Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: batdog on December 30, 2002, 08:56:44 AM
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You know... I've noticed how many seem to have a neg rep w/this BBS. Now..I've seen a couple go off the deep end but there are several who seem to approach things in a more "relaxed" manner. Why do they get nailed so hard when ever they post something they feel is incorrect?
I remember myself and TAC use to post stuff on the 38... over and over and over but I dont ever remember catching sh(* over it?
Does the mob rule? Am I smoking crack? Will there be a tomarrow? Who the hell wrote that movie Annie?
FatBat
P.S. This is simply a discussion... a thought... dont freak please.
P.S.S. Oh and I'm flying 109's alot lately..dont worry, I'm to lazy to ever do any research to try and say something is wrong. They seem to rock anyway... awesome rides.
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Sex , lies and videotape, thats your BBS in a nutshell.
Any chance for discussion or humor went out the window along with the " Old Community " in about 1.06 .
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Originally posted by batdog
Does the mob rule? Am I smoking crack? Will there be a tomarrow? Who the hell wrote that movie Annie?
Tomarrow! Tomarrow! It's only a spellcheck awaaaaaaay!
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Originally posted by Shane
Tomarrow! Tomarrow! It's only a spellcheck awaaaaaaay!
Yea yea... so I put an A in place of an O....
Thanks Shane.
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Originally posted by batdog
Yea yea... so I put an A in place of an O....
Thanks Shane.
just doing my part to abuse luftwobbles.
:D
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Originally posted by Shane
just doing my part to abuse luftwobbles.
:D
Baaa.... as the troll says: (http://ubbsmile.free.fr/smileys/troll.gif)
Go away little boy before I eat you.
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Originally posted by batdog
Baaa.... as the troll says: (http://ubbsmile.free.fr/smileys/troll.gif)
Go away little boy before I eat you.
the troll is moving too fast to flap effectively. the fangs and fur drag coefficient are also undermodeled
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Originally posted by batdog
snip
Why do they get nailed so hard when ever they post something they feel is incorrect?
There's so much prejudice in this world, yanno. People see those leather jock strap and kneeboot with swagger stick and nipple ring outfits, and they just over-react ;)
culero (runs like hell)
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Originally posted by Shane
the troll is moving too fast to flap effectively. the fangs and fur drag coefficient are also undermodeled
I want data! Hard data!
FatBat
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Originally posted by culero
There's so much prejudice in this world, yanno. People see those leather jock strap and kneeboot with swagger stick and nipple ring outfits, and they just over-react ;)
culero (runs like hell)
Hey..its empowering. The only problem I have is that my leather thong maintains an bellybutton smell regardless of how many times I wash it. I gotta keep fresh ones.
FatBat
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Well I people are really wondering about this then it's a good thing.
Basically people see that it's ok to bash the LW. They know that if they say something that makes fun of of a LW or if they use the term Luftwhiner or anti-LW conspiracy to make fun of a person that somebody will come into the thread and share in the laughter and congradulate them on how clever and cool they are. It's no different than little kids in a playground, they want to belong and feel like a part of a group - often this is most easily done by having a designated easy target group, especially one that is distinctly defined and different. Thats why there is the term luftwhiner. You see everyone complains about the game, you said it yourself you questioned about P38, others like lazs whine endlessly about fast planes and bombers, others about LA7, aothers about Nikis. A whole group of people think P47 is supposedly porked and tons of people complain about Spit 14 model. Funked and fester quit or threaten to quit a lot. All these certainly fit into the "allied" whines but nobody ever mentions them tigether or invents a category for them.
And then there is is the issue of HTC responsibility here or rather irresponsibility. I have seen Hitech, the owner and head honcho here obviously, make fun of people on the BBS in public as Luftwhiners. It doesnt take a genious to see the enabling effect his stupid statements on the idiotic childish people here who want to belong to the big group and fit in. I mean if even the top guy here makes fun of a group of people then surely they are designated target and its condoned to attack them. To bring back the playground analogy it is if a school teacher made fun of a group of kids, how whould the other kids treat that group. And yes I think people act very childish on these boards.
Now obvously there are extreme cases of stupid whines by LW people, just as there are stupid extreme whines by everybody. and the most extrme should be dismissed of course. But since a LW guy is immideatly tied into the luftwhiner idea it just builds up while every other extreme whine is forgotten. Thus you quickly get a hostility towards any person associated with LW often when they post even a most reasonavble innocent question - they just go ahead and classfy it as luftwhine and make fun of that person. Their friends jump in and reinforce them and their behavior by statintg in some manner how clever their use of the word luftwhiner or conspiracy was and just how really funny they are and how much this is all so good.
Anywhay this is what happends and why it seems to happend.
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Grun... I think some indiv's in the past more or less "built" this reputation for whatever reason. I think the stigma is simply sticking to others now.
I also think that going off the deep end in response to various sarcastic remarks only fuels the fire. The attacks on HTC arent a good thing ethier. Its like saying somebodies kid is stupid lazy and useless. They might be but what parent WANTS to hear it?
If they have an question/disagreement then post it in a pure analytical manner and AVOID the personality conflicts seen on this BBS.
I also think that if an indiv posts something and have taken the time to research aka Wilbus then it would be nice to see constructive comments rather than something that simply tears down the post to personal attacks.
Comments?
FatBat
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And then there is is the issue of HTC responsibility here or rather irresponsibility. I have seen Hitech, the owner and head honcho here obviously, make fun of people on the BBS in public as Luftwhiners.
Back that statement up. I belive I have told some people like it is, but can't ever rember makeing light/fun of them.
Also your teacher anology is totaly bogus, My job is not a teacher, and players are not students, nor are they kids.
When akak was complaining about the 38 & 50 cals I also jumped on him. As I have jumped on other people when they get out of line.
As far as the conspericy theroy goes, you proving the point, you seem to belive that there is a grudge angainst the LW and a singling out / making fun of that group , and don't see how some of us see the difference between the LW lovers and and the "luftwiners". Theres other groups I see that have the same tendencies.
1. "Use releasim for my purpose group"
2. "The anti whinne whiners" This group is on the groth latly.
3. "The buy into others hype group" Loves to take others companys PR and think its real. These show up ocasionaly.
4. "I didn't get what I wanted for cristmas group"
HiTech
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FIX the 109 or I am quit AH!
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Just as in real life the people with bad confidence go into groups with eachother and start to pound some other little guy or small group. I can get a bit anoying when you're trying to have a conversation and show facts of something.
However, if going into groups with eachother and thus gaining more confidence in them selves, I will be fairly happy as I know I've done my part to help them to a better life. Hopefully they too will learn something most people learn as kids :)
Thank you Batdog :)
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Didn't know you flew the 109 Commander rialbh :)
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Howdy HiTech and Hblair.
HiTech... I hope this isnt an out of line post. I realise my leather thong comment was abit off color but.... its true.
I posted this to bring it to the table. Nothing more... hopefully something other than a flame fest will happen.
FatBat
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LW bashing is an entry requirement for joining the AH Kool Kids Klub.
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Originally posted by batdog
Does the mob rule? Am I smoking crack? Will there be a tomarrow? Who the hell wrote that movie Annie?
Yes, probably, probably not, who cares. In that order.
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Hitech:
The teacher thing is of course just an analogy, certainly you have to admit your word carries much weight here as would for example any teachers or leader's or anyone in a position of power or influence. As owner, head guy etc you are indesputably in that position.
For example I have seen you call either Wotan or Wilbus ( I get them confused sometimes :) ) a luftwhiner. Like it or not the word and concept luftwhiner is used as put down to make fun of people - if you dont belive that then just lookt at the picture that guy just posted.
You even casually use the term "luftwhiners" in your very response. I see that as supporting evidence of incredible weight.
Are we to think you support this pattern of behaviour, of singling out whole groups of people as you yousrlf said "luftwhiners"? There is no such thing it's just an insulting label. Why no handy put down label that groups Fester and Lazs and Funked and all the P38 guys or the Spitfire complainers as "alliedwhiners" or whatever.
And there is no conspiracy, you know that. Thats just another putdown and used to make fun of people. However it is also clear there a bunch of people here who just pile in nearly every thread posted by a LW type and attack them using the same methods and terms over and over and over. Thats no conspiracy but sure is a consitant pattern of behavior. A pattern of behavior you, perhaps unknowingly, enable and encourage by your casual personal use of the same insulting terms.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
And there is no conspiracy, you know that. Thats just another putdown and used to make fun of people.
BS-- that's one thing that does exist... and used periodically... in a thread about German planes, someone (won't name names) comes in and says, "Of course that won't get fixed, but [insert something allied] will" or something along those lines.
That's saying that there is an intentional bias- hence a conspiracy.
-SW
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Ah ha so lets see where any LW guy complains of a conspiracy..
Lets see go find a post. Find one SW..
What you posted is more like frustration...
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Gunzer when did you ever see me call wotan or wilbus a luftwiner, if your refereing to my only stuff today , I did nothing of the sort.
I was simply telling wilbus that his bait and switch by including the ta152, was why he was refered to as a luftwiner.
That is completely different than me calling wilbus a luftwiner.
As to useing the term in my response, its the subject at hand very hard not to use it. My hole point is you are proving the conspiricy theroy by assuming that I view LW the same as Luftwinning, hence inplying we dont care for the LW. Thats just not the case.
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http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=49042
Page 2, Niklas says, "Funny what people write, really funny. I bet noone would have so much doubts when this curve would have been for a allied fighter."
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http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27858
Whole thing...
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http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28712
Whole thing...
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Well, you asked.
-SW
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Hitech you said:
"Theres other groups I see that have the same tendencies."
Apparently you are the only one who realizes that the LW arent the only guys complaining.
My whole concern here and really the point I am trying to make is that everyone whines in this game, and you know that the best.
The only group that gets categorically singled out for attack and labeling are luftwhiners. The insulting atmosphere makes it difficult to bring even the slightests point up - I actually even politely ask that I not be attacked in mosts of my question posts. I shouldnt have to do that when just asking about the game. However It's pretty much a given that you will be attacked as luftwhiner or conspiracy nut most every time you ask a question or make a suggestion. Thats the problem. No wonder LW people get frustrated when they are attacked and made fun of like that.
And please dont bring up any idea of conspiracy hitech, no LW goes around crying anti-LW conspiracy. The conspiracy idea brought up by the guys who make fun of LW is just that an insult no different than their calls of luftwhiner.
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My whole point is you are proving the conspiracy theory by assuming that I view LW the same as Luftwhining, hence implying we dont care for the LW. Thats just not the case.
Grun's whole point is your the most powerful man alive in these boards, and if you aren't careful you can influence a lot of people in the wrong way.
Somebody questions about a plane, or has doubts about it, brings it up in a discussion. Then, someone else bops in and comments "that's why people refer to you as a Luftwhiner".
..and you expect people to see that comment as a neutral one?
Even if it is "not the case" for you, it's "a case" for other people when those words come out of your mouth. Sure, it's not your fault how others think about what you said, but it doesn't hurt to be more careful in sensitive issues.
That's Grun's point, and you're suddenly implying Grunherz is proving that he believes in the "anti-LW conspiracy".
Really, I don't see how anyone can come to that logical conclusion.
ps) oops.. Swulfe came to that conclusion, too.
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SW I asked for you to find evidence that supports your argument not mine. :D
Reading through those threads most of what I see is frustration by for example RAM for HTC not responding to the thread- cerainly most people would like some response.
But I do see plenty of guys making fun of them with words like luftwhiner and conspiracy. Again only the guys making fun of LW bring up accusations of a conspiracy. Odd isnt it?
Sorry SW try again!
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Exactly Kweassa thanks!
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Page 2, Niklas says, "Funny what people write, really funny. I bet noone would have so much doubts when this curve would have been for a allied fighter."
Illiteracy rate must be high 'round these parts.
-SW
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Reading through those threads most of what I see is frustration by for example RAM for HTC not responding to the thread- cerainly most people would like some response.
And that somehow justifies their rants?
I get frustrated everyday, I don't squeak 'n moan about it.
-SW
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The only group that gets categorically singled out for attack and labeling are luftwhiners.
grunherz, need to call Bull --- on this one.
Ever here of .
spit dweebs
Quake heads
Run stang.
Furballers.
Milkrunners.
Vulchers.
Gangbangers.
Realism Nazies.
Thought Police.
To name a few, all of these are exactly the same as the term luftwhiner. Notice how you are still arguing that only the Luftwhiners get singled out?
HiTech
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
BS-- that's one thing that does exist... and used periodically... in a thread about German planes, someone (won't name names) comes in and says, "Of course that won't get fixed, but [insert something allied] will" or something along those lines.
That's saying that there is an intentional bias- hence a conspiracy.
-SW
er i think you have missed something here SW.
It is not a case of people claiming there is some kind of conspiricy.
I dont think HT or anyone in HTC cares or has the time to work out some antiLW plot but i do see bias of sorts.
one example is when i asked about why the 190d9 was set the same for wep and cooling times as the 190A's when it quite clearly has a different cooling system, ie water cooled I was accused by HT of only wanting to have a super plane for my own use. He implied my sole reason for asking was for personal gain.He even then went on to say that i wouldnt post anything in the BBs that might show any luftwaffe aircraft should be reduced or toned down if i found evidence of it.Utter roadkill and I found it extremely offensive.
If i was to look at all the posts on all the aircraft, 90% of them are posts from a player who likes a particular aircraft and happens to have more books on that particular aircraft . And a high percentage of these are requests for improvements to their model. i.e. combat flaps on p38s.
I never saw HT call those players who asked for stuff of being only after self gain (or whatever he thinks my motive was) and therefore their research or discovery of info is to be ignored as biased.
Theres also the pointthat in all the time we have had the 190F8 there have been constant requests for greater variety of loadouts with tonnes of info showing what they could carry.I can appreciate HTC dont always have the time to add every request made but comon this has been requested since its addition to the planeset.
You might say its because LW are always asking for it and so have annoyed HTC so much that they decide not to do it but do you think any player who flies the USAAF planes like p47 p51 or p38 wouldnt have asked the same amount of times had HTC only added half the bomb options they have?
I have yet to find a reference or photo of a p51,p38 or p47 with the maximum loadouts possible in AH.I have seen references to them using bombs OR rockets and rockets with lighter bombs than 1000lbers but they have been included in AH so we have to accept HTC has info that says they were right?
I have seen many photos and references to 190f8's having far more diverse loadouts and ive seen many a post in here but those players asking were either abused or accused of whining etc.Even HTC seemed to totally ignore it until very recently.
The way i figure it maybe HTC has had a lot of trouble from LW types since the warbirds days? and perhaps there is a certain type of player who demands too much for his liking? I dont know but i must say I have lost a lot of respect for this company recently after recieving what i would call a rude answer from them.
Players who ask about LW planes are no different to those asking about any plane. They are fans of HTCs game and should not be treated any differently.At first i used to laugh along with the leather jokes etc but now I find it all a bit petty and childish.
The reason it lost its comic effect is that it has been used as a weapon to annoy and frustrate players asking legitimate questions. One thing I know is when i see someone post a query about a spitfire or ki 61 I dont assume the guy posting it is hell bent on making that aircraft the best and therefore ignore what he has written because he isnt capable of an objective discussion.
I have seen this sort of thing happen to wotan and several others including myself.
I still have yet to see an explanation from anyone in here as to why the 190a8 doesnt match any charts or info ive seen concerning its climbrate over 25k. I still dont know quite whats modeled into the ta152 (as in mw50? gm1? whatever). I dont know if ill ever see the 190f8 get the upgraded armour it was made with or the loadouts it had. I still dont understand why the 190d9(an inline jumo engine with liquid cooling) has the same timing for cooling as the 190A's(air cooled radial) yet the 109G's are totally different (liquid cooled inlines again). and then theres the RAF planes that are different in cooling again!. If you can give me any of the answers to these questions SW and perhaps explain just what HT meant in the reply to my infamously SELFISH questions on cooling(sheesh!) then by all means post it.
I dont assume a conspiracy. but i do see a different attitude shown towards LW players. From customers in here abusing to strange criptic comments from HT every now and then. It is here and it doesnt do HTC's reputation much good when someone totally new to online sims comes into these boards and reads it.
I have to say it SW most of the time i see you as one of the worst offenders.There have been times where ive seen you be very reasonable like the discussion about the 190a8 where you posted info, I posted info and between us we kind of worked out that HTC must have taken an average of all info to model our 190a8.In that post i thought you was pretty good with what you said.In others I see you trying your best to aggrivate the poster or just plain take the piss.
If the intention is to piss off customers who like LW so much that they lose interest in trying to get their aircraft improved or dont bother to ever post info they find about LW in these boards then I have to say its working.At least it has against me.I dont think i'll ever stop feeling annoyed by it all or for that matter ever stop wondering what the answers are but I have lost a huge part of the AH experience now that i dont really follow the technical side of the game.The questions on accuracy or modeling were all part of the enjoyment for a long time.I bought many books because of AH and because i wanted to see just how accurate it is.Now it seems to have just become like any other flight sim where I have no chance to get involved in its development or refinement.
Think about it, we all love these boards because we can put in ideas or info in the hope it helps HTC decide on new features.Thats what i assumed these boards were all about.Seems lately they are just about who has the snappiest insult or who can flame a player the best.Its like juvenille hall.
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So what does that have to do with your conspiracy proving, or are you trying to suggest only luftwhiners get frustrated and squeak on the BBS..
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There's no point in arguing this with you Grun, you've made up your mind and your blinders are firmly in place. Any mention of anything anti-LW, even in jest makes you fly off the deep end. Seek help.
SOB
PS...The picture was posted by Commander Rialbh, AKA Hblair, AKA guy who flies LW planes.
