Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => Custom Skins => Topic started by: Vraciu on January 16, 2023, 03:51:42 PM

Title: US National Insignia Help - P-51B
Post by: Vraciu on January 16, 2023, 03:51:42 PM
"Peg O'My Heart" (s/n 43-12173) was one of the early Mustangs in the ETO and flew missions prior to the order to apply white identification bands.

In this picture there appears to be either the red surround on the national insignia or a painting over of same.   What is the correct color, blue or red?

Remember that the wreckage of S/N 43-12391 was found WITH the red surround still intact.  It was downed in July of 1944.

(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=406758.0;attach=36006)

(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=406758.0;attach=36008)

(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=406758.0;attach=36010)
Title: Re: US National Insignia Help - P-51B
Post by: oboe on January 16, 2023, 04:23:55 PM
Odd, if downed in July of '44, wouldn't it still have had full invasion stripes, above and below the insignia star?  Seems like there should be a white or black stripe above the star, but I see olive drab...
 
Title: Re: US National Insignia Help - P-51B
Post by: Devil 505 on January 16, 2023, 04:32:02 PM
I've seen MTO P-40's using the red surround insignia well into 1944.

Are there any other reference photos of this plane or it's squadron mates from the same period that can provide context clues?
Title: Re: US National Insignia Help - P-51B
Post by: Vraciu on January 16, 2023, 05:44:19 PM
Odd, if downed in July of '44, wouldn't it still have had full invasion stripes, above and below the insignia star?  Seems like there should be a white or black stripe above the star, but I see olive drab...

Depends on where the star came from and what section we are seeing IMHO.
Title: Re: US National Insignia Help - P-51B
Post by: Vraciu on January 16, 2023, 06:01:57 PM
I've seen MTO P-40's using the red surround insignia well into 1944.

Are there any other reference photos of this plane or it's squadron mates from the same period that can provide context clues?

Here are four...two are links...

http://www.354thpmfg.com/images/img/media/sas/img_1.jpg


https://assets.americanairmuseum.com/s3fs-public/styles/teaser_thumb_x1/public/freeman/media-400792.jpg.webp?itok=vslsT6mV

(https://www.swissmustangs.ch/var/m_7/71/71f/28906/9462086-43-12408_GQ-G_b.jpg)

(https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/var/resizes/Aircam-Aviation-Series/North-American-P-51B-C-Mustang/05%20North%20American%20P-51B-C%20Mustang_Page_35-960.jpg)

Title: Re: US National Insignia Help - P-51B
Post by: Vraciu on January 16, 2023, 06:10:25 PM
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/354-353d-p51b-lashden.jpg)

(https://www.historynet.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/Beantown-ground-crew.-scaled.jpg)

(https://www.354fg.com/files/cd5.jpg)
Title: Re: US National Insignia Help - P-51B
Post by: Devil 505 on January 16, 2023, 08:15:14 PM
I think GQ-U is your smoking gun. The red "L" on the flap is lighter than the OD green and the insignia border is darker. I'd go with dark blue.
Title: Re: US National Insignia Help - P-51B
Post by: SIK1 on January 16, 2023, 08:33:24 PM
I've seen evidence that would suggest the red surround was painted over with blue, and survived many, many years only to become visible after the blue had faded away. This was in a crash sight photo similar to the one V posted, except it was a US naval aircraft discovered in some tropical jungle.

That being said, keeping the red surround in the ETO, or even the MTO, wouldn't have the same potential for adverse consequences as it might in the PTO.

 :cheers:


Title: Re: US National Insignia Help - P-51B
Post by: whiteman on January 16, 2023, 09:36:08 PM
I've seen evidence that would suggest the red surround was painted over with blue, and survived many, many years only to become visible after the blue had faded away. This was in a crash sight photo similar to the one V posted, except it was a US naval aircraft discovered in some tropical jungle.

That being said, keeping the red surround in the ETO, or even the MTO, wouldn't have the same potential for adverse consequences as it might in the PTO.

