General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: nrshida on February 08, 2023, 08:03:19 AM
Title: Ethical question about AH
Post by: nrshida on February 08, 2023, 08:03:19 AM
Tricky one this. Someone asked on one of my YouTube videos which game it was. I was sort of assuming only former or present players would ever watch those. I told him and linked the download page. Now for it:
I don't know if I could - in good faith - recommend AH to a new player the state of gameplay and numbers being what they are. To my mind it feels like no one is doubting the game is in terminal decline and neither does HiTech given his New Year's announcement.
Thoughts?
Title: Re: Ethical question about AH
Post by: CptTrips on February 08, 2023, 08:10:45 AM
Tricky one this. Someone asked on one of my YouTube videos which game it was. I was sort of assuming only former or present players would ever watch those. I told him and linked the download page. Now for it:
I don't know if I could - in good faith - recommend AH to a new player the state of gameplay and numbers being what they are. To my mind it feels like no one is doubting the game is in terminal decline and neither does HiTech given his New Year's announcement.
Thoughts?
Did they ask for a recommendation?
Title: Re: Ethical question about AH
Post by: Eagler on February 08, 2023, 08:15:26 AM
Seems whenever I link AH to comments on a video on YouTube my post is removed...
Who are you to worry if it's in " good faith"?
Get over your high and mighty self already
Eagler
Title: Re: Ethical question about AH
Post by: nrshida on February 08, 2023, 08:34:03 AM
Title: Re: Ethical question about AH
Post by: oboe on February 08, 2023, 08:52:48 AM
If you love the game and gotten years of enjoyment playing AH, I don't know why you couldn't give it a solid endorsement. The "terminal decline" glide slope may be so shallow it could last for years-- so don't even go there. Plus, it's free to try for two weeks; no credit card is required. Anybody expressing an interest after watching your wonderful videos should be encouraged to check it out! I would even say Aces High is the classic MMOL combat flight sim.
I have seen an increase in nightly prime time numbers recently - it used to be barely over one hundred players on weekday evenings, and now its often above 125. 138 when I popped in last night. I think we are currently enjoying a little Renaissance as former players come back.
Regarding the state of gameplay - do you recall the old AH cartoon "Loose Rivets"? I wish I could find the complete set of these, but excepting low numbers, the topics covered then are the same as now - dweebs flocking to super planes (then the N1K, now the Yak-3), pilots who run rather than fight, hordes, etc.
*a cookie for anyone who can remember the brilliant creator of Loose Rivets. My memory fails me. I want to say it starts with "N" but just not sure.
:salute
EDIT: "Loose Rivets" was created by Duma. Can't find a single saved strip anywhere - even checked the Interent wayback machine. Dang, its disappointing - they were treasures.
Title: Re: Ethical question about AH
Post by: CptTrips on February 08, 2023, 09:13:32 AM
I tell them it is a 23 year old game where development has slowed to a ... “stable” state.
The population is a tiny fraction of what it once was, but the remaining players (while they remain above ground) are probably some of the highest skill prop-plane pilots you will fight against online.
Don’t judge based on the Melee arena. It is of marginal value. The true underlying value of AH, IMHO, are the player run historical events. Someone (I’m not going to ;) ) could make the argument that DCS and IL2 (and even WT) are technically more advanced, but I haven’t seen any that have the committed cadre of curated event organizers. At least that I have seen. That is a differentiator. IMHO, even though it might be an acquired taste, the Scenarios are the true unique jewel of AH. Otherwise it is an early 2000’s flightsim with an outdated monetization model, and an odd 3 country Melee configuration where gaming the game is the main game.
I’d recommend using the inadequate 2-week trial to get a basic feel and controls mapped, then use the offline AI missions to get some more gunnery practice, then commit to buying 3 months for a real trial, and participate in a historical scenario as soon as possible.
$0.02.
