Sending out Fines to JG11 pilots

[JunkyII]

Anyone who Flies AH KNOWS if enemy is on your 6 at less than 2k .... you are dead! 800 was a fiasco for us and easy pickings for them! Nightmares are not lax pilots if given a chance! JG11 had a fish barrel opportunity and took rightful advantage of it!

Not true bud sry, I normally like to start a slow turn when they are maybe 1.5k out then at the 800-600 range I make my move which is a vertical move where I point my wing at the guy and scrub his shot works almost every time except when im running low on E.



WTG JG11 showing people why German Iron is "Just for men"

[Anaxogoras]

The "control zone" starts at about 800 yards and goes inward to ~400 yards.  So while it's false that you are dead if the bandit is 2k behind you, are are more or less screwed if the icon range is 800 yards and you don't see the bandit until the icon appears.

[fudgums]

Agreed with junky and gavagai

[Vulcan]

Lag does not make 200 yards difference, how would we ever be able to fly in formation then?

If you have 2 people running between 100-200ms (not uncommon) plus server and processing overheads then there is a potential for easily between half a second and a second lag. At 300mph thats around 150 yards per second at each end difference.

Flying in formation is only your point of view. If you grabbed the films from other people things would look slightly different.

[JunkyII]

If you have 2 people running between 100-200ms (not uncommon) plus server and processing overheads then there is a potential for easily between half a second and a second lag. At 300mph thats around 150 yards per second at each end difference.

Flying in formation is only your point of view. If you grabbed the films from other people things would look slightly different.

I get little jumps so normally I have to lead the flight so I dont jump ahead

[33Vortex]

I agree it looks slightly differently, but never seen 150 yards difference. When someone spike he'll jump some distance back and forth but from what I've seen when looking at film recorded from two diff locations (USA/EU) the difference can be 50 maybe 100 yards. It makes a difference, but not a huge one.

[CptA]

33Vortex,

You're overlooking the difference in speed.

When planes are trying to fly in close formation, the various pilots are trying to fly at approximately the same speed, so the lag jumps are fairly small.

However, when a bunch of Fighters dive down from a 15k-20k altitude in an intercept on a bunch of NOE bombers, the speed differential is going to be somewhat more extreme.

250-300 mph low-level bombers

400-500 mph diving fighters

150-200 mph speed differential = Much Larger lag jumps.

In my own case I was one of the NOE Mossies who got jumped.

I heard some warnings from farther back in the bomber stream and my head immediately went on a swivel trying to spot the threat, but I never even saw the guy that shot me down.

I quite literaly saw his tracers appearing behind me "out of thin air", then poof! I was history.

As my plane came apart, I caught my first sight of my killer as he zoomed past me like I was standing still.

No foul on JG11 as they were only performing their mission, and simply taking advantage of circumstances and the settings that probably should never have been provided by the CMs.

My $0.02

CptA

[daddog]

...simply taking advantage of circumstances and the settings that probably should never have been provided by the CMs.

You may not have read in another thread that the icon settings were a mistake on my part. No other CM's fault but mine. Not sure what you meant by the last part. Can you explain?

[33Vortex]

How can lag be related to the difference in speed between two airplanes??? Care to elaborate on that too?

I can buy the relative relationship of higher speed => bigger lag jumps but can't see how it has anything to do with the speed difference between two airplanes. Anyone with knowledge of AH coding or netcommunication care to comment?

[ghostdancer]

I am not a HTC programmer and was not involved in the incident. However, from a programming point of view this is a possible scenario (depending on how things were coded).

Basically the code constantly queries or checks the position of your plane. This query is set to happen every X amount of time. Connectivity issues of course can affect this and this is why we have lag. Your computer pings the server asking for this information and then the server sends your computer the information. The time between request and response creates lag.

Now you also have another factor in play, as I said, and that is how often is the request made?

This is where speed of the planes come into play. If the server makes a request while you are moving at X mph you move a certain distance from that point when the next request is made. If the planes around you are all moving the same speed then your relative distance between yourself and the other plane can roughly remain the same. However if their a closure rate or expansion rate then things can get iffy.

If the server makes a request every X amount of time and in that time distance between you and another plane increases or decreases by Y amount then you can also have lag when the difference starts to become extreme. Basically it all depends on how often and how fast the request and response happens and how different the shift in positions are.

