Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Custom Skins => Topic started by: oboe on May 23, 2023, 10:39:17 PM
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"Dorothy K", flown by Lt Tallmadge Ambrose of the 373rd FG, 410th FS. Not sure of the color of the tail flash. Most sources show as dark blue, one model kit box art shows it as yellow. I thought the red piping along the edge of the antiglare paint was attractive, and its interesting how the antiglare paint has an upward sweep on the dorsal fin.
This one is a little less restrained in the environmental map than the others have been. Still have some layer level adjustments to make.
(https://i.imgur.com/CbqTcF3.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/s1pYNQC.jpg)
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That metal work is just amazing.
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Nicely done, Oboe. :salute
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Not sure of the color of the tail flash. Most sources show as dark blue, one model kit box art shows it as yellow.
(https://i.imgur.com/CbqTcF3.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/s1pYNQC.jpg)
For some strange reason I think dark blue. :headscratch:
(https://i.imgur.com/BRd3z6Wh.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/6wWeWf7h.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/cxzSxAwh.jpg)
Still survives I think.
https://www.airfighters.com/photosearch.php?cod=42-28473%20%2F%202Z-P
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Great looking skin Oboe. Looking at the B&W photo it seems possible the fin flash colour may have been yellow at some point, so either colour could be right. Of course it could be some quirk of the film or a lighter shade of blue, so its good you have the colour photo as a solid reference.
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I'll go with the blue, and darken it more.
Apparently the shield emblem is an unofficial 373rd thing; its always checked in one corner and solid color in the other, separated by a band, but the colors can vary (by squadron?). I also found a 42-28473 skin in IL-2 Great Battles P-47D-28; they went with a yellow tail flash and just green and yellow on the shield. But in the color photo lyric found, the solid color lower left almost looks dark blue, and the checkered area appears green and yellow.
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Darker blue tail flash, widened the shield emblem & added a black section to the front cowl seen in some profiles.
(https://i.imgur.com/vciUN46.jpg)
The pilot, Lt Talmadge Ambrose, once shot down FOUR Fw-190Ds in one day - on 8th April 1945. Another fact, as Lyric pointed out, the airframe survived the War and had been restored and kept at the Planes of Fame East outside of Minneapolis, MN. So I have seen this aircraft in person - though it was painted in 56th FG colors. Apparently it was a hand-me-down to the 9th AF from the 56th.
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Ha! That's cool!
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Maybe I should do this one next:
(https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-onlfmumimm/images/stencil/1280x1280/products/12451/1510/rmg4155__18912.1652901472.jpg?c=1)
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Oboe, I love the box art!
That black cowl section got me looking at the cowl in the reference photos. Here are my observations and thoughts:
1. Having a black section to the anti-glare makes no sense in general. OD green is clearly available since the fin fillet was painted OD after it was installed in the field.
2. In the color photo, what looks like a black section is probably a shadow cast from the prop blade. Seem in line with the shadow cast by the vertical stab.
3. In the B/W photo, the dark section of the anti-glare panel is just where a dark band in the original page scan meets the anti-glare.
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Devil, thanks for looking closely and mentioning your thoughts - you made me pay closer attention and I caught something else that is off - between the photos and profile - I need to move the "R3" to the rear, closer to the insignia. I relied on the profile for that spacing and its clearly wrong.
Regarding the black section, I take your point about the illogic of the color black, as the IL-2 skin and Eduard model box cover show. I'm not convinced its a prop shadow, but I wonder if it could be a replacement front cowl ring, with a newer/darker OD green - perhaps the same shade used by the 56th FG, that I used on my 56thFG "Pat" P-47D-25. "Dorothy K" did originally come over to the 373rd from the 56th. The dividing line between dark and light appears to be midpoint on the left lobe of the heart, and this is pretty close to the boundary between the cowl ring and the other cowl panel sections.
What if I just finished it with a newer/darker OD green in that section, instead of black? The width of the darker color would be about the same as the red band on "Balls Out", pictured above...
Thanks for helping me get this one right!
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Devil, thanks for looking closely and mentioning your thoughts - you made me pay closer attention and I caught something else that is off - between the photos and profile - I need to move the "R3" to the rear, closer to the insignia. I relied on the profile for that spacing and its clearly wrong.