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hitech, those are all said, but when a question is brought out about a certain Luftwaffe plane it turns into a Luftwhiner post. As a Luftwaffe die hard myself I have run out of whits about what to say and I have posted a few rants. I can clearly remember a post I put in the A section showing valuable data, not one thing has been said or done about an obvious deletion. I used to like this board when it wasn't patrolled by the BBS whine police along time ago.
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The only group that gets categorically singled out for attack and labeling are luftwhiners.
Are you total blind grunherz?
The word "Only" implies one,uno,1 ,0000001,0x000001, 0+1,unique, no other like it.
This is what the conserpericy theory is, think that one group is singled out, treated different,abused by it self.
HiTech
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Hitech how often is anyone who flies spits or vulches automatically attacked by a consitent group of people because they do that if they ask a question about their planes. Plus there is a distinction to be made here. If somebody vulches a lot then yea you can call them a vulcher. If somebody flies a FW190D9 a lot you can call them Hunstang. The distinction between those and Luftwhiner is the aoutomatic labeling of so many LW questions as a luftwhine, no matter how concise, clear and level headed the issue is presented.
I hardly ever see Funked or Fester's rants pointed out as alliedwhining. Or what about lazs and his quest to elimate bombers and fast planes from gameplay? If they were flying mostly LW planes and not spits or P38 or Corasirs or FM2 you know they would automatically be put in that group.
It just creates a negative atmosphere. Surely ypu must see that?
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Hazed- because most of those threads do not contain solely a platform to discuss... they've quickly become a platform to squeak that they aren't getting attention about the issue or that if it were allied, it would be fixed.
Grun- someone insinuated that there is a bias towards Allied aircraft over German aircraft. <--- That is a conspiracy in favoring one party.
I've seen several other people come and go from AH that were "LW" and insinuate that there is a favoring for the allied side while the German (note: not axis) side gets screwed.
I can't remember what thread it was in, but a while ago someone said that the majority of bugs on German aircraft were detrimental to performance bugs and that all bugs on allied planes made them better. Ignoring that both bugs got fixed when proven to be bugs.
In any event, I'm... I clearly pointed out there is a percieved conspiracy for the allied side against the German(not axis for some wierd reason) side (even happens in that thread "simple request to HTC") and you think it somehow supports your argument that you get unfairly abused.
-SW
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Actually Grun, Fester has been banned at least once, and the last time I got on a serious rant rampage, Pyro gave me a warning. Pick better examples.
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Hitech can you honestly say any group of AH airplane fans are so diectly ostracized and made fun of as LW guys? Thats my point, no need to focus on a single word.
Honestly?
SOB I am trying to argue my point. After years of wathing tjhis on the BBS I feel its very important to finally stand up and confront this behavior however I can. I just dont lile it because its having a negative impact on the game I like and the community here.
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wew! made into the dumbest post ever.
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Funked you guys are the perfect examples, you have clearly acted shamefully on the BBS, you have been banned and kicked of the BBS and such yet nobody is ranting about you as allied whiners and brininging your poor example up when somebody asks question abou P51 or Spitfire or whatever.
Actually your post is perfect also because it illustrates the wrong preception you have of what I'm arguing. You are basically thinking that since you two, Funked and Fester, have been punished for misbehavior that this proves HTC doesnt let non LW off the hook for bad behavior - and that this is bad example for my argument. By this you imply that my argument is that HTC favors allies or non LW.
Well thats not my argument. My issue with hitech is what Kweassa so perfectly explained.
Understand wgat I'm getting at Funked?
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Hey Grun, remember this thread:
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=73943
You ever gonna put up? I did here... you couldn't there...
Hmmmm...
-SW
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Yes I see the negative atmosipher, it's realy why i'm even bothering with this decusion.
But the resone for the negative attude, is the luftwhiner type posts. And people trying to give credibilty to there style. There attitude is what causes the problems, not some one calling them on the attitude.
It's why I told ram he is his worst enemy.
Is why hazed is very close to loosing bbs privs.
Let me give you some very resont examples.
By mandoble:
Diving and max G test
Test purpose:
Measure the max G load and elevator authority of several planes diving at 550mph.
Test conditions:
Terrain dueling, base A1, Alt 15k.
All planes loaded with 50% fuel, taking off by North.
All planes diving vertically untill 550mph, trimmed for speed, then recovering pulling stick as hard as possible without manual trim.
Results:
Ta152H - 6.5g for a fraction of second.
190D9 - 6g for a fraction of second.
190A8 - 6g for a fraction of second.
Typhoon - Well above 9g substained, after some seconds pulling > 9g, wings broke.
Nice and hidden here, but notice the planes chosen.
190D9 radiator/oil Seems that everything hitting my D9 from 6 o'clock kills my radiator with a single ping (no matter if 50" or guns) and then I have only about 10-15 seconds before engine stops. In the other hand, I rarely have oil system damage, but when I have, oil tank empties extremely quickly, twice as fast as a La7. What was the oil capacity of 190D9, and what the La7 capacity?
New P51D is it me or..... does it roll and handle even better than before?
Nice reverse back flip whine on this one. But at least it was formed as a question, wrather than the more normal,cipes HTC you improved the p51d and not changed the F190D. Take note I did answere this one because it was stated fairly.
Stuka we have DID have siren......
I noticed the stuka we have , by this i actually mean the EXACT model we have represented is the same ju87 that was flown by the RAF and was written about in 'wings of the luftwaffe' by Capt.eric brown
Notice the deffintate statement in the title.
Just wanting to prove that he wants a siren.
These were just very recent history.
Like I said in my list the anti whine whiners are currently growing to a level that they need to be delt with. But grunherz, you are trying to defend somthing that is not defensible.
HiTech
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BTW, does any other group of people need such high maintenance? (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3222)
-SW
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Grun, this is just a guess on my part, no flame intended...
Could it be that the LW contigent ( guys who really like LW planes and fly them almost exclusively) happen to be the only ac type fans that are as single minded as they are? Most of the guys that I know who really really like LW iron fly little if anything else. This singlemindedness may be the reason for them being picked upon. I am speaking of LW aircraft, not axis aircraft in general.
Also, though those same LW iron fans may not support the original politics involved, a lot of others may subconciously see them as supporters of the Reich and all the terrible attrocities attributed to that political government. The "Bad Guys" so to speak.
Looked at in this light then it would not be too surprising they would get picked on more than fans of other aircraft types.
This is not an attempt to say none of the other political entities involved in the second world war did not engage in attrocities. I don't even want to go there. I am just trying to find a plausible explanation.
I plead guilty to jumping on the "luftwhiner" bandwagon and I think it has to do with what I wrote of above.
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I think this thread is a perfect answer to the original question.
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Grunherz: If you point is I should choose my words wisly , I agree and belive I always do. But you got me involved in this post by accusing me of .
And then there is is the issue of HTC responsibility here or rather irresponsibility. I have seen Hitech, the owner and head honcho here obviously, make fun of people on the BBS in public as Luftwhiners.
I Asked you to back that up, you never have.
And therfore your hole point becomes totaly invalid.
HiTech
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If you are thinking that the anti-whine whiners as you said are becoming a problem then we agree 100%. Thats exactly why I'm putting so much effort in this. Thats good to hear Hitech and I thank you.
But why chose those examples?
How is choice of typhoon compared to FW190 bad, does Mandoble get killed a lot my typhoon- if so thats clearly a biased test.
The P51 roll rate thread you quoted is strange. Hazed IIRC said it seems to roll better with new version. Other people confirmed the same but it was decised it was due to new 3D model sightlines. Nothing scandalous, unless you consider Hazed (a LW) asking about FM to be a problem? And of course why bring it up when you agreesd it was fine? I dont understand?
The LA7/D9 oil thing. All I see there is somebody noticing oil runs out faster in D9 and asking what the oil tank capacities of the two planes are, What exactly are you supposed to ask in such a situation. The 6oc thing seems pretty clear to me, likely an issue of deflection shots.
Is the Stuka thing really that big of a deal? Just curious, does it raiise to status of a problem post?
And once again I want to thank you for dealing with the atmosphere here, I appreciate that.
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It's a big deal grunherz, because 99% of the post I see from those 2 gentlemen, are always exctly the same, looking for some way that we are screwing the LW, or them personaly.
HiTech
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Hitech:
I agree that we should all chose words more carefully. kweassa chose excellent words here and he capured my meaning much more accuratetely and carefully. I stand by what he said in ragds to this matter.
Originally posted by Kweassa
Grun's whole point is your the most powerful man alive in these boards, and if you aren't careful you can influence a lot of people in the wrong way.
Somebody questions about a plane, or has doubts about it, brings it up in a discussion. Then, someone else bops in and comments "that's why people refer to you as a Luftwhiner".
..and you expect people to see that comment as a neutral one?
Even if it is "not the case" for you, it's "a case" for other people when those words come out of your mouth. Sure, it's not your fault how others think about what you said, but it doesn't hurt to be more careful in sensitive issues.
That's Grun's point, and you're suddenly implying Grunherz is proving that he believes in the "anti-LW conspiracy".
Really, I don't see how anyone can come to that logical conclusion.
ps) oops.. Swulfe came to that conclusion, too.
Hi Mark welcome to our discussion:
In a word no, basically there are guys who are just as devoted to their particular plane as supposed LW. Even LW types arent bound to LW planes, I for one like flying the IL2 and FM2 sometimes. Certainly one sees plenty of RAF squads and P51 squads. and of course USN navy devotees etc.
Pretty much every LW squad in every sim I played had a nazi disclaimer on its front page, so LW fans see the potential of the problem. Most also have strict rules that will explel nazi types drom the squad.
But then again we have Soviets and Japanese planes. You could say too these too should have disclaimers, perhaps especially Japan for wha they did in China or with POW. But thats a side issue of course, however the lack of concern there is interesting.
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"If i was to look at all the posts on all the aircraft, 90% of them are posts from a player who likes a particular aircraft and happens to have more books on that particular aircraft . And a high percentage of these are requests for improvements to their model. i.e. combat flaps on p38s."
Well, Hazed, not trying to single you out on purpose, but your statement above reflected my thoughts exactly, with one addition.
Jog on over to the Aircraft/Vehicles boards and count just how many of the topics are LW related versus Allied related. Note how the subjects are titled also, count how many have "needs" or "should have" in the subject line. No matter if the "need"ed upgrade/mod/field kit was widespread or whether someone found a few sentences in some reference book that mentioned the upgrade was available and used on a small number of aircraft, it is "NEEDED".
Anymore, when I look in that section and see "(insert LW plane) needs (insert anything)", my first thoughts are "LW needs nothing."
Why? HHhhhhmmmm......let me see............
Me262, Me163, Ta152, Tiger, Ar234..........
The LW fans get the top performing planes, yet it STILL isn't enough! The 152 is missing some top speed, needs to be addressed I agree, but did anyone of the LW fans ever take the time to actually count the votes from Pyro's poll way back then? I did,and the 152 was not among the top vote getters. But we still got it, didn't we?
I've been waiting over a year for a hopped up Jug, M or N, either one would be fine with me. Will I get one soon? Only Pyro and HiTech and company know, but I am not gonna throw a hissy fit over it.
Check how many posts there are from folks wanting the Do335, see how many neutral folks say that since it didn't see combat that it should not be introduced, then see how many LW fans say it should anyway. Heck, if the Do335 qualifies, or the Horton flying wing fighter, gimme a P-47J, F8F, F7F, P-80, etc....
GRUNHERZ, IMO a "Luftwhiner", "Luftwobble", and other names you consider derogatory should only bother you if the shoe fits............
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Eddiek:
I dont think I am as Luftwhiner as much as somebody mighnt not think they are a cupcake, and both of us dont like the name. Of course thats a bit of an exaggeration but It works well to illustrate my point I think, so please nobody overreact ok?
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LOL Grun, I don't even know what to say to that! :D Wow.
SOB
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Grun: Please back up your orginal accusation of me.
HiTech
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Hitech as we have already agreed to I chose my words crudely and made my point imprecisely. However I think Kweassa put it perfectly - and thats what I stand by.
So going by that it's obvious I cannot say you made fun of wilbus directly as luftwhiner.
Again this is what I should have written in the first place and it sums up my concern perfectly.
If you were offended by what I wrote first then I'm sorry and I hope you read the follwing text again.
quote:
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Grun's whole point is your the most powerful man alive in these boards, and if you aren't careful you can influence a lot of people in the wrong way.
Somebody questions about a plane, or has doubts about it, brings it up in a discussion. Then, someone else bops in and comments "that's why people refer to you as a Luftwhiner".
..and you expect people to see that comment as a neutral one?
Even if it is "not the case" for you, it's "a case" for other people when those words come out of your mouth. Sure, it's not your fault how others think about what you said, but it doesn't hurt to be more careful in sensitive issues.
That's Grun's point, and you're suddenly implying Grunherz is proving that he believes in the "anti-LW conspiracy".
Really, I don't see how anyone can come to that logical conclusion.
ps) oops.. Swulfe came to that conclusion, too.
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Hi SOB as expected the comparsion is a bit extreme, but I'm sirprised it even made you speechless. :D I certainly did not indent to leech any moral authority from the comparsion, however it served as an excellent illustrator to counter eddiek's incorrecy assertion.
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I feel i have to answer due to the threat of me losing my BBs privelages.Id like to know er ... why?
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
If you are thinking that the anti-whine whiners as you said are becoming a problem then we agree 100%. Thats exactly why I'm putting so much effort in this. Thats good to hear Hitech and I thank you.
But why chose those examples?
How is choice of typhoon compared to FW190 bad, does Mandoble get killed a lot my typhoon- if so thats clearly a biased test.
The P51 roll rate thread you quoted is strange. Hazed IIRC said it seems to roll better with new version. Other people confirmed the same but it was decised it was due to new 3D model sightlines. Nothing scandalous, unless you consider Hazed (a LW) asking about FM to be a problem? And of course why bring it up when you agreesd it was fine? I dont understand?
you know what, neither do i grun. So the fact that i flew the p51D and felt it seemed to roll better, then posted the question is wrong? Just how else is it supposed to be done? I couldnt load 1.10 and do tests on the p51d of that version as i havent got the patch anymore. So i asked with the idea of finding out if im just imagining it.
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
The LA7/D9 oil thing. All I see there is somebody noticing oil runs out faster in D9 and asking what the oil tank capacities of the two planes are, What exactly are you supposed to ask in such a situation. The 6oc thing seems pretty clear to me, likely an issue of deflection shots.
Id like to point out that i actually disagreed with this post Hitech.It at least proves im not just ranting about anything i see posted.If i feel a player has a point i agree, if i dont i say why.
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Is the Stuka thing really that big of a deal? Just curious, does it raiise to status of a problem post?
sheesh this was merely me seeing a picture of this actual stuka in a book WITH the siren on it. It was in NO WAY meant as a demand for change OR implying HTC are conspiring to rid us of the siren! is that REALLY what you think HT? from my point of veiw i only posted it because i wanted to hear the siren. I coulnt give a damn about it TRUELLY! I just thought id share the info(a plan drawing) in the hope it might be added. When it was pointed out that its a common occourance and that diagrams are often wrong then it was discussed about how sure we can be it wasnt correct.Which incidently was answered by wotan later.
Was this really such a terrible post?? Im a bit confused as to whether im actually allowed to post any questions at all now.Again i feel its a case of you guys predicting my motives and being COMPLETELY wrong.I cant stress this enough.
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
And once again I want to thank you for dealing with the atmosphere here, I appreciate that.
Im also glad to read that the whine stuff is as annoying to you guys as it is to your customers. this is the best news ive seen in a long while.
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Thing is Grun. You have been arguing two points.
1. About me choicing words, and we agree, and I always try to do so.
2. Is the Luftwhiner stuff, that we do not agree on ,because you don't seem to want to see most of the problem is caused by the luftwhiners and not the whine police to follow.
So what should be done about bad behavior on this board, and make no mistake true "luftwines" post are bad behavor, along with the whine police posting to none whines.
HiTech
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Originally posted by hitech
So what should be done about bad behavior on this board, and make no mistake true "luftwines" post are bad behavor, along with the whine police posting to none whines.
Speaking for myself here, I think one of the problems is that I'm not completely sure where the you draw the line between "true luftwhines" and "ok whines".
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BTW, The P-47's are fine if you omit the following. However the same rules can be applied to likely 50 percent of the planeset if one was to nitpick like I did (or like some other notable examples:D)
If you were to perform a simple search using my bbs name in the AC and Veh forum, you will see that I have posted on several occasions about the fantasy loadout of the P-47D-30. I cannot find a reference in anything I own of it carrying 1K's and rock's on the wings and a centerline 500. I have also pointed out that 9th AF P-47's could not fire their guns while laden with rockets without the very real possibility of severing the motor fire wires. They always fired their rock's with the muzzel's of their brownings plugged.
Additionally, I think that I have proven that the D11 modeled in AH was equiped with a hamilton "paddleblade" prop. Even though it doesn't have it, I still love that bird. I appreciate having a P-47 modeled with my squads colors.
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I read the BBS a lot, way more than I should. My impressions are that fans of certain aircraft make repeated posts about relatively minor things having to do with said aircraft, and act like eqivilent things aren't missing on other aircraft.
The aircraft that seem to follow this trend to me are:
F4U
Fw190
P-38
P-47
That is all.
I could post about the radiator damage control on Spitfire IXs and XIVs, but what's the point? AH is setup in a particular manner. There is one radiator per engine (Spit radiator issue) and primary and secondar weapon banks (Fw190 trigger arangement issue). I highly doubt that HTC is going to customize either aircraft, yet the trigger issue gets mentioned repeatedly and I've never seen the Spit radiator issue posted before.
GRUNHERZ,
You stated that nobody is affected by those other labels. Well, you're wrong. Spitfires are, and always have been, my favorite WWII aircraft. I signed up to AH to fly Spitfires. I don't fly them much at all because I got so sick of the whining directed at me. Nobody complains when I shoot them down in a 190, but if I'm in a Spit I stand a good chance of being sworn at or mocked simply for my taste in aircraft.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Hitech can you honestly say any group of AH airplane fans are so diectly ostracized and made fun of as LW guys? Thats my point, no need to focus on a single word.