 :cheers:




That was a VF-17 F4U, https://pacificwrecks.com/aircraft/f4u/17804.html (https://pacificwrecks.com/aircraft/f4u/17804.html)

I agree it’s blue, that red paint was resilient. The blue would fade and and have to be repainted to keep the red covered.
Title: Re: US National Insignia Help - P-51B
Post by: Vraciu on January 16, 2023, 11:36:46 PM
If paint FADES or still covers what is under it.

The wreckage above is a red border that was never covered.   I can see no other plausible explanation for its condition.
Title: Re: US National Insignia Help - P-51B
Post by: Vraciu on January 16, 2023, 11:37:33 PM
I think GQ-U is your smoking gun. The red "L" on the flap is lighter than the OD green and the insignia border is darker. I'd go with dark blue.

I think this is likely correct.
Title: Re: US National Insignia Help - P-51B
Post by: Greebo on January 17, 2023, 03:53:03 AM
I think given the date a red border overpainted with blue is by far the most likely explanation.
Title: Re: US National Insignia Help - P-51B
Post by: Vraciu on January 17, 2023, 11:02:15 AM
Okay,  I'll go with the darker blue.   Thanks everyone for the feedback :cheers: :salute
Title: Re: US National Insignia Help - P-51B
Post by: Vraciu on January 17, 2023, 11:11:58 PM
How's this?

(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=406758.0;attach=36012)
Title: Re: US National Insignia Help - P-51B
Post by: lyric1 on January 17, 2023, 11:48:20 PM
 :aok
Title: Re: US National Insignia Help - P-51B
Post by: Greebo on January 18, 2023, 01:53:17 AM
The colour looks good but I think the star should be a little bit bigger and the borders slightly thicker, the points of the star should be touching the border. This website (http://www.bowersflybaby.com/stories/army_paint.html) has some good diagrams of USAAF insignia showing what I mean.
Title: Re: US National Insignia Help - P-51B
Post by: Vraciu on January 18, 2023, 05:30:24 PM
Ah yes, I can tweak that.   It will only touch the inner edge of the border.   Got it, thank you.  Good catch.
Title: Re: US National Insignia Help - P-51B
Post by: Vraciu on January 19, 2023, 01:01:38 AM
How about this?

(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=406758.0;attach=36014)
Title: Re: US National Insignia Help - P-51B
Post by: Greebo on January 19, 2023, 01:55:50 AM
Yes, that looks much better.
Title: Re: US National Insignia Help - P-51B
Post by: Devil 505 on January 19, 2023, 08:26:34 AM
I like it.
Title: Re: US National Insignia Help - P-51B
Post by: lyric1 on January 19, 2023, 08:29:35 AM
 :aok
Title: Re: US National Insignia Help - P-51B
Post by: oboe on January 19, 2023, 08:45:00 AM
Looks great - that olive drab looks right on the spot, and the dark blue outline really adds a lot.  I wish Hitech would give us the option to select the old birdcage canopy as an option instead of the Malcolm hood, when appropriate.   
Title: Re: US National Insignia Help - P-51B
Post by: Vraciu on January 19, 2023, 11:03:03 AM
Thanks everyone.  I'm still tweaking the code letters, serial number,  and some other details. 

I agree with you Oboe that a birdcage option would be nice, by I definitely prefer the Malcolm Hood if I have to fly the B.
Title: Re: US National Insignia Help - P-51B
Post by: Vraciu on January 19, 2023, 11:05:07 AM
Do I need to thicken the border some more?
Title: Re: US National Insignia Help - P-51B
Post by: Devil 505 on January 19, 2023, 11:19:45 AM
Do i need to thicken the border some more?

Yes, it looks that way. Try going out 1 more pixel.
Title: Re: US National Insignia Help - P-51B
Post by: Vraciu on January 19, 2023, 11:01:38 PM
Here you go...



(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=406758.0;attach=36022)
Title: Re: US National Insignia Help - P-51B
Post by: Devil 505 on January 20, 2023, 01:24:55 PM
That looks better.