Author Topic: Norwegian Spit pilot  (Read 1223 times)

Offline agent 009

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« on: July 12, 2005, 04:46:40 AM »
web.telia.com/~u40113251/royw/raw.htm -

I know, should be put in different area. Hmm, link prob.

Well, here's another, http://www.luftwaffe.no/RAFClaims.html -  about Norwegian claims.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2005, 04:59:31 AM by agent 009 »

Offline rshubert

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« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2005, 06:29:16 AM »
Interesting.  And the most interesting thing about it is that it shows that kills were being made by Spitfire Mk. IXs in late 1942, and that Spit 14s were making kills in July 1944.

Kind of refutes the arguments made by others on this BBS, doesn't it?



shubie

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2005, 09:50:45 AM »
Just look at all those Spitfire Mk V kills in 1943 and practically no Spitfire Mk IX kills until 1944, because as he tells us, the Spitfire Mk IX was not significant until 1944.:rolleyes:

There were as many Mosquito claims as Spitfire Mk V claims in 1943 on that list.

Although I did find the first Spitfire Mk V kill claim in 1944 to be amusing:

20-06-44     V-1 destroyed    unk     332 Sqn     Sjt. Eivind Veiersted     1.     BRITAIN     Spitfire V    MJ 253
Petals floating by,
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Offline rshubert

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« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2005, 12:07:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
Just look at all those Spitfire Mk V kills in 1943 and practically no Spitfire Mk IX kills until 1944, because as he tells us, the Spitfire Mk IX was not significant until 1944.:rolleyes:

There were as many Mosquito claims as Spitfire Mk V claims in 1943 on that list.

Although I did find the first Spitfire Mk V kill claim in 1944 to be amusing:

20-06-44     V-1 destroyed    unk     332 Sqn     Sjt. Eivind Veiersted     1.     BRITAIN     Spitfire V    MJ 253


Yup.  I count only 242 claims by  Nordic Spit 9s in 1943, vs. a whopping FIVE claims by spit Vs.  Obviously, the spit V was the MUCH more important fighter in 1943.  These statistics show clearly that Although the first claim by a Nordic spit 9 was made in July of 1942--THAT'S NINETEEN HUNDRED FORTY-TWO, the spit 9 was no more than a glint in Supermarine's engineering eye until 1944.

Where's boy isengrim?  He should be here to show us where we are wrong, by now.

Offline agent 009

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« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2005, 01:02:14 PM »
Looks like 4 kills over Iceland. Angus where are you? & several in North Africa. Didn't know Norwegians got round that much.

Offline Angus

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« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2005, 06:24:01 PM »
We had Norwegian squadrons in Iceland during WW2.
They mostly did subhinting jobs, but some other as well.
There were some 50.000 or more allied troops on our little island (Well, it's about as big as England and Wales together).
Some Norse squad flew the unique Northrop seaplane.
Will take a look.
Nice post
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Squire

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« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2005, 06:38:42 PM »
This is what I have regarding IX deployments for 42-43. Some later dates are as a result of Sqns being re deployed back from other theaters. This only includes Fighter Command based in Britain (not anywhere else) units.

I will include other types when I feel its a relevent entry (Spit XII, Spit VI, Spit VII ect) otherwise they are IX dates. I wont include Typhoons or Mosquitos. They are RAF, RCAF, RAAF, and "Free" RAF units (Poles, Norwegians ect.)

Sqn #- Date (month-year)

1942:

401-8/42
133-9/42
41-10/42(Spit XII)
64-6/42
72-7/42
122-9/42
611-7/42
331-10/42
332-10/42
340-10/42
306-10/42
315-11/42

1943:

302-9/43
303-6/43
308-11/43
313-6/43(Spit VI)
316-3/43
317-9/43
341-3/43
350-12/43
504-9/43(Spit VI)
602-9/43
616-9/43(Spit VII)
453-3/43
485-7/43
91-4/43(Spit XII)
124-1/43
19-06/43(P-51B)
65-8/43
66-11/43
222-5/43
234-3/43(Spit VI)
129-6/43
131-9/43
132-9/43
165-9/43
403-1/43
410-10/43
411-10/43
412-11/43
416-3/43
421-5/43

Just as general reference, not intended as a definitive list. Make of it what you will.

