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General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: FESS67 on November 06, 2019, 04:31:51 AM

Title: Question - Is the current dar setting working for the better?
Post by: FESS67 on November 06, 2019, 04:31:51 AM
Some time ago the radar setting was changed.  We tried the 'all seeing eye' but it finally settled on the 'if in range' option.  My understanding is it was changed because we wanted combat to be easier to find.

Is this working as intended?

For the limited time I play now what I experience is 80% of the time players use the dar to actively avoid combat.  As soon as we become visible they turn away.  That does not promote combat IMO.  I seem to spend most of my time chasing players to their ack that actually fighting them.  The proximity radar appears to give then enough advanced warning to make their run for home possible in most situations.

Narrative

In WW2 the bounce was a key feature of air combat and IMO the current radar features eliminate the bounce and promote more timid gameplay.  The radar in AH3 is displayed in real time and I can fly with the map up and track the enemy well enough to know when and in which direction he is turning  In multi bogey situations it is easier to determine threats using the map than it is to look out of the cockpit.  Once I evade the incoming con I get the map up and spot for the next one in.  That is more akin to modern electronic warfare systems and not a true reflection of WW2.

Proposal
Reduce the 'in range' range to 3k AND delay the update of the map by 30 seconds.  That allows a spotter aircraft to act as an AWAC however increases the opportunity for the attackers to successfully 'bounce' the opponents and hopefully increases the adrenaline rush of the dogfight.

Rules of the thread

I recognise that this alone is not going to turn the game around however I believe the future of the game should be based in combat.  There are a number of options available but the focus of this topic is the role of radar in the game and so I would ask you to please keep your posts relevant to this topic and not include ENY, map size or the Yak3 :p

Thanks





Title: Re: Question - Is the current dar setting working for the better?
Post by: hazmatt on November 06, 2019, 04:56:35 AM
I agree with this completely.

In WW2 the bounce was a key feature of air combat and IMO the current radar features eliminate the bounce and promote more timid gameplay.  The radar in AH3 is displayed in real time and I can fly with the map up and track the enemy well enough to know when and in which direction he is turning  In multi bogey situations it is easier to determine threats using the map than it is to look out of the cockpit.  Once I evade the incoming con I get the map up and spot for the next one in.  That is more akin to modern electronic warfare systems and not a true reflection of WW2.

The problem those of us that think this are going to have is that all those that want it to be an arcade game with instant action due to their short attention spans :(
Title: Re: Question - Is the current dar setting working for the better?
Post by: icepac on November 06, 2019, 09:04:02 AM

I concur.
Title: Re: Question - Is the current dar setting working for the better?
Post by: Shuffler on November 06, 2019, 09:52:28 AM
I am curious what you do when you just took off and see enemy coming in to your base.

I generally go out and ID them and check their alt. If they are not in the stratosphere I may stay to see if they come down. Otherwise I may fly on to a fight or land and find a fight.
Title: Re: Question - Is the current dar setting working for the better?
Post by: popeye on November 06, 2019, 10:50:39 AM
Overall, I'd say that the current "proximity dar" does promote combat.  It might be harder to bounce an unsuspecting enemy, but (to me) that isn't combat in a gaming sense.  I'd guess that for every bounce that is avoided, a sneak is detected.  It might be interesting to experiment with a slightly longer update interval than the current 5 seconds -- maybe 8 or 10 seconds (I think 30 is too long) -- to minimize the "realtime SA" effect.

Title: Re: Question - Is the current dar setting working for the better?
Post by: Oldman731 on November 06, 2019, 11:28:51 AM
Overall, I'd say that the current "proximity dar" does promote combat.  It might be harder to bounce an unsuspecting enemy, but (to me) that isn't combat in a gaming sense.  I'd guess that for every bounce that is avoided, a sneak is detected.  It might be interesting to experiment with a slightly longer update interval than the current 5 seconds -- maybe 8 or 10 seconds (I think 30 is too long) -- to minimize the "realtime SA" effect.


Agreed.  I think the current system works very well.

