Author Topic: Just curious.  (Read 3961 times)

Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: Just curious.
« Reply #105 on: October 28, 2008, 02:32:28 PM »
The Russian's were responsible for the demise of the majority of German forces but to state that they were the biggest factor in the out come of WW2 is a farce.

This is an interesting sentence.  On the one hand agreeing that Russia destroyed the majority of German forces and on the other denying that they did the most to defeat Germany.  I don't think it's a contradiction, but there is tension there.  Let's start a new topic in the O'Club.
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Offline Stoliman

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Re: Just curious.
« Reply #106 on: October 28, 2008, 03:31:50 PM »
I was more looking for a source to this statement:

Quote
Little is known about a P-47 squadron that's sole purpose was to harass the civilians. All animals were shot, horses, dogs. Farmers were strafed in their fields civilians on the street were strafed. The planes were minus national markings as well.
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Offline dtango

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Re: Just curious.
« Reply #107 on: October 28, 2008, 03:39:18 PM »
I was more looking for a source to this statement:


Ah, I understand.  I had you confused with bigplay :).  My apologies.  Personally I have the same question.

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Offline BigPlay

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Re: Just curious.
« Reply #108 on: October 28, 2008, 03:48:11 PM »
We were talking about which aircraft  contributed the most to the demise of Germany. You said the Yak and IL2. I did state that the Russians did destroy most of the ground forces but only managed to destroy around 50% of German aircraft. Considering that most  of the Luftwaffe was stationed against the Russians you would think the % would have been higher. I would think that the B-17 and the B24 had to do more to winning the war than any other aircraft.

The airwar in Russia was more of a tactical airwar. Mainly in support of  battlefield conflicts. The American's involvement was more strategical and struck at the core of the German war machine. Stopping ones ability to wage war is more important than winning battles. Besides...... if you consider what Russia lost in terms of man and machine then I believe the Germans gave the Russians a trouncing. So what I guess I'm saying here is I do not believe that the Yak or IL2 did little more for the overall war effort than to help win battles.

Offline BigPlay

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Re: Just curious.
« Reply #109 on: October 28, 2008, 03:53:25 PM »
I was more looking for a source to this statement:


 I sat in on a symposium conducted by Urban (Ben) Drew. He flew with the *th in P-51's and believe he commanded a squadron. He indicated that there was such a squadron that he had first hand knowledge of it . My mother was a kid in Germany during WW2 and she also said American fighter planes shot up all the cattle, horses even dogs, people were strafed on the streets. They thought that in killing every living animal that they would assist in starving Germany, which it did.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2008, 03:55:39 PM by BigPlay »

Offline Stoliman

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Re: Just curious.
« Reply #110 on: October 28, 2008, 10:21:43 PM »
Can you provide any documentation other than "so I heard"? 

I have no doubt civilians and animals were strafed.  I would question if civilians were targeted specifically as matter of dictated policy/tactics, particularly since the "no markings" aircraft piece was thrown in.

I of course could be wrong, it was a different era.  But I would like to some some independent corroborating evidence.
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Offline BigPlay

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Re: Just curious.
« Reply #111 on: October 29, 2008, 11:19:17 AM »
Ben Drew may have written a book that included what I mentioned. He is still alive in a retirement home in San Diego. I sell aviation art and have had quite a few aces sit in my booth selling there books at air shows. Bud Anderson, Bob Goble, Herkey Green. Ben was never in my booth other than to just say hello. A friend of mine held a number of symposiums over the years with some great aces so I got to hear some great stories and ask some questions that aren't in any book. Just bombing cities that had no strategic importance indicates that civilians were targeted.

Offline Guppy35

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Re: Just curious.
« Reply #112 on: October 29, 2008, 01:10:57 PM »
Ben Drew may have written a book that included what I mentioned. He is still alive in a retirement home in San Diego. I sell aviation art and have had quite a few aces sit in my booth selling there books at air shows. Bud Anderson, Bob Goble, Herkey Green. Ben was never in my booth other than to just say hello. A friend of mine held a number of symposiums over the years with some great aces so I got to hear some great stories and ask some questions that aren't in any book. Just bombing cities that had no strategic importance indicates that civilians were targeted.

