first Mustangs sent to the European Theater of Operations (ETO), where it was assigned to the soon-to-be-famous 354th Fighter Group. The 354th was the first unit in Europe to be equipped with this new and revolutionary fighter, and on December 2nd it flew its first combat sortie, a fighter sweep, over Occupied France - without incident. On December 7th it escorted its first bomber stream of 8th Air Force B-17s, also without incident. At the time this aircraft would have been painted in the standard color scheme: olive drab with white identification bands. For whatever reason and against directives of the USAAF, it evidently flew these missions with the red rimmed US insignia. Perhaps the unit was too busy with other priorities to paint it out - but that's all speculation.
Sometime in April or May 1944, during the run-up for the D-Day invasion, the 354th received newer P-51s and this particular aircraft was converted to a photo reconnaissance model - known as the F-6B in this case - and assigned to the 10th Photo Group, 12th Photo Squadron. As part of the 9th Tactical Air Force, this unit was tasked with the mission of low level reconnaissance in support of ground attack missions during and after the D-Day invasion of June 6th.
With the 12th Photo Squadron, this aircraft was assigned to Lieutenant William D. Lacey Jr.
On July 30, 1944, Bill Lacey and his wing man, Lieutenant Robert G. Walker, departed their base near Le Moley to photograph a railroad junction behind German lines. Lacey was flying the 'number 2' position late in the afternoon when his aircraft was hit by ground fire. According to Walker's report, he saw Lacey's Mustang catch fire and he attempted to contact the pilot on his radio without any response. Within seconds the aircraft was engulfed in flames and quickly snapped over onto its back. At low altitude, even if Lacey were conscious and responsive, there was probably very little he could have done to save himself. In any case, he hit the ground at high velocity about 5 miles S.E. of Tessy-sir-Vire.
In May 2009, an excavation team arrived at the spot of Lt. Lacey's crash all those years before. The remains of his aircraft were recovered, including Lacey's survival kit and other personal items. The team was very sensitive to the fact that this was not just another crash site - but a man of valor had lost his life there. A memorial service was held in honor of Bill Lacey's sacrifice at the conclusion of the excavation.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=389904.0;attach=28556)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=389904.0;attach=28558)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=389904.0;attach=28554)
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Very nice. :aok
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Very nice. :aok
Thank you, Chairman. :salute
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As a self appointed P-51 guy I have a few problems with this one.
First of all this plane was in theater from Sept-Oct 43 until it's loss in July 44. Yet it looks brand new. This confused me since it appears you are skinning it as a F-6B. Which knowing the 354th as i do, those plane codes are not theirs. So the date for this 'skin' is May to July 44. If it is post June 6th it is missing it's invasion markings. As well as wear and tear and indications of an over paint of the plane codes. Also without a photo showing the red outline still in use it is more likely that the paint covering the red trim has worn off while buried.
Here is a 10th PRG F-6B post June 6th...
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=389904.0;attach=28560)
Also not sure that this is a suitable P-51B skin. As a F-6B it should show the cameras but that is almost impossible to show behind the pilot.
You cannot go off of a profile like that painter did, heck he even has the serial wrong. Its 43-12391
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1) That is the serial. Look again. Every OD B I've skinned has five or six numbers, omitting the prefix 4 or 43. Here are two examples of each.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=389904.0;attach=28562)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=389904.0;attach=28563)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=389904.0;attach=28565)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=389904.0;attach=28566)
2) I already have an F-6 in game so they're legal. I even added a fuselage camera.
3) I have the OD overspray of the paint codes and nose art modeled.
4) Looks like your bird has the red outline as well... There are others to boot.
5) I can always muss it up some like I did with "Janie Girl" (something I considered but haven't done as yet for a number of reasons). The plane had old markings painted over to apply new ones, so white stripes could have been reapplied. The lighting effects at those angles make the white stripes look fresh. They're not perfect on the modeled aircraft.
