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Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: swareiam on November 20, 2020, 11:13:15 AM

Title: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: swareiam on November 20, 2020, 11:13:15 AM
(https://ahevents.net/images/B-26v109.png)

D-DAY "White Flag"

Event Write-Up here (https://ahevents.net/index.php/fso-setups/85-western-european-theatre/1293-d-day-white-flag).

December - AKWarHwk - Western Front 44-45
Setup/Bouncer: AKKuya

FRAME 1: December 4
FRAME 2: December 11
FRAME 3: December 18

Gentlemen,

Please begin to set your squad preferences on the AHEvent.org website for the month of December following tonight's final frame of the November event.

Enjoy your holiday!

Best Regards,
Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: RichardDarkwood on November 20, 2020, 11:52:30 AM
Looks good but the Axis plane choice is thin.

Will be a lot of fun.
Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: Arlo on November 20, 2020, 12:10:33 PM
Looks good but the Axis plane choice is thin.

Will be a lot of fun.

Thin doesn't matter if potent. ;)
Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: Mako- on November 20, 2020, 12:48:49 PM
325th already updated. Easy choice with 2 real sqd rides in there.

 :salute
Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: whiteman on November 20, 2020, 02:19:09 PM
325th already updated. Easy choice with 2 real sqd rides in there.

 :salute

That must be cool.
Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: Arlo on November 20, 2020, 02:32:01 PM
That must be cool.

Can't blame him. Must be. :)
Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: Spikes on November 20, 2020, 02:39:24 PM
That must be cool.
For real. :(
Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: Frodo on November 21, 2020, 12:41:06 AM
If you are going to allow the multiple choices to the Allied plane set you should do the same for the LW.

Allow the 190A8 or 190A5. Also allow the 109G6,G2, or F for the LW.

Also there were far more P51Bs than P51Ds at the time.

My 2 cents
Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: Arlo on November 21, 2020, 06:45:12 AM
JG11 has spoken!  ;)
Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: perdue3 on November 21, 2020, 09:21:38 AM
If you are going to allow the multiple choices to the Allied plane set you should do the same for the LW.

Allow the 190A8 or 190A5. Also allow the 109G6,G2, or F for the LW.

Also there were far more P51Bs than P51Ds at the time.

My 2 cents

I think it is fine, but the addition of an A-5 would not hurt anything.
Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: Devil 505 on November 21, 2020, 01:39:39 PM
If you are going to allow the multiple choices to the Allied plane set you should do the same for the LW.

Allow the 190A8 or 190A5. Also allow the 109G6,G2, or F for the LW.

Also there were far more P51Bs than P51Ds at the time.

My 2 cents

Well, there were no 109G-2's or F-4's or their equivalents in France by 1944. On the hand, there were definitely some 190A-4's, A-5's, and A-6's.
Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: Frodo on November 21, 2020, 02:53:24 PM
JG11 has spoken!  ;)


Nope just me.  :old: :devil
Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: Arlo on November 21, 2020, 04:29:09 PM

Nope just me.  :old: :devil

Frodo, from JG11, has spoken!  :D
Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: swareiam on November 22, 2020, 08:47:23 PM
The A-5 has been added in limited numbers.

No additional changes folks...
Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: swareiam on November 23, 2020, 09:16:20 AM
Gentlemen,

A note from the host...

This is a message to all squad leaders, CiCs and participants of FSO. First, I hope that everyone is safe and beginning to enjoy the holidays. Secondly, we all understand that the Aces High community, for whatever reasons, has suffered a high rate of player attrition. I am not here to discuss the fact, but here to let you know what adjustments are being made in this event to compensate a little.

CiC Duty

Some things you can expect for FSO in general are that there are currently less squads participating than in previous years, so you will find that CiC duties will come around much more frequently. Please expect to possibly experience this for the month of December when you see the listing of CiCs. You may possibly think to yourselves, "Hey, we just had the duty", and it is likely that you are correct. Please bare with us as we deal with the decrease in participating FSO squads.