Im not getting into 1944 because many IX units went on to other types (P-51s, Tempests, Spit XIVs) and if somebody wants to list all that out go ahead. I think its been amply covered anyways.
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Offline agent 009

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« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2005, 01:49:11 AM »
121 ace Robert 'Bazi' Weiss was shot down by Norwegian Spit pilot. Weiss was flyin a Dora, Northman a 14 spit as I recall. This from an article where the aircraft, (Weisse's) was excavated, & locals who saw fight told their tale.

http://www.jg54greenhearts.com/Weiss.htm -

Bazi short for Bavarian.
Results 1 - 1 of about 1 for Bazi weisse german ace - 0.17 sec. (About this page)
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Axis History Forum :: View topic - Nazi Nick-Names Master List  
An apolitical forum for discussions on the Axis nations as well as the First and Second World Wars in general. ... der weiße Moses ... air ace in ... Bazi," slang for "Bavarian." Heinz Wernicke = Known in the Luftwaffe as "Piepl" Wolf-dietrich Wilcke = Known in the Luftwaffe as "Fuerst," the German ...forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=25771&postdays=0&...&;start=0 - 120k - Cached - More from this site - Save - Block

modelingmadness.com/reviews/axis/luft/cleaver190d9.htm - From this link. Just thought I'd toss it in.

Between their arrival on the continent shortly before the opening of the Battle of the Bulge and the end of the war, the Tempests of 84 group - whose mission was "air superiority" over the Luftwaffe - suffered 115% losses in pilots killed, wounded and taken prisoner. The air war over northwestern Europe at the end of the war was as bloody as anything that happened over the Somme a generation before.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2005, 02:14:53 AM by agent 009 »

Offline Nilsen

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« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2005, 02:55:53 PM »
Even I didnt know they got around that much, but then im a navy boy :p

Offline agent 009

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« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2005, 11:23:35 PM »
Norwegians at Dieppe. 15 kills, & one Tempest. whoops. Well the Temp was attacking, what can U do?




 The North Weald Wing on their second sortie shot down eight of nine unescorted Do 217Es. Returning over the Channel, a frantic "Look out 190 approaching 3 o'clock!" caused Lt. Kristensen, Yellow One, to whip round and fire a short, effective burst. The 190 burst into flames and dived inverted into the Channel -- it was only then that they realised that it was a Typhoon ... R7815 of 266 Squadron, the pilot being killed.

Back at Dieppe, "Vanquish" was going badly. As 226 Squadron's Bostons laid dense smoke screens on the headlands and along the waterfront at 11.00 to cover the withdrawal, Luftwaffe bomber reinforcements arrived in strength and pressed home their bombardment of the beaches and together with the German gunners turned the evacuation into a worse massacre than Dunkirk. At 11.15 43 Squadron's Hurricanes attacked the East Headland, but five minutes later a call came from the beach for more smoke and air support. Again at 11.35 and 11.38, calls came in to the effect that the beaches were under tremendous fire and evacuation was impossible under such conditions. Uxbridge was inundated with calls for more bombing. Hurri-bombers were on the way, but would only arrive at noon.

At Pourville the remnants of the attack on the West Headland were being evacuated under increasing attack from both shore and air. Fw 1 90s strafed while Ju 88s were subsequently reported as "flame thrower aircraft" (early napalm?). The RAF, however, were fully engaged over Dieppe, and could not give cover here.

At last the Hurricane 11Bs arrived over Dieppe at 12.00, and their attacks kept some German gunners' heads down while Spitfires kept at bay the dogged attempts of Ju 88s, Do 217s and a few He 111s to intervene. At 12.43 three Bostons laid a last smoke screen in the face of heavy AA fire from the Royal Navy. Just after 13.00, however, the survivors on the beaches were forced to surrender -- though, as late as 13.45, RAF attacks were belatedly still going in on the Headlands and beaches, killing several Canadians who were now POWs.

