General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: Mayhem on January 18, 2021, 06:27:17 PM
Title: Virpil VPC T-50 Mongoos CM2 vs CM3 Throttles.
Post by: Mayhem on January 18, 2021, 06:27:17 PM
Back during summer I purchased a Virpil VPC T-50 Mongoos CM2 Throttle. The CM2 was the best overall dual Throttle on the market at the time. In-fact the CM2 throttle itself is one of the major reasons I dumped over $1300 bucks on Virpil products at the time. Virpil had the best Throttle in the Cm2. Operative word here is "Had".
Virpil had been working on the CM3 throttle in secret since early 2020. The CM3 has some improvements over the CM2. I was a fairly upset that Virpil kept the CM3 secret until pre-orders came available in December and I was pretty vocal about this, fortunately Virpil gave me a really good discount on the CM3 which I received Friday.
This is my physical comparison between the two throttles. Keep in mind the CM2 and CM3 are practically identical in almost every way.
I would have to say with the improvements made to the CM3 over the CM2 and the Discontinuance of CM2 production makes the CM3 the best Throttle on the market right now. However some people may not like all the improvement's made to the CM3.
The biggest and most obvious change done to make the cm3 that improved it over the cm2 is the removable modular detent system.
The detent system is the biggest reason one would take the cm3 over the cm2. The detent system is probably one of the best I have ever seen and gives you more detent options than any other throttle on the market today including the Warthog. You can not only remove the detents but you can adjust them swap then out with different types detents and even mix and match them.
Even in prop sims you can use the locking detents and set up the throttle through the software to have an engine shutoff /Start up and WEP.
If you don't need the detent the rest of the improvements are going to be very minor and in some cases one may prefer the CM2 over the CM3.
the Second obvious change between the Cm2 and the Cm3 are the Throttle handle lengths. The CM3's Throttle handles are about 1/3rd of an inch longer than the Cm2's. This gives the CM3 slightly longer throw for slightly increased precision. However this makes getting to some of the bases buttons a little harder without taking your hand off the throttle handle.
In the left throttle handle the side rotary dial with push has been replaced with a plastic nob. I believe the CM2's metal version is better.
On the right Throttle handle the Buttons have been improved specially the lower two. They are bigger and more pronounced and the bottom one that everyone has a problem finding and seeing is now red instead of black.
The throttle handle lock has been changed on the CM3. It is a simple plastic slider. I prefer the older CM2 Handle lock ... It was metal required a two movements like the bolt on a bolt action rifle to work and it had heavy springs providing a lot of tension. This made it impossible to accidentally unchain your throttles which is not the case with the CM3.
The flaps axis handle now has textures to the top of it however, it is the same length and throw as the Cm2. Because the CM3 Throttle handles are higher you now have a slightly harder time working the Flaps axis without taking your hand off the Throttle. They should have increased the Flaps Lever axis handle proportionately with the throttle handles.
On the throttle base the rotary dials with push where replaced with plastic dials ... I believe the Metal dials are superior and higher quality but that is somewhat subjective.
The mode selector switch was changed slightly but is completely non-consequential ... it effects nothing and I have no opinion as to which is better on this the CM2 or Cm3.
That pretty much covers the physical differences between the CM2 and the Cm3.
Price-wise when I purchased my Cm2 it had just received a slight price increase due to demand and the Virpils new ordering system. I purchased my CM2 for €319.95 EUR That's $386.73 USD the CM3 by comparison goes for €369.95 EUR that's $447.17 USD. This does not include shipping, foreign transaction fees, duties, and taxes.
Is the price increase worth it? ... Yes if you need detents. If you have a CM2 Should you upgrade to the CM3? ... Only if you really desperately need detents. I would also like to point out their is a simple free detent system designed by users you can download and print with a 3d printer .... and I don't have a 3d printer yet. However Virpil's detent system is still superior.
If you only fly props is the CM3 better than a CM2? not really but unfortunately Virpil just discontinued the CM2 and it is no longer being produced.
In short the CM3 is an improvement over the CM2 but beyond the Detent system and longer throttle handles those improvements are not only minor but very subjective as many may prefer the CM2 over the CM3.
