Defensive flying in a Ki-84 (or other twisty-turny things)

[wetrat]

OK, so I was watching some of my Ki-84 films this afternoon and was surprised at how often I do different variations of the same thing when I'm attacked (it's kind of embarrassing actually). Like... at least once a sortie. Anyways, I figure some of you might get something out of it.

I just took some clips out of my films as I watched them... they're here. You'll need WinRAR to extract them.


To explain the "reversal" I do over and over a little (I'm sure it has a name - feel free to fill me in), I basically make sure I'm slower, and depending on what kind of plane I'm trying to reverse on, I vary how much I cut throttle. If it's an La7 flying balls to the wall, I'll generally keep near-full throttle, a spit I'll generally be totally cut. Just start out with a lazy turn to get them to commit a little (anywhere between 1.5-3.0 out is best to start), and as they close tighten it up. Once they're in close, roll, pull up over the top and try to get your guns on your target. Sometimes that results in a pretty snapshot kill, most of the time you either saddle up or just stay alive a little longer.

I tossed in a couple films of fighting outnumbered where I do variations of that... "gangraped" involves a fair bit of dumb luck, but I'll chalk that up to it being one of my first sorties after coming back to AH

I'm most definitely not the only person that does this "reversal" (or whatever the hell you want to call it), so I'm sure someone else can offer a better explanation for it.

[MajWoody]

Nice films,

 I was flying the ki84 for awhile but just can't get it around the corner nearly as fast as you, & wilbuz. I think maybe I tended to be too fast. I also didn't fly with combat trim & trimmed it a little noze up. Is that what you do?

 Again, nice films & thx for posting them.

[wetrat]

I trim elevators full up when I'm fighting... I keep elevator trim on my throttle. Makes gunnery a bit more difficult sometimes, but it's helpful against spits and such.

[Kweassa]

Trimming the elevators fully up would make you prone to overinputs in the pitch axis - and the Ki-84, is not a very stable plane. Well, it's stable enough to use the minimal stall limiter settings in the turn radius tests, but it still has some nasty snap rolling characteristics when the plane enters uncoordinated flight - which is, however, neutralized in most cases, thanks to the excellent flaps.

 Kinda awkward, since you're a much better pilot than me wetrat, but I would recommend a neutral elev. setting during combat, trimming up only when high-speed maneuvering is involved.

 As for combatting Spitfires.. I find horizontal turns much more effective than vertical turns. Turning in the horizontal plane is a downhill fight. Massive amount of E dumped and none gained. And in this kind of fight, the Ki84 can drop speed fast enough to pull down flaps early in the engagement - once the flaps are out, its no contest. While the Spit5 has a little bit smaller turn radius than the Ki-84, once the flaps are out the enhanced stability of the Ki-84 makes it the winner. Every Spitfire in the game between Mk.5 to Mk.16 is outright outturned pretty easily once the flaps are down.

 The problem is, when vertical turns are involved, the downwards part of the loops/wingovers often increase speed in the Ki-84 that the flaps are retracted... and this makes the Ki-84 lag behind the Spit a little bit when going downwards.. not to mention that when the flaps retract, the 'twitchy' nature of the unstable Ki-84 returns... Another problem is when the vertical loop happens at too low speeds, the Ki-84 shows a tendency to fall under a lethal inverted flat spin..  It's very small bit of advantage to the Spitfire, but some excellent Spit pilots can use that to their advantage.

 So in my case, I try to force the fight into the pure horizontal plane - where both planes run out of alternatives and must(!) finish the fight no matter what. Once the flaps pop out, within two~three circles, the Ki-84 can get behind the Spitfire decisively, managing a very good gun solution.

[RightF00T]

wetrat like you I do that same manuever almost religiously when at a disadvantage and even put myself at a disadvantage on purpose some times to use this manuever because I have found generally it sets me up for the best shots.  Especially if the pilot is still flying full throttle and tries to follow.  Watch em in the side view then ready your guns and rudder to be traversed across their wing root.  The trouble comes when they chop throttle and end up floating indefinitely behind you at d200.  Usually ends in a nice tour of the tower.

I remember reading about this manuever from someone a couple years back and saw how succesful it is.  can't remember who the enlightenment came from though.