Title: Re: Ethical question about AH
Post by: SNO on February 08, 2023, 09:16:10 AM
With the exception of old players coming back and not exposing AH to new players how would the numbers ever increase?
Title: Re: Ethical question about AH
Post by: CptTrips on February 08, 2023, 09:25:44 AM
Yeah good points CptTrips and especially Oboe, whose points made me pretty sad. I'm stuck on CET and can't play in my evenings which pretty well puts me in the drainage-ditch of MA gameplay. The Duelling Arena is gone and all of the Special Events including KotH are out of my reach. I wouldn't recommend it for myself is the sad realisation.
But maybe others have different opportunities. I'll keep it upbeat and encouraging if anyone asks. Thanks for your input :salute
I apologise to Eagler for being high and mighty whatever I did there. :headscratch:
With the exception of old players coming back and not exposing AH to new players how would the numbers ever increase?
I was wondering if I could encourage any former players to return if they catch one of my videos. I've had about 2600 views in a month <Shrug>
Title: Re: Ethical question about AH
Post by: JimmyD3 on February 08, 2023, 10:08:22 AM
1 comment and 1 question.
Comment, I agree with Oboe's statement, for some reason cpttrip has an axe to grind with AH/Hitech, not sure why. I don't recall him ever making a supportive/positive comment regarding the game. If you enjoy the game, why not support it?
Question, What New Year's announcement??
Title: Re: Ethical question about AH
Post by: Dadtallica on February 08, 2023, 10:13:28 AM
for some reason cpttrip has an axe to grind with AH/Hitech, not sure why.
I do not. I just don't engage in the servile, groveling arse-kissing that tends to go on around here.
I call it like I see it. Sometimes I see positives, sometimes negatives. As time goes by, more negatives pile up and less new positives are developed.
NRShida asked for what I would consider as an honest appraisal of the current state of the game. I answered.
One main negative I forgot Shida should mention is the deep rooted group-think political correctness that they will run into in the community. The boards are full of self-appointed political commissars enforcing only glowing expressions of admiration discipline. I understand that comforts some, but ignoring problems seldom solves them. The first step towards fixing a problem is to look at it without flinching.
I believe I mentioned both good and bad points. I'm sorry if that falls out of the commissars manual of right-think.
Title: Re: Ethical question about AH
Post by: nrshida on February 08, 2023, 10:33:35 AM
NRShida asked for what I would consider as an honest appraisal of the current state of the game. I answered.
Yeah I did as I know he always answers with sincerity even if it's sometimes a bit too unpasteurised for non-Texans :rofl I agree that all things have positives and negatives and we should be able to freely discuss those things.
No foul I think. Were some convincing arguments which changed my mind. YouTube vids are at least incidentally a promotion of AH. Just wasn't clear how to address such a question.
Title: Re: Ethical question about AH
Post by: oboe on February 08, 2023, 10:43:23 AM
@nrshida - Cheers, old boy! I certainly didn't mean to make points that would sadden you! To the contrary, AH is currently on an upswing after all - player numbers seem to be steadily climbing, we have active YouTube content creators (you!) generating interest, we have the potential for up to 64 (count 'em!) skins per aircraft now, and as CptTrips pointed out we have special events that are the jewel of AH.
There is a terrific special event going on right now in fact, Saturdays at 7PM EST. Late War ETO tactical air combat - B-26s, escorted by '51Bs, '38Js, and P-47s pounding targets in occupied France as they try to help Allied armies race to Paris for its liberation. German fighter defenses are superb as always, with a dedicated cadre of experienced Luftwaffe flyers putting up potent resistance. This event is almost in your time frame - a bit on the late side, but well worth staying up for on a Saturday night a few times a year. Walk-ons are welcome! Scenario play is so different and to my mind so much more immersive fun than the MA, but both have their place. I love being part of a team executing a plan, against another team executing their own plan, and flying against period-correct enemy aircraft on a realistic-looking terrain.
