Re: Man invents water powered wielding torch :O

[Holden McGroin]

A flame that is hot enough to burn steel and is hot enough to boil water is hot enough to burn me.

All some automotive company needs to do is market a water powered Hydroxy car, and they would immediately corner the transportation market.  It kind of telling when you see that this has not been done.

What do they say about something that is too good to be true?

[FrodeMk3]

Did you play the video. Looks real enough, He torches the steel ball then puts his fingers in the flame.

Because that's all we see. He does not open up his machine to let us look inside, does he?

Things like this and the 'hydroxy' threads are why science shouldn't be saddled with distractions like religion in the classroom.  It's hard enough getting the basics to sink in as is, as these threads seem to indicate.

First, the title is inaccurate, it's not powered by anything except the electrical mains.  It's using electricity to crack the water, then burning the gas.  The energy put into it is an order of magnitude higher than the energy of the burning hydrogen and oxygen.  Net loss.  This is a neat trick, but that's all it is.

It's as good an explanation as any. I don't know if this thing will consume less net electricity than, say, a plasma-cutter, but as it is used on the market, time will tell.

[CAP1]

Because that's all we see. He does not open up his machine to let us look inside, does he?

It's as good an explanation as any. I don't know if this thing will consume less net electricity than, say, a plasma-cutter, but as it is used on the market, time will tell.

i'm not sure about the torch, but in the case of the cars being boosted by this it seems somewhat reasonable. no one is saying it is an end-all/cure all. it's being used to assist the engine. to help it burn more effeciently. the setup i've been looking at takes 20 amps. the alternator will not run constantly. the 20 amps will be drawn from the battery, and when the voltage drope below a pre-determined point, the alt turns on, and re-charges it. just as it does normally. i also believe that the alternator takes only 5 horsepower...or less when it's charging. so now, if the hydroxy gas is being added, it's going to obviously add some power simply by the fact that it increases the engines efficiency. as long as it adds at least what it takes out, we're ok.
 the hydroxy gas is put in there to help make a better flame front inside the engine. don;t forget that there are not explosions inside the cylinder, but rather flame fronts. so if we put something like this hydroxy gas in the mix, then we can inject less fuel, thus getting better mileage.

at least that's wht makes sense to my tired mind right now

<<S>>

[Chairboy]

Pseudoscience is seductive.  It's the things that sound 'right' to the tired mind, it's the world working the way your soul feels it SHOULD work....

...but the universe feels no compunction to meet you half way.

[CAP1]

Pseudoscience is seductive.  It's the things that sound 'right' to the tired mind, it's the world working the way your soul feels it SHOULD work....

...but the universe feels no compunction to meet you half way.

well, here's what's gonna end up being my test. mom drives from nj to florida this time every year. she needs me to do some work on her before she goes. i think i'm gonna install this setup on her car before she leaves, and not tell her about it. this way, she'll drive the same as she always does. slow. agonizingly slow. she actually does 55 where that's the speed limit. but on the plus side, she's anal about keeping track of her mileage. still has records from last years trip. that should be somewhat telling i think. it should cost me less than $100 i think to find out, and i think it's worth the gamble.

<<S>>

[Chairboy]

Go for it.  Be just as prepared to accept a negative result as a positive one, or else it isn't science.

[CAP1]

Go for it.  Be just as prepared to accept a negative result as a positive one, or else it isn't science.

ALWAYS........ if she reports better mileage, then it comes in here. if she reports the same, or less, then it still comes in here.........and if it works, there'll be one on everything i own!

[Holden McGroin]

as long as it adds at least what it takes out, we're ok.

There's the rub.  That pesky 2nd law says we can't get more energy out of the water than we put into it, it is in fact a net loss.  It also says that we have a net loss changing rotational energy into the electricity with the alternator.  And of course there is a 30% heat efficiency in the engine changing fuel to the rotational energy, and that's in a terrifically effieceint engine.