6) This scheme can be viewed as pre-D-Day, April-May 1944. But if not... As we have seen with other airplanes, invasion stripes were in various states post-D-Day. White. Black. Upper removed. Half fuselage. Full fuselage. Removed then partly reapplied. Black outlines. Three stripes vs five. The options are endless. I can always change them when evidence shows I should. No problem. (Fuselage invasion stripes would look pretty cool and I will add them if we determine they're accurate.)
7) How is paint going to "wear off" buried in a hole in the ground? The recovered aircraft does not indicate this.
With all that said, I went with the paint on the wreckage and the details provided by the recovery team. If you can disprove it I'll gladly change it, just like I did with the nose on "Horse's Itch" a few months back. I want to get it right and appreciate all input to that end. :salute
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As a self appointed P-51 guy I have a few problems with this one.
Also without a photo showing the red outline still in use it is more likely that the paint covering the red trim has worn off while buried.
Its definitely red.
(https://i.imgur.com/AgQ31IH.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/6VyXbdD.jpg)
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I said HE had it wrong, not you. His info has it listed as 42-312391.
Good photos Lyric.
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I said HE had it wrong, not you. His info has it listed as 42-312391.
Good photos Lyric.
Ah, copy. I was not looking at the prefix on your post closely enough. My mistake. :salute
It's probably a typo. Elsewhere he lists it properly as 43-xxxxx...
https://coles-aircraft.myshopify.com/products/p51-mustang-authentic-relic-display-ron-cole-aviation-art
And 312391...
https://coles-aircraft.myshopify.com/products/p-51-mustang-lacey-authentic-relic-display-ron-cole-wwii-aviation-art
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Its definitely red.
(https://i.imgur.com/AgQ31IH.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/6VyXbdD.jpg)
Good delineation/demarcation, too. Excellent find, Lyric1.
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Great skin, an interesting story and some good detective work too. :aok
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I suggest taking a look at Greebos and Devils Screen shots and trying to change the way you display your skins here on the BBS.
Your images are dark, with shadows obscuring the wings and other details. Try adjusting the time in game to give you more direct light and maneuvering the aircraft to allow for more light to cover the aircraft. Also climb a couple thousand feet or use an air spawn in one of the SEA terrains to instantly place you at 15K.
It's been great watching you improve over time, keep up the good work!
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I suggest taking a look at Greebos and Devils Screen shots and trying to change the way you display your skins here on the BBS.
Your images are dark, with shadows obscuring the wings and other details. Try adjusting the time in game to give you more direct light and maneuvering the aircraft to allow for more light to cover the aircraft. Also climb a couple thousand feet or use an air spawn in one of the SEA terrains to instantly place you at 15K.
It's been great watching you improve over time, keep up the good work!
Thanks a lot, sir, for the kind words. I've had a great deal of help from the crew on this forum learning this stuff. I am sure they are appreciative of your thoughts as welll.
I continue to try and get better shots. What you see tends to be the best I come up with after snapping dozens at various angles and light settings. It's not easy at all. I feel like the old days when we used disposable cameras and were lucky to get one or two good pictures out of an entire film roll/camera. Gives me renewed respect for others' abilities in this area let me tell ya'. :rofl
I try to use the shadows to create a realistic photo. Casting the pilot onto the wing, etc. The full-sun images don't look as good to me, but that could be an issue of angles not lighting. I will take this under advisement going forward. Thank you for the feedback. :salute
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Great skin, an interesting story and some good detective work too. :aok
Thank you, Olga (that's a Nigerian slang word for boss or chief--the head of the house). :salute
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Here is one option for weathering the stripes. This part is conjecture as we don't have anything that shows this--yet. Lyric is doing some more digging for me. Hoping to uncover some more info. Stay tuned.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=389904.0;attach=28569)
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Lyric, here is something else to look at. There are four Mustangs that are easily discerned in the original photo Fencer posted. Two have invasion stripes on the fuselage but it appears two do not. Am I wrong?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=389904.0;attach=28571) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=389904.0;attach=28575)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=389904.0;attach=28572) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=389904.0;attach=28577)
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Two have invasion stripes on the fuselage but it appears two do not. Am I wrong?
