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Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #45 on: July 14, 2005, 10:48:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
Hangtime, what's the purpose of your line of inquiry?  

# killed in Soviet/Russian spacecraft in flight: 4
# killed in US spacecraft in flight: 14

Both figures are over roughly the same number of manned flights.

So...  what's your point again?


The point was pounding the mindset that spouted this:

Quote
Americans made beautiful, revolutionary rockets. Saturn-V is a masterpiece. But, as usuall, you rely on "technological overkill", making your stuff too complicated and expensive. Saturn-V remained a great rocket that wasn't meant to be mass-produced.  You make stunts while we work.


That's all.
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Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #46 on: July 14, 2005, 11:23:44 PM »
C'mon, just imrubberyoureglueit.
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #47 on: July 14, 2005, 11:30:39 PM »
Neener, neener, neeener.

;)
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Offline Boroda

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« Reply #48 on: July 15, 2005, 12:38:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
The point was pounding the mindset that spouted this:

That's all.


Hang, can't you see that the mood of my anwer was the same as yours? ;)

In the phrase I quoted (not very polite, sorry) I tried to show the difference between approaches. Things like Saturn-V simply couldn't be reproduced in USSR, regardless to the sum of money spent, and I hope you know that Soviet space programm suffered from funding problems even during the Moon-race. The art of engineering is to use what you have and make what you want with it. Exaple: if USSR had Sabre blueprints in 1949 - they couldn't produce it, thechnology didn't give you the nessessary quality and precision...

About Soyuz-1: do you know how John Glenn's first orbit flight went? He was really lucky that he stayed alive...

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #49 on: July 15, 2005, 01:08:21 PM »
I know, Pavel.. I hugely enjoy jabbing you thru the bars of your commie brain cage. Beauty is, we both know exactly what the rules are... and it's fun. :)

Justa make yah feel better, we've had a fair number of very close calls in our program too... On August 29, 1965, Gemini 5 landed 130 kilometers short of its planned Pacific Ocean landing point due to a software error. The Earth's rotation rate had been programmed as one revolution per solar day instead of the correct value, one revolution per sidereal day.

The Gemini 8 crew narrowly averted disaster on March 17 1966 after a maneuvering thruster would not shut down and put their capsule into an uncontrolled spin.

Three of the five Lunar Landing Research and Training vehicles (LLRV & LLTV) were destroyed in crashes near Houston, Texas. LLRV No. 1 crashed on May 6, 1968 at Ellington AFB, Texas, Neil Armstrong was flying the craft at the time and had to eject. LLTV No. 1 crashed on December 8, 1968 at Ellington AFB, Texas causing MSC test pilot Joseph Algranti to eject safely. Another LLTV crashed at Ellington AFB, Texas on January 29, 1971. NASA test pilot Stuart Present ejected safely.

The rocket that launched Apollo 12 on November 14 1969 was struck by lightning shortly after lift-off. All on-board systems were temporarily disabled... imagine riding a dead rocket into space... they couldn't trigger the escape system even if they tried to. Dammo!

In the most celebrated "near miss", the Apollo 13 crew came home safely after an explosion on April 14, 1970 crippled their spacecraft en route to the moon. They survived the loss of most of their spacecraft systems by relying on the Lunar Module to provide life support and power for the trip home.

Apollo 13 also had a close call during launch that almost resulted in a launch abort. It was overshadowed by later events. The second stage center engine experienced violent pogo oscillations that luckily caused it to shut down early. The two ton engine, solidly bolted to its massive thrust frame, was bouncing up and down at 68 g. This was flexing the frame 3 inches (76 mm) at 16 Hz. After three seconds of these pogo oscillations the engine's "low chamber pressure" switch was tripped. The switch had not been designed to trip in this manner, but luckily it did. This led to the engines automatic shutdown. If the pogo had continued, it could have torn the Saturn V apart... which explains in small part the current huge concern over the low fuel cutoff sensor difficulty the current shuttle is working through.

On January 23, 1971, Gene Cernan was flying a helicopter as part of his Lunar Module training as Backup Commander for Apollo 14. The helicopter crashed into the Banana River at Cape Canaveral, Florida. Cernan nearly drowned because he was not wearing a life vest and received some second-degree burns on his face and singed hair. According to official reports at the time, the crash was the result of mechanical failure. Later accounts, written by Cernan himself in an autobiography admit he was flying too low and showing off for nearby boaters. The helicopter dipped a skid into the water and crashed. James McDivitt, an Apollo Manager at the time, demanded that Cernan be removed from flight status and not be given Command of Apollo 17. He was defended by Deke Slayton and given the Apollo 17 command. James McDivitt resigned as an Apollo Manager shortly after the Apollo 16 mission.