Dweebfire drivers, N1K2 weenies and the obvious La7 Slobberdonkeys come to mind. I guess it's just the Luftwhiners that cry and pout the loudest while screaming, "IT'S A CONSPIRACY!"
Get a grip and a life.
Ack-Ack
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Originally posted by hitech
Thing is Grun. You have been arguing two points.
1. About me choicing words, and we agree, and I always try to do so.
2. Is the Luftwhiner stuff, that we do not agree on ,because you don't seem to want to see most of the problem is caused by the luftwhiners and not the whine police to follow.
So what should be done about bad behavior on this board, and make no mistake true "luftwines" post are bad behavor, along with the whine police posting to none whines.
HiTech
I have been arguing one thing.
The choice of words discussion was only a side issue pertaining to one post of mine in the thread. I consider that resolved, and we agree.
Apparently we are still at a disagreement over my main issue despite the good dialoge and discussion.
Once again you use the term luftwhiner. This time to me it seems you mean it as a label and not just out of arguments sake. You say they are problem? Who is the luftwhiner hitech? Why arent all the guys like funked and lazs and fester and all other loudmouths on the BBS? Why dont you call them ****** whatever.
And I dont see how the problem is caused by people asking questions, everyone does this and whines and squeakes no matter what they fly. But I think we all can see which group gets the most attacks for their concerns.
My basic argument is this. Everybody whines. The group most clearly targeted for harrasement are LW people who whine, called luftwhiners. Why are they attacked as you said?
And again regarding your use of the term luftwhiner to describe people. I suggest you read over Kweassa's summary of the impact it has once more, and reconsider your choice of words. He put it perfectly.
Here is the main point from Kweassa.
"Grun's whole point is your the most powerful man alive in these boards, and if you aren't careful you can influence a lot of people in the wrong way.
Somebody questions about a plane, or has doubts about it, brings it up in a discussion. Then, someone else bops in and comments "that's why people refer to you as a Luftwhiner".
..and you expect people to see that comment as a neutral one?
Even if it is "not the case" for you, it's "a case" for other people when those words come out of your mouth. Sure, it's not your fault how others think about what you said, but it doesn't hurt to be more careful in sensitive issues. "
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Ack-Ack its intersting how another guy who criticizes and makes fun of LW types talks of a conspiracy... Odd huh?
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Like I said in my list the anti whine whiners are currently growing to a level that they need to be delt with.
One good thing I've heard today.
Kweassa's post was exelent too and pretty much says most things that needs to be said.
Although this
So once again get off the luftwiner conspericy theroy.
Was not an attack on me, and I did not take it as one. It does help the people who constantly run around screaming luftwhiner whenever someone says ANYTHING about an LW plane.
And what you told me in the main arena that's why people refer to you as a Luftwhiner
allso adds alot to those people and they feel like they are being backed up by the creator of the game.
I appriciate what you said to me in the Main arena, it's good (negative) feedback and was said to me in a good way that will help me improve. BUT it could have been said in a better way thus not suporting the anti luftwhiner whiner people (or whatever). And I also think those two things are what Grun was refering to in the beginning.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Ack-Ack its intersting how another guy who criticizes and makes fun of LW types talks of a conspiracy... Odd huh?
Maybe I should have added the [SARCASM] [/SARCASM] tags to my post so you would have had an easier time of comprehending it.
The only one crying about a conspiracy has been you...odd huh?
And the funny thing is, most of us that poke fun at the Luftwhiners aren't talking about the planes but rather a certain few players that play in them. Frankly, I don't give a damn about the German planes, some like the Ju-87D-3 and the Me262 are a blast to fly and all of them are easy to shoot down.
Ack-Ack
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I don't get it. So HT can't use the word Luftwhiner for fear that someone else may use it out of context? Hell, he mentioned Whine whiners too, but no one seemed to take issue with that. What if someone uses that term out of context as well? Why can't he call out certain segments of the AH population that he feels are detrimental? The term Luftwhiner is a quick, descriptive way to do so, as is Whine whiner. Maybe I'm missing something.
SOB
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Ok so what are you trying to contribute here? And of course you would make fun of and insult people and not planes - how would that be something that needs explaining.
And how would I complain of a conspiract that I clearly say does not exit, and say so sever times in plain english. The only people who belive in a conspiracy are the guys like you who make fun and insult LW people as luftwhiners.
Anyhow I hope you can contribute something here besides bizzare exaggetations and anything generally resembling this tirade:
"I guess it's just the Luftwhiners that cry and pout the loudest while screaming, "IT'S A CONSPIRACY!"
Get a grip and a life. "
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
The only people who belive in a conspiracy are the guys like you who make fun and insult LW people as luftwhiners.
I showed you clearly that's not the case and that the "conspiracy" notion is very real.
But whatever, you couldn't bring yourself to prove me wrong in the other thread... you couldn't prove that the conspiracy belief among many fans is only a hoax/fabrication by those who only want to make fun of and insult LW "people".
Your self proclaimed objectivity is a bit one sided and dillusional.
-SW
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SOB
The negative atmospher that has come over BBS and specifically with so many LW are upset is due to targeted attacks by people calling them luftwhiners. This is the big issue and my concern as explained by Kewassa was hitech's use of the word in the past might encourage that problematic behavior somehow.
Now what you said is clever no doubt but we both know thats not the real issue.
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SW all I saw in those threads is a bunch of frustrted people in sea of posts making fun of them as luftwhiners and conspiracy xfiles guys. Strangely I never saw the niklas post in any of the three threads, perhaps I just missed it. However going by what uou pasted he never said anything but that he thinks people wouldnt attack him so much if he brought data for allied planes. And assuming his thread anything like the others Its liukely he is prolly right. Unless of course I'm just imagining there is a an agrtessive atmosphere here attacking luftwhiners as you like to say.
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Actually, we don't both know that. I think you've been overeacting and despite the fact that a few might condemn you "just because", I still believe it's possible to post concerns about ANY aircraft type and have a good discussion, as long as the original post is reasonable and not filled with sarcasm and spite.
Luftwhiner is a good, descriptive term used to describe somebody going overboard about a problem (or percieved problem) with a LW aircraft in AH. If it's misused, then take issue with the person misusing the word, not the word itself.
SOB
PS...I don't consider a little ribbing to be misuse.
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Note that the term didn't originate here. I remember it being used in AW DOS and WB before now.
Reputations are earned, one way or the other.
It won't change until there is a change, no matter how long you argue it.
And as a sidenote, I've never, ever seen Laz "whine". I've seen him state his opinion many, many times. He's always backed up his gameplay views with reasons. He's never threatened to quit or made accusations of bias against HTC. I don't always agree with him.. but I haven't seen him "whine"
There are polite and intelligent ways to offer constructive criticism and to ask questions. Therein, for all parties, lies the answer.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
The negative atmospher that has come over BBS and specifically with so many LW are upset is due to targeted attacks by people calling them luftwhiners.
You aren't really that blind I hope.
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A little ribbing is fine, sure thats great and fun- bout not taken to a systematic extreme. But the luftwhiner thing has gone to far. Even Hitech realizes there is a problem, and thats saying a lot because I think hes pretty hands off guy who only intervenes when things are pretty bad.
And thats what I think is the difftence, and hope that we can both see that.
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Blind as to what funked? I think they are two stements there one generally about negativity on BBS and the second on why U think many LW guys are indeed upset.
Which one do you take issue with?
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The negativity is not a result of targeted attacks or whatever you said.
The negativity is a result of a long history of Luftwhiner attention potato posts. Guys who either make their complaints in a rude and agressive fashion, can't back up their complaints with facts, or claim that HTC are liars who are biased against LW, or any combination of the above. Those guys are tards and they deserve to get jumped on.
It's a few fanatics giving a bad name to the rest of the LW. I think it focuses on LW simply because (at least for US players) the type of guy who is a whining fanatical snob is more likely to be drawn to LW than to such dweebish and pedestrian sides as USAAF or USN or RAF. I've been there myself.
But like I said it's just a few guys, not the whole crowd. But those few guys give the rest of them a bad name, and create the knee jerk reaction by bulletin board vets.
But don't try to say that the whine-whiners created the bad name of the Luftwhiner and created the negativity. I've been on here since the beginning and it just didn't happen that way.
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The only one crying about a conspiracy has been you...odd huh?
True, this thread begins with the discussion on widely recognized term "Luftwhiner". Grun argues that there is no reason to label a certain group devoted to certain planes, while there are equally as much other groups devoted to other planes who never had to go through the distasteful experience of getting a "xxx whiner" stamp engraved on their foreheads.
Grun is merely stating that this is not fair, and the stereotyping of "Luftwhiner" goes as far as to promote seriously offensive and hostile behavior towards the people the others have arbitrarily grouped into a category - "Luftwhiners".
And to that, hitech replies that Grun thinks that LW fans are mistreated because Grun believes the conspiracy. Wulfe digs up frustrated comments from past discussions and presents them as "evidence that Luftwaffe fans believe in the conspiracy theory".
So, who's really crying and emphasizing about a conspiracy here? It's really ironic because I've been accused of believing conspiracy theories, when I participated in a thread in the A/V forum and pointed out a certain tendency I noticed. Almost in the exact same words.
The words "conspiracy" and "Luftwhiners" are like the words "communism" and "communist". Somebody pops in and brings those words into a debate and lo and behold "this discussion is over". Reliving the '50s again.
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And that's a percieved conspiracy... but I guess you only read what you like and ignore everything else.
Unless of course I'm just imagining there is a an agrtessive atmosphere here attacking luftwhiners as you like to say.
Yeah, I say that all the time....
I have pointed out when people are luftwhining... "The D9's guns are porked" No proof, just assumptions... that's a whine, if you are up to it (seeing as you wouldn't in another thread), you can even do a search to find the threads I am referring to.
Then, do you remember me typing this:
I can't remember what thread it was in, but a while ago someone said that the majority of bugs on German aircraft were detrimental to performance bugs and that all bugs on allied planes made them better. Ignoring that both bugs got fixed when proven to be bugs.
Here's the thread I was talking about:
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27858
By Hazed -
"please consider this,
LW issues i can think of off the top of my head:
the 190 engine bug (months of frustrating deaths),the 109 oil bug (annoying cut of the engine whilst every other plane seemed to fly forever with same damage), the 109 torque and E retention/zoom issue, now the 190a5 SL speed and hi alt climb performance,the 190 lack of full loadout options,the 190f8s lack of armour(it seems).
(please add any positive LW bugs you can think of...)
ALL of these issues/bugs/omissions meant that players flew their planes in the MA with the knowledge it was wrong which led to months of frustration.(P38 pilots can attest to this im sure with their need for dive flaps).Each time you died and these issues were involved (or NOT) you would damn the game for it whether it was fair or not.
other bugs/issues:
The p47 lack of weight issue, F4u4 lack of E loss in turns, the Nik E retention, the (argued) loadout mistakes(as in too much was enabled) on some allied aircraft,the seemingly indestructable La7 engine etc
(please add any negative bugs you can think of...)
ALL of these bugs/issues were in FAVOUR of the players that flew these aircraft.There was NO frustration in flying a plane with historically incorrect bugs, hell it even helped them."
He claims that this is not a conspiracy insinuation... but just what the hell is it? It's obviously split into German/Allied and one having more advantages than the other.
Here's another one:
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=677300#post677300
Last page: Hazed, do you remember when 190A5 was introduced in AH? Several people posted here whining about its uberness, and it was tonedown at light speed.
But whatever, I'm sure becuase they were "frustrated" it's all good in your book.
Nevertheless, those are blatant insinuations that there is a bias/conspiracy in AH.
So there, I win.
-SW
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Grunherz: You realy don't understand what I said. The Whine Police are not a problem against LuftWhiners, they are just a problem starting to evolve with all whines.
2nd you once again implied about me not choosing my words well in the past, and choose to solectivly quote me, by not quoting me correctly. I used 2 phrases whine police and luftwiners in my question about what should be done.Funny you not upset by the whine police. btw have you even tryied to answere what should be done?
HiTech
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It's a few fanatics giving a bad name to the rest of the LW. I think it focuses on LW simply because (at least for US players) the type of guy who is a whining fanatical snob is more likely to be drawn to LW than to such dweebish and pedestrian sides as USAAF or USN or RAF. I've been there myself.
But like I said it's just a few guys, not the whole crowd. But those few guys give the rest of them a bad name, and create the knee jerk reaction by bulletin board vets.
But don't try to say that the whine-whiners created the bad name of the Luftwhiner and created the negativity. I've been on here since the beginning and it just didn't happen that way.
Sounds logical. And I believe you are right funked.
Like you have said, there is a "knee jerk reaction by bulletin board vets" just as much there are are "whining fanatical LW snobs". They both contribute to making the boards distasteful and hostile. People should acknowledge that.
And yet, the snobs and the non-snobs are categorized and grouped into a single category and treated as the same. Hitech mentions he doesn't see the difference between the two.
And that, is exactly why people are upset, and feel they are mistreated.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
And yet, the snobs and the non-snobs are categorized and grouped into a single category and treated as the same.
Yep that's what we have to avoid. People need to actually read the dang post before they go into attack mode. And when they attack, they need to be careful to attack the argument, not to attack the person.
Hitech mentions he doesn't see the difference between the two.
I didn't see him do that (will reread). Certainly I have seen him demonstrate in the past that he sees the distinction.
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Yep, Funked, I think you pretty well nailed it.
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The Whine Police are not a problem against LuftWhiners, they are just a problem starting to evolve with all whines.
"starting to evolve" is grossly understated words.
"Luftwhiners" and the whine police are the same sort of distasteful whiners which brings confusion, hostility, and malice in these boards. They should be acknowledged the same. They are both rude, aggressive, hostile, and unquitting and persistent.
It is they, who should be categorized into one category, not the plain simple people who ask questions about LW planes because they usually ride it.
In that sense they are both problems.
Just acknowledge that fact and I am very convinced nobody will ever, ever bring up that there is a "bias" existing in HTC.
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Wow SW. You chose the best examples for to support my argument.
The big black highleted one is surely a LW only argument when it mentions negative bugs in P47 and P38 that p38 and P47 drivers obviously complained about as well.. Biut no labeling of them.
And again SW you talk of Consipracy, there is none get over it- it's no longer clever -really.
Hitech:
I again refer you to what Kewassa said about your use of the word luftwhiner. I think Wilbus also polietly expanded on it.
And I dont tjink I ever quoted you, if you are reffrewring to the wilbus/luftwhinrer issue in my first post. I simply, ans we agrred, chose words badly.
I am surprised that you think your use of the word whine police is any way similiar to you saying luftwhiner. There is a history for that word for being used as an insult and to put people down and embarass them. Thins I think it clear to us all, it is no way similar to recent invention of whine police.
Also I maintain and think it's pretty obvious that people most severly attacjed on the BBS are the LW guys. There is not any regular daily type of thread that comes to mind where somebody is attacked just because they fly some planes and a negative attitude exists automatically no matter what the person is saying. Personally I got sick of posting perfectly reasonable question then getting back calls of luftwhiner, or conspiracy or here it goes again. I hate even more to ask people to please not attack me in the first line of many threads. And why? Because I knew from experience that I as LW type would be singled out as luftwhiner. So excuse me hitech but I see that is a particulary, though certainly not exclisivley, an issue thats targeted at the abuse of LW people. Whatever the intentions of the threadstarter were he sure didnt call it random BBS whiner abuse, and that says a lot.
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What you fail to see, is almost all of us DO see the difference between LW and luftwiners.
HiTech
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Woops, sorry funked.
. Hitech mentions he doesn't see the difference between the two.
This is my mistake. I misread. Sorry hitech, my fault.
I'll have to rephrase it.
"Hitech mentions he sees the difference between the two, and yet people are questioning if that is really the case. He's jumped on to the 'whines' he thinks it is unjust and makes snappy comments, and yet no measures, comments, opinions are ever directed against the 'whine police'. Some might see this as being unfair. Maybe in the developer's shoes, only the direct comments concerning the game/planes itself is of concern to you, and the 'whinings' itslef you don't care about. But it is prone to misinterpretation that you are siding with the whine police.
Yes, it's childish, but feelings get hurt because people misunderstand you. "
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Grun take a breath and relax, your on burnout.
Wear your leather proud, fly'um, kick booty, have fun.
Luftwobbles is a nice club, I enjoyed my stay. It IS a club different from the rest. Spent 3 years in leather and it is different from the rest.
I burned out at WB but it was "game" burnout not a particular plane. 190's FM sucked there but it made no difference, I flew'um anyway cuz I loved them.
I was on total burnout, quit flyin, thought the passion was gone. It wasn't. LW planes here rock, but I did enough leather, trying blue :)
My particular brand of whine only comes out here when I see Domino's or Round Table all over my moniter :D
...but the textures have been softened, I no longer get headaches ;)
Little victories, take them when you get them.
Want to see flames ?? :D
Go here..
http://www.JG2.com
I'm surprised AGW wasn't burned down when an Allied CO posted that link. Thick of skin is a requirement, and a sense of humor goes along way ;)
Made me laugh....but nat evvry von vound it vunny..
Leutnant nopoop
JG 2 'Richthofen'
( Retired )
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Kweesa: Note my stating the whine police were a growing issue. Just happens that the luftwhiner is an older one.
btw you did have me confused before, on the me stating they were the same.
HiTech
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Hitech what should be done?
First you recognize there is a problem, and you have done that.
Second since this is clearly a people problem and not codeing a program you will have to listen to our discussions and opinions and of course participate as best your time allows. I would say this is a pressing community problem.
