Author Topic: Concerns of hacking in WBIII or other 'User Based' sims (Read 444 times)

Ripsnort · « **on:** February 02, 2001, 01:27:00 PM »

As alot know, Kent puts out a very nice Sitrep weekly on AGW. Each week, he has at least 1 player (this week it was 2) that was 'banned for life because of cheating'...now, I might be making incorrect assumptions, but I would venture to guess that this cheating has to do with altering the code in such a way that it gives the individual a hand up while flying online.

So, now WBIII is going to basically turn the FM over to the users...whats to stop a severe upward trend in hacking?

This has got me concerned,as I'm looking forward to WBIII, and even Sicks new Korea era Flightsim, however, if they intend to turn over FM data to users, it gets me concerned...

Whats your take on this?

Educate me if I am in error here..

Kieren · « **Reply #1 on:** February 02, 2001, 02:05:00 PM »

I don't follow WBIII anymore, as I have lost interest in the project, but from a theoretical standpoint there are ways to approach your question:

Do the users get the actual fm code, or only the graphics?
Assuming they do get to access the code, what is done to check the accuracy of the code?
Who touches the code last before it becomes publicly available?
What online checks prevent users from using a "customized" fm?

Westy · « **Reply #2 on:** February 02, 2001, 02:24:00 PM »

"Educate me if I am in error here.."

I don't believe you are.

Hacking is a major problem and concern at palces where the FM is not given out. I can only imagine the sudden rise in hackers where it is <cough> open.

-Westy

Ripsnort · « **Reply #3 on:** February 02, 2001, 02:31:00 PM »

Well, that's where my primary concern is...however, on second thought, if they have safeguards in place to detect hacking now, I assume they'll have the ability to identify it in the future? I don't know...

Dinger · « **Reply #4 on:** February 02, 2001, 02:57:00 PM »

I don't think WB3 is turning the FM over to the users (I thought it was just the 3-d models but I could be wrong), and I don't think most "Cheaters" are those fiddling with the FM.

All these programs will have a variety of measures in place to ensure the integrity of the code; these will include monitoring the size and composition of the official files, as well as (perhaps) snooping in on your connection, and who knows what else they can think of. A "cheat" could just be someone who had a corrupted graphics file (so iEN would warn people to reinstall WB or be booted), it could be someone whose program was modified to run on an illegal server, or it could be someone desiring to get an edge (designing a transparent cockpit, for example). The only sensible approach to take is one of zero tolerance: get rid of them for good.

I don't think "Custom FM cheating" is ever going to be a serious problem. In theory, the host will check bits of your FM just like the rest of the program. If something isn't jake, you're in trouble. As for sick's proposed "open-fm system", read carefully what's being said. Their servers will only accept authorized flight models: you couldn't just go and slap 2000 rpm 75mm cannons with 2000 fps muzzle velocity in there and expect any server to let you in. So the cheater will have to do what the cheater has to do in every other game: bypass part of the program (the authentification routine); this alteration will force the cheater to try to protect against the host controls, whose function should be unknown, and the results of failing this control should be the termination of the account.
Anyway making the data in a flight model publicly available might make it easier to insert a bogus plane into the game, but it'll still be easier to hack the program in other ways.

SageFIN · « **Reply #5 on:** February 03, 2001, 05:29:00 AM »

Well even if they did let the FM in the open (which AFAIK they are not doing) it wouldn't probably lead to any sudden increase in cheating if they have any cheking and authethication in place at all.

If they have, it would still require some knowhow to cheat. I would think that it would probably not even involve hacking the FM at all rather that looking through the code for the most important, the packet specs, and then proceeding from there.

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SageFIN

"I think I´ll believe in Gosh instead of God. If you don´t
believe in Gosh too, you´ll be darned to heck."
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Boroda · « **Reply #6 on:** February 03, 2001, 01:25:00 PM »

Well, let me make some things clear...

Fist: FM cheating is very easy to discover. iEN has all means to check the CRC of the file containing the FM parameters.

Gunnery cheating is another problem, but it can also be discovered.

AFAIK they DO LET the people with hacked FM play, but only send them a warning message. On Russian server people with tampered vital files are simply not let to take off.

The funniest thing about Iceman's sitreps is that iEN now bans players for mentioning "freehost" on the radio.

As I already said - Russian server gets many people "hooked" onto WB, and they sign on at iEN. Many people use Russian server to get to iEN (the REAL WB!) with enough training to survive and not to pay for being killed in every sortie. I think that banning people who already pay for flat rate is a nonsence.

JFYI: AH is NOT being hacked by Russians. At least by the Russian FH team. HT and his team develop their sim and generaly are nice and reasonable people.

Sorry for turning the subject this way...

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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS

jedi · « **Reply #7 on:** February 03, 2001, 07:46:00 PM »

They've already said numerous times that the FM will not be part of the Player Development Team's input. Maps, skins, ground objects, 3D airplanes, sounds, etc, but NO FM access.

I guess they could change their mind, but I don't see it happening as long as HS is there. IMO there's no reason why a SMALL team of "qualified," trustworthy community members couldn't do some flight modeling as well, but that's iEN's call I guess. They've been burned by some scumbags, and that's probably ruined it for the rest of us.

As for "hackability," ANY sim can be hacked. WB was hacked before, and AH is being hacked now, you can bet on it. Probably, most of the hackers here are being caught and quietly ousted, but the weak link appears to be NOT the player's FE, which gets checked, but the data stream itself, which may or may not be. That's how WB was hacked: gun data being tampered with to boost lethality.

Player-submitted additions only gum up the works if it's unrestricted, unmonitored, and not quality-controlled, i.e. the Microshaft Method

There was a lot of trepidation about even allowing TERRAIN to be produced by players, but that's working OK, isn't it?

Ripsnort · « **Reply #8 on:** February 05, 2001, 07:50:00 AM »

Quote

"They've already said numerous times that the FM will not be part of the Player Development Team's input. Maps, skins, ground objects, 3D airplanes, sounds, etc, but NO FM access."

Ahh, whew! THanks for clarifying that, for some reason I thought they were opening up Pandora's box with FM too!

Daff · « **Reply #9 on:** February 05, 2001, 01:23:00 PM »

"The funniest thing about Iceman's sitreps is that iEN now bans players for mentioning "freehost" on the radio."

Good to see you still drink too much, Boroda.

Daff