Thats an entirely different claim then saying fighters were strafing civillians, animals etc as policy.  I don't think that anyone is going to dispute that area bombing took place.  Seems to me it started with Guernica, Spain by those 111s that everyone wants to have modeled in AH.
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Offline BigPlay

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Re: Just curious.
« Reply #113 on: October 29, 2008, 01:26:05 PM »
Well..... all I can say is that is what Ben Drew said and my own mother said she saw civilians and animals strafed.

Offline Simaril

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Re: Just curious.
« Reply #114 on: October 29, 2008, 01:33:58 PM »
Interesting book named Dresden looked at similar claims that have become "what everybody knows" in that part of Germany. Historically these reports were noticed by the occupying Soviets and played up for political reasons after the war, according to the book's author.

The author also told of a German, a Dresdener, who did down-to-the-individual-element research on the Dresden firebombing and escorts. After correlating eyewitness accounts with mission reports and flight paths, his conclusion was that the strafing of civilians described by first person witnesses was likely correlated with on the deck dogfights described in both German and American AARs. In other words, the civilians were on the ground fleeing the fires, the planes were down low and shooting, the bullets hit the ground near the civilians...but the actual ATTACK was air to air fighting. Not surprising that target planes flying at 250+ mph, zipping at treetop levels, might be out of visual range of civilians on the ground.

This German researcher was vilified by the population of Dresden, who by that time (late 80s as I recall) had such an ingrained cultural belief in the events that the presentation of data couldn't change their opinions.

BTW, knowing contemporaneaous reports about difficulties hitting bridges, trains, convoys -- is it really credible to think strafing individual farm animals in family sized fields was policy? It seems to me far more likely that what looked like deliberate strafing was by and large collateral damage from other stuff going on beyond visual range of ground observers.

Not to say that there may have been the odd pilot who took "target of opportunity" to ridiculous, bovine slaughtering extremes....but seems almost silly to think that tactical doctrine would have P51 pilots use limited 50cals on cows when there were literally hours of return flight remaining in mission, eh?
« Last Edit: October 29, 2008, 01:40:39 PM by Simaril »
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Offline BigPlay

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Re: Just curious.
« Reply #115 on: October 29, 2008, 02:03:53 PM »
From what Ben Drew said is that he was stationed at a field in England where a squadron of P-47's were engaged in this type of ground warfare. I never said P-51's were doing this

Offline Guppy35

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Re: Just curious.
« Reply #116 on: October 29, 2008, 05:21:00 PM »
There was a group of Jugs that was put together to test out ground attack doctrine called "Bill's Buzz Boys" lead by Glen Duncan if I remember right. It had 16 volunteer pilots, 4 each from the 353rd, 359th, 361st and 259th Fighter Groups.  Duncan of the 353rd lead the group and it was named for 8th FC General Bill Kepner.  Their main job was to develop tactics for strafing airfields. 

Urban Drew was with the 361st FG but did not participate with Bill's Buzz Boys that I know of.  This took place in Mid March 1944.   All 8th AF fighter groups ended up going after the Luftwaffe "in the air and on the ground' after this

It was not put together to strafe civillians.  No doubt there were cars, trucks, trains, buildings etc that were strafed that had civillians in them.  That tends to go with total war.  But it was not a 'doctrine' of the 8th FC to go after civillians this way.
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Offline BigPlay

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Re: Just curious.
« Reply #117 on: October 29, 2008, 05:29:50 PM »
There was a group of Jugs that was put together to test out ground attack doctrine called "Bill's Buzz Boys" lead by Glen Duncan if I remember right. It had 16 volunteer pilots, 4 each from the 353rd, 359th, 361st and 259th Fighter Groups.  Duncan of the 353rd lead the group and it was named for 8th FC General Bill Kepner.  Their main job was to develop tactics for strafing airfields. 

Urban Drew was with the 361st FG but did not participate with Bill's Buzz Boys that I know of.  This took place in Mid March 1944.   All 8th AF fighter groups ended up going after the Luftwaffe "in the air and on the ground' after this

It was not put together to strafe civillians.  No doubt there were cars, trucks, trains, buildings etc that were strafed that had civillians in them.  That tends to go with total war.  But it was not a 'doctrine' of the 8th FC to go after civillians this way.

Again that is what Ben Drewtold me. He said they were void of national markings as well. I have a friend that vivsts Ben from time to time . I will ask him to get more info from Ben.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2008, 05:31:23 PM by BigPlay »