Personally I still sense some reluctance in you to accept my arguments in good faith and without thinking its meant with malice. Now I hope we dont get caught up in word choices again but basically my feeling is there is some reluctance in you to open up to my viewpoint, though im very happy we are talking.
After that i dont know what the grand solution is, but its a good start and we have talk about it because its a communication people personality thing.
We'll figure it out if we dedicated enough trust and effort into this and have some hope.
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by Kwessa:
"The words "conspiracy" and "Luftwhiners" are like the words "communism" and "communist". Somebody pops in and brings those words into a debate and lo and behold "this discussion is over". Reliving the '50s again."
LOL, commies...you are paranoid.
by Grun:
"There is not any regular daily type of thread that comes to mind where somebody is attacked just because they fly some planes and a negative attitude exists automatically no matter what the person is saying."
What if they're flying the N1K2 or LA7?
SOB
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Grunzer, I only asked what should be done, to give you an opining for you state a solution.
You might think of me a just a programer, but i've been managing bus.people,marketing,investors, and communities for a fair amout of time.
Quite frankly a statement
Second since this is clearly a people problem and not codeing a program you will have to listen to our discussions and opinions and of course participate as best your time allows. I would say this is a pressing community problem.
I find down write insulting.
I might be wrong, but you think I see a problem with jumping on the luftwiners, I don't, I see a problem with the knee jerk to legtimate post like one mitsu had a while back.
HiTech
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Well said FunkedUp.
To add...
Luftwhiners became universal to me because for every instance where a true "luftwhiner" started spouting complete drivel about how stupid something was and how pathetic it was that HTC was just ignoring the problem... there'd be several legitimate LW fans that simply could not disassociate themselves from that person and had to come in with "He has some really good points..." and rendered themselves guilty by association.
AKDejaVu
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Just to throw a spanner in the whole works........
I've been flying Aces High for roughly two years, a vast majority of that time has been spent in LW rides. I am CO of a LW squad, and to top it all off, I'm a Knight.
I'm not certain, but I would imagine that most people who 'know' me in this game would associate me with the Bf-109.
In the entire time I have been playing, I have never once been subjected to any form of negative treatment by anyone on this board, or by anyone at HTC because of my choice of aircraft and squad nationality, and have never been called a 'Luftwhiner', or thought myself to be included when the word has been used.
[friendly ribbing ala leather jockstrap, altmonkey etc aside, and thats just good fun anyway]
Although I must admit I havent posted any "LW must have this feature added" type stuff (theres no need, LW iron rocks as it is )
My point here is that although most here would instantly recognise me as a Luftweenie, no one has ever called me a Luftwhiner....the reason?.....I dont whine.
So saying that all LW fans cop it rough here is plain roadkill, the only ones who cop a hard time are those who bring it on themselves by their behaviour......or lack of.
Blue
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Hitech why do you think I would know the last possible detail how to solve this.
I just answered your post the best I could with the best approach I knew to solve such a problem. Im just a guy who trying to encourage a dialoge and a move along process where we can respectfully solve thgis problem.
I am surprised by your apparent hostility to my response..
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
We'll figure it out if we dedicated enough trust and effort into this and have some hope.
Ok, I'm confused...is this a gaming BBS or the forum for Negotiating World Peace?
Guys...it's a friggin' game....albiet one helluva a game (sorry HT, had to chearlead there)...oh wait...which reminds...I remember how bad the pom-pom label was thrown around when people would defend the game...another oppressed, abused group that needs defending!!
Save the Pom-Poms!!
Save the Luft(insert name)!!!
Save the WOWs!!
Save the Nikdweebs!!
Save the La7 Dweebs for they are not real pilots (still laugh at the thought of moving pixels on a computer being equated to pilots...hehe)
Save the SpitDweebs (well all but Funked, he should just quit!)
Save the Runstangs!! (all but Rude..he owes me lunch!)
Save the Ostie Dweebs (all but whels..and rollo...too accurate in those)
Save the Chog Dweebs!!
Save the Stratpotatos!!
Save the Mindless Furballers!!
Save the Fluffers (credit to Lazs)
Save the MA Generals!!
Wow...so many labels, so little time to save them all!
How bout this.....GROW A PAIR (where bioligically correct of course)
Cobra
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Grun:
After seeing Gmans post in Rude WOW, I belive we have a case of pot calling kettle black here ? It apears to me your the one slinging group associations for very straight forward topic posts.
Am I wrong?
HiTech
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Even better Cobra, you are great. Perhaps you canmmake fun of something else about me...
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Hitech read my response to him, it's pretty clear and he seems to get my point now.
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Grun, you are just too lopsided to see it. You have the poor LW persecution complex.
While you can't see what I posted as blatant conspiracy/bias insinuation, it's clear as day what those quotes are indicating.
Those quotes I put in Bold, yeah, you see... they don't help your argument one bit and just show that the anti-LW conspiracy isn't just a myth.
But like I said, you seem to think it somehow helps you out... but simply saying it does, won't make it work for your argument.
The issue you are arguing is so one sided, only you are right.. everyone else who disagrees with you is wrong... although you claim to look at the board "objectively".
There ain't an objective thing about you Grun.
-SW
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Even better Cobra, you are great. Perhaps you canmmake fun of something else about me...
Not making fun Grun, so loose the poor me crap.
Just pointing out that every group has been labeled.
And, seriously, consider taking a BBS break for just a little while.
It does help, believe me.
Cobra
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Lessons in objectivity from somebody like you, wow thats bizzare.
And yes I have a different point of view from the people who inslut me - aint that breaking news! :D
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Who's giving lessons? You were the one making claims, and it's fairly evident that was nothing but smoke you were blowing up people's asses.
"And yes I have a different point of view from the people who inslut me - aint that breaking news!"
Don't give me that line of horsetoejam... you are forever spouting "spit dweeb, N1K BS UFO crap, runstang" etc...
And you get offended when you get called a LuftWhiner?
Don't spew it if your gonna cry when it comes back around to you.
-SW
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Do I SW? Maybe a long time ago. I know complained much about Niki before, but guess what thats cuz I flew it and know waht the wierdness was. Anyway since the FM fix a long time ago I have never had any big concern bout Niki. As for ruinstang planes, well I dont think that sticks either. La7 and the sort are no trouble. Dont think I complsained about spits either lately.
But I could be wrong. Say what how bout you do a search for the past year or so of my posts bout planes.
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I've prolly got more G10 sorties in this game than anybody, always been interested in the luftwaffe, usually fly axis in events and stuff and I don't really see too much unwarranted persecution of the LW dudes. Unfortuantely there's a buncha LW in this game who do have negative attitudes and seem to earn all LW fans a bad name. Like that rialbh dude. What's the deal with him?
But I gotta say, the p38 guys have had some dandy threads over the years...
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hblair could not have typed that post......whoever you are and whatever you have done with hblair......please keep him there and stay at his keyboard!
Cobra
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the spelling is too good?
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LOL....that and it's actually a semi-coherent thought!
I liked him much better as Classy Guy or some such name.
I believe that rialbh guy has taken him.
Cobra
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Guys... I DID NOT mean for this to turn into something personal between all you tardlets.
I simply posted this as I saw a mentality I didnt like. It certainly doesnt mean I was correct. HiTech as posted during this thread that he see's problems w/in this BBS which is a part of the BBS community.
Anyway... sorry I walked into the refinery w/a blow torch HiTech. My social consciousness made me do it, lol.
This BBS is a reflection of the game. If one sees intolerance and hostlity here one will certainly see it w/in the community on a larger scale.
FatBat going to bed... I gotta feed my friggen niehbors dog too, doh!
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Batdog your post was inevitable, dont be ashamed of it. You only stated the obvious, and in some places thats not an easy thing to do.
Watch this:
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Feed him..........CHICKEN POT PIE
Cobra
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I just had some roast beef, mashed potatoes and salad... No thanks cobra, but very thoughtful. :)
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I never expected to see such sensitivity in someone who wields such a flamethrower in the O'club. I think we've all just witnessed a real Donahue moment :)
Charon
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Closet Liberal
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LOL guys,
, Grun I'm not ashamed. I'm ashamed about that time I took my little cousins raggdy ann and torched it.
FatBat
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enough
allways here will be luftsmth, spitsmth, dweebsmth and others, it is not a part of the game?:D :D
i love u all for that:)
ramzey
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Originally posted by hitech
It's a big deal grunherz, because 99% of the post I see from those 2 gentlemen, are always exctly the same, looking for some way that we are screwing the LW, or them personaly.
HiTech
If one of these two gentlemen is me, then you are wrong 1000%.
Actually I fly mostly 190, but I'm starting also with P40E and flying a lot with 110G. I ask about planes I use, this is perfectly normal, no matter whether they are LW or not. It is more than clear than if a Yak9U pilot finds something wrong or unusual with his ride, he will post about that.
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Originally posted by Karnak
You stated that nobody is affected by those other labels. Well, you're wrong. Spitfires are, and always have been, my favorite WWII aircraft. I signed up to AH to fly Spitfires. I don't fly them much at all because I got so sick of the whining directed at me. Nobody complains when I shoot them down in a 190, but if I'm in a Spit I stand a good chance of being sworn at or mocked simply for my taste in aircraft.
This is exactly why I enjoy flying the Spitfire; there's nothing like a good ego-saving mocking to make my evening. Come back to the light, Karnak! :)
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
It is more than clear than if a Yak9U pilot finds something wrong or unusual with his ride, he will post about that.
I’m an “online Yak driver” and a 27-year real life pilot. I couldn’t possibility tell anyone if the Yak FM was porked or not…. I’ve never flown a Yak in real live! Now, in MS Flight Sim 2002, if the Cessna 182 FM is porked, I have a leg to stand on!
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Yea huh its wierd isnt it, not the same me as in o'club. Anyway I'm much different in real life especially when I'm trying to actually work with people and solve problems.
In o'club its obviously a free for all sort of the uncivilized part of AH community so I really just let it go. But I always fealt it was diffrent and not part of actual community like the rest of the forums should be I think.
Now closet liberal, them's figthing words! ;)
But seriously I'm all over the place on politics, and it surprises people. :D
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Poor, poor Luftweenies. Maybe someone should startup a paypal donation scheme for all the burned out LW dweebs in AH.:D
Luftweenies get picked on more than any other group? I don't think so. GATR's 152 thread blatantly implied that there is some sort of bias against the LW, surely you guys that fly LW iron can see it too.
I love spits!:) I can't count the number of times i've landed a high kill sortie and had derogatory comments over ch1 from guys that fly other iron. But i don't let it upset me cause i loooove spits.:) I just tell the guy to fly a spit next sortie and see how he does, not one has replied when i asked them how well they did.:D
When posts are not of the whiney nature and contain some actual content i'll read it and listen.
Ok luftweenies here goes-
I do think the 190 accelerates too slow (it currently accelerates 20 odd seconds slower than the spit if i remember correctly) although i dunno by how much it should be increased.
I do think you Luftweenies may be onto something about the ta152
I do think another 109 is needed for the gap between the g6 and g10 (for scenario reasons).
I do think more ord needs to be modelled for the 190F8.
There may be more but i think that's about all i agree on.
However when some of you guys post something with a "HT is anti-LW" slant on it i tend to ignore all the info in the thread and poke fun at you instead. If i started a thread stating how screwed up the spit IX is, but i doubt it'll ever get fixed because HT obviously hates spits, do you guys think i would get any better replies in my thread? I like many of you Luftweenies who fly in AH and also agree with several things that you guys have issues with. But if i feel the thread has a hint of any LW conspiracy i wont hold back poking fun or calling the culprit a luftwhiner.
I love you Luftweenies (i enjoy fighting LW iron) come give uncy thrila a hug.:D
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Now closet liberal, them's figthing words! ;)
ROFL!! Thought that top water spinner bait would bring ya to the surface. ;)
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
This is exactly why I enjoy flying the Spitfire; there's nothing like a good ego-saving mocking to make my evening. Come back to the light, Karnak! :)
-- Todd/Leviathn
I've discovered the forbidden joy of the Spitfire the last few days myself. If I'm not in a P-38 or Ju-87, I'm in the Spitfire V and I'm not ashamed to admit it anymore :D
Ack-Ack
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Oh my Cod !! I spend a few days away from the BBS and I miss this !! :)
All I can add is that many people are right in this thread.
Hitech, Funked, and even Grunherz. Its a matter of perception.
Yes, I know I'm one of the first to shove facts down the throat of the over eager Luftwobble. :D When I first started, I was a hardcore Luftwobble myself. I just couldn't stand all the chafing from the leather :p
But lets not all jump on poor Grunherz. He's a straight up guy. At least he is one of the few luftwobble's that actually tries to be rational and reasonable. I met him at this years CON and he is a good guy. Even tho he is the one standing up for his beliefs in this thread, lets not all jump on him just because he is the poster boy for Luftwobbles in the AH world ;)
Grun, I hope your going to make Indy this year. But I hope you pick a slightly less hairy roomate this year ;) Later Bro. Don't lose your perspective, and be reasonable. But never , never lose your heart!
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Okay dweebs, I'm tired of this crap.
You drag someone into the argument that did NOTHING to you?!?!
I'm referring to the Yak. Grunz, you crossed the line by bringing such an INNOCENT plane into this conversation! Has it ever personally called you a Luftwhiner? NO! THEN GET OVER IT! I understand your rage at the Yak being the best plane in the game, but no need to drag it into this argument. You're a dweeb for doing it, and don't do it again.
This childish crap by dragging innocent victims into the conversation needs to end RIGHT NOW. I don't want to say it again.
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Originally posted by Aub
You drag someone into the argument that did NOTHING to you?!?!I'm referring to the Yak. This childish crap by dragging innocent victims into the conversation needs to end RIGHT NOW. I don't want to say it again.
no yak is innocent (for long) around you. sheep otoh.....
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Grun was at the con this past year? I don't remember that.
And I roomed with Raubvogel dammit.
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Now this gets interesting, somebody was at the con posing as me... I'm flattered. :D
I wasnt there Verm, so which one of you posed as me? But thanks for the nice cooments, I know I can be contrioversial and a salamander sometimes but I try my best to be fair and resonable.
I wont go to then next one as I am just transfering to a big $$$ college next week for my business study and there wont be money, maybe sometime down the road but not soon.
Aub I will just go ahead and accept your apology right now because I obviously wrote nothing about Yaks.. Go look my friend. But I would love to hear the story how you attributed that me. :)
Two posts with mistaken identity of me so close togther, kinda cool.
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Bah, okay it was MANDOBLE.
But you see... I was in a blind rampage from bringing in the Yak I decided to take each and every person down. Yeah, that's it.
Still.... DON'T BRING THE YAK INTO THIS! AGAIN!
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Oh Thrila you Spitdweeb! :D
Who has ever said "HT is Anti LW" though? :confused:
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You people just don't read these posts carefully enough. In the second post from HiTech he is already calling it: "Luftwinning".
// fats
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hb got me into flyin 109s when i was a green newbie. i didnt know the difference between the f4 and the g10.
over time i've found that it takes a certain patience and skill to fly the german stuff.
there are a lot of guys who do it without complaint, because they realize that in real life you needed the same finesse.
these planes aren't the end all be all - it takes more skill to fly them successfully.
i guess the major problem is that some can't deal with the fact there isn't a comparable german a/c (other then the 163, tee hee hee) to the niki or la7.
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these planes aren't the end all be all - it takes more skill to fly them successfully.
i guess the major problem is that some can't deal with the fact there isn't a comparable german a/c (other then the 163, tee hee hee) to the niki or la7.
What a luftweenie statement. It takes skill to fly ANY plane using its strengths. Nikis are slow and relatively easy to kill if you fly right and La7s are just runners. The Dora and the 109 G-10 is as good or better at some things than the Niki and the La7 so you have no leg to stand on.
It's the statements like "it takes more skill to fly them successfully." that's get the LW boyz picked on, if that really is the case. It's the we fly german crap so we are better than you attitude. Jump in an F4F or P-47 and see how great you are...
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What BNM just did would cualify me as a Luftwhiner (had I done the same) in HT's eyes, am I right HT?
(nothing bad ment but this is the view I got when we spoke in the MA earlier) (mening change of subject).
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Urchin, my mistake ! ;) Thats what I get for posting after a six pack of beer and several shots of Wild Turkey 101. Damn my head hurts this morning.
In my drunken haze my mind confused the two.
Sorry Raub and Grun.
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BNM, myself, moose, BigMax, gurge, pimpjoe,and others DO fly the Jugs a lot. And watch gurge fly a Jug and see how many kills he gets before you start labelling anyone who chimes in with a comment as a luftweenie. Some folks are proficient in almost all the planes, and they can tell you things like moose did without deserving the little label you threw on him.
While I am not a LW fan, I do recognize that those planes do have some outstanding qualities, such as climb and acceleration. Kinda nice to be able to enter the combat zone with plenty of alt under your wings and all, but still.........getting kills in a 109, from my own experience, takes patience.
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The planes are indeed different and of course some planes are easier to get killed by or get kills in than others. To state otherwise is simply ignorant, and to do so with that tired "luftwhiner" tag - especially in this thread - is plainly inflamatory.
BTW - If as you say "La7s are just runners" and the score page says:
BNM has 20 kills and has been killed 21 times against the La-7.
Then I guess you should not be chasing LA7's, because it ain't workin for ya. :)
But stay with the "easy to kill" N1K2, This DOES seem to work for ya :p
BNM has 29 kills and has been killed 9 times in the N1K2.
-----
edit to add: A little truth thrown in never hurts
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Both wilbus.
This line.
these planes aren't the end all be all - it takes more skill to fly them successfully.
Could be a luftwine depending the history of the person, if it's ment as all LW planes take more skill, and only LW planes, then yes it would be a luftwine. If ment as a comparison between LW planes and the spit/n1k then yes it is a very valid statement.