Speaking of MA play, there is just no other sim I've found (except for Warbirds back in the day) where a new player can step in and immediately feel like part of the action. AH's built in voice comms let newcomers see and hear the action going on right away. IL-2 Great Battles and DCS WWII are fantastic in their own right, but I always feel sort-of isolated when I log into multiplayer servers there. I know the other players are real people, but it often feels more like single-player to me. They just don't give me the immediate sense of energy I get when I login to AH.
We have new terrains now making their way into the game. And perhaps above all, the advantage the Ace High runs well on middling gaming machines - system requirements have gone up over the years, sure, but they are well below what IL-2 and DCS require for playable fps. Not sure about War Thunder's requirements.
BTW, I may be the only one who doesn't really pine for AH in its heyday, back when numbers were so large it had to be split into two servers (Orange and Blue, IIRC). Titanic Tuesdays combined everyone into a single server but it seemed like it was too much for the server as there was weirdness going on - I seem to recall unusual warping or issues with rubber bullets and stuff like that. To me, AH's sweet spot is about 250-300 players in the MA, and we are almost halfway there! With decent sized maps and ~100 players per side, you could find (or create) action all over the map. Sure there were the usual hordes, but there was room for small group actions in other areas, or you could lone-wolf if you wanted.
:salute
Title: Re: Ethical question about AH
Post by: nrshida on February 08, 2023, 10:43:42 AM
Title: Re: Ethical question about AH
Post by: Shuffler on February 08, 2023, 12:02:34 PM
Interesting as you said the person asked what game it is. You didn't say they asked your opinion. They evidently wanted to know based on the video. Just tell them what game it is and let them form their own opinion.
Title: Re: Ethical question about AH
Post by: nrshida on February 08, 2023, 12:11:41 PM
Interesting as you said the person asked what game it is. You didn't say they asked your opinion. They evidently wanted to know based on the video. Just tell them what game it is and let them form their own opinion.
I'm trying to incorporate the AH banner into future videos like Steely does:-
Title: Re: Ethical question about AH
Post by: CptTrips on February 08, 2023, 12:12:24 PM
Tricky one this. Someone asked on one of my YouTube videos which game it was. I was sort of assuming only former or present players would ever watch those. I told him and linked the download page. Now for it:
I don't know if I could - in good faith - recommend AH to a new player the state of gameplay and numbers being what they are. To my mind it feels like no one is doubting the game is in terminal decline and neither does HiTech given his New Year's announcement.
Thoughts?
what's so tricky about? Just tell him what you said here. Three sentences? It's not like you're recommending a retirement plan. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Ethical question about AH
Post by: nrshida on February 08, 2023, 12:46:00 PM
Why do you care. You said you were tired of AH BS, you'd ended your subscription and would never play AH again, you were packing up your CH stuff and maybe selling it, and you were too old for games. Also you and ethics in the same sentence might cause a catastrophic worm-hole of contradiction which would even suck Texas into oblivion.
Title: Re: Ethical question about AH
Post by: -gg- on February 08, 2023, 12:50:35 PM
You asked for thoughts and those were my thoughts.
You're full of drama and angst. LOL
Do you have ethical questions when choosing a salad dressing too?
Title: Re: Ethical question about AH
Post by: CptTrips on February 08, 2023, 12:50:39 PM
A finer example of transference from your childhood you will seldom find on this forum. :rofl
Title: Re: Ethical question about AH
Post by: DmonSlyr on February 08, 2023, 01:08:35 PM
The game doesn't have to change... just some stupid maps need to go (4) and a slight ENY adj on some planes (B26s Yak3 190D). Is it that freaking hard to ask? :bhead
It's an awesome freaking game but the flight distances for small fights on a huge scattered map where everyone is in a 190D isn't winning over the fighter crowd and it's just stupid when I log in on a Saturday afternoon and it doesn't look like a damn thing is going on. Most people can only take Jabo sorties to a base 10 minutes away for so long...