Side Preferences

Yes, your squad's long term and monthly preferences are taken into account. But every now and then it will not be possible to provide your squad with they're request. If this occurs, I will apologize right now in advance. Your squad not receiving its preference is not an oversight more than it is a necessary adjustment to make the numbers work. Remember that it is part of the process to update your squad preferences in a timely fashion each month to include the number of pilots participating within your squad. This helps tremendously in ensuring that your preference can be met. If your request is still not met, we hope that there will be fun, excitement and new comrades developed if this occurs in reference to your preference.

Event Strategy

In this month's event as important as it has been in the past to shoot down and make score with enemy aircraft, that will not be the case in this event. Essentially, the Axis starts with a strong position to win the frame. It is up to the Allies to earn their way to victory and that will not include shooting down large numbers of enemy aircraft to edge out the opponent for the win. Please be mindful that this is an objectives based event similar to a base take in the MA minus GVs and an actual capture. If the goals and objectives are achieved, then there is victory, the absence of which is defeat. Those goals and objectives are clearly laid out in this month's write up (https://ahevents.net/index.php/fso-setups/85-western-european-theatre/1293-d-day-white-flag) under "Victory Conditions".

In Summary


These necessary and minor modifications in process, procedures, and strategy should allow planned forces, of the sizes that have been posted within the event write up, to achieve success with planning and teamwork. That is the hope...

At the conclusion of each frame you will be able to immediately determine the winner.

Best of luck gentlemen and again, enjoy your holidays as well as this addition of the Aces High FSO.

 :salute
Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: swareiam on November 25, 2020, 09:50:52 AM
Due to the Thanksgiving holiday assignments will be posted tonight.

Make sure that your preferences have been updated.

Thanks!

 :salute
Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: Mako- on November 25, 2020, 10:09:49 AM
That must be cool.

It's a first so pretty excited about this one
Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: SpinDoc1 on December 01, 2020, 08:48:14 AM
Loving this setup. I had a blast flying in "To the Winter Sky" this summer, the ground attack objectives made it a heck of a lot of fun!
Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: Devil 505 on December 04, 2020, 09:55:44 PM
I have some major misgivings about the rule set and objectives for this event. I was hoping that others would post about what seems like some obvious problems, but here I am as the lone voice. Hate to be "that guy" but someone needs to be.

The threshold for an Allied victory is way too easy to meet. How do you really expect the Axis to possibly compete in this event? Remember, this is an all-or-nothing victory condition, so in order to compete a side must have a reasonable ability to win. I just don't see it for the Axis.

You have B-26's and A-20's with the possibility of bomb-laden Jugs and P-38's. All that potential ordnance is tasked with white-flagging a single town, and destroying the radar tower, eight bunkers, and the vehicle hangar at a single base. That's an easy bar to meet in most FSO's where there's multiple targets and you designated only one target for this one. To be honest, I just assumed there was to be more than one target - until the objectives were Emailed showing just the one.

To make matters worse, there's the matter of the target base for Frame 1. A135 is only 4 miles closer to the nearest Axis base than it is to the nearest Allied one. With their speed advantages, this means that the Allies can potentially arrive at the target with heavy fighters before the defenders can. I tested the direct routes with a P-38L with 75% fuel and bombs against a 190A-5 with only 75% fuel and no DT. The 190 arrived over A135 only 1 minute sooner than the 38 - bombs out in 18 minutes. With a droptank, the 190 arrives after the 38 attacked.

But why take a droptank, you ask? Because the usual T+60 rule has been replaced with a T+75 rule. This gives the Allies a realistic window of 57 minutes to attack which the Axis have to be prepared for. The T+75 limit only makes sense if the targets are too far to fairly allow the attackers an attack before T+60. In this case, the Allies can attack 40 minutes before the usual limit. That's plenty of flexibility. The extended limit should not have been applied in frame 1.

I reiterate, how exactly do the Axis have a realistic chance to win?