But in reality it's a different set of skills, in the spit - n1k its much easyer for a new player to get kills against a = player in a 109g10.
but now say we have 2 expert players of the same skill, whos most likly to get the kill?
The thing is there are allied planes in the same catagory as the 109s like the P38 & P47's both require more than just T&B skills.
But I would say usinging the luftwiner term in this case is a knee jerk and not valid.
HiTech
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can't we all just be dweebs? :)
BTW, what are "Thought police" ?
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My deffinition of a LuftWhiner.
They need ALL of the folling.
1. Love of LW planes.
2. Frustration that they are not killing as much as they think they should.
3. Blame the plane for lack of the kills.
4. Post or complain about said lack.
5. Repost persived lack or acctual with a demanding or critizing tone.
Not a requirement but very common to the extream whinner.
6. Do some searching and when any one source is found that could meen there plane should be better, post that the current model is porked, even though other sources show whats current could is valid.
Now this set also applies to other plane type lovers, but we are just talking LW here.
And for me I realy make no destinction between the post, it's just that the LuftWhine is more common as a group.
HiTech
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now that's the REAL hitech :)
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Originally posted by hitech
2. Frustration that they are not killing as much as they think they should.
3. Blame the plane for lack of the kills.
These two points place you in a situation where u surely cant name a single LuftWhiner in the entire AH comunity.
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
These two points place you in a situation where u surely cant name a single LuftWhiner in the entire AH comunity.
Many of us could, I won't. Number 3 happens often and is the result of number 2.
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I fly all planes. Like to experiment some. Only been playing AH about 6-7 months. Never said I was good at anything I just said the statement "it takes more skill to fly them successfully." gets the LW boyz picked on and is definately luftweenie. Can't argue with that or you look like an i..... nevermind. I use Niki sometimes in base defense. Fly 51 or 47 on long runs flying with some alt. Fly 109 G-10 or Spit when I want easy kills. Doesn't really matter to me what anyone thinks of my flying skills or lack therof, I just get tired of the gamers/alt dweebs/etc... thinking they are God's gift to ACM.
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1. Love of LW planes.
2. Frustration that they are not killing as much as they think they should.
3. Blame the plane for lack of the kills.
4. Post or complain about said lack.
5. Repost persived lack or acctual with a demanding or critizing tone.
Not a requirement but very common to the extream whinner.
6. Do some searching and when any one source is found that could meen there plane should be better, post that the current model is porked, even though other sources show whats current could is valid.
So how could I be a luftwhiner? It was a long long time ago since I posted any complaints without actual facts to support it and yet you say "that's why people refer to you as a luftwhiner*. (which I haven't been called personally in a long time either).
I love LW planes but that alone does not make me a luftwhiner.
Going from your list there, I was a luftwhiner before. That was before I really started digging into things and use many different valid sources. This would also mean that I am no longer seen as a luftwhiner from your eyes... if your list is true to you.
Right?
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I agree with HiTech on the definition, 100 percent.
If the folks who spout off about how badly the LW iron needs this or needs that would take the time to compare how the two main LW fighters, the 109 and 190, do against the top three Allied rides (P-51, Spits V, IX, and XIV, and the La7), they would see that the LW iron holds a positive k/d ratio against almost all of them. And those rides "need" more? :rolleyes:
Like HiTech said, sometimes it appears as though some LW fans, and others too, want nothing less than a superplane to zoom around the arena in, when what they have now is more than capable of getting the job done.
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Wilbus:
But we all know the Tiffie was a supreme fighter at all altitudes. We also know for a fact, that is suported by aeorynamic facts and theories and physic laws that the thicker the wing is, the better high speed handeling.
Give it up Mandoble, not worth it.
Don't even bother Gatr, not worth it, it's porked in more ways then any other plane in the game, been up before. Not worth the time mate.
The Ta152 is wrong, it's been proven and lots of non LW fliers agree with it after seeing lots of evidence
And what exactly do you meen by these statments?
HiTech
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I am not innocent of going into a tirade about my favorite ride.
Eighteen months, maybe two years ago I went off really bad, after Widewing posted excerpts from his interview with Robert S. Johnson and his P-47D-5, "Lucky".
I dug and dug, talked with numerous vets and others about the engine mods Mr. Johnson described, tried to sway HT and Pyro into modellling those mods into the AH Jugs.
In the end, I felt foolish from having spouted off so loudly.
FWIW, HiTech, I've almost got my interview with that Jug pilot from Amarillo completely transcribed into text now (extremely slow typist am I). Was gonna drag him to the next AH con in Grapevine, but alas.............Indiana is too far for me, much less him.
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FREKING CRAP !!!!! and the money from Luftwhiner are not the same ??? :mad: :mad: :mad:
bah ,
and dont forget target my person
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Money is the same, but TOTAL cost of support can make it a net loss.
HiTech
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
These two points place you in a situation where u surely cant name a single LuftWhiner in the entire AH comunity.
Quite wrong Mandoble. Both of these are summed up with the usual "This plane is porked and it is only because of superior pilots that they even stand a chance!" excuse.
That translates to: "It pisses me off that the plane is not better" and "If the pilot is superior, but the plane isn't getting more kills, then it must be the plane."
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by eddiek
Like HiTech said, sometimes it appears as though some LW fans, and others too, want nothing less than a superplane to zoom around the arena in,
And we got it too! The me163 is a lot of fun.
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Let's leave HiTech alone so that he can work on the P-39 code.
:)
eskimo
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HT , and the loses of clients when they got inaf ??? did you observe ? sure you must have database on your clients, you always sorting old remarks and posts with detail ,< just like CIA >
to klasify your clients
i thing your place is to keep the balance , and not play who is the wrong guy and who the nice
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Originally posted by minus
FREKING CRAP !!!!! and the money from Luftwhiner are not the same?
The money is the same, the demands are not.
AKDejaVu
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ahhhh , so what i demandet more like you ????
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Yes, a statement that "no one cares at HTC" or "undeniable proof met with derision or nothing at all. its the htc way" is part of all this too.
That stuff is pure and utter baloney of the most rancid type. It is damaging to the game and the community, IMO.
I am of the opinion that AH is BY FAR the best overall WW2 MMOG dealing with ACM that we have seen to date and that management's decision on pricing has also made it the greatest value for the money... and small money it is... we have seen to date in this genre.
That's my opinion. YMMV.
Thus to see tripe like the above posted does indeed bias my view of whatever else that poster has to say.
I think somewhere recently HT posted that they generally don't always comment in those "new information" threads. Clearly, though, he indicated that they read them. I fully understand why they don't comment; like these last few threads, it only leads to quibbling and semantic gymnastics and wastes a lot of development time.
Anyone here rather see HT working on the Mission Arena rather than having to deal with tripe like:
"undeniable proof met with derision or nothing at all. its the htc way" ?
Because he HAS to deal with that stuff; it directly addresses the credibility of his company.
I doubt anyone has a problem with:
"I have doubts about this item. Here is some new data I found. Please take a look at it and see what you think."
F4UDOA has taken this approach several times. No one (well, no rational person) accuses him of "whining". He's persistent, he's polite.
You never see "don't care". I don't know if he's gotten any of his requested changes as yet. But I know he's respected for his approach/technique. I salute him. I wish the rest were more like him.
I believe some of his changes will eventually come to pass if he is found to be correct. I just don't think this stuff happens instantly when the game is continyually expanding and changing.
It's the accusatory statements of bias, either overt or subtle that draw fire. They probably always will.
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Actually, the fact that someone feels the need to demand anything is a subtle problem. The fact that you feel the need to demand everything is a major one.
AKDejaVu
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Incorect minus, my job is very simply to do whats best for HTC.
If I can get rid of one client to gain 2 that is the question.
This sounds cold dosn't it, and makeing that judment of when it's time is not a simple task. It involves much more than I can express because to strcikt of attidude can kill the fun of, and so can a to lax attitude.
HiTech
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dont turn around ! and tel me if any demand was more like others demand ?
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Think of it this way minus...
Have you ever posted without using an exclamation point? Or several of them? Or several question marks?
AKDejaVu
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HT , hope the future perfect ,,alied paradise,, game will brink much more success to AH
but plaese doint in next 2 year , not yet :)
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This is unbelievable.....
You get HT fully engaged in this toejam and still aren't happy because, before the complaint was he would never respond....now he's fully engaged in numerous threads of this type and........it's you don't like how he responds.....
HT, it is your business, and yours to run. I applaud the fact that you are an independent businessman. I think your customer service, to me when I have had an issue, has been excellent.
I don't know toejam from shinola when it comes to modeling, except if it is a Cessna 172 or Piper Tomahawk (eek, btw), so if the models allow me to have fun in your game, I keep paying the monthly fee. Which I still do, even though my flying time is almost at zero due to R/L stuff. I believe in supporting your company in this way.
I've seen Pryo respond to FM suggestions in the past, and trust that he will do so in the future. I believe your company to be very diligent in its research and application of that research to provide a fairly accurate fascimile of that research. I also know that all this toejam ain't perfect, nor do I expect it to be.
If I ever take this game more serious than the hobby it is meant to be, and stress more about this than I do R/L issues, I will stop playing this and other sims.
If I ever elevate any perceived slight in a game to hyperbolic R/L analogies, I hope I step away for awhile as well.
By this post, I'm almost there it appears.....STUPID SOAPBOX...go away...I want CHICKEN POT PIE!.....whew better.
And before any thin-skinned ninnies think this is addressed specifically to them.......if the shoe fits, then stick it in your mouth :)
Cobra
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HiTech, I find it incredible that you would spend so much time going toe to toe with Grunherz over what does and does not constitute a Luftwhiner and the growing danger of anti whine whiners, when the larger issue of truly abusive behavior in the main arena goes unmentioned. I'd much prefer to see you creating a clear and concise acceptable use policy and enforcing it, rather than splitting hairs over this little issue.
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aztec, it's my view that it's all the same issue, we just happen to be descussing a sub component.
HiTech
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Originally posted by hitech
aztec, it's my view that it's all the same issue, we just happen to be descussing a sub component.
HiTech
Aye..this is a community thing. This place is a macro for the community. Many here influence the community more than they know. Pep's "admire" indiv w/"skills" in this game. The wish to be around them. Its simply the social order thing poping up in another social situation.
HiTech does something unheard of in the gaming industry unless the game is in a "beta" phase. He takes time to respond to posts/threads like this. This alone shows a commitment to his work.community.
The AH community has grown quickly suddenly. He's being nailed w/a varity of complex "social" problems w/in his game that could have a negative impact. The thing is... he addressing them. He's posted here he's concerned/aware.
The luffwaff thing is simple... I used them as an example of indiv's who where getting nailed hard when even though they post stuff in a calm rational manner.
Hitech addressed his views on the previous paragraph ^ earlier w/in this thread.
The key to all of this is for ANY SIDE to CEASE the knee jerk reactions. Attacks on HTC achieve nothing. Personal attacks on some handsomehunk's rant only enrage them more and develope a foxhole mentality.. me against the world.
This is a great game... it took me approx 2-3 days (if that,doh) to miss it.
Its the people and how the react to/within the game though that make it ethier an enjoyable experience or not.
Most of you gents here are leaders in the virtual world of the MA/CT etc... remember this. People like to be lead... set a good example here and there. Hell, it COULD carry over to RL ehhh?
FatBat
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If you viewed my comment as an attack then you are mistaken. I feel this subcomponent is recieving far more attention than it deserves and that the larger issue of abusive behavior in general is what WE ALL should be focused on.
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fix the spit 5!!
It is a UFO!
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everyone:
I am arguing that the LW whiners are getting attacked out of proportion and singled out for specific attacks to an extent unlike any other group regardless of whaty the actual post is most of thime. I have never denied there are LW loudmouths who make a bad name for everyone rather i am drawing attention to the fact there are belligerant loudmouth whiners from all the camps, like Funked and Fester and Lazs and the P38 gang yet it does not seem to paint eveyone else as a "alliedwhiners" or whatever you like. Everyone does this yet it's clear that only one group is so categorically and systematically singled out as luftwhiners - unfortunately even hitech still clings to that description and thats does much harm wherether hes aware of it or not - his use of the word brings legitemacy and implied approval of its use as a description and to the community as an insulting stereotype. One of the best things hitech could do is move away from that insulting label and set an example for everyone, because he is the key to solving this.
What LW guys need to do is take from this thread a positive message and see that indeed there is hope. Now that sounds hokey I know but In my experience most of this LW anger and uptight behavior has come from a loss of hope brough on by the systematic attacks and feeling HTC doesnt care. Well now its obvious hitech cares and is devoting a lot of time to solve this issue. So in the future please calm down and dont use extreme statements and all caps and whatever, its obvious this is unproductive and pisses HTC off. Now of course I think you guys have made some good points and that you should argue them vigorously and fairly - but its difficult when under personal attacks but try your best and remember they are trying to get you to blow up.
To the guys attacking "luftwhiners" and generally the "whine police" if you will. I leave you only with Rude's words regarding his stated attitude about his continued posting of WOW insult and humiliation threads:
"As to future WOW threads....they'll come as I feel inclined to post them or until HT says enough of that."
It seems that is an attitude shared by most of when it comes to insulting people on the BBS. Think about that.
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Seek a support group Grun... you ain't gonna get one here.
-SW
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About friggin' time Classy Man showed up!
And a very true post as well!
Cobra
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SW just continue making fun of people and insulting them.... It's the best thing you can do.
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People and them can be replaced by you...
and I'll continue to point out how teary eyed your posts are claiming that the poor LW is the only group of people singled out and attacked the most.
Nevermind quite a few of them brought it upon themselves... and at the same time attack other groups. People who fly Spits, N1K2s, La7s and P51Ds to name a few.
-SW
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Grunherz,
Read the last WOW highlighted post. Then re-read what you just posted.
I find it pathetic that you've wasted this much time on what you feel to be rude's insulting of sachs (or anyone in the WOW), yet you did not say anything in regards to Sach's insulting of HTC, the community and pretty much anyone in the US. There's no comradere there... there's no apparent support group thing going on there... nah.
I guess that isn't so harmfull. We should strive to understand what makes sachs feel the need to be so insulting and work to fix that problem. Its the proper thing to do, but people like rude make that so difficult. Rude just complains and insults people.... who were complaining and insulting people. I wonder what the best way to get rude to stop posting the "WOW" is?
AKDejaVu
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face it grun... every sane person in the game hates the LW but more importantly... they all hate you personally. I know you knew that.... I just thought I would get it out in the open.
lazs
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DJ
You are saying some guy was bad because he insultted people and went off the deep end, but its not bad if one of your friends then embarasses them and deliberatly draws attention to that personns moment of lunacy and then procedds to deliberatly humiliate them and insult them. How are they different? Hitech says they are the same, and pretty much agree.
SW
Those are convenient distractions you bring up but the extent of the attacks and mean spirited vitriol flung at those considered luftwhiners is in no way comporable to those gameplay jokes. For gods sake dont you evenmpy attention to the things you write in supposed luftwhiner threads.
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Originally posted by lazs2
face it grun... every sane person in the game hates the LW but more importantly... they all hate you personally. I know you knew that.... I just thought I would get it out in the open.
lazs
Thanks for another mocking and insulting response! You just cant help it, the attack and insult are so ingrained in your mindset when it comes to dealing with people you consider luftwhiners. Its amazing.
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Yup... and I pay attention to what I'm reply too.... unlike you.
But that's really funny.. the only reason it's not comparable is because you aren't on the other side. This is such a one sided issue for you that it's always the poor LW getting it.
You just can't see the forest for the trees.
But hey... is there REALLY any other group in AH that is such high maintenance? (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3222)
I don't think there is... they easily toss the toejam at people, when it comes back they get their leather undies in a bunch and start crying like a five year old.
-SW
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I simply asked a few questions, I dont see how I threw anything at anyone...
What exactly do you think you prove with any of the threads you link to?
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Grun: You are trying hard to shift blame to the wrong people.
It is very simply the Luftwhiners that caused and continue to cause there own problems, don't expect any sympathy from me or some stupid politcly correct use of words. They need to clean up there act, the rest will follow with out much help.
HiTech
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I proved that the conspiracy theory amongst certain LW does in fact exist.
It's plain as day, and this must be the third time I've said it.
And it's more than evident you aren't reading my posts, just turning them into what you want to read.
I dont see how I threw anything at anyone...
Carefully read the following:
You: Those are convenient distractions you bring up but the extent of the attacks and mean spirited vitriol flung at those considered luftwhiners is in no way comporable to those gameplay jokes.
Me: they easily toss the toejam at people, when it comes back they get their leather undies in a bunch and start crying like a five year old.
-SW
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
DJ
You are saying some guy was bad because he insultted people and went off the deep end, but its not bad if one of your friends then embarasses them and deliberatly draws attention to that personns moment of lunacy and then procedds to deliberatly humiliate them and insult them. How are they different? Hitech says they are the same, and pretty much agree.
How did rude insult the person? By calling him a whiner? Are you saying that post was not a whine? One thread is saying "I'm sick and tired of this community" and the other is saying "The community is sick and tired of this thread". Does Rude's newly found use of his name in third person merrit an ego check? Perhaps. But that's not really what you are posting about. As for what the community does or doesn't believe in regards to Rude's threads... well... read all the posts (not just the ones you agree with) and try to get an overall feel for it yourself.
As for what HiTech does and doesn't say... you may want to read a few more of Rude's WOW threads. HiTech said something in one of them too.
AKDejaVu
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wrong button
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wow, i made it through the whole post......btw anyone gonna fly today?
