Instantaneous Turn Rate versus Speed

[PJ_Godzilla]

Remember this is where we start:

starts a climbing turn
scrubs off a significant amount of speed
rolls into a sharp bank and kicks hard rudder in the same direction - can't tell if flaps are out
noses down
repeats

Once that sequence begins the Spit has no choice but to continue a flat turn or an Immelman because he can't stay with that reverse.  If he chooses the flat turn then this sequence of reverses is very effective at getting inside a tighter turning planes turn, thus my earlier recomendation to Immel.  Keeping the fight vertical favors the Spit.

By your comment then no one should ever use a vertical move or you'll kill them.  Well, I'd say that totally depends on the starting situation.  In the screen shots above, too far back and I'm coming stright back down at you.  Too close and you can't follow the reverse.

Right - that's the dilemma exactly. The former situation is probably riskier for you due to the possibility of a HO - but you'd still have the advantage.

OTOH, Immel should mean I get to choose my vector by virtue of a simple vertical roll - and without giving you an alt advantage.

[PJ_Godzilla]

To film (and review) your flights is easy- here's how...

Default to start (and stop) film is Alt-R.  I re-mapped mine to just plain "R".  At any point while playing, just hit Alt-R to start filming.  When it's filming, you'll notice a small red "R" in the upper corner of your screen. When you hit Alt-R again, filming will stop, and the red "R" will be gone...  When you stop filming, you'll be prompted to give it a name, or you can just save it as the number automatically assigned to it.

THanks. I'm good with the viewing already but will attempt to film myself tonight.

[bozon]

This sounds a lot like a high yoyo and it makes some sense.

Not really like a yoyo. You start it at an opposite direction to what you would in a yoyo.
Check this out at 3:30 :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQF7VFkaS2E&feature=related

They call it a series of yoyos and the chart indeed describe such yoyos, but the 3D render at 3:30 (also before) shows a lag roll - the mig is to the left, but the mirage rolls to the right 270 degrees and not to the left like it would for a yoyo.

[TequilaChaser]

I think what is happening is a trick I like to use.

whoever told you their are "TRICKS" told you wrong, if you did not recieve this "Tricks Theory " from anyone, then you need to reassess your thought process on BFM


 

I use it when I am being chased going over 350 mph and being caught for instance a high con dove on my six I drag him out but he is gaining. at about 1.5k I climb a bit and deploy 2 notches of flaps thus initiating the f4u's best turn radius

not all F4U series planes best turn radius is at the "2 notches of flaps extended" heck prob most of them are not, some may have a better "Sustained Turn Rate" at 2 notches, but not best turn radius, and then some have a better turnrate & Turn radius with all notches extended.......
I recommend you learn your F4U planes and their abilities and weaknesses

I quickly nose down so he has to re adjust his aim quickly by this point he is about 800 ish out I flatten my wing to him and quickly pull into his flight path as he probably didnt lag persuit and went for the shot if he did follow lag I generally just full flat turn or yo yo as needed and initiate some rolling scissor once I am ready.

you can not initiate a rolling scissors, "You can try to setup and overshoot and if lucky initiate/attempt a rolling scissors if your opponent takes the bait"

I have this win for me mostly against spits who rely on their turn to win but the 2 notch flapped f4u is a better turner

WRONG......... if you are beating spitfires in the F4U by just outturning them, it is not because the F4U turns better than the spit, It is because the person you are up against is not advanced as much as "you might be" in dogfighting..... or you are not straight up "outturning them" you are doing somethingmore than just turning....

but doesnt gain e so it will win a flat turn but lose the vert game this way. So if the spit resorts to going vert I flatten and scoot away as the f4u is faster than the spit just takes time to build the speed.

the spitfire can out accelerate the F4U initially, so you are getting lucky from your opponents poor gunnery......

I am not trying to pick on you, Greziz, but your description of "what to do" was very easy to show what was wrong information, Sir.....

hope this helps both the OP and you, in learning some untruths from your post 

[Greziz]

I out flat turn spits on the deck more than once the spit once slow tends to flounder I have all notches of flaps extended and occasionally pop gear to lose airspeed if I am getting to fast. When I out turn them I am desperate and praying the spit is to dumb to give up the flat turn until it is to late. when I say to late I mean the spit generally stalls and has to straighten and I six him or god forbid he simply straighten on his own in an attempt to extend but panics when I fire at him pinging him 600 out. also 2 notches of flaps is the best extended turn radius which is what I meant. I only deploy 2 flaps when possible as it helps to not scrub e I might need. The f4u can out turn most of the spits in a flat turn! Now if the spit has any semblance of skill it wont commit to a SIMPLE FLAT TURN he will probably take advantage of his massive e producing plane and use yoyo's and what not or gain some e in a flat turn while he climbs a bit. When I see spits do this I tend to let them go up and when they come down I try to do some scissors or a barrel roll and spook em a bit gennerally I am to dead on e to do much unless they make foolish mistakes and I am trying to simply build some speed.

