Author Topic: America's Top Ace was a HO'er?! (Read 1551 times)

2stony · « **Reply #45 on:** March 09, 2005, 04:18:17 PM »

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Yeah but is that any worse than the credit some received for aircraft on the ground?

The AAF basically told the pilots that they would get credit for ground kills to get them "down on the deck" to destroy them. When the war was over, they took away credit for those ground kills.

StarOfAfrica2 · « **Reply #46 on:** March 09, 2005, 04:53:43 PM »

Absolutely not true. Pilots on strafing missions received credit for each and every a/c they destroyed ON THE GROUND in a separate category from air kills. They got credit for trains destroyed, vehicles, etc. also. Saying they counted grounded a/c as air to air kills or that they never got credit for them at all is just an out and out uneducated statement.

By the same token, there had to be proof of kills or anything "destroyed". If it wasnt witnessed, or on camera, it probably didnt get credited (unless in a memoir or diary of the pilot).

For example, here is Herschel Green's TOTAL score:

18 Air (Destroyed)

10 Ground (Destroyed)

StarOfAfrica2 · « **Reply #47 on:** March 09, 2005, 05:06:27 PM »

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Originally posted by 2stony
I believe 6 of Herky Green's victories in the P-47 were Ju-52s. Not exactly the type of plane that's going to put up any fight. I've also seen a lot of aces get credit for unarmed aircraft like Storchs, training aircraft, etc.

Yeah? First off, it was 4 Ju-52's escorted by fighters, 1 of which he also shot down that day, and a bomber also.

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During a mission to Villaorba, Capt. Green, CO of the 317th FS destroyed 6 E/A. 4 Ju-52 Transports, in one pass, a Bf 109 fighter in a tree- top chase and a Do-217 bomber. Green was flying Capt. Buzz Hearns' P-47 instead of his assigned Jug that was in for maintenance. Green was unaware that Hearns A/C was loaded with 800 rounds per gun versus the usual Group practice of 400 rounds - Capt. Green broke off any further engagement when he began to see "tracer" fire from his guns which was a Group signal for "down to 50 rounds per gun" or his tally for the mission may have been even higher. Green and his flight were credited with 15 E/A destroyed and the 325th FG total was 38 destroyed and 6 damaged E/A for the Jan. 30, 1944 mission.

Maybe before you go belittling the man's accomplishments, you should not only consider the whole story, but find out what that story actually was. Not every fighter pilot racked up 300 kills yanno. Besides that, what exactly do you think was the main objective of fighter pilots? They didnt just take off and go furball for the hell of it. And except for a few instances to the contrary during the BoB, fighters didnt usually fly missions JUST to fight other fighters. They were usually either there as escorts for bombers and/or transports, or to shoot down those same bombers and/or transports (which is why they needed the escorts in the first place). Since the bombers and transports were his OBJECTIVE, sounds like he was doing his job to me. I suppose in the same situation, you would have ignored the transports and gone off to fight the 109s?

I'd say the

is better applied to your post and not a man who risked his life to shoot down those wimpy Ju-52's and helped end the war.

2stony · « **Reply #48 on:** March 09, 2005, 05:27:55 PM »

Star, no ground kills were counted towards "ace" status. Yes, they did get credit for them, but not really. I have read where they said they'd give them credit towards air kills to get them to go down on the carpet more often. They did take credit towards air kills away from them afterwards. Sorry you misunderstood me. Look in the American Fighter Aces album and you'll see that no ace was given credit towards their status with any ground kills.

Elfie · « **Reply #49 on:** March 09, 2005, 05:32:32 PM »

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Originally posted by 2stony
I believe 6 of Herky Green's victories in the P-47 were Ju-52s. Not exactly the type of plane that's going to put up any fight. I've also seen a lot of aces get credit for unarmed aircraft like Storchs, training aircraft, etc.

In war a kill is a kill, doesnt matter if it's an unarmed transport, or a front line fighter. Each plane made it's own contribution to the war effort.

2stony · « **Reply #50 on:** March 09, 2005, 05:42:19 PM »

Originally posted by Star:

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Maybe before you go belittling the man's accomplishments

I'm not belittling Herkey's accomplishments by any means, I just made notice of these "easy" kills. Do you consider shooting down a goon an easy kill?
By the way, I was a personal guest of Herkey's at the 325th FG reunion in Seattle in the mid-90s and spoke at their banquet, so I've spoken to him at length. I've also talked to scores of fighter aces, and when they talk about their encounters with defenseless planes, you can see it in their eyes and hear it in their voice that these kills weren't much to talk about.
How many aces have you personally talked to Star? I don't care what you read in books because when you talk to the person that actually did it, it sounds nothing like what you read on paper. I've had dinner with Jerry Collingsworth, Mike Russo and Robert Rankin. I've had lunch with several more. Listen to their stories first hand and then compare it to what you read.

