What's a "rope, fake rope?".

[boomerlu]

I want to thank everybody who replied in this thread, especially you guys with films. I know I didn't originate it, but the advice here has breathed some new life into my flying.

[Agent360]

I would like to point out that the original subject was what is a "fake" rope. The rescent posts have described and shown how to do a successful real rope.

I want to make sure that everyone understands what I meant by a "fake" rope.

If you do not get the timing right then the rope does not work.

Originally I described this move in response to Mtman's thread on how to kill zeeks in a faster plane that can not turn with a zeek.

The point was that a zeek can spot the rope and will just turn out flat or dive away ruining your attempt to pull a real rope.

My fake rope is a way to KEEP the zeek nose up and NOT DIVING away giving me time to maneuver nose down and catch the zeek BEFORE he can get away and before he can make a hard break turn out of guns.

I called if fake because it starts out like a real rope but transitions into something different. The part that is real is the verticle pull to bring the zeek up behind. The fake part is to present a situation where it appears to the zeek I DO NOT Have anough energy to pull the real rope off, therefor keeping the zeek baited to nose up.

Even if I did in fact have enough energy does not matter because he will just deny my rope if he spots it. The whole point is to fool the zeek into a situation where he CAN NOT get away and allow me time to close for guns.

A real rope ends up with either a pure rope kill or total miss and has a lot of oppurtunity to screw it up.

A fake rope allows more controlled maneuvering and use of angles at slower speeds.

It is very difficult to kill superior turning planes in faster non turning planes because they can easily dodge your Bz passes over and over and this take time you don't have. Further if you mess your pass up you can easily be caught by angles and killed. Zeeks may be slow but only if you stay fast. If you blow your BZ pass enough times and allow the zeek time to regain speed you will end up running if not outright blown up.

[boomerlu]

Sounds like a fake-failed rope - ie you fake not being able to pull it off. To make sure - you top out above your opponent but do a low G flat turn to preserve your energy and keep them nose up?

[mtnman]

Hi guys.
Noob question on terms.
Can you tell me what a rope is?  I heard one guy say "setting up a rope" and another say
"setting a fake rope".

Have been flying P47-D-11

Thanks

It looks to me like the original subject was "Can you tell me what a rope is" with some confusion over what a fake rope may be, and if/how it differs from a "real" rope.

I think we've all done a pretty good job of describing and showing a basic rope, and have even gone into some detail on some more complicated versions.

I must admit though, I either disagree or am confused by your (Agent's) version of a "fake" rope, because to me it looks like it's anything but a "fake" rope.  It just sounds like a more complex version, where you camoflage your E a bit to get him roped.  It doesn't sound any more "fake" than if I slowly bring my nose up enough so that the guy following me can't see the horizon anymore, before gradually increasing the climb angle so hopefully sucker him vertical before he realizes we're no longer in a shallow climb.  He thinks we're in a shallow climb, but he's roped.  If anything, it's a "fake shallow climb" not a "fake rope".

If the end result is him following you up into a stall, so you can reverse and shoot him as he wallows, isn't that a rope?  What's fake about it?  The beauty of a well-executed rope is that your opponent doesn't feel like he's really screwed, until he's really screwed.  "Fake" rope says to me "Looks like a rope, but isn't"- not, "Doesn't look like a rope, but is".  Fooling your opponent into getting himself roped, is roping him.

I'm also not in agreement that your opponent recognizing the rope and trying to dive away or stay level is a real problem.  For one, it means the set-up for a rope isn't so hot to begin with, if he recognizes the E-differential is so great that there's no way in heck he's gonna try to follow you up (or if his skill-level and SA warn him against it- nothing works as poorly as roping someone who knows what it is, and knows what you're attempting).  And, if the E-differential is so different, it also means I have several different options to kill the fella, and unless I just want to kill the guy by roping him for some reason, I'll just choose a different option.  Also, if the E-differential is that great to begin with, even if he gets roped, he's gonna be awful far below me when he stalls, which again, isn't such a hot set-up, IMO.  Further, what does it say about the skill level and SA of said pilot, if he's willing to go vertical and stall out so far below you?

So he dives away or stays level...  The premise here is that he's a slow plane, and I'm in a fast plane.  I just dive after him and shoot him, or force him to turn and I shoot him, or force him to turn and zoom past and up, to repeat (and he might even come up on the rope at that point)...  If he has enough seperation to turn HO on me as I dive in, A- we have that large E-differential, which got us here in the first place, and B- I still have lots of options.  Possibly the simplist is to not go past him, but rather pull my nose back up and try for a rope right then, since he's already displaying a willingness to go HO, which is pointing his nose up at me, and again, he has less E, and just blew a bunch of it reversing for the HO.  I don't even need to go up all that much, but just "loiter" a bit, waiting for him to stall.  Bang! He's roped (or he turns away, so I can shoot him in the back).