- oldman
Title: Re: Question - Is the current dar setting working for the better?
Post by: Shuffler on November 06, 2019, 11:45:55 AM
Maybe dar update can be used in place of eny when numbers are low. Fast planes live dar update. Slower planes longer dar update.
Title: Re: Question - Is the current dar setting working for the better?
Post by: Vraciu on November 06, 2019, 12:19:45 PM

Agreed.  I think the current system works very well.

- oldman

Yup. 

On first contact it would be nice if you could delay the target display until you look in the direction of the bad guy but I think it is way better now than before.
Title: Re: Question - Is the current dar setting working for the better?
Post by: Wiley on November 06, 2019, 02:43:50 PM
Personally I think it helps mostly because for some reason the vast majority of people don't seem to understand bar dar.  If it's not a little airplane on their map, it doesn't exist in their world.  Because of that I believe it improves peoples' ability to see the enemy and react to it when they are outside of the radar circle before their airfield gets covered up by the incoming aircraft.

Wiley.
Title: Re: Question - Is the current dar setting working for the better?
Post by: AKQwik on November 06, 2019, 04:26:39 PM
It has eliminated sneaking up on my six when I'm alone.  I keep my map up unless I'm engaged in a fight.  I also enjoy knowing what to expect at an enemy base if there is a GV or plane at that base.
Title: Re: Question - Is the current dar setting working for the better?
Post by: turt21 on November 06, 2019, 05:10:47 PM
I always liked the dar bar only. It taught you to keep looking around.  That system works very well in scenarios.
Title: Re: Question - Is the current dar setting working for the better?
Post by: pembquist on November 06, 2019, 05:24:37 PM
I think with the current numbers it is very helpful in generating fights. However it is very different from the old days. Much harder to sneak a goon in now, pluses and minuses with that.
Title: Re: Question - Is the current dar setting working for the better?
Post by: Vraciu on November 06, 2019, 05:34:24 PM
Personally I think it helps mostly because for some reason the vast majority of people don't seem to understand bar dar.  If it's not a little airplane on their map, it doesn't exist in their world.  Because of that I believe it improves peoples' ability to see the enemy and react to it when they are outside of the radar circle before their airfield gets covered up by the incoming aircraft.

Wiley.

The Dar Bar has limitations that are exacerbated with arena maps that are too big.   Understanding it/them isn't the issue.
Title: Re: Question - Is the current dar setting working for the better?
Post by: save on November 06, 2019, 05:36:35 PM
Agreed, xx secs delay and shorter "AWAC"  range would be a good way of implementing radar.
Title: Re: Question - Is the current dar setting working for the better?
Post by: atlau on November 06, 2019, 09:34:56 PM
I'd be curious if the kill/hr rate has changed with the different dar settings.

It's harder to sneak up on people so fights will generally.last longer when you engage but I think there are more engagements/time since you aren't having to play Marco polo looking for enemy fighters
Title: Re: Question - Is the current dar setting working for the better?
Post by: Vraciu on November 06, 2019, 09:51:21 PM
I'd be curious if the kill/hr rate has changed with the different dar settings.

It's harder to sneak up on people so fights will generally.last longer when you engage but I think there are more engagements/time since you aren't having to play Marco polo looking for enemy fighters

You would have to factor player numbers then versus now to come up with a meaningful number, but I think it is safe to say engagements per player hour would drop dramatically from today if it was eliminated.
Title: Re: Question - Is the current dar setting working for the better?
Post by: guncrasher on November 06, 2019, 10:42:11 PM
think a lot of you guys forgot back what it was like to head to a base with a full dar and not see any enemy fighters, there would be reports of somebody see 1 plane and not seeing 6 passing him by.

the new dar settings encourages fights.  some chose to run away, but then again if you see several coming your way, you would pull back and see where they are.  dar bar doesnt give you altitude, they could be above or below you.

think it was a good change and no reason to get rid of it.


semp
Title: Re: Question - Is the current dar setting working for the better?
Post by: save on November 07, 2019, 08:30:47 AM
Setting down radar downtime when it is destroyed would be effective against it. It favors the defender but if they want to fight they can find it.
Title: Re: Question - Is the current dar setting working for the better?
Post by: edge12674 on November 07, 2019, 09:32:36 AM
The Dar Bar has limitations that are exacerbated with arena maps that are too big.   Understanding it/them isn't the issue.