Happy New Years all :)
Zaphod
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will not let Grun go alone vs all of you , HT if you like or not even some last and not simpathic Lw whiner have some true, if you like it or not ah IS NOT PERFECT :D ,
and all of you big heros who never whine and fly only nice planes,
chill down, otherwise all ugly players who fly ugly planes and the last Lw whiners will leave and you the HEROS will have to shot other HERO , and , i think it will SUXX for you :D :D
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Originally posted by minus
otherwise all ugly players who fly ugly planes and the last Lw whiners will leave and you the HEROS will have to shot other HERO , and , i think it will SUXX for you :D :D
You're joking right? We couldn't chase some of you out of here with a stick. Oh I know, you might say you quit, and even cancel your account, but you'd be back. Not that I wouldn't mind less whining.
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This is my last post in here. Perhaps the Bible can say it better than I can.
"Before removing the mote from thy neighbors eye, attend to the beam in thine own".
Yea, it is pretty clear that there are two segments of the 'population' that don't like eachother much. If one side stops trying to bait the other side, I feel pretty confident that it will all settle down. Either side can start first.
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be back ?? where ???? :D :D yeah , actualy , and not a first time when i not play AH for Months , even not bother cancel acount, just simply cant even se it !!! , so ......
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Originally posted by hitech
Grun: You are trying hard to shift blame to the wrong people.
It is very simply the Luftwhiners that caused and continue to cause there own problems, don't expect any sympathy from me or some stupid politcly correct use of words. They need to clean up there act, the rest will follow with out much help.
HiTech
Fine. But the first thread from now on till forever that some LW guy who posts a perfectly reasonable question and the words luftwhiner or conspiracy enter that thread as some sort of insult should I will bring this post of your's up and ask if you can explain to us all why your theory isnt exactly working out.
And do you think every LW thread is attacked fairly?
The point is while a few guys are making a bad name for LW all of get attacked out of proprotion. You know the very first post I ever wrote on this BBS I was attacked as luftwhiner - only because my id was GRUNHERZ. I never had a history here and I never made trouble - i never even posted but immediateli I was attacked. Was that my fault, did I do something? No!
And Hitech I wasnt shifting blame anywhere I clearly said some LW guys are extreme in their whines but so are a bunch of opther guys who fly allied planes or othr japanes planes or whatever - yet wo dont see a patter of abuse towards them.
Why?
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Grun:
Fine. But the first thread from now on till forever that some LW guy who posts a perfectly reasonable question and the words luftwhiner or conspiracy enter that thread as some sort of insult should I will bring this post of your's up and ask if you can explain to us all why your theory isnt exactly working out.
So you wish to join your bad guys. How about instead post resonably and try to point out that the gentleman wasn't whining, and if he was relize that he pretty much brought any ridicule apon himself.
HiTech
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Well it was my first post with anger, true. Sorry, came this colose to editing it out.
But basically I'm shocked that you dont see the damage that your use of the word luftwhiner does.
Mind if we talk on the phone for a few minutes?
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Sorry not today on phone grunherz.
The resone I'm not shocked is because the word realy fits well for the type of post we are discussing, and that type of post servers no purspose on this board.
HiTech
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Btw grunherz:
One more thing you might want to consider, I get flamed more than any person on this board.
HiTech
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Stupid HTCWhiner! ;)
SOB
PS...Don't listen to Lazs Grun, I still love ya...tho' I do think you've flown off the deep end on this particular subject. And I still enjoy WOW.
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I think Funked is a close second on getting flamed. :D
Cobra
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I give it a 6.2 SOB how about you? Has a touch of the poor is me tone, with very little for originality. No outrage so dosn't rank to high.
HiTech
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Yeah, I'd say that's about right, tho' maybe a bit on the high side. Somehow you managed to spell everything correctly. Perhaps we should consult the German judges? <---hmm, I think there's a more of a joke to be made there :D
SOB
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Originally posted by hitech
Btw grunherz:
One more thing you might want to consider, I get flamed more than any person on this board.
HiTech
Perhaps. But you can do something about it if it's clearly bad or totaly unwarranted attack.
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HT...very solid effort..9.8 from the canadian judge..
some of you others....
seek help (http://www.fids.bc.ca/aspergers.html)
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And what would that somthing be grunherz?
HiTech
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Whatever you want, you own the place. :)
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Quote from Pongo's link:
"Characteristics: ...They usually have a circumscribed area of interest that usually leaves no space for more age appropriate, common interests.
Damn, I was circumscribed shortly after birth, and that general area is definitely an area of interest and tho' I wouldn't call it a luftwobble, I do tend to abuse it. And I'm certainly not thinking about anything intellectual while the abuse is taking place. Good god! Time to get in touch with a good shrink...
SOB
:D
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I think everyone should just go out and get drunk tonight. What are the odds of that? :D
BTW, has the thread degenerated into whining about whining?
Can we bring the HO into this? LOL!!!!
HiTech can you disable guns so they can't be fired in a HO? It just isn't fair!!! heheehe. Sorry, I'm not contributing, but I can't help it, it gets to the point where the ignorance just sinks so far it becomes laughable.
Besides, I have found that no matter how all the planes are modeled, I am consistent in sucking in all of them..lol.
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Originally posted by hitech
I give it a 6.2 SOB how about you? Has a touch of the poor is me tone, with very little for originality. No outrage so dosn't rank to high.
HiTech
I think you dont do yourself justice. It made me feel sorry for you
and I am fairly immune to such emotions ;->
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Originally posted by SOB
Somehow you managed to spell everything correctly.
Well, almost everything. :)
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got somewhere on my old IBM laptop with the BBS pages from old time Warbirds , will take a lok how right HT always was :D
BTW , from the next year i stop whine and play quake:D
left 2 hours for free whine:D
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Originally posted by Cobra
I think Funked is a close second on getting flamed. :D
Cobra
I QUIT!!!
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HT, come on, let's quit!!!
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I was considering a campain to quit picking on bad spellers, we are such a missunderstood group:)
HiTech
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Originally posted by hitech
I was considering a campain to quit picking on bad spellers, we are such a missunderstood group:)
HiTech
I believe its spelled Miss Understood.
AKDejaVu
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minus: spoken like someone who has never created anything, or pushed the edge. Just love to assume making choices is the same as beliving you are always right.
HiTech
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whats she got to do with anyting akdej?
HiTech
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I believe his handle is spelled AKDejaVu. :D
SOB
LOL...yer a quick draw on the edit button, partner.
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Care to face off with mice some time.
What to see the fastest click in the west? Care to see it again?
HiTech
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What this thread needs...................
AirScrew
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Hitech , i do not apreciated your last post , you know nothing about me so keep it for your self , to publish what you cant profe is not CORECT , is it your FIRST polici
so stay in line please :) and turn the page ;)
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so what have you made then minus?
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Stick a fork in it, I think it's done.
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Good, Hitech is posting!
Now about that stall on the Val! Totally undermodeled. It stalls too easy and too soon in your sim. It needs to hold the stall longer.
Please fix Spit V turn radius. It is not as tight as I remembered reading once!
Thank You
Swag
Oh! Have a nice day and Happy New Year!!!
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I swear HT, you are the only person I’ve seen who’s spelling is worse than mine. At least, over time, I’ve learned to use a spell checker. Just think of it as a syntax check. ;) You know, that first compile you do just to see if you’ve fat fingered something. :)
Regards,
Wab
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Originally posted by Sundog
I think everyone should just go out and get drunk tonight. What are the odds of that? :D
I did. That's as far as my interest in this thread goes :D
Gatso
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Time to lock this... ignore it or delete it. This thread has turned into a puppy chasing his tail.
xBAT, fatbat whatever.
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This thread more or less sums up the very definition of "men behaving badly". Most of you are what? Close to 30 years old, or more? Yet on the BBS you behave like uncultured children when given the opportunity. Btw that includes you Hitech. That YOU would even touch something like this thread is a clear indicator of a serious lack of business SA. Remember you are not a person Hitech, you are a company, as clearly stated by your BBS username and signature. If your comments and personal remarks were stated in a more "respectable" media than a BBS you would have made yourself susceptible to lawsuits claming public slander.
Some of you guys practically scared off one of our few female pilots ... for what?
Cobra attached a nice little picture of a Luftwhiner in another thread. I thought it was funny as hell. However in light of this thread I realized it didn't show the whole picture, so I edited it to better illustrate the reality of what some might experience on this BBS. I wonder if it is still funny to you guys ... probably to those of you that have the social intelligence of a nine year old.
Btw. the little guy in the cockpit isn't necessarily a LW, could be anyone on THIS BBS.
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It's a game
1.) There isnt any skill here, your wiggling a joystick not milling a new head etc. thats a skill.
2.) Fly the aircraft of your choice the way its modled its not real so theres nothing to get upset about.
3.) scores are just ones and zero's on a hard drive so its not anything to go balistic about either.
4.) So the real rub here is the humane attitude and maybe letting the imagination get a little to carried away.
5.) Are we all guilty more than likely no one here is perfect the bearded guy left some time ago.
6.) So here we are attacking each other over things that for all intents and purposes dont even exisit. If it were a discussion that would mean all parties have room for change, and there hasnt been much evidence of that here, so what this is is an argument or arguments over a position, do you whine or dont you whine, dont bother with the group mentalitly thing if you adopt it its yours not the groups.
7.) If you beleive you have a legit input to make support it with at least three sources, if that cant be done then in most professional circles it wouldnt have much merit. If the three source point cant be made then there is little reason to carry on unless its just to be rude and abrasive.
8.) Now since this is a game ( competetive is a given ) go for the fun of it, if your ability overcame the next fellow then , he chose poorly you chose wisely mixedd liberally with luck etc. But whatever the outcome it isnt something that can contribute to your resume so it has little merit as a skill but great merit as a competitive game and fun and blows a heck of a lotta time both in the arena and here.
9.) Shake hands, come out fighting, and protect yourselves at all times............. lets get ready to rumble........
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BatDog has already created two of the most important threads in this BBS.
Comedy gold.
And the minus contribution is the icing on the cake. Everytime minus barges into a thread, the quality goes thru the roof in my mind.
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.................
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Well... I certainly hope that if Iexpress an unpopular view someday I am not attacked as badly as grun... the man is being singled out.... and this in the face of the greater LW conspiracy... and for no reason! I have heard that some people actually call others names on this board.
there is obviously a conspoiracy against bad spelers here too.
lazs
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Come to think of it....I have NEVER seen Lazs attacked for his postings on this BBS.....strange things are afoot at the Circle K....
Cobra
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i speel worster than ht . give credit where credit is due.
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Originally posted by GScholz
probably to those of you that have the social intelligence of a nine year old.
Ironic that you start off on the high moral ground although a bit self-righteous but wind up in the latter category with your pic. Now that I think about it, there's no irony arfter all.
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I think you must have misread or misunderstood something in my post AKIron. Read it again. (Hint: nothing is supposed to be fun, sarcastic, ironic, or self-righteous. Including the picture.)
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I better leave this thread before I respond...
damn.
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Originally posted by GScholz
I think you must have misread or misunderstood something in my post AKIron. Read it again. (Hint: nothing is supposed to be fun, sarcastic, ironic, or self-righteous. Including the picture.)
Let's see, you criticized others for their ridicule of others and yet in the same post ridicule them with an offensive image. I think I understood it quite well.
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AKIron how are you different than me now? or: Dont you think that picture is clever and accurately describes the people, I mean they did bring it on themselves...
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
AKIron how are you different than me now? or: Dont you think that picture is clever and accurately describes the people, I mean they did bring it on themselves...
Besides me being much better looking and more intelligent? ;)
You're defending the whiners and I generally ridicule them. I have no problem with the picture, I was just attempting to point out hypocrisy.
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Then youre a whiner...
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Then youre a whiner...
hehe...I've been called worse
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Originally posted by AKIron
Let's see, you criticized others for their ridicule of others and yet in the same post ridicule them with an offensive image. I think I understood it quite well.
To whom it may concern...
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Jeez, Iron... I hope that last doesn't cause you to take to drunkenness, beat your wife or consider slashing your wrists.
Try to be strong!
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Originally posted by Toad
Jeez, Iron... I hope that last doesn't cause you to take to drunkenness, beat your wife or consider slashing your wrists.
Try to be strong!
I've been looking for a good excuse to beat my wife, if it wasn't for the fact that she would kick my bellybutton I might have tried. :D
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I think everyone should just go out and get drunk tonight. What are the odds of that?
I did too, new years eve, still hungover...
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Originally posted by hitech
Grun: You are trying hard to shift blame to the wrong people.
It is very simply the Luftwhiners that caused and continue to cause there own problems, don't expect any sympathy from me or some stupid politcly correct use of words. They need to clean up there act, the rest will follow with out much help.
HiTech
Wow... we'll we all know where we stand in the good'ole boy network around here now don't we LOL!!
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Originally posted by Tumor
Wow... we'll we all know where we stand in the good'ole boy network around here now don't we LOL!!
"we"?
Check HT's post of 12-31-2002 10:06 AM to see if the shoe fits.
If it does, it has nothing to do with any network.
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Originally posted by Toad
"we"?
Check HT's post of 12-31-2002 10:06 AM to see if the shoe fits.
If it does, it has nothing to do with any network.
Threads like these make the bbs interesting. The best part is watching the same old hands line up to suck-up to HiTech again and again while drooling at the opportunity of a pig-pile. Reminds me of elementary playground activity lol.
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"The best part is watching the same old hands line up to suck-up to HiTech again and again while drooling at the opportunity of a pig-pile."
tend to agree with ya on that one
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Originally posted by Tumor
Threads like these make the bbs interesting. The best part is watching the same old hands line up to suck-up to HiTech again and again while drooling at the opportunity of a pig-pile. Reminds me of elementary playground activity lol.
And it isn't the same "old hands" once again here talking about how persecuted they are for acting like an ass?
:rolleyes:
AKDejaVu
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Interesting view. Not making baseless accusations of bias is considered "sucking up" I guess.
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I guess the "good ole boy network" is whatever group you may feel left out of or disagree with?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Then youre a whiner...
Now I thought you had a problem with this particular type of name calling?
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Originally posted by Toad
Interesting view. Not making baseless accusations of bias is considered "sucking up" I guess.
Hey I guess if you were King your ~opinion~ could be mandated as fact eh? :D
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HOLY BS THREAD THAT WON'T DIE :eek:
culero ;)
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Well rude my position is that most people here whine a lot, and that pretty much the only group singled out categorically for whining and attacked syatematically for it regardless if its a genuine whine are the "luftwhiners". Just go look at lazs current GV thread, sure some people disagree with him but none of it reaches the vitriol spewed out if for example a LW guy complained that GV 50cals are overdone or why arent his acts condeming every USN type in AH as a whiner.
And Toad I find it funny how you think what were saying are "baseless accusations" how exactly do you know what somebodys experience here is when they are being made fun of and harrased like this- especially when you and your friends are often the attackers?
Its also interesting that the playground analogy comes up again...
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Grunherz: I agree with you on the only group getting singled out.
The question is WHY they get singled out. My contention is because it's the only group that whines in a harmony that echos on forever. All other groups are purly solo, hence not groups.
And if you don't belive it echos on forever none stoping, here is a post I made 2 months ago.
Hazed, let me lay it out for you. What funkedup is refering to in the squeeky wheel, is not that the items you disagree with in the game are the squeeky wheels, wrather that YOU are a squeeky wheel. The resone why are simple statements like this.
"The cooling times question i asked I tried my damndest to understand your explanation but I still dont have a clear indication of the reasons for the differing times in AH."
On that issue I answered you twice. Yet here we are at least a month later and you are once again squeeking about it.
We try look into any VALID discussion of flight modling that could be incorect, and have responded to some like the rocket pod jetison before.
That question is a choice on our part to make them not jetisonable, because all players would just jetison after use, and that is not how they were used. The jetison was for emergancy only, and not disposable. There for in an effort to be more realistic we chose not to have them jetisonable. And now once again just this statment will lead to another heated argument.
So now who is it that is causing the "TONE" of this type of statements?
"As i see it the whole tone of some of the threads is detrimental to AH as they often hint at HTC ignoring or avoiding the issues brought forward."
HTC by not spending the time holding the hands ,and giving a few squeeky players extra atention?
Or the "SQUEEKY" players who tend to only bring up items that would make there beloved planes better?
I'm not positive about this, but where in the last year have you posted an item where any LW plane is to good at somthing?
And if you realy belive that me answereing your first question would make an issue stop, I belive you are greatly mistaken.
The out come would be one of a few.
If I said yes, we are looking into it. Then we decided it's ok. You would come right back at us and argue some more that it's NOT ok.
If I said we have looked into it, and it's OK you would then bring the topic back up again in 2 weeks. Or just go away stomping your feet claming we don't care about accuracy.
A lot of the time the best way for us answere this stuff, is to not respond until we are positive we are going to change somthing.
Even then it can work out better if we just change it, and put it in the readme at release.
There was a post a few days back how incorect or ar234 was because it had a skid not wheels, should I imeaditly respond that we will look into it. Or that no you are mistaken, take time diging up the resources on which version had what to get into that discusion?
Please realize that when you belive that somthing is incorect the burden of proof lies with you, it is not our job to prove what we have is correct. The resone is simple, how many times and to many people would have to keep proving it.
HiTech
Is the wheel still squeeking in harmony?
HiTech
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I am say once more, ME 163 fly like bad brick. Fix it or I am quit AH. Not to return mind you!!:mad: :mad: :mad:
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I see what you mean and basically agree, I have seen many posts that go too far and are too agressive. I dont for example often understand Mandobles requestst and extreme statements. And this seems pretty bad because It seems you guys shy away from such threads because of their tone even if a good discovery is made there possibly.
But I would like to add another thing. My basic contention is that most of us love these the planes and like to study them and collect books etc. And similarly we we have a few particular planes we love the most and know them best and from that we argue things one way or another and all of us do it. And often enough any of us go overboard and whine.