Regarding the black section, I take your point about the illogic of the color black, as the IL-2 skin and Eduard model box cover show. I'm not convinced its a prop shadow, but I wonder if it could be a replacement front cowl ring, with a newer/darker OD green - perhaps the same shade used by the 56th FG, that I used on my 56thFG "Pat" P-47D-25. "Dorothy K" did originally come over to the 373rd from the 56th. The dividing line between dark and light appears to be midpoint on the left lobe of the heart, and this is pretty close to the boundary between the cowl ring and the other cowl panel sections.
What if I just finished it with a newer/darker OD green in that section, instead of black? The width of the darker color would be about the same as the red band on "Balls Out", pictured above...
Thanks for helping me get this one right!
Good point about it coming from the 56th FG. I didn't consider it the first time you mentioned it, but it may just be a cover-up of the red cowl ring. I think a darker green would be better than black.
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I finished the change and it looks, well, odd - and I'm not sure if I converted to B&W it would look dark enough to approximate what is going on in the real B&W photos.
All this is guessing, but is there any chance it could be the same color as the tail flash - dark blue - as a recognition device? Seems odd to me, as it seems unlikely dark blue would stand out well enough against the drab to be effective as an identification aid.
EDIT:
Found some more info! Here is a picture of 42-28473 before she was assigned to Talmadge Ambrose. This is where the wide black band came from. This image is from a discussion on BritModeller forum.
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=407428.0;attach=36448)
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I finished the change and it looks, well, odd - and I'm not sure if I converted to B&W it would look dark enough to approximate what is going on in the real B&W photos.
All this is guessing, but is there any chance it could be the same color as the tail flash - dark blue - as a recognition device? Seems odd to me, as it seems unlikely dark blue would stand out well enough against the drab to be effective as an identification aid.
Here's a closeup of the B/W photo.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vT1WZxLV/Dorothy-K-Closeup.png) (https://postimg.cc/PvjL6x7X)
Nothing on the cowl is dark enough to be black. It seems to me that the darkest area is caused by the curvature at the front as you can see the forward part of the heart also darkens there. There seems to be a middle tone above the heart, but it's only slightly darker than the area just forward of the cowl flaps and is no darker than the areas aft of the cowl flaps. Furthermore, the demarcation in the tones above the heart do not match the dark spot in the color photo.
Maybe the best option would be to put the skin on the D-25 with a completely OD anti-glare to match the B/W photo? Of course, that reopens the fin cap color can of worms.
Edit to address your edit with the photo of Ruth II:
The cowl color seems to match the location of the dark spot in the color photo, but not the first B/W photo. I wonder if the new photo is making red look black and it was only covered later when the fin fillet was attached.
The progression in that case would go like this
Ruth II with red cowl ring --> Dorothy K with no fillet and red anti-glare --> Dorthy K with fin fillet and dark anti-glare.
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Naw, I just finished taking her back to the original wider black band on top. The discussion on BritModeller and the photo of her as "Ruth II" was the clincher for me.
https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234939914-p-47-colours-bw-detective-skills-required/ (https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234939914-p-47-colours-bw-detective-skills-required/)
The color photo also shows evidence of a wide dark band; I don't think is shadow, since it appears the sun is high in the sky and shining from the back right (leaving the left side of the dorsal fin in shadow). One thing for sure, this A/C has seen alot of changes through out her service. Yellow tail flash, blue flash, no flash - at least 3 different themes. Looks like once she got the heart, there still wasn't an arrow through it for a while, and the name "Dorothy K" wasn't added til later. It appears in the B&W photo there is a script name placed entirely below the heart.
I prefer her as a D-40 (actually a D-28 with a field mod to add the dorsal fin - perhaps this mod was done as she was being turned over to the 9th AF). There are a lot of D-25 subjects to do, many more than D-40s, so happy to have this one on the D-40.