I agree with this totally!  SA is a crucial part of aerial warfare and should not be made too simple.  With the player base we currently have the maps should be much smaller.  This would help cut down on alt monkeys, cut down the hunting for combat, and provide quicker fights.  This makes it more appealing to new players.  The center island in the ndisles map is a good example of what HT should use as a "quick combat" arena.  Perhaps we could have just the center island where the fields cannot be captured, but the closest fields could be damaged.  You would have a good place for aerial combat (both B&Z and turnfighting) and a center town for ground warfare.

Perhaps we could treat aerial contacts like we do ground contacts.  Have a dar bar and square within the sector.  No info on how many or exact location/heading unless within radar coverage.
Title: Re: Question - Is the current dar setting working for the better?
Post by: icepac on November 08, 2019, 10:32:58 AM
Stealth is just as important as Situation Awareness but stealth has been removed from the sim.
Title: Re: Question - Is the current dar setting working for the better?
Post by: DmonSlyr on November 08, 2019, 10:50:54 AM
I liked the old radar better. That being said, the radar on the field should have been made harder to take down. The entire problem was that the dar would immediately be the first thing players would attack, very easily, which would end all of the dots showing up inside the radar circle. This caused the new players not to be able to see any dots around the base, thus they didn't know a fight was going on, since they dont really understand the darbar when they first start. Harder to take down radsrs means players would see the cons longer when they entered the radar circle. Personally, I dislike how one green guy makes all of the cons around him appear on the radar. This creates ganging and lines of players going to shoot the green guy. It also does take away from the stealth aspect. Also, perhaps changing the distance you see enemies to 3K would greatly reduce ganging, much like the FSO, when cons cannot see you from 5K out, they may be less likely to come help their friend triple dog gang you.
Title: Re: Question - Is the current dar setting working for the better?
Post by: waystin2 on November 08, 2019, 11:28:12 AM
I liked the old radar better. That being said, the radar on the field should have been made harder to take down. The entire problem was that the dar would immediately be the first thing players would attack, very easily, which would end all of the dots showing up inside the radar circle. This caused the new players not to be able to see any dots around the base, thus they didn't know a fight was going on, since they dont really understand the darbar when they first start. Harder to take down radsrs means players would see the cons longer when they entered the radar circle. Personally, I dislike how one green guy makes all of the cons around him appear on the radar. This creates ganging and lines of players going to shoot the green guy. It also does take away from the stealth aspect. Also, perhaps changing the distance you see enemies to 3K would greatly reduce ganging, much like the FSO, when cons cannot see you from 5K out, they may be less likely to come help their friend triple dog gang you.
Ganging is routine and expected in FSO. The icons have no bearing on this.  Last week my 109G14 was engaged by and eventually tore apart by 3-4 Seafires and an F6F.  A gang as you would say.  Food for thought.
Title: Re: Question - Is the current dar setting working for the better?
Post by: Mister Fork on November 08, 2019, 11:57:36 AM
The current dar - where you see aircraft on the radar if you can see them visually, is 100% historically accurate. I've said this before, every air control operations room had a map board with all known aircraft spotted by friendly aircraft who would report them in when detected. All a pilot would have to do is a radio call into ops and a plotter would take their information, update their position on the map board, and then tell them any other friendly or unknown/known enemy aircraft in their area, their type, location AND altitude (which we DON'T have on our map board.) In that case, WWII pilots sometimes had it better than we do with our map board.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/61/The_Operations_Room_at_RAF_Fighter_Command%27s_No._10_Group_Headquarters%2C_Rudloe_Manor_%28RAF_Box%29%2C_Wiltshire%2C_showing_WAAF_plotters_and_duty_officers_at_work%2C_1943._CH11887.jpg)