What I think happends with "luftwhiner" is that it just feeds on itself. For example there are a number of posts I made that I think were reasonable and just asking fair questions, then I get slammed as luftwhiner by half a dozen guys for no reason except that I have a LW type game id. Naturally I'm a bit shocked and feel its unfair - I also begin to be agitated. The next time I kindly ask that nobody please make fun of me and that they just answer my questions - then im called a sissy luftwhiner and made fun of by the same half dozen or so and so on and so on. Largely becaause one is identified as a group are you attacked. I think that playes a big part in how some of these LW posters get agintated and agrresive in their posts over time. Certainly is a plausible pattern. Im not saying they are blameless but i think the systematic attacks bring the desperation and hostility to another level in their posts. And i think it should stop.
Earlier you asked me what could be done. In one thread Rude said he would never stop his harrasing and insulting WOW threads unless you told him to shut up, so its clear your word carries much weight. So one thing you could do if you wanted is to get on peoples case if they unfairly attack a post by some LW guy just asking a question. Basically if the words luftwhiner or conspiracy end up in that thread as some obviously unwarranted sytematic attack, just tell them to stuff it and that they are out of line. Just like you told me once when I got pissy in this thread, that was good for me and the discussion because I did get hostile for a moment and that got us sidetracked. Just try something like that based on you judgement with some considertion to what we have been talking about. I think it would help to get some action on that side.
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Post a link to one of those threads. Please. Just one.
AKDejaVu
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My first podt for example. Or the Tiger I thread. You go find them...
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Grunherz: I belive your assement is fair, and your solution to 1/2 the problem is resonable.
But now what about the other half of the problem with statmenents like the 163 above?
HiTech
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I think thats hblair immitating of mandoble. :)
Basically the same thing, if they are out of line tell them as best you can to stuff it and that they are out of line. I think if they see that on both ends they will listen better. One of the things they always mention "HT does not listen or HT does not care or HT is biased" I think they would respond better to your requests to tone down the whine stuff if they saw you cared and treated people the same when they are out of line in their posts.
I guess I'm saying you shouldnt undersstimate your power here and how much people want some sense of approval and support from you and how much they would do for you if you smiled on them even if rebuking them. Thats sort of why i brought up the teacher and schoolchildren analogy- you have that kind of infulence.
Thats one thing I can think of right now..
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quote:
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Originally posted by SOB
Gatr,
Like with any other plane in the game, if you feel there's something wrong, and have reliable data to prove it, HTC will listen.
SOB
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Not so, SOB. A month or two ago, Duedel had a good post about the 152, pointed out most of the things that are wrong with our 152. He had LW charts about plane specs; my memory fails me, but our model either had a secondary wep system, or didn't have wing tanks. This was all relevant data, and HTC did not listen.
================================================
Or this one just posted by wetrat in the 152 thread ... Grun ... seems like you need to put the fire out in your own camp first.
Go on over there and give him hell !!! Tell him that his attitude is ruining it for the serious LW fan.
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Wish your method would work grunherz, but re read my above post to hazed, and then take a look at his post in the last 2 months, as far as I can tell not 1 thing has changed in his manor of posting. Would you agree with this assesment?
Basicly i'm think much more drastic action is needed as a shock treament.
(sorry about singling you out hazed, you just make a classic example)
HiTech
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Originally posted by hitech
Grunherz: I belive your assement is fair, and your solution to 1/2 the problem is resonable.
But now what about the other half of the problem with statmenents like the 163 above?
HiTech
Seeing how the 163 flies like an angel on speed, I think he's making a joke. Perhaps the joke would be obvious to the Spanish? (Cultural problems may occur on an international BBS like this one) If it's not a joke, the he's just plain wrong, and should be ignored. If he leaves ... let him leave. No reason to get agitated over a post like that.
Another thing; asking LWs to cry out when their rides are too good? ... It's a bit much to ask IMHO. They won't even notice it, because it saves their hide in a fight. However if the plane is not as good as they think it should be ... they die and get pissed.
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I see your point and how it does not seem to work.
One thing that could perhaps be a diffrence then and after now is this thread and your obvious demonstration of concern regarding the overall situation and your apparent intentions to see something done on both sides - which i think is the key to solving this.
To me it seems so much of that built up negativity and hostility came from a lack of hope, both from often being unfairly harrased over time and not seeing any chance of an end to it. I guess it sounds hokey but thats often the feeling I got, that of lost hope, that they fealt there was nithing loose because there was nothing to gain.
I think its a worth a try, at worst we will have to think up something new.
But it's exellent this discussion is happening!
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Grunherz,
If you make the claim, please back it up. The "go find it yourself" comment is too typical. I have no doubt its there somewhere, You're the one raising the stink, it would be nice to see you back it up.
It seems there are people you just can't seem to be bothered with either and you're more than happy to say so. What was this thread about again? People being quickly dismissed?
AKDejaVu
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DJ just look over the responses by SW and lazs and others in this thread or the other recent thread, I think that will be pretty fair summation. Not the innumerable use of the words luftwhiner and conspiracy. That pretty much tells the tale I think.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
To me it seems so much of that built up negativity and hostility came from a lack of hope, both from often being unfairly harrased over time and not seeing any chance of an end to it. I guess it sounds hokey but thats often the feeling I got, that of lost hope, that they fealt there was nithing loose because there was nothing to gain.
Back to reality...this is a GAME!
If a game is making you feel this way then you probably got lot bigger problems than being labeled a luftwhiner.
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Originally posted by BigGun
Back to reality...this is a GAME!
If a game is making you feel this way then you probably got lot bigger problems than being labeled a luftwhiner.
Bingo.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
DJ just look over the responses by SW and lazs and others in this thread or the other recent thread, I think that will be pretty fair summation. Not the innumerable use of the words luftwhiner and conspiracy. That pretty much tells the tale I think.
You're going to have to do better than to cite 2 players in this thread grunherz. Really. I mean we could cite a few more in the other direction. Please post a link to a thread where you calmly presented a perceived discrepancy and were flamed for it. It should be easy.
AKDejaVu
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Not really. The BBS type things and the internet in general are becoming just another forum for people to communicate and interact and be "with" other people. Its now no diffrent than talking to friends on the phone or writing letters to family or incresingly just hanging out with your internet buddies so to speak. Now of course there is a difference that people bring up, if you dont like it just go to next wepbage or leave alltogether but so can you do in real life, at the expense of giving up participation in that community. However doing that largely acts to condone the abusive behavior because its seen as an effective arguing tacitc, it ridicules people till they give in, give up or get out - and thats bad. You miss the point it's not about the game its about people.
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DJ this thread is an obvious example that illustrates my point perfectly.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
DJ this thread is an obvious example that illustrates my point perfectly.
To be honest Grun, it illustrates the luft-thing just as perfectly.
Cobra
PS...When this gets to 300, BAN BATDOG!...and make Funked QUIT because he likes the Raiders :D
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YOu raised a stink about it Grun, and I debunked your statement that the "conspiracy theory is only a means to insult people" and is in fact quite real.
Using my replies as a means to show that everyone is out to get the poor LW is far from giving you any advantage in this discussion.
If anything, it proves that some of those things you say don't exist do in fact exist amongst many LW fans and thusly hurts your argument.
But, keep on complaining... it's funny as hell to read.
-SW
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BAN COBRA OR I QUIT!!!
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All your posts show SW is a bunch of frusrtated "luftwhine" type people whining, they also show a second group of people that largely show us why the first group is so frustrated and hostile.
And again your the only guys brining up conspirascy, odd isnt it?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
DJ this thread is an obvious example that illustrates my point perfectly.
No Grun, it actually does nothing to prove any point. You've gone out of your way to ensure that.
Once again grun... just back up the statement. Get the data. Put the time in to support your statement. If you don't want to do that, you're being lazy and you're simply whining. Sorry to say that, but its true.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
All your posts show SW is a bunch of frusrtated "luftwhine" type people whining, they also show a second group of people that largely show us why the first group is so frustrated and hostile.
The first group wrought the second group. There's plenty of anti-whiners out there... anytime complains about the game, company, or players they get nailed by someone. You only want to see one side of the issue, that's fine... but don't think just because you have a convenient name made up for you, you are the only group. Luft Waffe... LuftWhine... hey, if you can find something more convenient lemme know..
And again your the only guys brining up conspirascy, odd isnt it? [/B]
Not really, "you guys" are the only ones insinuating there is something against the LW and in favor of the allies.
If it's odd you get called out for something that is being insinuated by you, then I guess it is odd... but if I said "HTC always ignores LW threads", I would expect to be called out for hinting that there's a bias (hence conspiracy) against LW planes.
-SW
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DJ I got my point accross and were making progress where it counts, with people who are realizing there is a problem here and are satisfied discussion is under way and wish to move forward. Im happy and this is good progress for the community. As for your questions again I tell you just read over this tread and the other one for the style of attacking rsponse and calls of luftwhiner and conspiracy.
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SW the calls of conspiracy really seem to be just something made up as insult, a very good one I admit as conspiracy nuts are very funny.
And like i said the 'luftwhiner" thing is just feeding on itself. Whatever merit it may have had as joke one day is now completly sucked up in a cycle of inflating hostility and needless insults even to people and ideas and questions that dont deserve it.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
And Toad I find it funny how you think what were saying are "baseless accusations" how exactly do you know what somebodys experience here is when they are being made fun of and harrased like this- especially when you and your friends are often the attackers?
Just catching up to this thread and starting at the top.
Here's a COMMON baseless accusation by those you purport to defend against "attacks"...
"HTC is biased against LW aircraft and biased in favor of allied aircraft".
THAT is a baseless accusation that has OFTEN been made.
If someone points this out, you view it as an "attack". Horsedoobers. The "ATTACK" is made by the person accusing HTC of bias.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
SW the calls of conspiracy really seem to be just something made up as insult, a very good one I admit as conspiracy nuts are very funny.
Mandoble clearly said that the 190A5 was dumbed down immediately after whining about it's vertical manuevering abilities.
If you can't see that's obviously a smack at saying there's a bias (hence conspiracy), then I really want to know what you think it is. Frustration or not, keep that crap to yourself... you ain't helping anyone's cause with it.
That ain't the only instance, but it's a perfect example. But, like I been saying... you only want to see the side of the issue you agree with...
And like i said the 'luftwhiner" thing is just feeding on itself. Whatever merit it may have had as joke one day is now completly sucked up in a cycle of inflating hostility and needless insults even to people and ideas and questions that dont deserve it.
If someone is LuftWhining, they deserve to be called on it. If they aren't LuftWhining, then they don't deserve to be called on it.
-SW
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DJ, I could go grab a few, last one in my mind wasn't LW but one with mitsu & flap lift comes to mind.
And quite frankly your not helping this case.
On the just a game comment, your correct it's just a game to you gentlemen,and my job is to make it that way as much as possible,but to me it's food.
And we are not discussing the game dynamics here but wrather community dynamics, which for HTC is part of the food equeation.
BTW on a personal note, what generaly will get a person ignored the most be me, is if they post in a demanding tone. The only thing any player has a right to demand from us , is to close there account when they wish.
The only releationship we realy have is we provide a service & software, players provide $15. Any changes to the game can not be demanded by players, post that request a change will get our attention much faster.
It's just basic golden rule stuff.
HiTech
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Originally posted by BigGun
Back to reality...this is a GAME!
If a game is making you feel this way then you probably got lot bigger problems than being labeled a luftwhiner.
Bingo, Funked?
More like "Largest Ever Powerball Jackpot Winner"
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Sorry HiTech, but contrary to popular belief, I don't do everything simply to make you happy.
Once again, I simply ask that a link is posted that shows a LuftWaffe fan posting an unbiased level headed assesment of a problem in the game and getting flamed for it.
I find it ironic that you could only think of an IJN example, when someone else is trying to show it only happens to LW fans.
AKDejaVu
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Toad like I said before this it not a discussion about game FM or damage model - the issue is how people interact and the community. That will effect people because even though there is computer in between us in the ed its just people communicating and interacting. So I think his statement is in error concering the issues here.
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Tumor, sounds like you're proposing that anyone that can't publicly find fault with AH and post criticism is "sucking up".
Let me make a few statements and see if you agree with any or all:
1. AH is, to date, the best MMOG featuring WW2 aircraft and ACM.
2. AH has, to date, the best servers and netcoding of any WW2 ACM MMOG.
3. AH is an extremely good value at 50 cents a day.
4. AH is continually and routinely updated. Improvements never cease.
5. AH has an extremely good support staff and has a great track record of soliciting customer input.
Agree with any or all of those? Which do you disagree with?
Thx.
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I agree with all those Toad. AH is an excellent game and well worth 15 the subscription.
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Ok..well if the association with the community aspect of a GAME is making you feel hostile, negative, hopeless, dispair....then there is bigger issues to deal with other than being labeled a LWhiner.
To me the flying computer part and the community part are the combined Game. So when referring to "GAME" it includes all aspects.
PS..and I agree with all of above Toads comments. Cheapest damn entertainment/fun I have found.
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Today the internet for most people has become just another way to interact with others, I see no reason why that should exclude any positive or negative outcomes of communication - unless you are saying personally no intaraction between people in your life gets you upset or hostile at times. The only diffrence I see is overall in internet ibntearaction the factor of annonimity and distance, but one can argue that our familiarty here reduces that. I do wonder though if for example Mandoble acts and talks extremly like this in real life or if Rude jumps on his desk shouting at work and humiliates his coworkers.
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Originally posted by Toad
Tumor, sounds like you're proposing that anyone that can't publicly find fault with AH and post criticism is "sucking up".
Thx.
Toad, thats a broad stroke don't you think? Nice try but the subject will remain what I intended, not what you would like it to be. "Same old hands" and "pig pile" stand.
As for your question? My opinion of Aces High is just that. Why do you want to know? You got the pig-pile regulars ready to go just in case it's not pro-HTC (or cod forbid, even criticism?) Thats my point.
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Yeah, I've got nothing better to do today :) Here are your Tiger posts Grun...
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=64888
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=65266
SOB
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
If you can't see that's obviously a smack at saying there's a bias (hence conspiracy) ... ... ...
Eh ... I think you should read up on you own language; bias is not synonymous with conspiracy.
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Maybe not, but when it's said that the German planes are held back while the allied ones aren't....
well, yeah... that is a conspiracy.
-SW
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HTC could display bias for any number of reasons; personal dislike of the LW, LW connection with Nazism, nationalism with regard to US planes, etc. etc. This bias could even be unknown to HTC. He may just believe that the LW rides were bad. Nothing to do with conspiracy. Conspiracy indicates that there has to be a plan, a plot involving others, to be deliberately biased.
Btw. I'm not saying this is the case (like I once did a long time ago ... sorry HTC).
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Toad, all valid points, but here's what I think...
1. AH is an American game.
2. It's focus is American.
3. It's made by Americans.
4. It's loved and played mostly by Americans (and us Canucks too). :)
5. AH has support staff and has a great track record of soliciting customer input on American aircraft defects.
HiTech
I'm a canuck, so I can see both side of the issue here. I love AH and have been flying it since Beta.
What a lot of Luffwaffe fanatics find that they are not being taken seriously when they post needed fixes for LW aircraft. When they do, they get called luftwabbles and luftwhiners. They end up feeling their issues are then not taken seriously. Plus, no one from HTC has ever addressed any LW issue in recent memory. Sure, the Stuka and the 163 are sweet. But issues remain.
I donno HT. Having worked with gaming communities myself for over six years, this may be a classic case of the vocal minority headaches. A lot of LW fans are pissed off. Some have quit.
But it's your company and your game. You of all know how to deal with these issues. I'm glad you got involved in this discussion.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Today the internet for most people has become just another way to interact with others, I see no reason why that should exclude any positive or negative outcomes of communication - unless you are saying personally no intaraction between people in your life gets you upset or hostile at times. The only diffrence I see is overall in internet ibntearaction the factor of annonimity and distance, but one can argue that our familiarty here reduces that. I do wonder though if for example Mandoble acts and talks extremly like this in real life or if Rude jumps on his desk shouting at work and humiliates his coworkers.
The only thing I see is you trying to control how people interact here, by defining what is acceptable......that's not your responsibility, HTC Staff, mainly in the form of Skuzzy do that.
And whitewash it with "for the betterment of the community" all you want....it still stacks up that you don't like how you perceive you are addressed here, and you what to control and define that through Cod knows how many posts in this thread alone.
And that is bunk.....just like your attack on BUG in your own Panzer thread. If your own rules were to be applied in that instance, you shouldn't be allowed to post you own damn words.
Cobra
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
And Toad I find it funny how you think what were saying are "baseless accusations" how exactly do you know what somebodys experience here is when they are being made fun of and harrased like this- especially when you and your friends are often the attackers?
undeniable proof met with derision or nothing at all.
its the htc way
What would YOU call that one Grun? I see you didn't address my last repost of your question.
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Originally posted by Tumor
Hey I guess if you were King your ~opinion~ could be mandated as fact eh?
Originally posted by Tumor
"Same old hands" and "pig pile" stand.
And you're talking about "broad strokes"? LOL.
No, I actually asked so that I could better understand your definition of "sucking up". Why don't you give me an example or two?
I don't care who's pro- or anti- HTC... as long as they can express themselves without baseless accusations that can damage the reputation of the game.
undeniable proof met with derision or nothing at all.
its the htc way
It's stuff like that that raises my eyebrows. HTC doesn't deserve that in the least.
I have no problem with constructive criticism; it's good for the game.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Conspiracy indicates that there has to be a plan, a plot involving others, to be deliberately biased.
That's not true at all, so long as they believe there is a group of people that are out to get them solely because they are LW then that is a conspiracy.
It's been used before by LW fans saying that either the allied players are working against them and/or HTC is.
That's a conspiracy, perhaps you shouldn't lecture me on the language I speak if I understand it better?
-SW
ps: Conspiracy: Definition 4: any concurrence in action; combination in brining about a given result.
Don't need a plan to accomplish the above, nor to believe it's being done to you.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Conspiracy indicates that there has to be a plan, a plot involving others, to be deliberately biased.