If he dives away and I chase him, bleeding some of my E and reducing our E-differential, the option to rope gets better IMO, because if he recognizes our E-states are closer, he'll hopefully be more tempted to follow me up as he turns and I zoom back up, thinking he'll get me at the top- Bang! He's roped!

The way the "fake rope" term is being used here, it looks to me like it's just going to cause unnecessary confusion. 

We might be best off saying "Here's what a basic rope is- but be careful, there are a whole lot of different ways to rope someone, without him realizing he's roped until it's too late.  They won't all be as obvious as this, and once you get fairly proficient at them you'll be able to play with some of those different varieties, and you should, because an experienced stick probably won't fall for the obvious ones"."

[onan]

Thanks guys for all the help.   

I've been following this thread for a couple of weeks now after my OP.
The information on and descriptions of "fake rope" vary a bit but it matters not.  What matters to me is I now know
what a "Rope" is and hopefully how to set, spot and deffend against one.
My next challenge is to get my turns at the top of the rope quicker and sweeter.  Spit8 is my ride lately
and been trying to get the "wing over" stall turn sorted.  Hard aint they!! Any tips?  Should I be doing this in this AC
or using a different type of stall turn.
Thanks again Fellas 

KlunK

[mtnman]

I just try to time it so I don't actually need to stall at the top, I prefer to still have enough speed to manuever over the top.  This also allows me to alter my position a bit, if I need to dodge a few shots, or if I want/need to turn it into more of a spiral climb.

Another option is to do like Agent mentions in one of his 109 help threads.  Go into the DA or TA, or a quiet corner of the MA if you want, and just practice zooming vertical.  Hold the nose vertical as long as possible, and when you do end up "losing it" practice recovering as quickly and smoothly as possible. 

That's going to teach you control on all three axi, and you may find it's easier/quicker to "go with" the plane when it wants to drop a wing and start to spin.  I like to go with it, and recover, better than to fight it.  I recover control and have the nose pointed where i want it quicker that way.

[CAP1]

I just try to time it so I don't actually need to stall at the top, I prefer to still have enough speed to manuever over the top.  This also allows me to alter my position a bit, if I need to dodge a few shots, or if I want/need to turn it into more of a spiral climb.

Another option is to do like Agent mentions in one of his 109 help threads.  Go into the DA or TA, or a quiet corner of the MA if you want, and just practice zooming vertical.  Hold the nose vertical as long as possible, and when you do end up "losing it" practice recovering as quickly and smoothly as possible. 

That's going to teach you control on all three axi, and you may find it's easier/quicker to "go with" the plane when it wants to drop a wing and start to spin.  I like to go with it, and recover, better than to fight it.  I recover control and have the nose pointed where i want it quicker that way.

was fighting pangea last night. he kept coming back in different aircraft. i'm starting to think that he's one of those guys that it's only fair if it's 3 vs him. 

anyway.....me p38j, him p39...but i don't remember which one. i got him to follow me up. i think he never got closer than 600 or 800. either way, he popped me. gave me a pilot wound.....and thereafter, every time i came close to having a shot, i blacked out.

it was a fun fight though. 

[boomerlu]

My next challenge is to get my turns at the top of the rope quicker and sweeter.  Spit8 is my ride lately
and been trying to get the "wing over" stall turn sorted.

Use flaps. Other than that, check out Steve's films. The thing is, when you are just hitting around 130 IAS, if you've picked your rope correctly, so are they. By the time you get your nose around, they should be wallowing. So the keys are
1) Use flaps to get your nose around quickly
2) Time it so you nose down before you hit stall.

You can try Agent's method as well, but I find that's more useful when I need to squeeze every last bit of vertical performance out of my plane. With a proper rope, you shouldn't have to, the disparate energy states should take care of you.

[WWhiskey]

the biggest problem i have when i'm the one roping you.......i can see when you're about to stall.......but i have the hardest time managing to capitalize on your mistake.

me too!! i can get the rope and the fake if i am following, but in the rope i have a very hard time getting guns on! i guess i wait to long and am almost stalled as well, by the time i get guns on he is manuvering, so i will follow him up and kill him if he goes up, but they dont most of the time, they run!

[Agent360]

mtnman..with all due respect

You may be confused but I think you just disagree with me.

By standard definitions any move to the vertical forcing the opponent to stall is a rope.

I have repeatedly stated the fake rope DOES NOT involve forcing the opponent into a stall. He may in fact stall himself therefore roping himself. Although this can and does happen it is not the goal of the move. If this does happen it is a fortuitous..nothing more.