The timing of this post is wholly intentional. Changes won't be made after the objective were released and this designer does not respond well to criticism in the first place. So this post does not serve as a call for changes so much as an "I told you so" for when tonight's frame becomes the inevitable dumpster fire.
Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: Chris79 on December 04, 2020, 11:01:00 PM
(https://iili.io/Kfsujf.png) (https://freeimage.host/i/Kfsujf)
Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: RichardDarkwood on December 05, 2020, 12:00:39 AM
I have some major misgivings about the rule set and objectives for this event. I was hoping that others would post about what seems like some obvious problems, but here I am as the lone voice. Hate to be "that guy" but someone needs to be.

The threshold for an Allied victory is way too easy to meet. How do you really expect the Axis to possibly compete in this event? Remember, this is an all-or-nothing victory condition, so in order to compete a side must have a reasonable ability to win. I just don't see it for the Axis.

You have B-26's and A-20's with the possibility of bomb-laden Jugs and P-38's. All that potential ordnance is tasked with white-flagging a single town, and destroying the radar tower, eight bunkers, and the vehicle hangar at a single base. That's an easy bar to meet in most FSO's where there's multiple targets and you designated only one target for this one. To be honest, I just assumed there was to be more than one target - until the objectives were Emailed showing just the one.

To make matters worse, there's the matter of the target base for Frame 1. A135 is only 4 miles closer to the nearest Axis base than it is to the nearest Allied one. With their speed advantages, this means that the Allies can potentially arrive at the target with heavy fighters before the defenders can. I tested the direct routes with a P-38L with 75% fuel and bombs against a 190A-5 with only 75% fuel and no DT. The 190 arrived over A135 only 1 minute sooner than the 38 - bombs out in 18 minutes. With a droptank, the 190 arrives after the 38 attacked.

But why take a droptank, you ask? Because the usual T+60 rule has been replaced with a T+75 rule. This gives the Allies a realistic window of 57 minutes to attack which the Axis have to be prepared for. The T+75 limit only makes sense if the targets are too far to fairly allow the attackers an attack before T+60. In this case, the Allies can attack 40 minutes before the usual limit. That's plenty of flexibility. The extended limit should not have been applied in frame 1.

I reiterate, how exactly do the Axis have a realistic chance to win?


The timing of this post is wholly intentional. Changes won't be made after the objective were released and this designer does not respond well to criticism in the first place. So this post does not serve as a call for changes so much as an "I told you so" for when tonight's frame becomes the inevitable dumpster fire.

After frame 1 I really don't have nothing to add to what Devil typed above.

Spot on Devil
Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: Arlo on December 05, 2020, 02:57:06 AM
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/98b4f75f033288505476bd35fc88bd31/tenor.gif?itemid=12343511)

Sometimes the odds are against you and you're losing the war. Give it your all, anyway. You know, like when the other side has a bunch of jets and rocket planes.

(https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-28-2015/2y6i7A.gif)

Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: perdue3 on December 05, 2020, 09:07:32 AM
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/98b4f75f033288505476bd35fc88bd31/tenor.gif?itemid=12343511)

Sometimes the odds are against you and you're losing the war. Give it your all, anyway. You know, like when the other side has a bunch of jets and rocket planes.

(https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-28-2015/2y6i7A.gif)

In October of 1944, what were the numbers? How many aircraft dod the Luftwaffe have and how many did the Americans have in Europe? This has nothing to do with the event.
Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: Arlo on December 05, 2020, 09:24:42 AM
In October of 1944, what were the numbers? How many aircraft dod the Luftwaffe have and how many did the Americans have in Europe? This has nothing to do with the event.

There's the spirit! Buck up, chin up, fight valiantly. :)
Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: Devil 505 on December 05, 2020, 09:48:06 AM
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/98b4f75f033288505476bd35fc88bd31/tenor.gif?itemid=12343511)

Sometimes the odds are against you and you're losing the war. Give it your all, anyway. You know, like when the other side has a bunch of jets and rocket planes.

(https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-28-2015/2y6i7A.gif)

Did you even read my post? I never once mentioned plane or number balance. They are non-issues in this case. My criticisms are entirely about objectives, target selection, and making an attempt to create an event where both sides can win.
Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: Arlo on December 05, 2020, 10:14:38 AM
Did you even read my post? I never once mentioned plane or number balance. They are non-issues in this case. My criticisms are entirely about objectives, target selection, and making an attempt to create an event where both sides can win.