In essence, the updated map board system reflects that functionality 100%. It's just gamified to make it easier to use, and it makes it harder to surprise-jump an opponent (if they're in the map view). No different than you don't have to be continually adjusting your mixture, cowl flaps, engine heat management, prop adjustments, monitoring your oxygen system, and other aircraft systems usually required by WWII pilots... unless you're flying an FW-190.  The 190 was a pilot's dream from a cockpit management perspective.  :D

So, I'll take the map board and dar settings as a modified operations centre which we now call the CIC. :salute
Title: Re: Question - Is the current dar setting working for the better?
Post by: Shuffler on November 08, 2019, 01:17:55 PM
I have little people in my locker.
Title: Re: Question - Is the current dar setting working for the better?
Post by: DmonSlyr on November 08, 2019, 01:19:04 PM
Ganging is routine and expected in FSO. The icons have no bearing on this.  Last week my 109G14 was engaged by and eventually tore apart by 3-4 Seafires and an F6F.  A gang as you would say.  Food for thought.

Welllll I'm not saying it won't or doesn't happen in FSO. Nor would it stop ganging in the MA. I just think 3K makes it easier to drag planes away from the fight in order to separate them from their friendlies to reduce the chance of being ganged. From 5K out they can be-line it right to you and help their friendly. From 3k out, it makes it a little bit harder to be-line from 5k. 3-4 guys could still see you and follow you, though I find that with 3K distance, players who dont see you are less likely to roll in and gang you. Most of the time in FSO, I can drag cons away from their friends and have a easier time in a 1v1 or 1v2. If there was a 5K view in the FSO, I'd probably get jumped much more. Just something I've noticed.
Title: Re: Question - Is the current dar setting working for the better?
Post by: Shuffler on November 08, 2019, 01:20:42 PM
Welllll I'm not saying it won't or doesn't happen in FSO. Nor would it stop ganging in the MA. I just think 3K makes it easier to drag planes away from the fight in order to separate them from their friendlies to reduce the chance of being ganged. From 5K out they can be-line it right to you and help their friendly. From 3k out, it makes it a little bit harder to be-line from 5k. 3-4 guys could still see you and follow you, though I find that with 3K distance, players who dont see you are less likely to roll in and gang you. Most of the time in FSO, I can drag cons away from their friends and have a easier time in a 1v1 or 1v2. If there was a 5K view in the FSO, I'd probably get jumped much more. Just something I've noticed.

I judge ganging by weight, not numbers.
Title: Re: Question - Is the current dar setting working for the better?
Post by: whiteman on November 08, 2019, 01:28:08 PM
I use to like the strategy that went into looking at dar bars and trying figure an intercept path to jump the con/mission.
Title: Re: Question - Is the current dar setting working for the better?
Post by: guncrasher on November 08, 2019, 01:40:34 PM
FSO fights normally end in one big ganbang.

semp
Title: Re: Question - Is the current dar setting working for the better?
Post by: waystin2 on November 08, 2019, 02:12:54 PM
Welllll I'm not saying it won't or doesn't happen in FSO. Nor would it stop ganging in the MA. I just think 3K makes it easier to drag planes away from the fight in order to separate them from their friendlies to reduce the chance of being ganged. From 5K out they can be-line it right to you and help their friendly. From 3k out, it makes it a little bit harder to be-line from 5k. 3-4 guys could still see you and follow you, though I find that with 3K distance, players who dont see you are less likely to roll in and gang you. Most of the time in FSO, I can drag cons away from their friends and have a easier time in a 1v1 or 1v2. If there was a 5K view in the FSO, I'd probably get jumped much more. Just something I've noticed.
Of course orders can have a huge effect on how and when you engage the enemy and in what way.  That particular frame we were the first to find the carrier planes and we were the the tip of the spear so to speak.  Our job was to mix it up and boy howdy was it a fun one!  :aok
Title: Re: Question - Is the current dar setting working for the better?
Post by: Wiley on November 08, 2019, 02:32:24 PM
I use to like the strategy that went into looking at dar bars and trying figure an intercept path to jump the con/mission.