Seems like it.
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Not quite as good as Oboe is at it...but this is Lt. Lacey's likeness--for his skin. I thought it was a decent first attempt any way. :salute
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=389904.0;attach=28582)
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Seems like it.
Seems like I'm wrong? :D
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Lyric, here is something else to look at. There are four Mustangs that are easily discerned in the original photo Fencer posted. Two have invasion stripes on the fuselage but it appears two do not. Am I wrong?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=389904.0;attach=28571) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=389904.0;attach=28575)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=389904.0;attach=28572) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=389904.0;attach=28577)
I do not see any invasion striping on the fuselages of those planes.
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I do not see any invasion striping on the fuselages of those planes.
Cool. So the absence of invasion stripes post-D-Day is not an isolated case, lending a bit of credibility to the belief this airplane did not have them.
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Seems like I'm wrong? :D
Doh. No I don't see any.
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Nice work V! This is one skin I'll definitely use.
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So what is the date of the picture I posted? Is it June 10th? October 21st? July 20th? We do not know. So looking at other aircraft of which we have no history, time frame for their scheme or even whether they were around when invasion stripes were mandated, is not relevant to the skin in question. Which was around during D-Day and therefore had to have gotten painted.
Also, how do we know if they painted their group/squadron markings on it? They didn't on the one in the photo, but there is no photo of TX-T.
So IMHO you are guessing almost entirely at what this aircraft looked like. Are there not other aircraft out there that you can find photo references of to skin?
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So what is the date of the picture I posted? Is it June 10th? October 21st? July 20th? We do not know. So looking at other aircraft of which we have no history, time frame for their scheme or even whether they were around when invasion stripes were mandated, is not relevant to the skin in question. Which was around during D-Day and therefore had to have gotten painted.
Also, how do we know if they painted their group/squadron markings on it? They didn't on the one in the photo, but there is no photo of TX-T.
So IMHO you are guessing almost entirely at what this aircraft looked like. Are there not other aircraft out there that you can find photo references of to skin?
You stated that it was post-June 6th.
Here is a 10th PRG F-6B post June 6th...
If the photo is post-June 6th and we see airplanes without invasion stripes then that lends credibility to the people who did the research I have used as a basis for it.
I am going by what was excavated from the crash site.
If it was supposed to have invasion stripes then they can be added. If we are not sure then it will stay as it is and can be viewed by skeptics as a pre-June 6th iteration of the airplane.
I am taking evidence from multiple sources, including your very photo, to build the case that this is what the skin looked like. I have no emotional investment in whether or not it had invasion stripes. I will change it based purely on the evidence. If you guys can find more details for me I will use them. This is the safest version of it based on the evidence we have on hand, so that's what I have gone with--for now.
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Nice work V! This is one skin I'll definitely use.
Thanks, bro! :salute
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Ok I give up. :bhead
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Ok I give up. :bhead
We have the actual aircraft and an excavation team's report. What do you have? A picture you claimed was post-June 6th when you thought it refuted our research but now are unsure when it supports it.
If you have cold hard solid evidence to the contrary on this I will gladly use it. I don't think you will find it. It's hard to beat having the actual aircraft on hand.
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Quick update to the markings and a few added details.
It needs a redraw but this makes it a bit more useful in the MA. Original at bottom. It's amazing what a few minor tweaks can do to a skin.
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=389904.0;attach=36099)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=389904.0;attach=28556)
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:aok
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Nice.
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Good job on the update.
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Thanks guys. :salute
I wish I had been just a tiny bit closer with the "chase plane" when I took the shot. Next time...
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Great job, V. Amazing how the small details can add up to make a big difference overall. :aok
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Thank you, bro. (I tweaked a couple more things I noticed in the screenshots too make it a little better.)
Note to self: The proper fuselage code may be IX*T Not TX. The canopy rail could make the letter appear like a T instead on an I. 12th Squadron is ZM though.