My admiration grows
Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: RufusLeaking on December 05, 2020, 08:35:08 PM
The threshold for an Allied victory is way too easy to meet. How do you really expect the Axis to possibly compete in this event? Remember, this is an all-or-nothing victory condition, so in order to compete a side must have a reasonable ability to win. I just don't see it for the Axis.


I was CiC for the Axis. It was my "plan" that contributed to the debacle. Credit also goes to Allies good plan. But, there may be a balance issue.

A-20s flashed the field before the forward screen even got into place. Diving P-47s are unstoppable once over target. P-51D escorts also outperformed Axis airframes.

The frame was over in 40 minutes. Once the frame was lost, Axis guys were towering out.

Solution? Maybe Doras. Closer Axis launch fields. P-51Bs. B-25s. Bostons.
Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: Devil 505 on December 05, 2020, 08:52:58 PM
I was CiC for the Axis. It was my "plan" that contributed to the debacle. Credit also goes to Allies good plan. But, there may be a balance issue.

A-20s flashed the field before the forward screen even got into place. Diving P-47s are unstoppable once over target. P-51D escorts also outperformed Axis airframes.

The frame was over in 40 minutes. Once the frame was lost, Axis guys were towering out.

My point is that there was nothing you could have done with your plan that would have avoided a debacle. Good plan or bad, the result is exactly the same - Allies win easily.
Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: Spikes on December 05, 2020, 11:24:41 PM
My point is that there was nothing you could have done with your plan that would have avoided a debacle. Good plan or bad, the result is exactly the same - Allies win easily.
Perhaps that is an element of the design. Based on the Frame 2 objectives, by Frame 3, it looks like a much taller task for the Allies.
Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: Devil 505 on December 05, 2020, 11:37:15 PM
Perhaps that is an element of the design. Based on the Frame 2 objectives, by Frame 3, it looks like a much taller task for the Allies.

Based on what besides the target base being farther away?

Even if it was intentional, that still glosses over all the other problems I outlined, which apply regardless of target location.

And even if A135 was selected as the frame 1 target as some sort of grand plan, that does not change the fact that it's a frame crippling decision.

Does not matter if it's by ignorance or incompetence; either way, it's a major screw up.  An attacking force should never have the ability to arrive at a target before the defenders can.
Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: Arlo on December 06, 2020, 12:24:40 AM
Wooing with barbs of 'incompetence' and 'ignorance?' My apologies. Carry on.

(https://i.imgur.com/MrW5mUX.gif)

(https://68.media.tumblr.com/f740ddee469293e7f37f612ecd9a9879/tumblr_ndagqa3W161sl27r8o1_400.gif)

Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: AKKuya on December 06, 2020, 08:34:43 AM
Devil, I understand your concerns.  If we can step aside from the easy winning point for a second. 

Did the Axis CIC provide a plan for scouts to locate the bombers?  Did the plan have the usual patrol areas for defending squads?  Did the plan allow for defending squads to intercept located bombers?

If this is correct, then Axis had potential for stopping Allied from achieving victory.

In the spirit of design, any side could make a difference.  Or, fumble the ball.  If the players had a good time on both sides, then there was that level of success.

As a CM, I do see the designer's plan before the event takes place.  Maybe Frame 1 might be considered a cakewalk.  Frame 2 might be a toss up either way.  Frame 3 might be an Axis slaughter of the Allied side.  That's based on what's written down on paper with my interpretation.

As we all know in the game, those of us who have had CIC/CO duty.  We write the perfect plan on paper, send them out to the subordinate squads and once the planes are in the air.  The plan usually is tossed out the window due to the fluidity of combat.  Individual squads and individual players choices reflect the outcome of the event beyond the designer's and CIC/s control and expectations.

Please have faith in the designer's intent and look forward to Frame 2.  I expect a stronger defense from Axis and a harder push for Allied.

 :salute
Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: RichardDarkwood on December 06, 2020, 09:13:43 AM


Did the Axis CIC provide a plan for scouts to locate the bombers?  Did the plan have the usual patrol areas for defending squads?  Did the plan allow for defending squads to intercept located bombers?