So the only straw at which we can grasp is if the engine gains efficiency and if the efficiency pays for the electricity required for the manufacture of the Oxy-Hydrogen gas.

Now there is a system called a six stroke engine, which actually has some promise.  Instead of losing 1/3 of the heat from the engine to the cooling system, the intake-compression-power-exhaust cycle adds a steam cycle. It closes the valves at top dead center and injects a squirt of water into the cylinder, which flashes to steam.  The steam expansion forces the piston down and gains a power stroke while cooling the engine.  The piston them moves up expelling the steam, and then the intake for the combustion 4 stroke begins.

[FrodeMk3]

There's the rub.  That pesky 2nd law says we can't get more energy out of the water than we put into it, it is in fact a net loss.  It also says that we have a net loss changing rotational energy into the electricity with the alternator.  And of course there is a 30% heat efficiency in the engine changing fuel to the rotational energy, and that's in a terrifically effieceint engine.

So the only straw at which we can grasp is if the engine gains efficiency and if the efficiency pays for the electricity required for the manufacture of the Oxy-Hydrogen gas.

Now there is a system called a six stroke engine, which actually has some promise.  Instead of losing 1/3 of the heat from the engine to the cooling system, the intake-compression-power-exhaust cycle adds a steam cycle. It closes the valves at top dead center and injects a squirt of water into the cylinder, which flashes to steam.  The steam expansion forces the piston down and gains a power stroke while cooling the engine.  The piston them moves up expelling the steam, and then the intake for the combustion 4 stroke begins.

That would interesting; I'd like to see how they keep any condensed water out of the engine oil, though.

[FrodeMk3]

i'm not sure about the torch, but in the case of the cars being boosted by this it seems somewhat reasonable. no one is saying it is an end-all/cure all. it's being used to assist the engine. to help it burn more effeciently. the setup i've been looking at takes 20 amps. the alternator will not run constantly. the 20 amps will be drawn from the battery, and when the voltage drope below a pre-determined point, the alt turns on, and re-charges it. just as it does normally. i also believe that the alternator takes only 5 horsepower...or less when it's charging. so now, if the hydroxy gas is being added, it's going to obviously add some power simply by the fact that it increases the engines efficiency. as long as it adds at least what it takes out, we're ok.
 the hydroxy gas is put in there to help make a better flame front inside the engine. don;t forget that there are not explosions inside the cylinder, but rather flame fronts. so if we put something like this hydroxy gas in the mix, then we can inject less fuel, thus getting better mileage.

at least that's wht makes sense to my tired mind right now



<<S>>

Not sure about my chemistry, but from what you've said, Cap, You're talking about adding Hydrogen to the air/gasoline mix inside the cylinder? The only way you'll really see an increase in gas mileage, is if the Hydroxy gas is actually substituted for gasoline, thereby decreasing actual gasoline usage. Improving flame propagation with the same gasoline charge in the cylinder might increase HP delivered per stroke, allowing lighter throttle usage, but that is the only real gain I see. The engine will have an increased air demand, I suspect, if this is the case.

[Wolf14]

To me, water is like fossil fuels in a sense that there isnt an endless supply. Fresh water in any case. I dont think water is a good substitute for fossil fuels. I need water to live. I can walk or pedal my legs to move my rear somewhere.

[Jackal1]

You can buy the device from the manufacturer's site for $7000.

 
I`ll wait for the movie.

[CAP1]

Not sure about my chemistry, but from what you've said, Cap, You're talking about adding Hydrogen to the air/gasoline mix inside the cylinder? The only way you'll really see an increase in gas mileage, is if the Hydroxy gas is actually substituted for gasoline, thereby decreasing actual gasoline usage. Improving flame propagation with the same gasoline charge in the cylinder might increase HP delivered per stroke, allowing lighter throttle usage, but that is the only real gain I see. The engine will have an increased air demand, I suspect, if this is the case.

that's what they're talking about. the hdroxy gas is hydrogen and oxygen i believe. with these added, you can cut back on the amount of fuel injected.
again, i could be wrong though.....