Author Topic: Tactical Question: Co-E power plane vs turner (Read 631 times)

Simaril · « **on:** June 25, 2006, 09:31:33 PM »

I know there's no formula, but I'm wondering about the approach in this situation, with assymetric plane capabilities as a Co-E start.

For example, take the La-7 vs a SPit VIII. (I originally thought about the Fu-4, but then found it OUTTURNS the SPIT with flaps full out....)

The VIII has a better turn, and can climb more steeply; if the La goes vertical the VIII could pull inside the loop for a shot. A spiral climb would go to the VIII as well. The La7 can extend (borrrrriiiinngggg), but that also lets the VIII turn into him and reset the merges. The VIII can climb steeply while the LA get speed during extension, cutting into the La's advantage. If the La attacks with high speed slashes, he's liekly to be left with a low % shot.

So in general -- Whats the best way for the power plane to build his advantage?

SAS_KID · « **Reply #1 on:** June 25, 2006, 10:04:55 PM »

I myself use the LA slow against spits. Fyi. very slow scissors with full flaps engine off and such. Also, I find it will roll well at any speed so even when stalling i can change my heading anyway i want while that spit is left hanging there for my kill. Also, I will play a lil rope da dope. Or even funner is making a spit start to loop with you hit neg g roll and split s so when he is pulling for the loop shot you have gone down disappering then you split S gain E to come in behind him. Also, if you are turn fighting once you see him pull for a deflection shot yuo hit neg g roll and turn in opposite direction so you disappear and he has to find you. In addition, if you think the person is inexpirenced usually the Spit16 drivers you can turn with them with full elevators and notch of flaps then for the kil you just high or low yoyo.

Spatula · « **Reply #2 on:** June 25, 2006, 10:21:52 PM »

Are you assuming eqaul pilot ability? Most often it is not, and its the pilot that wins the engagement not the plane.

The aircraft are fairly similar in ability, but the sustained turn advantage goes to the spitty (but all but equal with flaps out). But from my testing, HTCs charts, and Gonzo's little app http://www.gonzoville.com/charts/index.php
The La-7 holds some adavantages - for example speed (quite a bit) , high-speed acceleration, climb without WEP (under 7k), firing time, it also has 3 nose-mounted cannons (no convergence issues).

I wouldnt assume the La-7 is done for by any stretch. The biggest determinant would be pilot ability. If you take that out (can you practically??) then if it turned into a series of slow speed turns and vert manuevers the spit would probably eventually win if the La didnt extend. But thats the La playing away from its strengths into the spits.
If you took the other approach and the La played to its strengths of staying very fast, staying low, and using a series of attack (and i dont necessarily mean HO) extend, repeat style of fighting, then you should be able to wear the spit down and kill it. Use your speed to zoom higher (either out of range or roping) and reverse back keeping the spit turning as you put the pressure on him to keep turning hard (his strength) to chase you.

Or you could mix it up, faint by doing a few attack-and-extends, but on the third or so, lead turn and go for the jugular and catch the spit out, he may not expect the La to turn so aggressively. Sometimes it works...

But hey, im no La7 pilot. They're no challenge to me.

YUCCA · « **Reply #3 on:** June 25, 2006, 10:26:15 PM »

aint nothing to it, but to do it

Wadke · « **Reply #4 on:** June 25, 2006, 11:31:26 PM »

Fly a hellcat

Simaril · « **Reply #5 on:** June 26, 2006, 09:16:55 AM »

I dont fly the La7 -- my question was really about HOW to benefit from a power advantage, without bore-n-zoom.

It'd be the same if we were talking about a SPit VIII vs the Hurri2: one accelerates and climbs better, the other can turn/loop inside....

Is the power plane fated to BnZ?

Patches1 · « **Reply #6 on:** June 26, 2006, 11:14:58 AM »

If I understand your question correctly, Simiril, you would like to know how an Energy Fighter (like an F4U) can defeat an aircraft that is primarily known for its turn characteristics (like an A6M, or Spit V) utilizing the energy fighter's power (I'm not quite clear what you mean here, but, I'll assume you are talking engine power) without having to extend (a great distance) to regain an energy advantage? I am also assuming that you are in a 1 vs 1 engagement.

In my opinion, the co-energy merge advantage goes to the turning aircraft at the start. Why? If the energy aircraft begins a turning match against a turning aircraft, the energy aircraft begins to give up angles...and that is ok... providing the energy fighter's plan is to give up the initial angles in order to lure the turn fighter into an energy fight and utilizes his aircraft's engine power to stay just out of snapshot range while extending (yet keeping the turn fighter interested enough to follow) to build up sufficient energy to take the fight verticle and negate the turning aircraft's flat turning advantage against his energy advantage in the verticle.

That is aircraft vs. aircraft, energy vs. turner....so to speak... F4U vs A6M, P-51 vs F4U, P-47 vs P-51 or F4U...FW-190D vs F4U...Me109 series vs Spitfires or P-38s...lots of options. Know your aircraft at the merge...are you a turner...or an energy aircraft?

BnZ? Any aircraft (in my opinion) is capable of BnZ tactics, if you take the time to climb, get an altitude advantage, and have good SA (Situational Awareness).

Pilot vs. Pilot...(see YUCCA's reply)...know your aircraft...have high Situational Awareness...make a mistake...you will die.