If this is correct, then Axis had potential for stopping Allied from achieving victory.

 :salute


Scouts would have needed to take off at 10:45pm to be effective.


Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: Becinhu on December 06, 2020, 12:37:11 PM
I haven't seen the frame score yet but...when the 412ths heavy 47s arrived over target there were zero friendlies and at least two full squads of 109s and 190s waiting for us. Most of us got some ords off but we were decimated very quickly so I'm personally not seeing the axis slaughter...
Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: Arlo on December 06, 2020, 12:48:03 PM
If it's all about winning frames then just award every frame to Axis before it even starts. Problem solved.  :aok

Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: Bannor on December 06, 2020, 01:51:38 PM
Did any Allied players get a kill in the manned guns?
Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: edge12674 on December 06, 2020, 02:39:27 PM
Did the Axis CIC provide a plan for scouts to locate the bombers?  Did the plan have the usual patrol areas for defending squads?  Did the plan allow for defending squads to intercept located bombers?

If this is correct, then Axis had potential for stopping Allied from achieving victory.

As one of the squads assigned to scout duty in the 109G6 I can say "Yes" there was a plan in place. 

However, the plan was impossible due to the frame set-up putting the scouts so far from the defending base.  We tried to get to our scout sectors (west to southwest of the field) as fast as we could, forgoing alt for speed.  We were still about a keypad east of the field when town started flashing.  By the time we reached the field we could see field and town ack firing.  There was no time to get to the scouting sectors.
Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: Devil 505 on December 06, 2020, 03:02:30 PM
Devil, I understand your concerns.  If we can step aside from the easy winning point for a second. 

Did the Axis CIC provide a plan for scouts to locate the bombers?  Did the plan have the usual patrol areas for defending squads?  Did the plan allow for defending squads to intercept located bombers?

If this is correct, then Axis had potential for stopping Allied from achieving victory.

In the spirit of design, any side could make a difference.  Or, fumble the ball.  If the players had a good time on both sides, then there was that level of success.

As a CM, I do see the designer's plan before the event takes place.  Maybe Frame 1 might be considered a cakewalk.  Frame 2 might be a toss up either way.  Frame 3 might be an Axis slaughter of the Allied side.  That's based on what's written down on paper with my interpretation.

As we all know in the game, those of us who have had CIC/CO duty.  We write the perfect plan on paper, send them out to the subordinate squads and once the planes are in the air.  The plan usually is tossed out the window due to the fluidity of combat.  Individual squads and individual players choices reflect the outcome of the event beyond the designer's and CIC/s control and expectations.

Please have faith in the designer's intent and look forward to Frame 2.  I expect a stronger defense from Axis and a harder push for Allied.

 :salute

Yes, both LCA and the Bad Guys pushed to A135 as fast as they could get there. The 190's of the Bad Guys would be the soonest to arrive. I'm not sure how close they were before the base was attacked. For a fact, the base started flashing before there was a single report of an enemy.
Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: RichardDarkwood on December 06, 2020, 04:45:09 PM
Yes, both LCA and the Bad Guys pushed to A135 as fast as they could get there. The 190's of the Bad Guys would be the soonest to arrive. I'm not sure how close they were before the base was attacked. For a fact, the base started flashing before there was a single report of an enemy.

When the Bad Guys arrived there was A-20's hitting the town and P-47's hitting the field.
Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: Devil 505 on December 06, 2020, 04:49:13 PM
When the Bad Guys arrived there was A-20's hitting the town and P-47's hitting the field.

And you guys were first on the scene, right?
Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: Rocco on December 06, 2020, 05:14:58 PM
I'm not one to usually jump in on these but I just wanted to add a couple things.

According to the logs, the A20's were first allies to target and were all wiped out within 2 minutes of dropping. So they weren't much ahead of the defense. A race to target isn't new. I've been on the defending side having to race to get into position, only to see the ack already firing as we arrive. It sucks for sure, but we continued on and made them pay, which is what the axis did to this first wave. Another note, the frame objectives weren't achieved until a second sortie from the allies, around T+70. I can only speak to what I saw in B26's but the first run wasn't exactly a cake walk for us, we all came back shot up and missing wingmen. I've had worse times in a bomber but I've definitely also had easier.

As far as I know a design like this hasn't been attempted before, a purely objective based victory. I only ask we give it a chance from beginning to end.
Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: AKKuya on December 06, 2020, 05:39:12 PM
Just from the responses, it seems like the normal fluidity of combat. One squad went this way and another squad went that way.  The roll of the dice in decision making where each side made the best guess.

Aircraft from opposing sides did clash. Did everything go as planned? 

After making my pass over A135 Town, I wanted to egress with enemy fighters chasing me. It didn't happen.  Do you know I would love to be able to PM the enemy players to my location?  Making it back safely with bombers isn't fun for me personally. I want a running fight. That's me.  As a CM, I would never do that.  That's a Main Arena luxury.

We play FSO with the emphasis of guessing where the enemy is.  There is way more times of attackers being intercepted by defenders. On rare occasions, it doesn't happen.

Back to the OP, on paper it seemed like a new approach for setup. With new ideas, small snags can happen. FSO admins challenge themselves with new ideas. CM team discuss these way before the actual event.

Player input is critical after the Frame with new ideas.   Even if you don't think player input is being listened to.  It is.

Let's see how Frame 2 goes. Axis will have a better experience.   :salute
Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: RichardDarkwood on December 06, 2020, 07:15:17 PM
And you guys were first on the scene, right?

Yep
Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: RichardDarkwood on December 06, 2020, 07:17:17 PM
Another note, the frame objectives weren't achieved until a second sortie from the allies, around T+70.

Before the B-26's arrived the town was 5 buildings away from being white flagged and all targets on the base were taken out.
Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: Rocco on December 06, 2020, 07:49:52 PM
Last ammo bunker was destroyed by Dantoo at 23:15. Several barracks were destroyed on the second run as well but I don't know if 3 were already down from the first attack.
Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: RichardDarkwood on December 06, 2020, 08:08:53 PM
I re-watched my stream from that night and it looked a little bit different.
Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: Devil 505 on December 06, 2020, 08:39:30 PM
Last ammo bunker was destroyed by Dantoo at 23:15. Several barracks were destroyed on the second run as well but I don't know if 3 were already down from the first attack.

Every target was destroyed except the bunker that Dantoo killed and the town white-flagged before T+30
Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: TequilaChaser on December 06, 2020, 09:10:59 PM
I haven't seen the frame score yet but...when the 412ths heavy 47s arrived over target there were zero friendlies and at least two full squads of 109s and 190s waiting for us. Most of us got some ords off but we were decimated very quickly so I'm personally not seeing the axis slaughter...

Agreed

Was surprised to find out that the Allieds won
Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: TequilaChaser on December 06, 2020, 09:13:42 PM
Yes, both LCA and the Bad Guys pushed to A135 as fast as they could get there. The 190's of the Bad Guys would be the soonest to arrive. I'm not sure how close they were before the base was attacked. For a fact, the base started flashing before there was a single report of an enemy.

Just because it is flashing doesn't mean any enemy are insight from the base being attacked

Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: Devil 505 on December 06, 2020, 09:35:17 PM
Just because it is flashing doesn't mean any enemy are insight from the base being attacked

My point is that the attackers were in position to attack the target before the defenders could be in position to defend it.
Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: TequilaChaser on December 06, 2020, 10:18:30 PM


Well agreed


Just different perspective

Is this ok?


TC
Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: Devil 505 on December 06, 2020, 10:52:15 PM
Well agreed but that 1st wave basically got slaughtered not sure if any even survived

Do you not see the fundamental problem with this attitude given how the scoring system works?

The only way the Axis can defend the objective is to be in position to shoot bomb-laden Allied planes before they can drop their bombs. This was an impossibility in frame 1. The first wave dropped their bombs before they could be intercepted. How many survived in the end is not relevant since their job is over and successful. The kills of planes without bombs still on board is just a waste of ammo.