If you're the first one in, the gameplay is still the same.  For missions, you also have a much better chance of getting helpful friendlies once you're close enough for the mission dots to show on dar because once the dots appear, people will notice them as opposed to bardar or text on country channel.  I think it's a net benefit.

Wiley.
Title: Re: Question - Is the current dar setting working for the better?
Post by: CAV on November 08, 2019, 07:31:04 PM
Quote
Overall, I'd say that the current "proximity dar" does promote combat.  It might be harder to bounce an unsuspecting enemy, but (to me) that isn't combat in a gaming sense.


The radar settings of today makes Aceshigh feel like an arcade game.... not the combat simulation I was promised years ago. We may have easier combat to find, but at what cost? We have no unknowns left in AH... no need of luck or skill anymore.


“As a fighter pilot I know from my own experiences how decisive surprise and luck can be for success, which in the long run comes only to the one who combines daring with cool thinking.”

— Adolf Galland
Title: Re: Question - Is the current dar setting working for the better?
Post by: Vraciu on November 08, 2019, 07:51:59 PM

The radar settings of today makes Aceshigh feel like an arcade game.... not the combat simulation I was promised years ago. We may have easier combat to find, but at what cost? We have no unknowns left in AH... no need of luck or skill anymore.


“As a fighter pilot I know from my own experiences how decisive surprise and luck can be for success, which in the long run comes only to the one who combines daring with cool thinking.”

— Adolf Galland



Imagine the shock and surprise you’ll find when, after getting your wish, you’re the last player in the game.
Title: Re: Question - Is the current dar setting working for the better?
Post by: 1stpar3 on November 09, 2019, 11:24:27 PM
I think the ONLY change I would like,as too current Radar...That Bombers and Fighters show up as "DOTS". That way you cant watch map to get direction of travel or Plane Type. Might even agree with a delayed Update on Radar returns.
Title: Re: Question - Is the current dar setting working for the better?
Post by: hazmatt on November 10, 2019, 02:41:14 AM
In the current dar settings bombers show up as bombers and c47s show up on dar while on the ground? Haven't played for a bit so I'm trying to understand exactly the newest dar settings.
Title: Re: Question - Is the current dar setting working for the better?
Post by: pembquist on November 10, 2019, 11:04:12 AM
Hazmatt the way the dar works now is that anywhere on the map if a team mate is in a plane or a GV and is within a minimum distance of an enemy plane that enemy plane will show up on the clipboard map. The icons for planes are now fighter or bomber and are oriented in the direction of flight. I does not matter if the enemy plane is on the ground it will be shown regardless. What this means practically in the case of a c-47 is that they cannot hide on the ground parked below the 50' radar floor. Up a jeep at a V base and suddenly a bomber icon will appear suspiciously immobile and easily driven to. Likewise a torpedo run on the cv is even more futile as practically speaking if there are any planes in the air you cannot fly below the radar.

With low numbers I think this dar helps generate fights while at the same time not making it totally transparent where everybody is at all times.
Title: Re: Question - Is the current dar setting working for the better?
Post by: Lusche on November 10, 2019, 11:12:47 AM
Hazmatt the way the dar works now is that anywhere on the map if a team mate is in a plane or a GV and is within a minimum distance of an enemy plane that enemy plane will show up on the clipboard map.

Doesn't even have to be a team mate. Unless the settings have changed from earlier this year, you now get a perfect tail warning radar, with little need to look out for someone sneaking up your six or trying to spot that low level goon coming in.
Title: Re: Question - Is the current dar setting working for the better?
Post by: pembquist on November 10, 2019, 01:53:48 PM
For "team mate" substitute "you or a team mate"
Title: Re: Question - Is the current dar setting working for the better?
Post by: hazmatt on November 17, 2019, 08:18:12 PM
Thanks for explaining.

It seems that something on the ground shouldn't show up to me. Not sure how it showing up helps the game play.