During final descent and parachute deployment for the ASTP Command Module on July 24, 1975, the U.S. crew were exposed to 300 µL/L of toxic nitrogen tetroxide gas (RCS fuel) venting from the spacecraft and re-entering a cabin air intake. A switch was left in the wrong position. 400 µL/L is fatal. Vance Brand became unconscious. The crew members suffered from burning sensations of their eyes, faces, noses, throats and lungs. Thomas Stafford quickly broke out emergency oxygen masks and put one on Brand and gave one to Deke Slayton. The crew were exposed to the toxic gas from 24,000 ft (7.3 km) down to landing. About an hour after landing the crew developed chemical induced pneumonia and their lungs had edema. They experienced shortness of breath and were hospitalized in Hawaii. The crew spent two weeks in the hospital. By July 30, their chest x-rays appeared to return to normal. Deke later died of lung cancer.

Death-wize, 4% astronaut fatalities vs 2% cosmonaut fatalities... you lose more on the ground, we lose more on the vehicles.

Biggest diffrence I see between the two programs has always been the depth of concern shown for the saftey of the folks involved... as Skuzzy pointed out, had our program been plauged with the death toll yours experienced early on, we'd have shut the program down... and every time we did lose lives, the program stopped in it's tracks and went back to hunt the cause, and spent whatever it took to fix it. Sadly, thank's to our 'bus' spacecraft, when we mess up, the death toll is very large...

Our best hope for success in space remains in large part a joint program where commonality of engineering and knowlege is freely exchanged between the space-faring nations. We don't need another Chaffe, White & Grissom disaster.. one that would never have happened had we known the details of the Bandarenko tragedy.

Cheers, you commie martyr dirtbag!
;)
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Offline Boroda

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« Reply #50 on: July 15, 2005, 01:59:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
I know, Pavel.. I hugely enjoy jabbing you thru the bars of your commie brain cage. Beauty is, we both know exactly what the rules are... and it's fun. :)


Same thing here ;) We have two rows of bars between us ;)

Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
Justa make yah feel better, we've had a fair number of very close calls in our program too...


It doesn't make me feel better in any way. Cosmonautics is a dangerous business, and in such an innovative field accidents happen :( Even now cosmonauts are not "passengers", they risk their lives and have to show their best skills and devotion.

Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
Biggest diffrence I see between the two programs has always been the depth of concern shown for the saftey of the folks involved... as Skuzzy pointed out, had our program been plauged with the death toll yours experienced early on, we'd have shut the program down... and every time we did lose lives, the program stopped in it's tracks and went back to hunt the cause, and spent whatever it took to fix it. Sadly, thank's to our 'bus' spacecraft, when we mess up, the death toll is very large...


Bondarenko's death didn't have anything to do with actual spacecraft design, Soviet spaceships never used pure oxygen atmosphere...

I hate to say it, but Challeger catastrophe made me really interested in space exploration. I still remember how I heard about it, on a radio in a kitchen, having breakfast before school... I still have a huge collection of newspaper articles about it, almost everything from central and Moscow city press, walking my dog in the evening I cut atricles from newspaper-stands if they contained some info that wasn't mentioned in papers my family wasn't subscribed to...

I went to study in Moscow High Technical College (Rocket College on Yauza river, as it was called in Voice of America transmittions) because I wanted to become an air/space engineer, but chose a wrong department according to my Father's advise :(

Space Shuttle is another relic from Cold War, it's only reasonable purpose was to "steal" sattelites from orbit. Both shuttle programs suffered from costs rising through design/production chain...

Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
Our best hope for success in space remains in large part a joint program where commonality of engineering and knowlege is freely exchanged between the space-faring nations. We don't need another Chaffe, White & Grissom disaster.. one that would never have happened had we known the details of the Bandarenko tragedy.


Completely agreed. We have cheap and reliable launchers for up to 20 tons to low orbit, and great experience in long-term life-support systems, including physiological consequences of zero-G. You have expensive modern hi-tech applications, including super-high power launcher technology experience. We must work together. At least new "iron curtain" should not block this cooperation.

Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
Cheers, you commie martyr dirtbag!
;)


I am not a "martyr", my liver is :D Your health! ;)

Offline Wolfala

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« Reply #51 on: July 15, 2005, 02:33:02 PM »
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I am not a "martyr", my liver is  Your health!



If only I had the server space to post the video of U, Me and Eva drinking. The best comment's early on "She's speaking like, a very very sober woman." Then the camera pan's over to Eva's face, who according to her has been drunk twice in her life. Well, anyway - it was a priceless expression. Great time that night - I did 12 shots, she did 15 and was hovering in the bathroom for the rest of the night. I think you were upto 20 when you left around 11pm to continue with Estel until 4am, but I don't remember.

Man that was a great time.

Wolf


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Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #52 on: July 15, 2005, 03:10:20 PM »
Pavel, yer a bit mistaken regarding the pure oxygen atmosphere.. your initial trans-orbital design incorportated the same system we were working with. Your side learned of the danger the hard way (as did we years later) and changed the design before sending a Soyuz to space.

On March 23, 1961, Valentin Bondarenko became the first space related casualty of all time while undergoing training in a special low pressure chamber with a pure oxygen atmosphere.

Bondarenko accidentally dropped an alcohol soaked cloth onto an electric hotplate. In the pure oxygen environment, the fire quickly engulfed the entire chamber. Bondarenko was barely alive when the chamber was opened, and died of his burns in hospital a short time later. At the time of the accident, Bondarenko's death had been covered up by the Soviet government and was not known about in the US program... had we known what happened to him and why... :(

Quote
Space Shuttle is another relic from Cold War, it's only reasonable purpose was to "steal" sattelites from orbit. Both shuttle programs suffered from costs rising through design/production chain...


