Is this right?!

[Saxman]

Ok, I need some opinions on this fight. I REALLY wish I'd filmed this, but I never remember to turn the thing on.

Anyway, I'm in an F4U-1, and have recently completed a high-speed bounce of a Hurri 2C pursuing a friendly buff formation (REALLY sweet fight, too. Hurri in behind the buffs, me screaming in at 450+ from 12k alt on his six, all three of us firing. Me and the buffs catch the Hurri in the crossfire, and I got the kill, tho I'm amazed neither me nor the bombers killshooted each other with all that lead flying around, lol!)

After the run the sector is appears clear. No dots anywhere above, below, or at co-alt, so I settle in to orbit the field we'd been targeting waiting for more friendlies to arrive and cap it. I check the map and a red darbar pops on the sector, so I throttle up to full and keep an eye towards the field, where I'm expecting him to be coming from.

All the sudden *ping-ping-ping-ping-ping-ping-ping-ping-THUD!* and I see a wobbling plane overshooting me after having just sprayed me and clipped my Hog, neither of us taking any noticeable damage (TWICE I got taken totally by surprise when I knew there was SOMEONE in the area, the first was an La-5 who caught me circling my own base at ~5-7k, with the puffy ack not lighting up around him until RIGHT as he blew my wing off. My SA SUCKED today).

Situation: Enemy is a Spit VIII. I'm at relatively low airspeed (~200-250mph) so can't run out level or try to zoom on him. I'm low enough (~2-5k alt so can't dive out and extend). There's no other hostiles or friendlies nearby.

I'm already in a bad spot, with a big E disadvantage, so I figure my best chance is to try and keep him overshooting and see if I can get some room to maneuver, so I dump gear and flaps and start turning.

At first it turns into a series of front-quarter passes. The first we both manage to get a shot off, and I see strikes hit in his left wing, but again, no telling damage (I don't remember him hitting me). I try and keep more vertical, looping and yo-yoing rather than letting him drag me into a straight circle fight. I roll a couple times when he's about to gain angles to get out of phase.

This goes on for a good few minutes, ranging from near-stall to high enough air speeds where my flaps start auto-retracting, and we eventually end up on the deck. What I can't believe is that I'm actually starting to GAIN angles against him. Finally, as I come through the bottom of a loop I just about have a guns solution when he wobbles for a minute and augers in. A few moments later my own wing dips and I go down (first, if he hadn't augered, I think I'd have had him anyway. Second, if I'd have tucked my gear as soon as he went down it might've given me just enough of a boost to pull up).

What happened here? By all accounts I should've been as good as dead in that fight. Was he a poor or inexperienced pilot (would account for missing the REALLY easy bounce I offered him, tho that could've been bad gunnery rather than bad flying). Was his plane damaged more seriously by either the collision or the shot I landed on his left wing than I though (I THOUGHT I saw he may have been missing an aileron, but am not sure, but that wouldn't have seriously impacted his ability to pull lead in that fight)? Was it the way I was fighting? Using loops and yo-yos rather than circling with him (so far, I've found some success using a high yo-yo or pursuit roll when I'm trailing a break-turning Spit in an F4U to drop back into a shooting position)? Or was I just DAMN lucky to have won that fight and had the opportunity to come out alive?

As I have trouble fighting Spits of all Marks in an F4U, I'm REALLY interested in knowing what might have happened in this fight.

[Schatzi]

Pilot experience and Stall Limiter would be my best guess.

And the Spit8 can be a handful at low speeds (has a snasty snap tendency), but i dont fly it much so this is speaking from very little experience.

A well flown F4U (use of flaps and throttle) can be quite a handful, even in a Spit.

[Balsy]

Saxman,

I fly the F4u1 quite a bit against spits VIII, 14, 16, and seafires.  As long as you keep some vertical its basically an even fight, or better.  Once on the deck and moving to slower speeds in a death circle you will initially have the advantage of being able to slow down and turn quicker.  If you dont take this opportunity, eventually the spit 8 will get around on you as will the sea fire, the spit 14, and 16 (if flown well) will start to climb out of the death spiral and use its climb advantage to gain vertical separation and then kill you. If its not flown well they will take a dirt nap.

The F4u1 against any and all spits is a fun fite to be sure, you can use the spits strength of maintaining E against it, but your main advantage is when 95% of Spit pilots see an F4u they think its easy lunch and tend not to fly the spit to its limits early on in the fight.

I've had some great F4u1-versus Spit 5 fites on the deck with good pilots, those fites always devolve into a circle fite, and as soon as I see my shot opportunity pass, its time to extend, get separation and try for the overshoot again.

Balsy

[Pooface]

f4u is fast, takes a lot of punishment, has airbrakes, and turns like a spit. it's a tough cookie for sure. it's not easy to get it to do things like that, but if the other guy is a decent stick, and you being only a few months old, might not be as experienced as him. pilot skill is the deciding factor in any fight. i mean, i've turnfought fighters in a goon before and stayed on their 6 until a friendly blasted em, which is a good laugh

experience is one of those things you cant learn, you gotta earn. any time you need someone t practise with, just come by the TA. there is always someone in there, and most of the trainers are very good sticks. and if you'd like i will come and show you some moves you can try in the spit next time







asking will get you answers, so the more questions you ask, the better!