ATA · « **Reply #51 on:** March 09, 2005, 06:47:23 PM »

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Originally posted by 2stony
Originally posted by ATA:

The P-51s did not attack Kozhedub first, he attacked them. Only after shooting down the second one did he realize they were U.S. planes. He was never given credit for them.

No offence,give me the info(link maybe) on this one and few others please.
And how dumb the BEST pilot of Red Army gotta be to confuse LW plane with USAAF.USAAF pilots mistakenly attaked Red air force few times,as far as i remember there was P38's vs yak 9's also.
Best regards
Sukov

2stony · « **Reply #52 on:** March 09, 2005, 06:56:27 PM »

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give me the info

It's in Osprey's "Aircraft of the Aces", Lagg, La-5 & La-7 aces. He was also told to keep it quiet that he had shot down U.S. planes. I have the book at home(I'm at work)and I'll look it up again and try and remember to quote it for you.

ATA · « **Reply #53 on:** March 09, 2005, 06:57:22 PM »

Thank you sir

StarOfAfrica2 · « **Reply #54 on:** March 09, 2005, 07:47:04 PM »

Read your post with an objective eye, and pretend for one second you dont know what you know, and never talked to who you've talked to. See if it doesnt sound the same way to you. If you still feel I'm out of line, email me privately. I'm not looking to start a flame war here.

I deleted the rest of my post for that very reason. Forget it. Herschel cant take offense at this point. Not even sure he would anyway. Besides, from what I can see of your posts thus far you really dont care about anyone's opinion but your own, so I doubt it's worth it.

Oh, and your list is very impressive. Really. I can even say I'm envious that you have had the chance to sit and talk to some of those guys. I really dont see how who we know or dont know has any bearing though.
Thanks!

Stony · « **Reply #55 on:** March 09, 2005, 08:24:56 PM »

I never said it meant nothing, so don't put words in my mouth or try and "read my mind". As for ground kills, they were probably more dangerous than dogfights. As for the alleged "my life is more important than yours", I was just providing information that might give you insight to what type of information I've acquired over the years as opposed to most people. Just take the information for what it is and don't take it so personally in Herkey's(or anyone elses)behalf.
Aces for the most part are usually pretty humble people, but you can still see the "cockiness" surface once in a while that they had in their youth. You can also see that gleam in their eye when they start talking about their combats like it was just yesterday. If you'd like, the American Fighter Aces reunion is in St. Louis in September and I could arrange for you to meet some of them.
I'm sorry if I came across wrong.

StarOfAfrica2 · « **Reply #56 on:** March 09, 2005, 08:30:10 PM »

If there is any way I can manage to be home in September I'll take you up on it.

Guess I edited the post too late lol.

Stony · « **Reply #57 on:** March 09, 2005, 08:36:01 PM »

Here you go ATA:from Osprey Aircraft of the Aces, LaGG & Lavochkin Aces of World War 2.

"There were two more kiils scored by the leading ace which the Soviets never credited, and which Kozhedub was more than happy to forget. In April 1945 he saw an American B-17 being attacked by a pair of German fighters. Coming to the bomber's rescue, he fired a burst between the enemy machines and their intended prey, causing the Germans to break off their attack and dive away. Before Kozhedub could pursue them, he spotted an approaching formation of unfamiliar fighters. The leader of the group opened fire on Kozhedub at long range, and the Russian ace in turn pulled up sharply behind the last machine in the formation and shot it down in flames - the fighter fell among Soviet troops on the ground. Pulling up in a half loop, Kozhedub then fired another burst into the leader of the formation, who was also shot down. It was at this point that he saw the blue and white stars on the wings and fuselage of his 'enemy'. Kozhedub returned to base extremely upset, certain that his actions would result in a major row with the allies. Fortunately, one of the American pilots managed to bail out, and when he was asked who shot him down, he replied 'a Focke-Wulf with a red nose'. Col Churikov gave Kozhedub the gun camera film confirming his two Mustang kills, along with the admonition, 'Keep this to yourself - show no one'."

So you were right ATA, the Americans did fire first.

ATA · « **Reply #58 on:** March 09, 2005, 09:52:58 PM »

Thanks Stony

2stony · « **Reply #59 on:** March 10, 2005, 10:30:11 AM »

You're welcome ATA. Consider reading Osprey's "Aircraft of the Aces" books. There's a lot of good reading.

No problem Star. If you do manage to make the reunion, you will have a great time. The aces are really a great bunch of guys and a lot of them will recite their war time experiences with enthusiasm. One of my fondest memories is when Jerry Collingsworth was telling me the difference between the Spit V and the Spit IX. When in the Spit V he was always looking behind him. When he described the difference with the Spit IX, he pumped up his chest and thumped it with his fist.