Just my thoughts.

toon · « **Reply #7 on:** June 26, 2006, 11:37:36 AM »

ever seen baitbug in a la?yucca in his jug? making spit pilots cry rivers.

bozon · « **Reply #8 on:** June 26, 2006, 12:52:18 PM »

Turn fighting, E fighting, BnZ... are just approaches to how to fight. Just because his plane is believed to be a better turner does not mean you can't out-turn him by using better ACM and executing them better. It does mean that you'd have to defeat the other pilot - not his plane, so don't lock yourself in these conceptions.

A smart pilot (not just a good pilot) will also use his plane strengths and not relay just on his superior ACM skills to win. Here, the planes do factor in. La7 vs. Spit VIII means that the La driver will want to keep the fight at high speeds. The instantaneous turn of the La7 is just as good or better than the spits and it can definitly allow for some knife fighting till the speed runs out. If he gets into a slow round and round contest, he should recognize the situation early and leave at high speed dive extend and start again (no need to leave the sector though...).

La7 is so faster than the spit that you can allow youself to try anything and still be able to get away if it doesn't work. Who knows? You might be suprised and find out you're simply the better pilot and kill him in his own game.

Patches1 · « **Reply #9 on:** June 26, 2006, 02:13:24 PM »

Simiril....

Forget LA7 vs Spit VIII, or any other matchup, specifically.

If I understood you, your question was about energy fighters vs turn fighters, co-energy at the merge.

I set out some examples of co-energy fighters at the merge. YOU must determine the turn capablities and energy capabilities of the aircraft as YOU meet them at the merge, flying the aircraft of your choice, and their relative energy states.

Perhaps you are confused as to which aircraft are considered turn aircraft, energy fighters, and BnZ aircraft?

All aircraft are "energy fighters", "turn fighters", "BnZ" fighters at the merge when Co-Energy!

I fielded your question as a generic question...energy vs turn....not LA7 against everything else.

Spatula · « **Reply #10 on:** June 26, 2006, 03:52:20 PM »

I think its worth making the point that 'turn-ability' is a confused term as well. what most people consider to be 'good turners' are in fact low wing-loaded and have a SUSTAINED turn advantage - note: not necessarily an instantaneous or high-speed turn advantage.
The point im making is that different a/c have different turning capabilities depending on the speed they enter the turn at. The La would have the turn advantage at high speeds, the spit at lower speeds. If the La kept the turning up he will give up his high speed and his high speed turn advantage.

Same goes for acceleration. Some a/c are good at slow-speed acceleration, others a high speed aceleration.

The point is: know your a/c and your enemies capabilities under all conditions (they are not static), use you advantages where and when you can against your opponents weaknesses.

Murdr · « **Reply #11 on:** June 26, 2006, 09:18:35 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by bozon
Turn fighting, E fighting, BnZ... are just approaches to how to fight. Just because his plane is believed to be a better turner does not mean you can't out-turn him by using better ACM and executing them better....

Here, the planes do factor in. La7 vs. Spit VIII means that the La driver will want to keep the fight at high speeds. The instantaneous turn of the La7 is just as good or better than the spits and it can definitly allow for some knife fighting till the speed runs out. If he gets into a slow round and round contest, he should recognize the situation early and leave at high speed dive extend and start again (no need to leave the sector though...).

Quote

Originally posted by Patches1
In my opinion, the co-energy merge advantage goes to the turning aircraft at the start. Why? If the energy aircraft begins a turning match against a turning aircraft, the energy aircraft begins to give up angles...and that is ok... providing the energy fighter's plan is to give up the initial angles in order to lure the turn fighter into an energy fight and utilizes his aircraft's engine power to stay just out of snapshot range while extending (yet keeping the turn fighter interested enough to follow) to build up sufficient energy to take the fight verticle and negate the turning aircraft's flat turning advantage against his energy advantage in the verticle.

Good, I waited long enough for others to type my answer for me. You can do the unexpected and try to beat them at their planes strong suit.

Or you can build an E advantage while at the same time masking how much you are really building by managing speed and separation to keep the turn fighter interested.

Either tactic can be seen repeatedly in my posted films.

toon · « **Reply #12 on:** June 27, 2006, 09:37:26 AM »

bozon, that must have been you last nite in la7. i was in spit9 over a knight field and what you descibed is EXACTLY what happened.started out fast went slow right turns and when i started to get inside he bugged out.whoever it was ... perfect.

bozon · « **Reply #13 on:** June 27, 2006, 12:05:10 PM »

Quote

bozon, that must have been you last nite in la7.

I don't think I've touched the La7 in the last 3 years...
I use a Jug to do my turn fighting

Bozon

TexMurphy · « **Reply #14 on:** June 28, 2006, 10:33:12 AM »

The faster plane always has the advantage because the faster plane can choose to engage and disengage at will.

Truth with modification but generaly true if you know when to disengage.

E fight him and have a alt limmit on how low you will dance with him. If you get close to that limmit disengage.

If you feel he is getting a E advantage on you, disengage.

Else stay in the E fight.

You want him to flat turn. As soon as he flat turns the fight is won if you keep using your vertical manouvers to set up a snapshot. He has absolutely now where to go and wount be able to get in gun solution on you.

One thing that helps against tight turners is to give your opening immelman a slight tilt to either the right or left. This allows you to win vertical separation for the 2nd merge as well.

If the enemy is a poor diver you might wana lure him into a dive and barrell roll in a reverse on him.

Tex