[Greziz]

I read a very nice write up on the help board with neat graphs and what not that was all about the f4u and a seasoned pilot of the hog had posted it I can't bring myself to care to look it up again though. Any who as I said these are all just my play styles and tactics they are not for every one. By the by if your gunna rag on my strategies and try to quote my words please at least understand my meaning and idea's I am sorry if I can not convey everything perfectly. Example of this is when I state I initiate rolling scissors I stated I do them when I am ready not immediately after that overshoot.

[oh and tequila if you ever want to test my skill in a f4u I can duel you. I can assure you I am no push over in the bird I may fly the 39 alot but the f4u was my first serious killing plane especially when I was in the blacksheep. I might not beat you as I know your a very skilled hog pilot and you fly it regularly but I will be no pushover.]

[TequilaChaser]

I out flat turn spits on the deck more than once the spit once slow tends to flounder I have all notches of flaps extended and occasionally pop gear to lose airspeed if I am getting to fast. When I out turn them I am desperate and praying the spit is to dumb to give up the flat turn until it is to late. when I say to late I mean the spit generally stalls and has to straighten and I six him or god forbid he simply straighten on his own in an attempt to extend but panics when I fire at him pinging him 600 out. also 2 notches of flaps is the best extended turn radius which is what I meant. I only deploy 2 flaps when possible as it helps to not scrub e I might need. The f4u can out turn most of the spits in a flat turn! Now if the spit has any semblance of skill it wont commit to a SIMPLE FLAT TURN he will probably take advantage of his massive e producing plane and use yoyo's and what not or gain some e in a flat turn while he climbs a bit. When I see spits do this I tend to let them go up and when they come down I try to do some scissors or a barrel roll and spook em a bit gennerally I am to dead on e to do much unless they make foolish mistakes and I am trying to simply build some speed.

Greziz, Sir?  are you able to meet me in the Training Arena this morning?  I can meet you in there within the next hour, if you would like???

Also, could you please tell me where you are getting your F4U information and Spitfire information?  or is it that this is just your experience in the Arenas?

The F4U planes WILL NOT OUT FLAT TURN a Spitfire

NOT ALL F4U planes aquire their best turn radius nor their best Sustained Turn rate AT 2 NOTCHES DEPLOYED

UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD YOU BE DROPPING GEAR IN THE F4U, AGAINST A SPITFIRE IN A FLAT TURN

I am willing to log in right now and work with you on your misconceptions.....

The only way I see any of what you have said to of worked for you, is because you are up against players less skilled than yourself......

If someone has told you to do all these things you are doing, please tell me who it is..... because it is wrong information ( you can PM me to keep it off the boards )

 

[TequilaChaser]

its not about how well you are in the F4U, I am simply trying to help you Greziz

heck, you prob can whip me all over the arena.......

but its the things you have posted, the ones I pointed out as being wrong information

I want to help you is all........

if a seasoned F4U pilot posted that stuff, I do not think you fully understood what he was saying......

lets meet in the TA


EDIT: Greziz, shoot me a PM or post back a reply here, if you would like to hook up in the Training Arena this morning...... I got to run down to the country store for a gal. of milk, but will be back in 15 minutes......

will check to see if you want to meet when I get back....

 

[PJ_Godzilla]

The F4U planes WILL NOT OUT FLAT TURN a Spitfire

For what it's worth, I absolutely LOVE THIS CHART, developed by Gavagai: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,275682.msg3476536.html#msg3476536

I've found it to generally be correct when bumped up against the hard pier of empiricity and am trying to make it second nature in evaluating method against a given opponent. You would, indeed, be hard pressed to find ANY SPit in the hierarchy that flat-turns worse than a Hawg - and Gav did run the tests flaps popped, if it helped. That said, I find some of the results surprising - like P-40 compared to 109 G-14, however, bear in mind this is simply a comparison of best rate versus best rate. The flight condition isn't in the chart  -though I'd like to see 'em.

[grizz441]

If you are losing to F4Us consistently in Spit8s and Spit9s, you are doing something terribly wrong.  It has nothing to do with corner speeds.

[PJ_Godzilla]

If you are losing to F4Us consistently in Spit8s and Spit9s, you are doing something terribly wrong.  It has nothing to do with corner speeds.

See OP. It's not F4U's in general, just one type of maneuver in particular and, in fact, one pilot who was using it. I've seen a similar thing, though, with Shiv when  I took him on using an N1K - but had little trouble with his F4U from the seat of a Spit IX. Generally, I'd say, as long as you avoid the initial high-speed pass from the F4U, it's going to be all right. Same could be said for the Jug...

[Greziz]

I tend to be asleep 8am to 4 pm I am a late nighter.

[PJ_Godzilla]

If you are losing to F4Us consistently in Spit8s and Spit9s, you are doing something terribly wrong.  It has nothing to do with corner speeds.

I should add here, Grizz, I think Bozon's nailed it. This is classic - a faster a/c with a slightly better e-state using the vertical to beat the better flat-turner. The lag displacement roll is the way to go to counter. If I understand it correctly, you exit the helix in lag pursuit.

As for the F4U maneuver of which I wrote, the thing is, most pilots aren't good enough to use it. Lindy, however, burned me with it about 3 times in one day, memorably - though I snapshot him on the last attempt. I also think I've seen BParker use it in a C-Hawg.