LOL.. commie martyr paranoia!! Again!!  Gawd, you crack me up sometimes. ;)
« Last Edit: July 15, 2005, 03:12:45 PM by Hangtime »
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Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #53 on: July 15, 2005, 04:33:11 PM »
BTW, we may have 'learned' from the Apollo 1 fire, but...  all the Apollo missions still went up with pure oxygen atmospheres.  The lessons learned were:
1. Not so much fuel maybe (flammable velcro, etc)
2. Perhaps it is being not so great an idea to pressurize capsule to 17+lbs on the pad with pure O2?
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #54 on: July 16, 2005, 10:48:13 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Wolfala
If only I had the server space to post the video of U, Me and Eva drinking. The best comment's early on "She's speaking like, a very very sober woman." Then the camera pan's over to Eva's face, who according to her has been drunk twice in her life. Well, anyway - it was a priceless expression. Great time that night - I did 12 shots, she did 15 and was hovering in the bathroom for the rest of the night. I think you were upto 20 when you left around 11pm to continue with Estel until 4am, but I don't remember.

Man that was a great time.

Wolf


Alex, you have a strange opportunistic habit of counting "shots". We had about one litre, of which I drank a halflitre of that crappy cranberry plus some white. 250ml of vodka is only enough to make you feel fine ;) We are not Germans ;) You know, there was a reference book on poisons published in East Germany, ethanol was listed with a lethal dose of 250ml, with a footnote: "Doesn't apply to Russians" :) It's not a joke, I saw it with my own eyes.

When Eva told me that you recorded our drinking party on video - I didn't believe her ;) Are you sure that you didn't study at Langley? ;) J/K :D

You looked at us with really wide eyes :) People enjoying vodka with salo, spring onions, sour cabbige and black bread definetly look strange for foreigners :) I was surprised myself that Eva enjoyed salo... My choise of food was absolutely proletarian/peasant, just the stuff that goes well with vodka.

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #55 on: July 16, 2005, 12:38:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
Pavel, yer a bit mistaken regarding the pure oxygen atmosphere.. your initial trans-orbital design incorportated the same system we were working with. Your side learned of the danger the hard way (as did we years later) and changed the design before sending a Soyuz to space.

On March 23, 1961, Valentin Bondarenko became the first space related casualty of all time while undergoing training in a special low pressure chamber with a pure oxygen atmosphere.

Bondarenko accidentally dropped an alcohol soaked cloth onto an electric hotplate. In the pure oxygen environment, the fire quickly engulfed the entire chamber. Bondarenko was barely alive when the chamber was opened, and died of his burns in hospital a short time later. At the time of the accident, Bondarenko's death had been covered up by the Soviet government and was not known about in the US program... had we known what happened to him and why... :(


Bondarenko was performing a training/test in a low-pressure chamber (barocamera), the pressure was as low as at 8-10 km high, with atmospheric air he could simply strangle, it was a test not for low-oxygen but to check his ability to withstand low pressure.

And that accident once more shows that all problems we, Russians, have are because of alcohol :)

Frankly speaking - you don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand that pure oxygen atmosphere even at low pressure may cause troubles. I think that the main reason for O2/N2 atmosphere in Soviet spaceships was the fact that it was impossible to make everything work without electric sparks. :(

Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
LOL.. commie martyr paranoia!! Again!!  Gawd, you crack me up sometimes. ;)


Hang, my Father worked for Buran programm, he was a scientific supervisor (i hope it's a right term) for ground facilities capital construction, so I heard the word "Buran" even before me and my Mother moved to Moscow from Leningrad following Father. Father has a great habit to talk about serious things with his son, so I remember this things pretty well.

If you look at delivery costs per 1kg for disposable launchers like Soyuz (R-7) or Proton vs. re-usable vehicles (Shuttle or Buran) - it's obvious that there must be some reason other then having a low-orbit delivery unit with the size of a 40ton railway car. And "orbital bomber" hallucinations were obviously unreal even when they remained on paper.

Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #56 on: July 16, 2005, 12:56:59 PM »
No, the high cost per kilo is because the estimates were waaaaay too optimistic.  The Shuttle was supposed to offer cheap access to space.  It failed in that regard.

Never ascribe to malice that which can be ascribed to stupidity.
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Offline Boroda

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« Reply #57 on: July 16, 2005, 01:45:42 PM »
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Originally posted by Chairboy
No, the high cost per kilo is because the estimates were waaaaay too optimistic.  The Shuttle was supposed to offer cheap access to space.  It failed in that regard.

Never ascribe to malice that which can be ascribed to stupidity.


It doesn't explain that Soviet Buran programm, that, in fact, made USSR bankrupt, started to go to production (beyond R&D) after what you said became obvious.

Defence purposes always are funded. I mean in super-powers, not like modern Russia.

Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #58 on: July 16, 2005, 02:08:08 PM »
Ah, I thought you were talking about the US Space shuttle, not Buran.
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis