Pyro....buff gun facts...?

[humble]

would clarify a couple things for me.....

1) how is buff gun "targeting" done. I've always been under the impression that all guns are slaved to the one being manned and fire if they have ammo and line of sight. I'm assuming that all guns in effect "converge" on the target...is this an incorrect assumption?

2) I recall numerous threads where the increased hitting power of buff guns has been discussed. My understanding is that this was done to help balance gameplay and allow reasonable survivability. Am I incorrect in stating that the buff guns have a damage multiplier?

thanks...

[Karnak]

The guns from the formation converge at D500.

The guns from each single bomber, IIRC, fire parallel to each other and do not converge.  They may have a fixed convergence point of something like D1000, but the certainly do not have a convergence that focuses on whatever range the fighter being shot at happens to be at a given moment.


The guns are detailed here:

Originally posted by eskimo2:
The 50 cal. Buff Gun Laser Myth, Part 2: Ballistics and Energy

In a parked M-16:
How easily could you kill a parked P-51 at 760 yards?
How easily could you kill a parked B-17 at 1320 yards?

What does this have to do with buff gun performance?
The 2 examples above illustrate the real-world energy difference between a B-17 exchanging fire with a P-51 at 1000 yards (6:00 chasing at 250 mph).

Why the difference? Get a A6M up to 300 mph, auto-pilot on and kill the engine. Watch the airspeed indicator needle drop like mad the instant you kill the engine. Now do the same thing at 200 mph. The needle still drops sharply, but not as fast (300 - 250 = 5 sec., 200 - 150 - 7 sec.). Faster moving objects have more air drag than slower moving ones, a lot more (drag is a function of the square of the speed, if I recall).

Imagine: A P-51 chasing a B-17 at 1000 yards, both planes are exchanging fire and are traveling at 250 mph.

The B-17 tail gun round:
When a 50 cal. bullet leaves the muzzle of the tail gun in a B-17, it actually has a slower airspeed than a 50 cal. bullet fired from a fixed ground fired gun (about 367 fps slower if the buff is flying at 250 mph). This means that it will lose speed and energy at a slower rate than the ground fired gun (even though it has less speed and energy as soon as it leaves the muzzle). It's target (the P-51), is actually moving toward the point in space from which the 50 cal. bullet was fired, so this round has less than 1000 yards to travel before colliding with the P-51. When it collides with the P-51, it instantly gains 367 fps to its speed and energy state (the speed of the P-51).

The Mustang round:
When a 50 cal. bullet leaves the muzzle of one of the P-51's guns, it is actually going faster than a 50 cal. bullet fired from a fixed ground fired gun (about 367 fps faster when the stang is flying at 250 mph). This means that it will lose speed and energy at a faster rate than the ground fired gun (because is has more speed and energy as soon as it leaves the muzzle). It's target (the B-17), is actually moving away from the point in space from which the 50 cal. bullet was fired, so this round has more than 1000 yards to travel before colliding with the B-17. When it collides with the B-17, it instantly loses 367 fps from its speed and energy state (the speed of the B-17).

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The actual math:
250 mph is equal to 367 fps (the speed of the planes).
A 50 cal. round weighs 708 gr. and is moving 2845 fps, right out of the muzzle.
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.700
Drag Function: G1

I used the following link to crunch the numbers:
http://internet.cybermesa.com/~jbm/.../traj/traj.html

The B-17 tail gun round:
Leaves the tail gun at 2478 fps (airspeed). 2845 fps (50 cal. muzzle velocity) - 367 fps (aircraft speed) = 2478 fps (true airspeed of the 50 cal. round)
The round travels 840 yards (before colliding with the P-51) in 1.284 sec and has a final velocity of 1558 fps.
1558 fps (the speed of the round just before impact) + 367 fps (the speed of the P-51) = 1925 fps (the true impact speed of the round). A 708 gr. round traveling at 1925 fps has 5800 foot pounds of energy.

The Mustang round:
Leaves the Mustang's gun at 3112 fps (airspeed). 2845 fps (50 cal. muzzle velocity) + 367 fps (aircraft speed) = 3212 fps (true airspeed of the 50 cal. round)
The round travels 1180 yards (before colliding with the B-17) in 1.497 sec and has a final velocity of 1750 fps.
1750 fps (the speed of the round just before impact) - 367 fps (the speed of the B-17) = 1383 fps (the true impact speed of the round). A 708 gr. round traveling at 1383 fps has 3010 foot pounds of energy.

So there you have it.
In the B-17 / P-51 chase example, the rounds hitting the B-17 have 3010 ft.# of E. and the rounds hitting the P-51 have 5800 ft.# of E.
By the way, a 50 cal. round fired from a fixed point (like a parked M-16) has 5800 ft# of E. at 760 yards. It drops down to 3010 ft.# of E. at 1320 yards.
That's why bombers' guns seem so powerful at longer ranges.

Back to my original statement:
In a parked M-16:
How easily could you kill a parked P-51 at 760 yards?
How easily could you kill a parked B-17 at 1320 yards?