Btw. I'm not saying this is the case (like I once did a long time ago ... sorry HTC).
Bud. At least you apologized!
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301!!
BAN BATDOG!
But Keep CHICKEN POT PIE!!
Cobra
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Originally posted by Mister Fork
They end up feeling their issues are then not taken seriously. Plus, no one from HTC has ever addressed any LW issue in recent memory. Sure, the Stuka and the 163 are sweet. But issues remain.
From Aircraft & Vehicles:
Hitech:
...if you are refering to roll rate, we did a test of the D9 just before release 1.11 it was correct, but a chart some one posted once did not have the ah correct roll rate values...
You may perceive that these things are "not taken seriously" but that perception might.. and often IS... wrong.
Forgive me Pongo, but I'm "stealing" this since you didn't copyright it and it's the truth:
Pongo:
Look how many German Planes are in this game. Look at the tanks and anti aircraft choices. Look what is the best plane in the game..And the best tank.
Just cause Ospreys FW190 aces of the western front says that a 152 beat a Tempest doenst make it so.
Only the LW in this game gets a plane that was in effect an operational prototype. If the allied contemporaries of the 152 where in here we would never hear the end of it.
One of us has to write a one pager on how much German representation there is in this game and how time after time perfomance complaints about German planes have been debunked or at least put in doubt. Way to much energy is spent on that crap.
Sure enough. The Il2 boards are allready dealing with exactly the same issue. And no its not pony fans(yet) its FW fans. Supprise.
The get exaclty the same response there. Or worse.
IMO, the Japanese and Russian contingents have far more "ammo" to use if they were to take the same attitudes that the German fans have. They certainly haven't gotten very much equipment as yet and certainly not their best stuff and absolutely certainly not their "prototype" stuff. Yet you just don't see it? Why is that?
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Originally posted by Toad
And you're talking about "broad strokes"? LOL.
No, I actually asked so that I could better understand your definition of "sucking up". Why don't you give me an example or two?
I don't care who's pro- or anti- HTC... as long as they can express themselves without baseless accusations that can damage the reputation of the game.
It's stuff like that that raises my eyebrows. HTC doesn't deserve that in the least.
I have no problem with constructive criticism; it's good for the game.
Yes Toad, "Same old Hands" and "Pig Pile" are a broad stroke, as they were intended to be, there's plenty of those that fit the description. Notice I did not use the word "anyone"... again, nice try at word Olympics Toad, your a pro but you'll have to do better. So what shall we do now? Play the "Prove it with a thread" routine or have Google wars? Why don't you tell ME what the definition of someone sucking-up is? Got your pig-pilers ready?
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Talk about word olympics... you da man!
You're the one that made the sucking up accusation. Spell it out.
Unless you're just dancing to the music and looking at your reflection in the mirror.
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Originally posted by Animal
BatDog has already created two of the most important threads in this BBS.
Comedy gold.
I completely agree. I still think this thread (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5723&highlight=pudding) is still his best though.
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its amazing what an idiv of limited intel like myself can manage. My pudding post was just a random thought during lunch. This was a random thought while drinking... or maybe thinking of sex..or something. Beats me.. I dont remember really.
Never give a rodent a brain. Wings are okay but ...just read the above carnage to see what happens.
Or maybe thats never give a monkey a granade cause he'll start a war?
Baaa
xBAT/FatBat
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All I know was that I have never laughed so hard in my life. It was so completely random... so entirely stupid... so perfectly tasteless that it has to go down as one of the truly all-time great posts on this board. Plus, it was very short and not forced.
Positively brilliant!
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
That's not true at all, so long as they believe there is a group of people that are out to get them solely because they are LW then that is a conspiracy.
It's been used before by LW fans saying that either the allied players are working against them and/or HTC is.
That's a conspiracy, perhaps you shouldn't lecture me on the language I speak if I understand it better?
-SW
ps: Conspiracy: Definition 4: any concurrence in action; combination in brining about a given result.
Don't need a plan to accomplish the above, nor to believe it's being done to you.
SW, You assessment is valid, however if someone just says "HTC is biased toward " it's not an accusation of conspiracy, just of bias.
Toad, if everyone would just apologize whenever they realized they said something stupid, we would see a lot less of this.
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You are correct, however, when someone implies that there is favoritism towards one side (allied) and downgrading of another side (LW) then it would be a conspiracy to give one group better equipment and another group shoddy equipment.
-SW
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
You are correct, however, when someone implies that there is favoritism towards one side (allied) and downgrading of another side (LW) then it would be a conspiracy to give one group better equipment and another group shoddy equipment.
-SW
If the accused is conscious of the favoritism and it's deliberate, we agree.
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Well.. we won't agree then, but that's fine.
S! LuftWannabes, and Allied Opportunists alike. I think all that can be said about this matter has been said in this thread, and I am finished.
See you fellers in the MA, CT or Il2.
-SW
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Well rude my position is that most people here whine a lot, and that pretty much the only group singled out categorically for whining and attacked syatematically for it regardless if its a genuine whine are the "luftwhiners". Just go look at lazs current GV thread, sure some people disagree with him but none of it reaches the vitriol spewed out if for example a LW guy complained that GV 50cals are overdone or why arent his acts condeming every USN type in AH as a whiner.
And Toad I find it funny how you think what were saying are "baseless accusations" how exactly do you know what somebodys experience here is when they are being made fun of and harrased like this- especially when you and your friends are often the attackers?
Its also interesting that the playground analogy comes up again...
Sorry Grun....as Pongo so eloquently pointed out...I'm a bully...I pick on anyone who does not share my viewpoint on life...not just LW, but anyone who is helpless or weak.
You should probably just let this go...it's one of those no win deals. Just a suggestion.
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Hehe SW, I think we're just talking about different sides of the same coin.
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Originally posted by Bluedog
My point here is that although most here would instantly recognise me as a Luftweenie, no one has ever called me a Luftwhiner....the reason?.....I dont whine.
So saying that all LW fans cop it rough here is plain roadkill, the only ones who cop a hard time are those who bring it on themselves by their behaviour......or lack of.
Blue
We just don't consider you worth the effort Bluedog ;)
j/k
You're post hit the nail on the head: LW is fine but not Luftwhine.
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Originally posted by Mathman
All I know was that I have never laughed so hard in my life. It was so completely random... so entirely stupid... so perfectly tasteless that it has to go down as one of the truly all-time great posts on this board. Plus, it was very short and not forced.
Positively brilliant!
Yea... I cant seem to reach that same level of brain activity lately. I need to bash myself over the head w/a hammer or something I think.
Ever sense I went off the meds I can see the whole world clearly...
and it SUCKS.
FatBat
xBAT
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Originally posted by Rude
Sorry Grun....as Pongo so eloquently pointed out...I'm a bully...I pick on anyone who does not share my viewpoint on life...not just LW, but anyone who is helpless or weak.
You should probably just let this go...it's one of those no win deals. Just a suggestion.
Does that mean I won?
wooo hooo
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Originally posted by Toad
Talk about word olympics... you da man!
You're the one that made the sucking up accusation. Spell it out.
Unless you're just dancing to the music and looking at your reflection in the mirror.
Ok Toad... at what point did you feel the need to defend my accusing you of being a suck-up? Matter of fact, when did I accuse you of being a suck-up? rofl
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I have an excellent idea for ridding ourselves of the "luftwhiners". Offer HT a case of single malt scotch in exchange for removing ALL Luftwobble planes from the game. Make em all fly jugs :)
matchstrike
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Originally posted by Tumor
Threads like these make the bbs interesting. The best part is watching the same old hands line up to suck-up to HiTech again and again while drooling at the opportunity of a pig-pile. Reminds me of elementary playground activity lol.
I don't feel a need. But apparently you feel the need to accuse someone. I'm certainly willing to discuss it with you but it's pretty obvious that you don't want to do that.
"Old hands" and "pig piles" seem to figure prominently in your post; like a lot of playground name calling. :D
There's lots of "old hands" around. On both sides of this. As for "pig piles", I've got one account, the same one I've always had. Never had to change my BBS persona; never will. So, when I post, it's my view. There's no orchestrated anything. Just a bunch of people posting their own views on both sides. If there's more pro-HTC than anti-HTC, I'm not suprised.
I'm a pro-HTC supporter. No doubt about it. I'll repeat myself for your benefit:
IMO
1. AH is, to date, the best MMOG featuring WW2 aircraft and ACM.
2. AH has, to date, the best servers and netcoding of any WW2 ACM MMOG.
3. AH is an extremely good value at 50 cents a day.
4. AH is continually and routinely updated. Improvements never cease.
5. AH has an extremely good support staff and has a great track record of soliciting customer input.
Basically, what's to complain about? A few knots of error on a particlular FM's top speed? A problem with the armor model? IMO, that's all minor stuff that'll they'll take care of eventually if necessary.
The impatient ones that just have to have it now or that think this stuff is a game killer... we'll they're certainly entitled to their opinion and to post about it. As I said, however, what raises my eyebrows is the accusations of deliberate bias which is simply BS.
Great game, great company, great service. If there are some to blind too see that, that would be their problem.
That's my position.
For those that don't agree, good on ya. Just don't expect a "no rebuttal" policy from everyone else.
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Originally posted by EDO43
I have an excellent idea for ridding ourselves of the "luftwhiners". Offer HT a case of single malt scotch in exchange for removing ALL Luftwobble planes from the game. Make em all fly jugs :)
matchstrike
Baaa...EDO you tard. I just started flying the 109's and here go busten on me. I'm gonna start a new thread for just you. The way I'm going it outta be a hit.
J/K of course bro. :)
Bat w/the split ID FatBat/xBAT
P.S. I would like to say that the in-famous Animal contibuted to my over use of the word tard and tardlet. Its sounds better though w/that PR accent I must admit.
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Originally posted by Toad
I don't feel a need. But apparently you feel the need to accuse someone. I'm certainly willing to discuss it with you but it's pretty obvious that you don't want to do that.
"Old hands" and "pig piles" seem to figure prominently in your post; like a lot of playground name calling. :D
There's lots of "old hands" around. On both sides of this. As for "pig piles", I've got one account, the same one I've always had. Never had to change my BBS persona; never will. So, when I post, it's my view. There's no orchestrated anything. Just a bunch of people posting their own views on both sides. If there's more pro-HTC than anti-HTC, I'm not suprised.
I'm a pro-HTC supporter. No doubt about it. I'll repeat myself for your benefit:
IMO
1. AH is, to date, the best MMOG featuring WW2 aircraft and ACM.
2. AH has, to date, the best servers and netcoding of any WW2 ACM MMOG.
3. AH is an extremely good value at 50 cents a day.
4. AH is continually and routinely updated. Improvements never cease.
5. AH has an extremely good support staff and has a great track record of soliciting customer input.
Basically, what's to complain about? A few knots of error on a particlular FM's top speed? A problem with the armor model? IMO, that's all minor stuff that'll they'll take care of eventually if necessary.
The impatient ones that just have to have it now or that think this stuff is a game killer... we'll they're certainly entitled to their opinion and to post about it. As I said, however, what raises my eyebrows is the accusations of deliberate bias which is simply BS.
Great game, great company, great service. If there are some to blind too see that, that would be their problem.
That's my position.
For those that don't agree, good on ya. Just don't expect a "no rebuttal" policy from everyone else.
So in short... your opinion should be considered fact by everyone involved and belittling anyone who disagree's with HTC (or any number of "HTC supporters") is perfectly acceptable if not encouraged? (not necessarily singling you out here Toad, never was lol).
Should we perhaps request HTC appoint a board of community players to review all "complaints" prior to publication on this BBS and have them deemed appropriate first by the "all knowing" or would that present the appearance of a "good'ole boy network"? Or, should we leave the belittling up to HTC staff? Would that good for business or do certain "old-hands" (players who've been around a long time) take care of it for them, inevitably followed by the "pig-piling-suck-ups" who's input while entertaining at first generally degrade any conversation into a flame war, which is thier only intent to begin with.
Hey, I'm happy with the Luftwaffe aircraft here... doesn't mean many of the posts (suggestions, complaints... whines to some of you) from "Luftwhiner's" are or are not valid. Some are B.S., some are complete crap.... most whether warranted or not, are attacked in an inapropriate an incidious manner. Whether I agree with them or HTC is not the point.
Whats to complain about? Not much, but it's there. Is that a good reason to attack those who do complain (or post a suggestion etc etc)? Or... is it just fun?
Good enough for ya Toad?
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Originally posted by Pongo
Does that mean I won?
wooo hooo
If it makes ya happy, sure.:)
Unlike some, I have difficulty understanding and after twelve years of reading or hearing it, anyone who whines and complains.
I've said it many times and I'll say it again....it's not the topic of concern but rather the delivery that grows old. When it's offered with malice or contempt, adding some accusation along with a dose of conspiracy, it does nothing for any of us or the sim for that matter.
For me and those who I know well in the sim, the fun to be had is in the participation in the sim, not in the excruciating details of it. If the pony flew like a C-47, I wouldn't play...I'de just go find something else to amuse myself. From my point of view, it's close enough and done well enough to hold my attention and allow for my $15.00/month worth of fun.
Ya see, you won't find me whinin about anything on the bbs...I prefer the phone...trust me, HT has laughed at me more than once:)
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You're making assumptions here and speaking for me?
My opinion is my opinion as I clearly stated.
If I choose to disagree with people who are making baseless accusations I will most certainly voice my opinion. If they find it belittling, that would be in their reading of it.
The BBS itself serves as a "board of community" players. Anyone is free to post any thought they like here. It's extremely reasonable to expect that some will disagree and will engage them. If that's too tough... well, tough. If it results in your nightmare, a "pig pile" that'd be because a LOT of folks disagree.
As I mentioned, I have little concern over those who post in a reasonable manner. The ones with the "htc is deliberately biased" agenda will draw a reaction.
All in all, Rude said it very well above.
Rude:
I've said it many times and I'll say it again....it's not the topic of concern but rather the delivery that grows old. When it's offered with malice or contempt, adding some accusation along with a dose of conspiracy, it does nothing for any of us or the sim for that matter.
There it is; that's where I'm at.
Good enough for you Tumor?
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Well I diverted my money to another company about year ago and I'm much happier person now, maybe some others should do the same :)
Ex-Jg2, Ex-Gefechtsverband Kuhlmey
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The little red question mark was put there just to keep you from making that first statement Toad lol.
Once again I'll point out that I was never singling you out Toad... or anyone else, but then you were real quick to get defensive.
Your absolutely right about Rude, the guy who posts "whine awards" in a ridiculing manner based on ...??? who's opinion? Oh but wait, it's all supposed to be done in fun... as long as certain folks say it is so. Nothing "some people" ever post is done in an incidious way....correct? I thought it was all in the delivery. Maybe it's all in the deliverer eh?
When certain people do the same thing, exactly the same thing (post whatever suits them for no other reason than to generate ill will) and do nothing but add fuel to the fire, it doesn't matter to me whether your an HTC support system or otherwise.... your acting like a snot nosed child on a playground. Generally speaking I haven't seen you doing that, at least you require one to read between the lines... I could be wrong.
Rich stuff here.
Sorry if I offended ya Toad, nothing was meant to be inflammatory throughout... but it's not on me how you interprete anything posted, right?
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Well, one of my many faults is that I try to explain myself to folks that, as it turns out, are really not interested in discussion.
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Originally posted by Tumor
Your absolutely right about Rude, the guy who posts "whine awards" in a ridiculing manner based on ...??? who's opinion? Oh but wait, it's all supposed to be done in fun...
When I've been called a whiner in life outside this board I'm quick to do a self check and either apologize or grin and bear it depending on the situation. Not saying it's a regular occurence but has happened a few times in my life. While I may find it irritating at the moment I appreciate it soon afterwards as I really don't want to be thought of, whether accurately or not, as a whiner. Guess I shouldn't expect everyone to feel the same way.
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Ya know Tumor...I think it just bothers you that I'm a happy guy.
:p
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Here we go hahahahhaa
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Originally posted by Toad
Well, one of my many faults is that I try to explain myself to folks that, as it turns out, are really not interested in discussion.
Exactly Toad. If I thought for a moment you didn't understand, I'd have taken the time to do so. Fact is, I'm really not interested in explaining myself to someone who's obviously already anwered his own question.
By the way... exactly how in depth do I need to explain myself anyway?
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Christ, this thread needs to end.......................... ..............:confused:
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What I understand is that you really have nothing to say. :D
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Look no one really cares this much about it all surely?
lets talk about something else more important like why rude feels the need to fly AH while wearing womens clothing?
;)
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Originally posted by hazed-
Look no one really cares this much about it all surely?
lets talk about something else more important like why rude feels the need to fly AH while wearing womens clothing?
;)
You stand corrected sir...I have always flown nekkid!
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Originally posted by Rude
You stand corrected sir...I have always flown nekkid!
Okay...we are definately NOT having a group hug now
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Wow ! Impressive nerds here :)
What were you doing posting in the BBS the 12-31-2002 after 10PM ?
(for your information I was eating yet another piece of Bambi's mom at this time :D)
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was watching Raiders of the lost ark last nite. When the part with the Nazis guys talkin to the guy who wears a patch & has the trained monkey workin for him. The Nazis walk up & greet "sick hail" , the guy with the patch responds, then the monkey. It somehow reminded me of this thread.:D
Anton
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This thred is getting longer than the War.
Charon
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How about locking this one HTC? Seems to degraded to the level where the only posters are those that are trying to get the "I posted here" bumperstickers.
AKDejaVu
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AirScrew was here. Class of 78
Ok, Deja, where's my bumper sticker?
Man, I feel so icky now.....
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hblair wuz here
class of '88
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We need Classy Man and that rialbh guy to show up now :)
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Wlfgng '03
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my new nose art
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:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
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LOL AKIron that is good