[Spatula]

sounds, in part, a bit like the opening move of a rolling sissors?

[LoneStarBuckeye]

I believe that Drex developed, perfected, and/or publicized this form of reversal.  Here he is describing it in detail in response to an interview (for simhq, IIRC) question:

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Question:  You are presented with the following situation: a typical "angles" fighter, such as a Spitfire, is bounced by a typical "energy" fighter, such as the P-38. The attacker has the altitude advantage and is using a boom and zoom attack on you. What should you do?

Drex's Answer:

Reversals

In order to reverse a bogie in such a manner to present a favorable gun solution, the following actions may be used to create the desired result.  Not all actions are always required but in general the reversal will be much more effective if all conditions are met.
1)    Cause the energy state of the bogie to converge with yours.
2)    Cause a rapid closure rate to limit the bogie's firing opportunity.
3)    For a period of time lead the bogie to believe that he is very close to an effective gun solution.
4)    Deny the bogie an effective gun solution.
5)    Keep the bogie in sight at all times.
6)    Cause the bogie to lose sight of you.
7)    Cause an overshoot
I will illustrate this with an example of a Spit V being bounced by a P-38L. The initial conditions are a P-38L 2000 yards behind the Spit V with a considerable energy advantage.
To initiate the reversal, the Spit begins a gentle nose down turn to the left (it could be either direction but the purposes of this example I have chosen an initial maneuver to the left) while watching the bogie on his 6. At this point the P-38 pilot probably starts to anticipate easy plane-form shot and will begin to set up his gun solution. As the P-38 closes the Spitfire tightens its turn and noses down, carefully observing the P-38 behavior.
The initial maneuver the Spitfire executes is essentially the start of a low YoYo. Typically the P-38 will do one of three things.
1.  In the unlikely event the P-38 breaks off and starts going up to preserve his energy advantage, he will lose sight of the Spitfire as he noses up.   This frees the Spitfire to maneuver out of the view of the P-38, giving it a brief period to climb and bank some energy, reverse its turn to add unpredictability to its path etc... The Spitfire can play this game indefinitely until the P-38 gets aggressive and presses for a gun solution.
2.  If the P-38 goes into lag pursuit (i.e. pressing the attack but in a cautious manner), the Spitfire can continue to tighten the turn perhaps continuing to dive. Note that at this point in time the energy states of the 2 fighters are converging. Both are bleeding speed by pulling G's and if diving both are losing energy from the dive. However the P-38 started with a large energy advantage and will necessarily lose more energy as it follows the Spitfire. The P-38 started substantially faster and has to pull harder G's to follow the slower Spit through the turns, thus bleeding more energy. This also means that the P-38 pilot will start to black out sooner in the turn than the Spitfire pilot. The Spitfire needs to carefully observe the P-38 and turn just tight enough to always give the P-38 the impression that it is a split second from an effective gun solution but to continually deny them that gun solution. It will quite often be necessary for the Spit pilot to chop his throttle to further tighten his turn. Note that if the Spitfire pilot starts to black out it is a sure bet that the pilot in the P-38 has already entered blackout due to the higher G's he is pulling. When the Spitfire can see the P-38 beginning to slip past and outside of his turning circle (or when he feels the 38 pilot is blacking out, or giving up the turning pursuit) the Spitfire can reverse direction going nose-high at full power. At this point the Spitfire and 38 are engaged in a rolling scissors but the 38 pilot is already slipping ahead.  Furthermore, the 38 probably still has slightly higher speed and this extra speed means that it is very unlikely to be able to keep the Spitfire from quickly getting behind it and achieving an effective gun solution.
3.  The most likely action for the P-38 is to go into lead pursuit and set up a gun-solution.   The Spit pilot continues to nose down and tighten the turn.  As the P-38 pulls lead for his shot, (diving and pulling G's to do so) the energy states of the 2 fighters converge. The angle of closure approaches 90 degrees leading to rapid closure and a very limited firing time. The Spitfire carefully observes the nose position of the P-38 and when the Spitfire pilot judges that he has passed under the nose of the P-38 and is now out of sight he does a gentle nose high turn to the right. The most certain clue that the P-38 has pulled lead for his firing solution and lost sight of the Spitfire is the appearance of tracers from his nose. At this point if the Spitfire pilot has judged his enemy's angle and position correctly he will be in a gentle (so as not to unnecessarily bleed energy) climbing turn to the right (essentially a barrel roll) watching the P-38 through the top of his canopy as it continues to pull a hard G left turn towards where it thinks the Spitfire is. During this maneuver the Spitfire may briefly lose sight of the P-38. However the P-38 may be firing and the Spitfire can then watch the P-38's tracers to see where the P-38 is headed.
The energy states are converging very rapidly at this point as the Spitfire is climbing and banking a little energy while the P-38 is pulling a hard turn and bleeding his. When the P-38 realizes that his target has disappeared, he can do several things. Most pilots' initial reaction is to pull their nose up and regain the safety of altitude. Although the P-38 probably still has a significant energy advantage over the Spit, the instinct to go up will get them rapidly killed in this case as the Spitfire is already slightly above them and pointed up. The Spitfire pilot has only to position his aircraft to form a gun solution and blows the P-38 away as it climbs past. Often in the brief period of disorientation that follows when the P-38 pilot realizes that he has lost track of his target, he will continue to do what he is already doing. i.e. he will continue the hard left turn. In this case it is a trivial matter for the Spitfire to roll down onto his tail and kill him. If the P-38 pilot quickly realizes what has happened his best course is to unload his aircraft and extend to safety. However, even in this case an alert Spitfire pilot will probably be given a brief long range gun solution.