Me personally I really like the CM2 handle lock over the Cm3's But I'm really impressed with the modular detent system of the cm3. If it holds up I think it's a win. I think my biggest worry with the CM3 is the screws for the detent system may strip out.
Title: Re: Virpil VPC T-50 Mongoos CM2 vs CM3 Throttles.
Post by: Ack-Ack on January 19, 2021, 05:43:25 AM
Ordered the CM3 not long ago, just received email should ship in a couple of weeks.
Title: Re: Virpil VPC T-50 Mongoos CM2 vs CM3 Throttles.
Post by: Bruv119 on January 19, 2021, 06:50:12 PM
Thanks for the detailed comparison. :aok
Title: Re: Virpil VPC T-50 Mongoos CM2 vs CM3 Throttles.
Post by: atlau on January 19, 2021, 10:39:40 PM
Can get my hands on a warthog throttle for $230. Would you still pass on it for the CM3 for double the price? So far my TWCS seems to be doing OK but would like to have dual throttles.
Title: Re: Virpil VPC T-50 Mongoos CM2 vs CM3 Throttles.
Post by: Mayhem on January 20, 2021, 04:56:06 PM
Can get my hands on a warthog throttle for $230. Would you still pass on it for the CM3 for double the price? So far my TWCS seems to be doing OK but would like to have dual throttles.
I would have taken a full priced CM2 or Cm3 (Probably even the CM) over a free warthog throttle and I'm not knocking the warthog, I just like the Virpil Throttle that much.
I like Virpil so much that I currently have a full set of Virpil gear ... T50 Cm2 Grip, T50 CM3 Throttle (And a CM2 I plan on liquidating soon), the Ace 2 pedals, and I plan on getting more such as the Control Panel and the Collective that is coming out soon.
My 8 bit CH Pro Hotas gear was showing it’s age and I wanted to pass it on to my youngest son and get something better for myself. I wanted something that would last me for the rest of my life … I’m 50 and hoping I can at least make it to 75. I had the money for practically whatever control set up I wanted with the exception of some high end professional pilot simulation gear like Redbird.
I did my research, and it came down to the TM warthog, VKB, Winwing, and Virpil for my new HOTAS+R setup. What really did it for me and got me to go with Virpil was the CM2 throttle, as I felt Virpil had the best Throttle by far. It is better than the Warthog and much more comfortable in my hand. Virpil still has the best throttle with the CM3.
The only thing the CM2 did not have was detents but at the time all detent systems were lacking. Most lacked adjustability and some were just out right fixed. To me until the CM3 came out the CM2 was the best throttle on the market. The CM3 took what was great about the CM2 and made it better and it featured a fully modular and adjustable detent system.
For the stick it came down to the Virpil T50 Cm2 grip .... I really liked VKBs bases but I think virpil had the better Stick for me. I could have still gone for VKB specially since I think they have the better base for what I want, But I liked Virpils grip and pedals better and VKB still does not have a throttle. Since I needed a virpil base for my virpil stick I chose the virpil warbrd base because of it's simplicity, accuracy (32bit Controller with 16 bit magnetic sensors), and throw.
For the record you can put some really heavy springs in the Warbrd base but the biggest reason NOT to use LONG extensions is due to the range of motion or throw of the base. My Warbrd has 22Degrese of travel over the T50 CM2 base's 16 degrees. The CH Fighterstick does 24 Degrees but since the T50 grip sits so high on the base my stick has the same range of travel as the fighter stick BEFORE I toss on the extensions (50mm). Another really nice thing about Virpil bases is that they can except thrustmaster grips without modification or an adapter.
For rudder pedals it came down to Virpil Ace-2 (now called the Ace Collection,) Slaw MFG, and The TM Pedular Rudder system. The virpil pedals are on par maybe a little better than RX Viper V2 but are priced less. Because of my other choices I decided to keep as many of my control input devices as I can in the same manufacturers eco-sytem. For the record IMHO the VKB rudder pedals are probably the best bang for the buck pedals you can buy however, they are to narrow for me, and do not have toe brakes. The TM PRS is probably the best consumer/prosumer rudder pedals but they are expensive (Cost more than the Warthog Hotas) and didn't meet my needs as well as virpil and Slaw did.