Heading for England now were some 200 vessels in close convoy with the inevitable stragglers behind. With a renewed effort, the Luftwaffe tried to inflict more casualties. For the RAF fighter pilots flying their third, fourth or even fifth sorties of the day, this was the last challenge. Tn addition to the general air cover provided, eighty-six additional patrols were put up to intercept specific attacks. Only one incident was to mar what was otherwise a near-perfect essay into fighter cover. At the tail end of the convoy a free-for-all was developing over the last ships getting into station. At 13.08 a section of three Do 217s, though harried unmercifully by Spitfires, pressed home their attack. Just after 13.14, one bomb exploded under the destroyer HMS Berkeley, breaking her back. Her crew were evacuated and she was sunk by a fellow destroyer. By 15.45, the Luftwaffe, realising the futility of further mass attacks, sent single bombers to harass the convoy, using the gathering overcast for protection. But by 20.00 the convoy was nearly home and the RAF had the sky to itself. During the day the Luftwaffe had made scattered raids on South East England. They came again that night: a Do 217 falling to Wing-Cdr. Pleasance's Beaufighter of 25 Squadron. For several nights afterwards, Ju 88s intensified their shipping reconnaisance over the Channel, some falling foul of 29 Squadron.

The raid had failed, the "Reconnaisance in Force" had succeeded, though the high price was unnecessary. The RAF had played its part to the best of its ability. While it had lost more aircraft than the Luftwaffe in the air battle, the Luftwaffe had been defeated on its own doorstep -- prevented by Fighter Conimand from interfering to any great extent with the assault forces.

However, in other spheres the RAF had not been so successful. Aerial photographic reconnaissance had not been properly utilised nor supplemented by adequate ground intelligence. The tactical reconnaissance had not been completely satisfactory, and, in the fields of bombardment and close-support, the RAF had fallen short -- though through no fault of the aircrew involved: emphasis had always been placed on strategic bombing, while fighter and ground attack development had languished since 1918. In the bombardment, there had been too few aircraft and no heavy bombers -- and too many tasks. 2 Bomber Group's accuracy was also found wanting at that time. The main fault, however, lay with their essentially limited destructive potential. In the role of close support, the fighter-bombers' accuracy was out-weighed by lack of effective ordnance. In general, the situation had been too confused and too poorly co-ordinated for the air attacks to be directed on the most important targets at the right times.

Fortunately, the lessons of the raid had been well learnt, and improved methods of bombardment and support were in evidence in subsequent landings. Most important of all, however, the cross-Channel fighter offensive was duly relaxed. Much needed fighter squadrons were transferred to other theatres of operation, and early in the new year -- with more definite plans for a return to the Continent being formulated -- the Allied air offensive took on new meaning in terms of co-ordination, aims and effectiveness.

It is unfortunate that the important facts regarding the air force's part at Dieppe have since become clouded by the controversy of clashing claims. The Luftwaffe has admitted the loss of 48 aircraft, which Leigh-Mallory never believed, against the total raiding force claim (final) of 91. Luftwaffe fighters claimed 97 and Flak some 15 RAF aircraft against a total of 106* RAF aircraft lost that day. However, all historians to date have lost sight of the fact that only 95 of these, at the utmost, fell to the enemy. At least six RAF aircraft were shot down by the Royal Navy and Army AA gunners. One Typhoon was shot down by a Spitfire, two others were lost due to structural failure, and two Spitfires collided during the withdrawal across the Channel.

It would not be worth quoting a statistical breakdown of the almost 3,000 sorties flown, losses, etc., as, without a chapter on their own, these might only be misconstrued. For example, the two Norwegian squadrons claimed 15 confirmed victories, while the five Polish squadrons between them only got 17 kills. The dictum of being in the right place at the right time applies here.