Lets say for sake of argument that the request is made every second. One plane is moving at 300mph and the other is moving at 250mph, a 50 mph difference. This basically mean that the 300 mph plane moves about 73ft per second faster than the other plane or 24 yards a second.  In this scenario basically you have 33 seconds from a plane being at 800 yards behind you to being at 0 yards.

So basically in that scenario a plane can shift position 24 yards if the request and response happens in 1 second. So again it depends on how fast the request and response is and the distance shift between the two planes.

Now I am not saying that HTC code does its request every second (I hope it is doing it much more often) and I am not sure how they handle this but basically it does boil down to your machine asking the server the location of the other planes every x amount of time. The slower the request and response time and the more extreme the positional shifts can cause jumps.

[Stegahorse]

The point is that if you do not react at 2k or closer you've lost most of the opportunity to survive a 6 attack. If you could not see beyond 800 yards, you become a fish in a barrel.......easy kill.

[VonMessa]

The point is that if you do not react at 2k or closer you've lost most of the opportunity to survive a 6 attack. If you could not see beyond 800 yards, you become a fish in a barrel.......easy kill.

The faster the con chasing me, the slower I am to react.  I prefer to let them get to almost d800 so they are committed, and either flat-out overshoot and miss, or better yet, wind up in front of my guns       

[33Vortex]

Overshooting is a beginners mistake, it is sometimes difficult to tell if it's a experienced stick or a novice closing in on you but the two final answers to that question is 1) does he overshoot? and 2) does he hit you when firing?

Thx for the clarification ghostdancer but that factor only comes into real play if there is bad connectivity on either end no? If the queries and data stream is uninterrrupted both planes will move smoothly (naturally also depending on how the pilot fly his crate). So only when connectivity is less than satisfactory will this be a factor in the outcome of the fight.

From my point of view (I did not participate in this particular fight btw) the real issue here is that the tags, or absence of them rather, deny you the ability to detect a incoming threat. In other words, your SA suffer tremendously and especially if you're not aware that the tag range is 800. Afaik it should have been at least 3k right? So the real issue here imo is that the 800 yard tag range effectively denied you of any useful level of SA until it was too late. It was a CM mistake and has been confirmed and apologized as such, so live with it, after all it's just a game.

The tags are ultimately there to level the field in situational awareness. Not everyone have a high-res monitor and even at very high resolution the image produced by the computer is far less than what the human eye can percieve and especially the sense of three dimensional, or spatial, room is missing. So the tags are there for a purpose, most flight sims have them and for good reason.

I'm sure it was a very intense and violent fight, sounds that way from what I've read. There's nothing to be ashamed of, FSOs are always a gamble and we all have some good nights and some bad nights. It's part of the challenge, always a roll of the dice and it keeps people interested.

So... I'm sure you guys want to redeem yourselves tonight and get some revenge no?  

[ghostdancer]

Yep if you have a good connection you shouldn't have much of an issue but yes there is a fudge factor in there. When the icon says it is at a distance it might be there or might be little bit farther away or closer depend on your connectivity and such. But yes the real factor is being surprised at the icon showing only at 800 yards (a setting mistake). Not sure off the top of my head when the game goes from rendering an enemy from a dot on the monitor to actually start rendering it as a plane.

I think other people have talked about how you would in real life start to be able to make out the shapes of the other planes are greater distance.

But normally with icon range short you have a bit more heads up and time to react. Also as stated it was mistake and if was a real setting I think pilots would be able to compensate for it with paranoia (is that a friendly dot or a non friendly dot .. we better prepare for it not being friendly). I am sure the situation won't happen again since next time icon range is adjusted it will be on purpose and everybody will be aware of it.

[boomerlu]

In other words, your SA suffer tremendously and especially if you're not aware that the tag range is 800. Afaik it should have been at least 3k right? So the real issue here imo is that the 800 yard tag range effectively denied you of any useful level of SA until it was too late. It was a CM mistake and has been confirmed and apologized as such, so live with it, after all it's just a game.

Yeah I tend to agree.

If everybody KNEW that the tags were range 800, they would know to start maneuvering well before icon range. It's not so much the tags themselves as much as the knowledge of what range they are set at.

Think about it, if you know the tags are 6k out as they are in the MA, you wouldn't even try to maneuver until you had icon. Similarly, since all pilots assumed 3k tags, the NOE defenders didn't try to maneuver until they saw tags, which at 3k would have been a safe distance.

While this did affect us as attackers, it was a much bigger detriment to the defenders. For the attackers, we had significantly less time to line up a gun solution, but we weren't the ones in danger.