EDIT:
More info on wide black nose bands:
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=407428.0;attach=36450)
P-47 Thunderbolts including (serial number is 44-20230) at Mount Farm in August 1944. The black nose bands on the aircraft indicate they have not been assigned to a unit, and are likely on a delivery flight from Burtonwood. 44-20230 flew with the 53rd FS, 36th FG and more than likely retained the black nose bands throughout her tenure with the Squadron. 53rd airplanes flew with either bare cowlings or black nose bands, while her sister 36th FG squadrons flew with red (22nd FS) or black/yellow (23rd FS). They are likely being prepped to cross the channel to join up with the 36th on the continent. Image by Robert Astrella, 7th Photographic Reconnaissance Group. Written on slide casing: 'Mount Farm.'
Here's the Eduard Dorothy K model box art, which matches the IL-2 skin:
(https://www.britmodeller.com/reviews/eduard/kits48/jugsovergermany/boxtop.jpg)
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Omg I want to build all those models!
One of my fave P47 skins ins the N white diamond. (Forget the #) The black band in the pics is super cool!
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It's your skin, so do it how you like. But I don't see any black on that cowl and I see no reason for it to be black. You claim the plane came from the 56th FG, the cowl ring was red in that case.
Just to illustrate how red can sometime appear blackish in B/W photos, look at the emblem on this 109F cowling.
(https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-109F/JG2/images/Messerschmitt-Bf-109F4-Stab-III.JG2-Hans-Assi-Hahn-WNr-7183-France-1941-03.jpg)
Now here's a 190 with the same emblem so show where the red parts are
(https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Fw-190A/JG2-III/images/Focke-Wulf-Fw-190A-9.JG2-(Y4+I)-Siegfried-Schnell-WNr-746-Vannes-France-Feb-1943-04.jpg)
Same exact 190 from a different angle. Red parts are very dark.
(https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Fw-190A/JG2-III/images/Focke-Wulf-Fw-190A-9.JG2-(Y4+I)-Siegfried-Schnell-WNr-746-Vannes-France-Feb-1943-06.jpg)
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Very nice.
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Thank you, Fencer.
Devil, here is the text from Joe Baugher's serial number site. It shows that 42-28473 was initially in the 56th FG:
28473 (MSN 2135) 61st FS [HV-P], 56th FG, 8th AF, Boxted, Station 150; "Big Chief"; 410th FS [R3-F],
373rd FG, 9th AF; "Dorothy K". In mid 1996 was with Planes of Fame (East) at Minneapolis as NX47BP
It does omit the aircraft's time as "Ruth II", however. But we have clear photographic evidence of 228473 as "Ruth II".
I want to be as accurate with skins as circumstances allow. In this case, we have a WWII color photo, B&W photo, a few artist's color profiles, model box art, model decal sets, and a discussion of the scheme at Britmodeller website.
We know the aircraft came over from the 56th FG, and spent some amount of time as "Ruth II", with a wide, dark cowl band. (I think it's likely "Ruth II" was painted in Red). This band seems wider to me than the 56th's red cowl, but does seem to match the width of the black bands painted on unassigned aircraft by the facility at Burtonwood. (not sure if she may have spent rehab time there after the 56thFG, before being transferred to the 9thAF?)
We know the dorsal fin was a field mod, added after her time as "Ruth II". We know the B&W photo shows her at an earlier time than the skin depicts, since the kill count is lower, and the nose art script "Dorothy K" is not present, or at least obvious, and the arrow piercing the heart is missing.
Of all these details, the most important resource I think we have is the period color photo. This does seem to show a wide dark section on the top front cowl, which could be consistent with the wide dark band from "Ruth II". Model makers and the IL-2 skinner have settled on the band being black. The B&W photo challenges this assumption, but I think the color photo, being more recent, has precedence. I think its clear from the color photo its not a red band left over from the 56th's red cowl band.
Also, as much as I like the look of the red & yellow checkerboard on the shield from the color profile, the WWII color photo doesn't show any red-orange on the shield. It appears to be a yellow & green checkerboard with a yellow diagonal stripe. So I'll make that change too.
This will also be consistent with the IL-2 skin and Eduard model.
The color photo vs the B&W also settles the debate for me on the color of the tail flash. The skinner and the model show the flash as yellow, and the B&W photo indicates a light shade such as yellow, but I'll stick with the dark blue as it appears on the WII color photo.