[TexMurphy]

The last thing you want in a F4U or a Jug is to get caught low with little E. Especially if the plane above you is a slower better turning plane.

What you can do in that situation is to make sure he keeps BnZing you. Dont let him turn fight you.

Give him your six. As he is at 1.5k go into a shallow turn and at 1000 tighten it up a little... Let him zoom out... extend and climb a little...

Once again give him your six. Let him make his pass.. avoid it.. extend and climb...

You want to get enough E to create your exit point.

Once you have it you have to decide if you wana exit or if you wana try getting co-E with him.

Its quite likely that as you build your E he gets more and more stressed. This means that you can get a reverse move in on him.

Set it up like you have been... at 1.5k go into a shallow turn.. at 1000m tighten it up a bit and go into a barrell roll...

If he decides not to zoom he will still have a wider instant turn then you due to his E advantage. A barrell roll here can get you in on his six.

Note that if your turning right you want to do your barrell roll counter clockwise... to the oposite direction of the turn.

But most important dont ever get into this situation. Only way to avoid it is to always climb when you arnt engaged or arnt engaging. Always climb. Your default cruise mode should be climb.

Tex.

[Pooface]

Originally posted by TexMurphy
The last thing you want in a F4U or a Jug is to get caught low with little E. Especially if the plane above you is a slower better turning plane.

What you can do in that situation is to make sure he keeps BnZing you. Dont let him turn fight you.

Give him your six. As he is at 1.5k go into a shallow turn and at 1000 tighten it up a little... Let him zoom out... extend and climb a little...

Once again give him your six. Let him make his pass.. avoid it.. extend and climb...

You want to get enough E to create your exit point.

Once you have it you have to decide if you wana exit or if you wana try getting co-E with him.

Its quite likely that as you build your E he gets more and more stressed. This means that you can get a reverse move in on him.

Set it up like you have been... at 1.5k go into a shallow turn.. at 1000m tighten it up a bit and go into a barrell roll...

If he decides not to zoom he will still have a wider instant turn then you due to his E advantage. A barrell roll here can get you in on his six.

Note that if your turning right you want to do your barrell roll counter clockwise... to the oposite direction of the turn.

But most important dont ever get into this situation. Only way to avoid it is to always climb when you arnt engaged or arnt engaging. Always climb. Your default cruise mode should be climb.

Tex.

i got into a slow, climbing turnfight with a ki84 while flying a chog.


we got below 100. in the end, i all i needed to do was let him get some e over me, and set up a perfect overshoot. it's really annoying, i never get these kind of fights on camera, but it was pretty much the perfect ACM lol.


just gave him some e over me, he dived, i break high and into him, and then rolled over and blasted him in the tail. he had the e advantage the whole time, and he was a very good pilot. hard to explain.

but yeah, the hog has a way of pulling off maneuvers just how you want them to. you just gotta plan ahead

[Saxman]

Hm... Thinking. My greatest enemy.

Well, I do try to put SOME thought into it. I don't like entering fights from below 10k alt if I can avoid it, and definately prefer to have an alt advantage over any enemies to begin with. I also prefer entering a fight with an extended shallow dive rather than pulling up right over the fight and rolling in at a steeper AoA. My BnZ is inconsistent. Sometime I pick the right target and he doesn't see me coming or if he does it's too late or he's not in the position to evade, sometimes he breaks or my gunnery just plain sucks that day and I blow it. I'm most successful with hit and run when I'm clearing sixes and have several times blindsided someone intent on a friendly. If I have the opportunity and position my favorite approach is at high speeds (400+) between the 5 and 7-low position, in the blind spot under the tail.

Anyway, thanks for the info, y'all. A lot of it tho is stuff it'd be a lot easier to visualize by seeing it, rather than read it. Anyone wants to up in the TA with me I have a day off...today, actually. Give me a time (prefer it in CST) and I can let you know if I can make it.

[Pooface]

Originally posted by Saxman
Hm... Thinking. My greatest enemy.

Well, I do try to put SOME thought into it. I don't like entering fights from below 10k alt if I can avoid it, and definately prefer to have an alt advantage over any enemies to begin with. I also prefer entering a fight with an extended shallow dive rather than pulling up right over the fight and rolling in at a steeper AoA. My BnZ is inconsistent. Sometime I pick the right target and he doesn't see me coming or if he does it's too late or he's not in the position to evade, sometimes he breaks or my gunnery just plain sucks that day and I blow it. I'm most successful with hit and run when I'm clearing sixes and have several times blindsided someone intent on a friendly. If I have the opportunity and position my favorite approach is at high speeds (400+) between the 5 and 7-low position, in the blind spot under the tail.

Anyway, thanks for the info, y'all. A lot of it tho is stuff it'd be a lot easier to visualize by seeing it, rather than read it. Anyone wants to up in the TA with me I have a day off...today, actually. Give me a time (prefer it in CST) and I can let you know if I can make it.

ok, im in GMT over here. so i can go with you, lets say 12pm CST?

[Saxman]

cc, that sounds good. Meet in the TA or on the Main? Pooface your handle in the arenas?