Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Mongoose on May 22, 2020, 11:44:57 AM
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I have a question about when to flare when landing. I have a theory that it is harder to flare in a flight simulator than a real airplane because you can't feel the motion of the airplane.
Can a real pilot chime in on this? Is it really harder to flare properly in a flight simulator, or am I just a klutz?
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I imagine it is more tied to depth perception than actual feel. If you landed many times in a simulator, it would become a cakewalk.
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When you flare you are simply increasing the AOA to the point where you get less lift instead of more lift as well as more drag. This tends to drop you to the runway.
To practice fly low and slow over a long runway and flare gradually, don't make it an abrupt maneuver. Remember you're in ground effect so you have a little more lift than usual.
BTW you don't flare for carrier landings which is why they use stronger landing gear.
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I have a question about when to flare when landing. I have a theory that it is harder to flare in a flight simulator than a real airplane because you can't feel the motion of the airplane.
Can a real pilot chime in on this? Is it really harder to flare properly in a flight simulator, or am I just a klutz?
Depth perception in game is not the same.
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I have a question about when to flare when landing. I have a theory that it is harder to flare in a flight simulator than a real airplane because you can't feel the motion of the airplane.
Can a real pilot chime in on this? Is it really harder to flare properly in a flight simulator, or am I just a klutz?
I assume "the simulator" you're referencing is AcesHigh? If so, it's what Puma said.
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You don't have depth perception if you're using a monitor but you can learn the sight picture for the correct height from the relative size of the runway since this size is consistent in the game.
My explanation above was confused. When you flare you increase lift to level out and the increased drag slows you down and reduces lift.
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It's a damn sight easier and smoother in AH :old:
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It's a damn sight easier and smoother in AH :old:
Yeah, and you don't really die when you screw the pooch.
:salute
Sik
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Yeah, and you don't really die when you screw the pooch.
:salute
Sik
That’s a really important point. Not to mention scraping the paint or making someone bleed, which are the two original rules of aviation, developed by Orville and Wilbur.
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Vraciu PM'd me to mention that ground effect also decreases induced drag. :aok
Mongoose hasn't mentioned his specific problem with flaring but ground effect is modeled in Aces High.
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Thank you all for your replies. This has answered my questions.
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The amount of ground effect is proportional to the span of the wing and the height of the wing above ground. The book says if your wing span is 50 ft and you are 50 ft above the ground there is very little effect, at 10 feet there is about a quarter reduction in induced drag and at 5 ft it's close to half.
Because lift is increased in ground effect you need less AOA for the same lift coefficient.
I don't know exactly how it's modeled in game but you can see the effect if you fly low enough off one of the elevated fields in the TA bombing range.
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That’s a really important point. Not to mention scraping the paint or making someone bleed, which are the two original rules of aviation, developed by Orville and Wilbur.
A good landing allows the pilot to walk away and a great landing lets him use the airplane again. :aok
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A good landing allows the pilot to walk away and a great landing lets him use the airplane again. :aok
That’s a very important distinction! :rofl
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In Aces High a good landing is anything that leaves the fuselage on the runway.
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The primary factor in ground effect is a reduction in drag. Wingtip vortices are disrupted resulting in an almost 50% reduction in induced drag. The wing is not simply producing more lift as maximum lift is generated outside of ground effect. The wing is primarily experiencing an increased efficiency as the lift/drag ratio is improved. This is not because the L gets bigger in as much as the D gets smaller.
Reduced drag also allows the airplane to "fly" with far less thrust. It will also stall at a lower angle of attack.
It's extremely complicated but in essence it is a function of drag reduction not lift increase.
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Vraciu made that exact point in his PM.
However the coefficient of lift is also increased in ground effect so for a given AOA there is more lift in ground effect along with the drag reduction.
I assume this is because the circulation of air pushing the ground is more effective than air pushing air.
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The change in lift coefficient is marginal. The overriding factor is drag reduction.
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Every published reference mentions the lift increase but none of them describe it as marginal. They all seem to think it's the more noticeable effect.
It's what causes the " floating on a cushion of air " that makes the flare challenging.
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Any chart that shows the effect on lift shows it as marginal.
It's certainly not as big as the change in induced drag which is massive.
Wings create "more" lift only three ways:
1) Increase in airflow (speed).
2) Increase in angle of attack.
3) Increase in wing area.
Flaring is not the least bit challenging. It's slow flight at idle close to the ground.
The whole "cushion of air" sloppy language is where the problem lies. Vortices and their relationship to drag is the key to everything. That's why aspect ratios and winglets matter so much.
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Your point seems to be that increasing the coefficient of lift does not increase lift. Isn't that what slats and flaps do?
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Then, there’s the drag associated with landing gear up.......
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Had to land gear up in a Cessna 210 at Lafayette LA after a pin in the gear failed. Weird feeling when you sink lower than usual on landing. Very fond of ground effect as it saved my bacon one night in Bard CA when throttle linkage failed while spraying a cotton field. Quick check of mags, fuel valve, dump load, trying to remember what obstacles on other end of field
beyond reach of lights, I think I was actually pulling up on harness lol, so relieved to see a field of alfalfa across a road and ditch that the lovely ground effect helped me clear. Knees actually shook a little when I deplaned.
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Had to land gear up in a Cessna 210 at Lafayette LA after a pin in the gear failed. Weird feeling when you sink lower than usual on landing. Very fond of ground effect as it saved my bacon one night in Bard CA when throttle linkage failed while spraying a cotton field. Quick check of mags, fuel valve, dump load, trying to remember what obstacles on other end of field
beyond reach of lights, I think I was actually pulling up on harness lol, so relieved to see a field of alfalfa across a road and ditch that the lovely ground effect helped me clear. Knees actually shook a little when I deplaned.
You still make a living crop dusting?
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No, in 1970 or 71 we lost 2 pilots, 25% of us flying in the Yuma AZ area and my daughter was born all of which led to me deciding to quit my adrenaline addiction and seek other work.
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Vraciu made that exact point in his PM.
However the coefficient of lift is also increased in ground effect so for a given AOA there is more lift in ground effect along with the drag reduction.
I assume this is because the circulation of air pushing the ground is more effective than air pushing air.
The increased lift is primarily due to the disruption of wingtip vortices - the vortices, in addition to creating drag, allow high static pressure air to flow over the wingtip and onto the upper surface of the wing. This reduces the low pressure effect on the upper surface, reducing lift.
Mike
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I flew mostly taildraggers IRL, since we normally have 0 crosswind in AH, IRL landings are much harder, we said - as the main gear has touching the ground, you had half the work left - to keeping it from groundlooping. often landing on one main gear with the wing down into the wind
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I flew mostly taildraggers IRL, since we normally have 0 crosswind in AH, IRL landings are much harder, we said - as the main gear has touching the ground, you had half the work left - to keeping it from groundlooping. often landing on one main gear with the wing down into the wind
I agree. All my initial time was in Tdrggrs - Aeronca's, Cubs, Luscombes, etc.
If HT ever made landings like real life, crosswinds or not, very few would get a landed successfully without a lot of practice.
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Depend which piece of the landing you are speaking about.
The touch down is slightly easier in AH. But all the other parts of the landing like down wind, the judging when to turn base, and base to final. Speed and targeting touch down point are all way easier in real life.
As far as the rudder control on ground , the issue is that almost all your response in a tail dragger keeping it straight is do to feel of side load in the seat of your but. Hence one of those things there is no way to model it 100 % like the real aircraft and produce an accurate result.
HiTech