There are many accepted terms in Shaw's book. You will not find the term "fake rope" in it. You will not find this term listed in any books on ACM. And of course you will not find any trainers using the term of teaching anything similar to it.

The "fake rope" consists of a series of standard ACM maneuvers strung together. Since I repeatedly do this same series of maneuvers in the exact same way, which results in the same ending I chose to name it something.

Everyone is free to disagree with the usefullness of the move. Many posts here have stated this opinion arguing that is serves no purpose and is likely to put you at disadvantage or even get you killed.

The usefulness of it is not for me to decide. That is up to the reader. I only described it in detail and stated my reasons for using it.

At the very least it has served a purpose of perhaps helping others understand what a real rope is and how to do one.

My style of flying and the moves I use to win are unconventional. Most trainers disagree with them. The fake rope is one of these cases.

As we all know every engagement is a free flowing process of move and counter move. There are many excepted concepts and of course there will be unaccepted ones as well. It is up to the reader/pilot to discover for themselves what is or is not useful to them.

At this point I can offer no further explanation as the topic has been fully explored and explained.

S!

[mtnman]

mtnman..with all due respect

You may be confused but I think you just disagree with me.

By standard definitions any move to the vertical forcing the opponent to stall is a rope.

I have repeatedly stated the fake rope DOES NOT involve forcing the opponent into a stall. He may in fact stall himself therefore roping himself. Although this can and does happen it is not the goal of the move. If this does happen it is a fortuitous..nothing more.

There are many accepted terms in Shaw's book. You will not find the term "fake rope" in it. You will not find this term listed in any books on ACM. And of course you will not find any trainers using the term of teaching anything similar to it.

The "fake rope" consists of a series of standard ACM maneuvers strung together. Since I repeatedly do this same series of maneuvers in the exact same way, which results in the same ending I chose to name it something.

Everyone is free to disagree with the usefullness of the move. Many posts here have stated this opinion arguing that is serves no purpose and is likely to put you at disadvantage or even get you killed.

The usefulness of it is not for me to decide. That is up to the reader. I only described it in detail and stated my reasons for using it.

At the very least it has served a purpose of perhaps helping others understand what a real rope is and how to do one.

My style of flying and the moves I use to win are unconventional. Most trainers disagree with them. The fake rope is one of these cases.

As we all know every engagement is a free flowing process of move and counter move. There are many excepted concepts and of course there will be unaccepted ones as well. It is up to the reader/pilot to discover for themselves what is or is not useful to them.

At this point I can offer no further explanation as the topic has been fully explored and explained.

S!

Sounds good Agent!

I don't generally fly/fight in the "recommended" manner either, and I don't doubt you find the maneuver you describe useful, and use it regularly.  I just don't see the way it's named agreeing with the way it's described.  No big deal...

<S>

[boomerlu]

me too!! i can get the rope and the fake if i am following, but in the rope i have a very hard time getting guns on! i guess i wait to long and am almost stalled as well, by the time i get guns on he is manuvering, so i will follow him up and kill him if he goes up, but they dont most of the time, they run!

Here, look at it from this perspective - say I am 300 mph going up roping a guy 1k behind me who is 250 mph.

I go up, i bleed a little bit of E so on the way up our speeds are going to be something like me @ 200, enemy @ 180.

Our speeds will continue to be closely matched all the way up to the top of the rope and stall. Therefore if I wait until I stall, my opponent will stall at the same time. By the time I'm nose down going after him, he's regaining airspeed and maneuvering ability. Good, but not a guaranteed kill like a stalled out opponent is.

Contrast this to the situation where I nose over at around 130-150 mph. I am not stalled and neither is he. However this doesn't matter because he is likely 600-800 out with no closure and mushy controls - he cannot pull into a guns solution. However, his nose is still pointing up and he is losing speed.

In THIS situation and nose over timing, he is stalled and I am coming down on him. BAM, easy kill on a non-maneuvering target.

The key concept here is that you can approximately judge your opponent's airspeed by looking at your own. When you are at 130 mph, he is around 130 mph. This of course relies on the correct rope setup - you should be seeing negative or neutral closure from 1.0-1.5k out before you pull into the vertical. Knowing this timing, you can pull over the top before you stall and in the 3-4 seconds it takes for you to pull over, he will have lost that last bit of airspeed to keep him from stalling.

[Plawranc]

Sounds good Agent!

I don't generally fly/fight in the "recommended" manner either, and I don't doubt you find the maneuver you describe useful, and use it regularly.  I just don't see the way it's named agreeing with the way it's described.  No big deal...

<S>

He does :S