Author Topic: The General's Report  (Read 547 times)

Offline Gunthr

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The General's Report
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2007, 03:34:31 AM »
Quote
Abu Ghraib is old news...


naaaah,  this will be used again and again by our terrorist enemies and by the American liberal politcal party - for their respective political purposes, even though the persons responsible have been prosecuted and sentenced by American justice.

meanwhile, neither of these entities would like to focus on Islamist torturers - publicity about the truley hideous nature of real torture doesn't do anything to further either of their interests....
« Last Edit: June 19, 2007, 03:36:35 AM by Gunthr »
"When I speak I put on a mask. When I act, I am forced to take it off."  - Helvetius 18th Century

Offline SirLoin

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« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2007, 04:19:01 AM »
Good read..

I especially feel sympathy for General Taguba...All he was asked to do was get close to the truth...an he ended up flying to close to the sun.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2007, 04:22:22 AM by SirLoin »
**JOKER'S JOKERS**

Offline Charon

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« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2007, 08:01:43 AM »
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naaaah, this will be used again and again by our terrorist enemies and by the American liberal politcal party - for their respective political purposes, even though the persons responsible have been prosecuted and sentenced by American justice.

meanwhile, neither of these entities would like to focus on Islamist torturers - publicity about the truly hideous nature of real torture doesn't do anything to further either of their interests....


The problem is, as you point out, in 4th Generation warfare an incident like Abu Ghraib is equal to losing an offensive or having the defensive line break in conventional warfare. Any positive returns generated (and apparently there were not all that many) were far outweighed by the negatives. Apparently there weren't that many actual "insurgents" in the prison, and such methods traditionally have poor returns for the effort even if the subject is authentic (unlike "21" on TV). It's better to have Joe civilian drop the dime on the bad guys operating in his neighborhood because he is one with the cause.

It makes our enemies far stronger. It allows them to recruit. It weakens any popular support among the population. It means they will tend to fight to the death rather than be captured -- more so than otherwise. It impacts support among our friends internationally and it impacts political support at home. Functionally, it shows poor military discipline and leadership. It shows in one slice of how poorly prepared we are to fight and win this type of struggle. The Fulda Gap ceased to be important a decade or more ago, but we never transitioned.

This was avoidable. What Al Queda does to its prisoners is immeterial (though civilian bombings start to become important). Rightly or wrongly we are the invaders, the outsiders, the alternative. It's what we do that matters to these people. We're don't have to win the hearts and minds of Fox TV viewers.

Charon
« Last Edit: June 19, 2007, 08:08:15 AM by Charon »

Offline Gunthr

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The General's Report
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2007, 08:39:46 AM »
Charon, i don't disagree at all with your main idea.   Abu Ghraib turned out to work against us... it was a symbol of evil even before we got there.  I question some of the judgement and leadership surrounding that issue, including the stupidity of allowing cameras inside.  

my point, and the point others here are trying to make, is that in 4th Gen Wartime, our country has to stick together and speak externally with one voice, instead of siezing on every mistake or foul up and publisizing it world wide as loudly as possible to make the current administration look bad, the way the then out-of-power democrat party has done - for political gain.  This is not to say that the Abu Ghraib issues should not be addressed.

4th Generation war is still war, with American lives at stake.  that hasn't changed, but it didn't seem to mean much to democrat politicians tripping all over themselves to be the first to trumpet Abu Ghraib world wide to make as much trouble as possible to shame Bush and America and pave their way back into power - the aide and comfort to the enemy was coincidental I'm sure.

real torture, the kind used by the islamists - the nightmare stuff that results in agony, permanent injuries and death, is germain to my point because the silence about it from the very same trumpeters of Abu Ghraib illustrates the self-serving cynacism of the American liberal politicians and the islamists.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2007, 08:50:55 AM by Gunthr »
"When I speak I put on a mask. When I act, I am forced to take it off."  - Helvetius 18th Century

Offline Elfie

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« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2007, 01:39:31 PM »
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A very important piece to this story, I would think, is knowing what has become of the individuals that were charged with criminal acts at Abu Ghraib.

Has our system reacted in a punitive manner to those guilty of crimes at Abu Ghraib?


Those that were charged were all low ranking enlisted personnel. Those that gave the orders, are left unscathed so far. So the answer to your question is both yes and no.
Corkyjr on country jumping:
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Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2007, 02:20:31 PM »
For comparison, when Saddam ran the prison...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3747005.stm

Offline Sandman

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« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2007, 03:00:53 PM »
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
For comparison, when Saddam ran the prison...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3747005.stm


Not relevant.
sand

Offline DoctorYO

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« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2007, 03:02:08 PM »
Hearing Gunthr preaching 4th gen is like some personification of hypocrisy.

at least evolution is alive and well..



DoctorYo

Offline crockett

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« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2007, 03:04:32 PM »
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Originally posted by john9001
does the report cover what the al qaeda does to their prisoners? If not, we don't want to hear about your "abuses".


Are we al Qaeda?

Why would you want to compare or put our country in the same league as a terrorist group.
"strafing"

Offline rpm

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« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2007, 03:04:50 PM »
He has to do his shuck and jive Sandman. Otherwise, he would have to admit you're right.
My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives.
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Offline crockett

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The General's Report
« Reply #25 on: June 19, 2007, 03:08:40 PM »
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Originally posted by Elfie

Something I find very disturbing is that General Taguba was only authorized to investigate the soldiers at Abu Ghraib prison and not any further up the chain of command.

 


Of course not.. We all know where the guilt lies but that's what pawns are for. In this case our great leaders whom love to say they support our troops, sure as hell don't mind feeding the troops to the meat grinder if it's their bellybutton on the line.
"strafing"

Offline Sandman

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The General's Report
« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2007, 03:10:14 PM »
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Originally posted by rpm
He has to do his shuck and jive Sandman. Otherwise, he would have to admit you're right.


Ya know... **** it. If we're going to live by the standards of other less developed countries, let's do it all the way. Start the conscription now. Annex whatever country we want and take whatever resources we need. We'll either be victorious or destroy the planet in the attempt. Become the empire to end all empires.
sand