And all this discussion of the attack timing in Frame 1 only distracts from the greater problems with this setup, which are relevant regardless of when the attackers arrive. There are way too few target objects for the given number of assets who can carry bombs. The A135 distance problem only exacerbated the issue, but it was not the cause of it.
Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: AKKuya on December 06, 2020, 11:07:37 PM
Do you not see the fundamental problem with this attitude given how the scoring system works?

The only way the Axis can defend the objective is to be in position to shoot bomb-laden Allied planes before they can drop their bombs. This was an impossibility in frame 1. The first wave dropped their bombs before they could be intercepted. How many survived in the end is not relevant since their job is over and successful. The kills of planes without bombs still on board is just a waste of ammo.


And all this discussion of the attack timing in Frame 1 only distracts from the greater problems with this setup, which are relevant regardless of when the attackers arrive. There are way too few target objects for the given number of assets who can carry bombs. The A135 distance problem only exacerbated the issue, but it was not the cause of it.


The first wave to attack the target was a NOE raid.  Allied CIC created the orders for that.

Axis had no idea there was a planned NOE raid.  Tell me how is there supposed to be a fair way to counter a NOE raid?  Do the Allied and Axis CICs need to send each other their Orders to ensure defenders can be at the right place and right time?

Why was there no thought from Axis side to plan for the possible scenario of an Allied blitz?  If there is only a single target, then Axis planning didn't account for a NOE raid.

Did the Axis scouts take time to climb for altitude?  Did the Axis defending squads take time to climb for altitude?  Was the T+60 rule so ingrained for planning that the Axis assumed Allied planes would climb for altitude also?

Is your OP more a design issue or should this be a textbook example of one CIC set of Orders being more effective against another CICs set of Orders? 
Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: Devil 505 on December 06, 2020, 11:11:33 PM

The first wave to attack the target was a NOE raid.  Allied CIC created the orders for that.

Axis had no idea there was a planned NOE raid.  Tell me how is there supposed to be a fair way to counter a NOE raid?  Do the Allied and Axis CICs need to send each other their Orders to ensure defenders can be at the right place and right time?

Why was there no thought from Axis side to plan for the possible scenario of an Allied blitz?  If there is only a single target, then Axis planning didn't account for a NOE raid.

Did the Axis scouts take time to climb for altitude?  Did the Axis defending squads take time to climb for altitude?  Was the T+60 rule so ingrained for planning that the Axis assumed Allied planes would climb for altitude also?

Is your OP more a design issue or should this be a textbook example of one CIC set of Orders being more effective against another CICs set of Orders?

You obviously have not read what other the Axis players have been saying in this thread. Fighters were sent to A135 as fast as they could possibly get there expecting a fast, low-level attack. It was not possible for them to arrive in time to intercept the first wave.
Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: TequilaChaser on December 06, 2020, 11:11:53 PM
I edited my post above to act like a Xanax for Devil 😈, he is really getting worked up..

Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: TequilaChaser on December 06, 2020, 11:13:25 PM
You obviously have not read what other the Axis players have been saying in this thread. Fighters were sent to A135 as fast as they could possibly get there expecting a fast, low-level attack. It was not possible for them to arrive in time to intercept the first wave.

I'm sure that the FSO CMs have taken notice
Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: AKKuya on December 06, 2020, 11:16:29 PM
You obviously have not read what other the Axis players have been saying in this thread. Fighters were sent to A135 as fast as they could possibly get there expecting a fast, low-level attack. It was not possible for them to arrive in time to intercept the first wave.

I see.  Thank you for that clarification.

Frame 2 will have the Allied objective being farther away.  This should give Axis the time to properly setup a solid defense.

 :salute
Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: TequilaChaser on December 06, 2020, 11:31:08 PM
In all honesty the below quote is how I view it
Quote

or should this be a textbook example of one CIC set of Orders being more effective against another CICs set of Orders?


Go test your Axis interceptors flying fast and straight to the objective field to see if you can or cannot beat an NOE attack from any of the bombers or attack fighters....

Please post results here
Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: perdue3 on December 07, 2020, 03:45:54 PM
In all honesty the below quote is how I view it

Go test your Axis interceptors flying fast and straight to the objective field to see if you can or cannot beat an NOE attack from any of the bombers or attack fighters....

Please post results here

Devil performed this test prior to Frame 1. The result of that test led to his initial post. Frame 2 looks like it will be a much different story.

 :airplane:
Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: Vulcan on December 07, 2020, 05:46:37 PM
IMHO, and remember I've played FSO for a long long long time, the Axis are obviously playing far to sober.
Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: RufusLeaking on December 07, 2020, 06:00:49 PM
Is your OP more a design issue or should this be a textbook example of one CIC set of Orders being more effective against another CICs set of Orders?

As the Axis CiC, I own the plan. The Allies had a good plan. They also had many more options.

The plan was to scout west with single ships in a screen. The main defense force was to intercept from the target. The field was under attack while the high alt scouts were still east of the field.

The only way to counter the Allied advantage in the scenario is to have perfect knowledge of Allied orders.

On frame 2, the Axis will rush to defend against NOE, and high alt bombers with 1000 rounds in the tail guns and P-47s in unstoppable dives will destroy the target in 45 minutes instead of 30 minutes. The design has balance issues.

Once the target is destroyed, there is no scoring reason for Axis pilots to rearm and re-up. Axis in undamaged planes were towering out.

The fun of FSO is the suspense. Who is going to win? Will you survive? Frame one had no suspense whatsoever.
Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: Becinhu on December 07, 2020, 10:28:17 PM
As I stated before our squad was decimated by the axis defenders. I will say though as ( I know the FSO creators and CiCs have an overwhelming job to do and thank you for doing it) I have noticed this year in particular over any other of the many years that I have flown FSO there have been an a majority of months that have an gigantic imbalance issue. I'll use this frame as an example where the defenders had no chance to counter the initial strike, we have had frames with aircraft that weren't in the engagement (I know filling a plane set hole) where one side gets an overpowered monster instead of dropping to an older model, months where because some squads don't get their preferred ride or side just don't show up making a numbers imbalance, getting Bostons and your escorts decide to NOT escort you because they won't get kills, etc.

I don't know the solution. I do think however that some of these matchups need trashed...forever. If a FSO is planned where a proper plane set can't occur then that setup needs to go. Just my 1/2 cent.

Still love FSO. It is the only reason I am still around.
Title: Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
Post by: Spikes on December 08, 2020, 10:00:48 AM
I have noticed this year in particular over any other of the many years that I have flown FSO there have been an a majority of months that have an gigantic imbalance issue.

I think it is safe to say that the majority of the imbalance is due to numbers - not saying things don't play out perfectly all the time as we envision it, but with the numbers where they are at (low) it causes major issues when there is as little as a 2-4 pilot swing. We changed the commitment levels to better assist Admins with getting the numbers right, and I think it helps, but still relies on Officers caring enough to change their numbers month to month. With that said, it is understandable to not get numbers right every month/frame. We understand a squad might get an influx due to a holiday weekend whereas another squad might lose guys due to the same holiday.

Over the last few recent years we've had some trials and tribulations with designing new events to be fun, fresh, out of the box. Some work out great, some not so much. Some, we envision the perfect plan for both sides and the orders that go out make that go by the wayside. I personally think these 'assault' style setups (8th AF, attack only style) are the hardest to balance and get right. You basically have to assume the attacker will get to target with X amount of planes to determine what a 'reasonable' success rate is to determine points. I like WarHwk's change of pace with this month to make it objective based and not point based. You blow up your target, you win.

I don't know the solution. I do think however that some of these matchups need trashed...forever. If a FSO is planned where a proper plane set can't occur then that setup needs to go. Just my 1/2 cent.

Since I started to do Admin/design work 3 years ago I've heard it all - no more early Pacific events, no more setups with Stukas, no more 'assault' style setups, no more what-ifs, no more plane substitutions, no more lend-lease, etc. The issue is this rules out the majority of design possibilities, but I understand the various frustrations with some of these design elements. Hence why we've tried our best to avoid some of the most hated elements and work in new ideas to others.

With that said I think we always try to look back on the year and see what worked and what didn't, what could be improved, so feedback is always much appreciated.

:salute