Title: Re: Ethical question about AH
Post by: -gg- on February 08, 2023, 01:20:57 PM
nshida, have you considered consulting a lawyer before potentially getting yourself into hot water by possibly recommending (or not) AH?
Or maybe you could meditate or pray about it.
Do you fast?
Title: Re: Ethical question about AH
Post by: JimmyD3 on February 08, 2023, 01:45:33 PM
Does rather undermine a good troll doesn't it, not fully grasping the OP.
No one said they were bright. The obviousness of their trolling has become a pretty pathetic scream for attention and best ignored, outside of the nod and fake smile reserved for crazy hobos with that direct and shout at traffic.
Title: Re: Ethical question about AH
Post by: -gg- on February 08, 2023, 03:31:06 PM
"they"
it's a conspiracy!
nshidder, I hope you've resolved your inner conflict with recommending AH. That must be stressful. I don't envy you in this situation.
Title: Re: Ethical question about AH
Post by: steely07 on February 08, 2023, 04:48:02 PM
Tricky one this. Someone asked on one of my YouTube videos which game it was. I was sort of assuming only former or present players would ever watch those. I told him and linked the download page. Now for it:
I don't know if I could - in good faith - recommend AH to a new player the state of gameplay and numbers being what they are. To my mind it feels like no one is doubting the game is in terminal decline and neither does HiTech given his New Year's announcement.
Thoughts?
I'm seeing these too, have had a couple, I can't help but think they're bots trying to build up their profile on YT by making comments, for what purpose, I don't know, the 2 I've seen have around 10 subscribers, but no uploaded videos if you click their name and go to their page...
Title: Re: Ethical question about AH
Post by: steely07 on February 08, 2023, 04:49:47 PM
If you love the game and gotten years of enjoyment playing AH, I don't know why you couldn't give it a solid endorsement. The "terminal decline" glide slope may be so shallow it could last for years-- so don't even go there. Plus, it's free to try for two weeks; no credit card is required. Anybody expressing an interest after watching your wonderful videos should be encouraged to check it out! I would even say Aces High is the classic MMOL combat flight sim.
I have seen an increase in nightly prime time numbers recently - it used to be barely over one hundred players on weekday evenings, and now its often above 125. 138 when I popped in last night. I think we are currently enjoying a little Renaissance as former players come back.
Regarding the state of gameplay - do you recall the old AH cartoon "Loose Rivets"? I wish I could find the complete set of these, but excepting low numbers, the topics covered then are the same as now - dweebs flocking to super planes (then the N1K, now the Yak-3), pilots who run rather than fight, hordes, etc.
*a cookie for anyone who can remember the brilliant creator of Loose Rivets. My memory fails me. I want to say it starts with "N" but just not sure.
:salute
EDIT: "Loose Rivets" was created by Duma. Can't find a single saved strip anywhere - even checked the Interent wayback machine. Dang, its disappointing - they were treasures.
I've archived all the loose rivets, can email them, or send another way if you'd like :)
Title: Re: Ethical question about AH
Post by: Dadtallica on February 08, 2023, 05:49:33 PM
I have prayed and meditated on this grave subject all day and I've reached a preliminary conclusion...
I know you're poking fun, but do you realize how tricky this one is?
Picture having an extremely popular YouTube channel featuring aces high videos. Someone suddenly asked you which game this is.
Naturally this will set off a moral dilemma. An ethics question rocking you to the core. What do you do? Sure, you might go ahead and point to the game so that The very simple question will be answered. But it goes further than that.
What if you are suddenly asked if you could recommend the game? This throws a whole new set of variables into this daunting equation.
How do you even begin to decide whether or not to recommend a game like this? There are so many implications either way.
Title: Re: Ethical question about AH
Post by: -gg- on February 08, 2023, 07:30:13 PM
Maybe we could all get on discord voice chat and roleplay the scenario?