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JNOV

[Sable]

IMO the real key to this maneuver is "selling" it.  If you pull too hard or too soon the bouncing fighter sees that he won't get a guns solution and just blows through and extends horizontally or vertically.  You have to keep a rather low rate of turn long enough to get them to "bite" and go for their guns solution.  

I'm interested to see if anyone has any good ideas on how to defeat this maneuver as the bouncing fighter.  The typical situation I see is me in an E fighter of some sort bouncing a Spit or N1K.  They see me coming in on their 6, and start their break.  As I start to go to lead pursuit for my shot, their rate of turn starts increasing rapidly, sometimes including a small out of plane low jink.  At this point (d800 or so) it's very clear that there is no shot oppurtunity.  What I usually do at this point is unload, level out, and as they drop in on my 6 let the range build back up to about 800+ (with a slight jink as neccesary) before making a smooth vertical pull to reposition.  

99% of the time if they are smart enough to be running a reversal like this on you, they aren't going to follow you up and get roped and you wind up back at square one.  The other alternative is chopping throttle/using flaps and trying to take them in the rolling scissors and this generally works well if the target is similar to you in maneuverability.  But in a 190D or P-51 against a N1k that just won't fly against a skilled opponent.  Usually I just end up making repeated passes until they make a timing error and I can get a shot in, or until some greater threat presents itself.

[Messiah]

Defeating this "manouver" is about seeing it early and good gunnery.  Once I see the enemy initiate this i usually chop throttle and/or kick rudders and do a barrel roll to the opposite side they are turning and then they are screwed as long as I don't miss the shot, however sometimes good pilots can still get you.

[Mugzeee]

I do this same manuever or slight variations also.
I first seen it on a Levi film and it has saved but butt ever since.
I have dubbed it the Cut-n-Zoom. Like Spat said..its the beginings of a rolling sissors.
Dang Wetrat...where you dig up them lawn darts at?
King of the proxie should be the name of that first film
thanks

[wetrat]

When you're getting gangbanged, everyone's fighting eachother for that kill. Sometimes you can get proxies just from breaking in a way that the less maneuverable planes can't follow, since newbies always go for the shot.

[Schatzi]

To 'defeat' this maneuver, I usually chop throttle to equalize speeds and yoyo off high to avoid overshoot, usually ending up in a rolling scissor afterwards.

[MajWoody]

Been waiting for Wilbuz to chime in here. Where is he anyway?

[LippyCH]

Wetrat has pwnaged me multiple times in multiple planes with this move. I think I will just start ramming any plane I see doing this and hope its him, cause I have no other hope LOL:).

[wetrat]

Originally posted by LippyCH
Wetrat has pwnaged me multiple times in multiple planes with this move. I think I will just start ramming any plane I see doing this and hope its him, cause I have no other hope LOL:).

LOL... 'tis true, you're  a sucker for it.. I have the films to prove it