I play wwII combat flight sims like AHIII and IL2: for that the cm2 is perfect, But I also play Modern Era Combat Flight simulators like DCS and Space sims like Elite Dangerous. Most DCS jet aircraft have afterburners and where on the throttle that the afterburner engages changes from plane to plane. Eagle Dynamics never made the afterburn activation adjustable, I think one of the Russian jets even engages it's afterburners somewhere around 50% or so. Elite Dangerous you need detents near the center to divide forward from backwards. So until the Cm3 throttle came out the Cm2 was the best throttle for my needs. Now the CM3 meets those needs even better and finally gives me a detent system I can use in most my games.
Honestly If it wasn't for DCS having each jet with a different afterburner cutoff and no option to set the cutoff in the game I would not have purchased a CM3 even at the incredibly low price I did for the CM3 (I got it a lot less than retail.) But I would have still taken the CM3 over the CM2 if I did not already have a CM2, but thanks to DCS the CM3 fits my needs better than the CM2.
That all being said what works for me may not work for you. If the Warthog throttle Meets your comfort and Functionality needs and the CM3 does not the reverse would be true for you.
Just as a warning Virpil’s configuration software while much much better and improved as of late it does has a learning curve and while it gives you a multitude of button and Axis configuration settings it does not do Macros or key binds. If you need Macro’s and Key binds for a game that lacks them you need to use an intermediary program like Joystick gremlin.
Different brands have different ways of handling Button programmability, Macros, and Keybinds.
Some use software to flash a Rom (Usually an EEPROM) This allows the controller to keep its Configuration including bindings after the flashing process without software as an intermediary program. The controller will keep its config between reboots and you can erven move it to another computer without the need to reprogram it. An example of this the old CH pro game-port Gear and Speedkeys.
Some use software to flash a RAM on the controller. This allows the controller to keep its Config binding after the flashing process without software as an intermediary program. However The controller can not keep its config between reboots and you can’t move it to another computer without reprogramming it as it loses it’s config when it loses power. An example of this the old CH pro USB Gear and the control manager software.
Last you have controllers that need an intermediary program between the hardware and game to handle the configuration Macro’s and Key binds. It’s all in software running on the system. You need the software running to make it work and example of that is probably be Razer and Logitech/Saitek products.
I’m not sure if TM Warthog has an EEPROM RAM or Needs an Intermediary program. I think the TARGET software actually does both Flashing And as Intermediary software as needed.
Virpil gear holds its button and axis configuration in an EEPROM including calibration, it can hold it through a reboot, and it can be moved to another computer without reprogramming or recalibrating it just does not do Macro's or Keybinds and I'm not sure that is a software hardware or memory limitation.
Title: Re: Virpil VPC T-50 Mongoos CM2 vs CM3 Throttles.
Post by: whiteman on January 22, 2021, 09:30:15 AM
This CM3 is great, have had it for a few weeks but was to sick to get on and use it. Quality is through the roof and between it and VKB MCG stick I have more buttons than I know what to do with. I get the feeling a CM2 would have been great but figured might as well get the latest.
Title: Re: Virpil VPC T-50 Mongoos CM2 vs CM3 Throttles.
Post by: Mayhem on January 22, 2021, 03:42:24 PM
Just a heads up and warning about the new 20210102 software .......
There is an experimental setting on the profile page for "Keyboard" that reads "Map Keys from 33..128 to keyboard press." with a check box for "Enable keyboard mapping" and "Modification:" with check boxes for "CTRL" "SHIFT" "ALT".
Don't mess with them ... especially don't mess with them if you have any of your buttons/switches in a Permanent on condition. of the Perm Two way switches I have two set as On/On and the other two as On/Off.
Lets just say I almost bricked my throttle. I also have a Computer Science degree, a Computer Information Services degree, A+ Certification, MCSE+I, a CNA certificate. And I;ve spent at 15 years work in I.T. ...... I'm not exactly a novice newb with electronics and computers.
Oh and for some reason Virpil removed all the warnings from the software so It wont warn about flashing your Virpil device with other virpil devices connected to your PC Unfortunately This is a known way to brick your device!
Title: Re: Virpil VPC T-50 Mongoos CM2 vs CM3 Throttles.
Post by: Gman on January 25, 2021, 01:18:28 PM
Heh, I had the same thing happen with the first 2 sets of Virpil throttles I bought, the very first version with the internal afterbuner detents, then 3 weeks later the next version came out, so I bought 2 of them, and then it wasn't very long after, that another version of it came out. Then the CM2s came out, and now I'm waiting on the CM3s I have ordered, should be a couple weeks they said on Friday when they bugged me again about giving them the serial numbers of my T50CM2 bases so they can send me the new free cams they've designed, which I don't even want as I have the bases dialed in just how I want them at the moment.
One thing I wonder about though is the height of the throttle lever from the top of the base unit - they changed this quite a bit, do you notice it much Mayhem, they said it gives it better throw or whatever. Other than reaching some of the buttons/hats like you said, do you find the actual movement of the throttle better, worse, or same?
I hope the buttons and switches/hats are of the same manufacture and quality with the CM3s, the CM2s have the best switches/hats out of any hotas product I've owned IMO.
Quote
Oh and for some reason Virpil removed all the warnings from the software so It wont warn about flashing your Virpil device with other virpil devices connected to your PC Unfortunately This is a known way to brick your device!
This is the single area of failure I too have criticized Virpil about. I sometimes have a T50CM2, a Warbrd, another T50 for left hand HOSAS+throttle for Star Citizen, plus a throttle, and also Virpil's peds, all plugged in simultaneously on one PC. I know many others in Star have multiple Virpil units, and have been very lucky not to brick their units by not unplugging them when updating. Changing grips as well, I have all of the Virpil grips + I use the TM stick for F16 sims, which means frequent grip changes, and just doing that without unplugging all the other Virpil units can brick units. Giant PITA to be honest, that is if you have even found out about this issue, which certainly wasn't made easy from Virpil at first - even now, it's not all that readily apparent for new users.
Title: Re: Virpil VPC T-50 Mongoos CM2 vs CM3 Throttles.
Post by: Mayhem on January 25, 2021, 09:04:28 PM
One thing I wonder about though is the height of the throttle lever from the top of the base unit - they changed this quite a bit, do you notice it much Mayhem, they said it gives it better throw or whatever. Other than reaching some of the buttons/hats like you said, do you find the actual movement of the throttle better, worse, or same?
I hope the buttons and switches/hats are of the same manufacture and quality with the CM3s, the CM2s have the best switches/hats out of any hotas product I've owned IMO.
I think one of my biggest gripes about the cm3 is the throttle lock. I prefer the Barrel bolt system from the cm2 however it can be a pain engaging and disengaging it. The new system on the CM3 is much much easier to engage and disengage but it but you are far more likely to accidentally lock or unlock your throttle. I personally turn it on and off depending on what I fly and I set it on taxi/take off.
So if I fly a f4u in aces I can engage it before I even pick a direction to fly off in and if I switch to a p38 I will unlock it before take off and leave it off through out the flight so that I have both throttles working.
The buttons on the handle are actually improved .... I actually think they are better than the CM2 and they made one on the very bottom red so you can find it easier, and the made the one below the 8 way with push and a dial bigger and easier to hit (It sticks out further).
The left side handle rotary dial + push and the two base rotary dials + push are now plastic however this is kinda subjective as some people say they like them better than the CM2s I have no opinion on the left hand side dial but I personally feal the metal base dials on the cm2 are better than the plastic ones on the CM3.
It looks like I'm going to sell my CM2 to a squad mate otherwise I would have swapped the base dials myself.
The throttle handles are about 1 cm higher than the CM2 and it really doesn't feel like it does much. It gives you slightly more precision but your probably not going to notice it much.
I really don't notice because I have a 5/80 Virtual detent on the CM2. This cuts out 25% of my in game throw and maps the remaining 75% to the full (100%) physical throw. This gives you much more precision as long as you can stay in that 75%. If you need to go over you have to turn off the detent and your back at 100% to 100% throw and you loose the extra precision.
That being said most the aircraft in DCS have their afterburners' kick in at different states of the throttle. For example on type of aircraft say a mig 29's afterburners kick in at 60% while a f18's afterburners may kick in at 85%. Eagle dynamics didn't think it was realistic to allow people to set the afterburner in game so you can match it to your throttle instead you have play with your scaling and curves to get them to match up with a fixed detent. I sure don't want to have to flash my profile every time I change planes to one that has a different afterburner cutoff.
This is why the adjustable modular detent system is such a selling point for the cm3. If Virpil went with a fixed detent or an internally adjustable detent I probably would have just stayed with the CM2 and used a virtual detent.
Again a lot of this is subjective and dependent on personal preferences what I like you may hate and what you dislike I may love.
Title: Re: Virpil VPC T-50 Mongoos CM2 vs CM3 Throttles.
Post by: Gman on January 26, 2021, 11:25:39 AM
Thanks Mayhem, that answers everything I wanted to know and more, great review IMO.
Do you plan on getting into Virpil's new helicopter collective unit(s)? They have a couple bases and sticks I'm sure you've seen in their forums - still wondering how they'll connect them to different chairs (I think dedicated sim chassis systems will be easier), but if they come up with something even 1/2 decent for connecting and mounting, I'm in.
Title: Re: Virpil VPC T-50 Mongoos CM2 vs CM3 Throttles.
Post by: Mayhem on January 27, 2021, 10:32:00 PM
Do you plan on getting into Virpil's new helicopter collective unit(s)? They have a couple bases and sticks I'm sure you've seen in their forums - still wondering how they'll connect them to different chairs (I think dedicated sim chassis systems will be easier), but if they come up with something even 1/2 decent for connecting and mounting, I'm in.
I was going to get a Komodo Simulations Collective but now that Virpil is producing one I'm going to wait .... I like keeping as many of my devices under the same manufacturer as possible. My only concern with the Virpil collectives other than over all cost is going to be mounting options.
I'm thinking of getting a TM-50CM2 base and running it springless with extensions and my TM-50CM2 stick as a floor mounted cyclic.
My Warbrd base has 22º of Throw. That's way way to much for a floor mounted base with long extensions regardless of spring tension. The CM2 only has 16º of Throw which is why they recommend it over the warbrd for long extensions.
Oh just as a heads up be careful flashing the firmware on Virpil devices with the last few updates. They reset your devices VID/PID which means windows will see it as a new device. This makes an awkward situation when you have to reprogram your device to work with those 12 DCS aircraft you have set up. You can change it back in the software if you remember or recorded what the original VID/PID was.
Title: Re: Virpil VPC T-50 Mongoos CM2 vs CM3 Throttles.
Post by: Ack-Ack on February 09, 2021, 09:43:04 AM
My CM3 is scheduled to arrive on the 12th. Have the J-PEIN desktop clamp mounts ready to go once the CM3 arrives.
Title: Re: Virpil VPC T-50 Mongoos CM2 vs CM3 Throttles.
Post by: Ack-Ack on February 12, 2021, 05:56:55 PM
It arrived today, still need to set up the CM3 and program it. A nice surprise came with it, a 1/100 scale die cast F/A-18 model with the Jolly Rogers squadron skin.
Title: Re: Virpil VPC T-50 Mongoos CM2 vs CM3 Throttles.
Post by: Mayhem on February 12, 2021, 07:05:43 PM
It arrived today, still need to set up the CM3 and program it. A nice surprise came with it, a 1/100 scale die cast F/A-18 model with the Jolly Rogers squadron skin.
All they sent me was a Vipil shirt pin and it was a cheap pin at that.
:(
But they did give me a discount since I had just purchased the CM2 a few months later .... Now I just need to sell my CM2 which I plan on offering it next week first to my squad than AH then to Ebay. I've seen used CM2s sell for more than I paid for my CM3 on Ebay.
Title: Re: Virpil VPC T-50 Mongoos CM2 vs CM3 Throttles.
Post by: SIK1 on February 12, 2021, 11:03:51 PM
It arrived today, still need to set up the CM3 and program it. A nice surprise came with it, a 1/100 scale die cast F/A-18 model with the Jolly Rogers squadron skin.
Whaaat?
Title: Re: Virpil VPC T-50 Mongoos CM2 vs CM3 Throttles.
Post by: Ack-Ack on February 13, 2021, 01:41:42 AM
All they sent me was a Vipil shirt pin and it was a cheap pin at that.
:(
But they did give me a discount since I had just purchased the CM2 a few months later .... Now I just need to sell my CM2 which I plan on offering it next week first to my squad than AH then to Ebay. I've seen used CM2s sell for more than I paid for my CM3 on Ebay.
Hah, I posted a pic of the pin I received as well Mayhem, on another site when AkAk posted the pic of the F18 model he got. You would think after spending $7200 with Virpil (it was $6,000 until this latest order which was over $1,200 for the new CM3 throttles), I'd rate higher than a pin/button. Still, it made me laugh seeing AkAk's model compared to my button pin, and the laughs are worth more to me than a model right now.
I'm impressed with the CM3s, Mayhem did a great review and there is no point in repeating what he's done, as I agree with all the points there. Virpil continues to improve their products, this is the 4th model of their throttle I own, and from the 1st variant to this latest CM3, there is obvious improvements with each version.
Title: Re: Virpil VPC T-50 Mongoos CM2 vs CM3 Throttles.
Post by: Ack-Ack on February 16, 2021, 06:53:36 AM
I'm impressed with the CM3 too. The only weak spot is the Virpil software, it's powerful but not very user friendly and limited in areas, such as programming KB commands to the throttle. However, one can use Joystick Gremlin, a free joystick utility program, to program the CM3 and any other controller you have.
Title: Re: Virpil VPC T-50 Mongoos CM2 vs CM3 Throttles.
Post by: Ack-Ack on February 16, 2021, 02:50:56 PM
One of the cool things about the LED lights is that they are rather useful, compared to other controllers with LED.
On my CM3, I moved mapped the radio channel shortcuts to the buttons with the LED lights and set the light colors to correspond with the radio channel, so I know at a glance what button is what chat channel.
Title: Re: Virpil VPC T-50 Mongoos CM2 vs CM3 Throttles.
Post by: Gman on August 10, 2021, 09:00:18 PM
This is my 13th order from Virpil, usually I'm a couple months behind when their new products come out, but I was fortunate to be online when their new collective units came out. They feel fantastic, I've got a couple sets of these units. Twist throttle models are a bit more $, but worth it IMO. I've been working on installing one of these on my DX Racing chair, so far so good, hopefully I can post some vids of these collectives working tomorrow. I might post some pics of the Hotas I currently use, I've been collecting them for a long, long time. VKB Gunfigher, 4 different types of custom rudder pedals, 4 Virpil throttles, 6 Virpil base units, lots of Monster tech mounts, 9 different grips, plus a bunch of CH and TM units.
This is the first collective though - great for the new helo modules that are out there.
(https://i.imgur.com/nWM2DN0.jpg)
Title: Re: Virpil VPC T-50 Mongoos CM2 vs CM3 Throttles.
Post by: hazmatt on August 12, 2021, 10:03:33 AM
Any of you guys gonna be selling your old stuff that is in decent shape? I need to replace my current gear but don't have the budget to buy new at the moment.
Title: Re: Virpil VPC T-50 Mongoos CM2 vs CM3 Throttles.
Post by: SIK1 on August 12, 2021, 12:27:53 PM
One of the cool things about the LED lights is that they are rather useful, compared to other controllers with LED.
On my CM3, I moved mapped the radio channel shortcuts to the buttons with the LED lights and set the light colors to correspond with the radio channel, so I know at a glance what button is what chat channel.
That is a great idea. I'll have to see if I can do that with my V1 throttle.