The greater the distance between the buff and the fighter, the more exaggerated this effect becomes. At close ranges, however, the difference between the two practically go away.

To kill buffs with a fighter, you must get in close, WITHOUT GIVING THE BUFF GUNNER A GOOD SHOT AT YOU, before you have the firepower advantage.
There are many effective ways of doing this, but that is a whole new topic.

eskimo

[humble]

Gee....

I didnt know you were Pyro or HT or Skuzzy....if I wanted your opinion I'd of posted in the other thread. I respect your right to your opinion and differing view on weather or not low level suicide buffs are "OK" or not.

Now I thought getting clarification on how buff guns work in the game is a good idea. If you have anything in the manual or FAQ that clearly answers my question great....

While I certainly respect eskimo's various tests on all facets of the game I hope HT or Pyro will take a moment and clarify things for me....

Thanks

[Karnak]

Hopefuly so.

FWIW, the D500 formation convergence was a recent change (it seems the guns from a single bomber also converge at D500):

Originally posted by Pyro:
Patch 8 Changes
======================

Radar circles now turn red if the radar is destroyed.

Planes can now operate WEP without RPM having to be maxed.

Fixed a bug that was causing planes not to collide with other planes correctly.

Fixed a bug that was causing a corrupted display in the hangar list.

Bomber and bomber formation guns now converge at 500 yards instead of 1000.

Base icons should now flash or not flash correctly when you first enter the arena.

Fixed a bug that was causing base radar to still function when destroyed.

Added a new country balancer that disables available planes based on country number
imbalances and plane ENY values. NOTE: Values for this system may change as the
system is optimized.

You now get a message box on login when your account is out of balance.

Adjusted combat trim settings on the P-51D and P-51B.

Fixed a bug that caused the Ju 88 to lose power at 30k.

Made changes to the armor penetration model. Small caliber weapons (20mm and below)
have less penetration. Fixed a problem with HE munitions that was giving them too
much armor penetration from proximity hits.

[ghostdancer]

If you don't care about anybody's opinion except Pyro and HiTech's and want a prompt answer then emailing them would be quicker.

As for part 2 of your question .. yes the arena settings do have controls for modifying the lethality of the guns for AA, bomber, fighter, etc. (have to double check to see if fighter and bomber settings are seperate or one control for both .. AA and planes definetly seperate lethality settings) SEA often we CMs reduce the AA lethality for events.

Forgive me for answering that bit even though I am not Pyro or HiTech.

But you might want to ask what the lethality settings for the MA are set too.

[Furball]

Originally posted by Karnak
Hopefuly so.

FWIW, the D500 formation convergence was a recent change (it seems the guns from a single bomber also conveger at D500):

Originally posted by humble
Gee....

I didnt know you were Pyro or HT or Skuzzy....if I wanted your opinion I'd of posted in the other thread.

Karnak, it appears you are wasting your breath.  He cannot hear us mere heathens, he is above us, and waiting for the words from the almighty - what we might say is irrelevant

[hitech]

1. Pre formations there wasn't any convergance all guns shot in parralel. With formation each bomber shoots at a point 500 yards behind the bomber you are gunning from. With each gun on a single bomber shooting in parrelel to the other.


2. Guns are the same as any other of the same type.


I.E. Both your claims are incorect.


HiTech

[humble]

So if I'm fring at a plane (pony for ex) at ~800 from the tail position in my buff. Will assume he's coing in from my high 2...

I'd have 4 tail (assuming no vis from tail away from con) 6 top turret and possibly 1 or two others...but will say I have 10 x .50 firing and I start to hit...arent all 10 guns slaved to my aim?? Basically I'd assume that the "roving aim point" sets convergence at 500 out....

So if I see hit flashes on the pony at ~800 are just my tail guns hitting or are all the guns hitting?

[humble]

Originally posted by hitech
1. Pre formations there wasn't any convergance all guns shot in parralel. With formation each bomber shoots at a point 500 yards behind the bomber you are gunning from. With each gun on a single bomber shooting in parrelel to the other.


2. Guns are the same as any other of the same type.


I.E. Both your claims are incorect.


HiTech

Thanks.....

So if I "hit" with my tailgun at ~800 the guns from my own plane miss (except for tail of course) and guns from other buffs are converging ~300 in front of target.

Is that correct?

[Furious]

If I remember correclty, the buff guns are (or were) not more powerful per hit, but they did have a longer ranger than other 50's to prevent a net lag situation where a fast closing enemy would be in firing range on his FE while the buff gunner would still see the enemy outside of his firing range.

[jpeg]

HiTech recently posted (yet again) that the guns are the same


http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=134769

Originally posted by Furious
If I remember correclty, the buff guns are (or were) not more powerful per hit, but they did have a longer ranger than other 50's to prevent a net lag situation where a fast closing enemy would be in firing range on his FE while the buff gunner would still see the enemy outside of his firing range.