Aircraft speed chart

[Hristo]

Personally, I have no problem killing P 51D. But it got harder than it was 2 versions ago. Period.

[Vermillion]

Lephturn:

I don't think people are complaining about the sustained turn rate of the P-51. They stink in AH, and they should stink.

What they are complaining about is that the P-51 has very mild handling at low speeds, when historically the laminar flow wings of the Mustang had fairly unfriendly low speed handling characterisitics.

Also, maybe I am not as well read as you, but to my knowledge the Mustang was traditionally a BnZ fighter, NOT an E-figter.  I don't remember too many accounts of Mustangs outlooping 109's (or any other plane for that matter).

There is a drastic difference between the two, with an E-Fight being the use of manuevers in the vertical to gain angles. At least thats according to Shaw.

Yes you can E-Fight a Mustang, but that wasn't historically one of its strengths.  Remember the historically poor climbrate?

And thats probably another one of the complaints right now. Right now, you can fight a Mustang in the vertical with little to no fear, and its quite effective. I should know, cause thats what I am flying right now.

I do however agree with you that the guns on the Mustang seem about right and they are not compareable to the BFG's of the Fw190 & N1K2.

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Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires "

[fats]

--- Vermillion: ---
There is a drastic difference between the two, with an E-Fight being the use of manuevers in the vertical to gain angles. At least thats according to Shaw
--- end ---

Well it's been 4 years since I last read Shaw, but then I read the same maneuvers _every_ night for months. And those were the E fight part, cause of my obsession with Fw 190 in CK.

Anyway the good ol days a side, I recall Shaw saying that E-fiting is used to gain position and you often _lose_ angles in the process. And that infact it is good to lose angles to lure the A-fiter to follow you, cause every moment the sittuation looks better and better for him up untill the E-fiter strikes back. Heh well anyone care to check, I don't know where my Shaw is <gasp!>. Hmm now I really want to go back and re-read all the stuff, maybe I'll learn some flying.

//fats

[Hristo]

And from fighting concepts, back to plane performance  

Try power-off stall. Right now P 51D stalls at lower speed than 109G-10. I did not measure it accurately, but it is roughly 15-20 mph difference. Take this in TnB/stallfight against 109, and see how easily you kill it.

Also, try zooming in P 51D till 0 speed. It will go there, than hammerhead almost by itself. Like a toy  

[Minotaur]

I joined the Beta Team I believe early ver 34.  Basically my only knowledge about these planes is from other simulations, books, movies or conversation.  A weak foundation, I absorbed this game maybe from a different perspective than most.  

As I was new too this game (I still am), it was wildly different too anything I had played before.  There were three things that really impressed and surprized me about this game at that time.

First, was how many 109's there were up.  It seemed by far that this was the most favorite and popular plane.  Granted, at that time there were only 3 fighter planes to the set.

Second, was how successful this 109 plane seemed to be.  I thought to myself "Wow!  What a Wonderful Plane".  Sadly, I have never liked it very much.  I could not get it to turn the way I liked.  

Many times phrases broadcast on the global channel were of the like "If you don't fly the 109 you are just basically a target". At that time the 109 backed up that claim.  

Third, was this player Mitsu.  I was really astonished at the number of kills per sortie Mitsu could get.  Mitsu turned out to be a very nice individual, not some sim demon I imagined at first.    I believed Mitsu flew the Spit, thusly so did I.

Since I started playing, I have gotten a little better.  So I can not actually compare the changes in plane performance across the different ver's.  I read this forum alot and I can tell they must have changed.  

Before 51 pilots complained, now 109 pilots complain.  So obviously HTC does react and makes changes.  This gives me pride and I am happy to be involved in this Beta!

Maybe just another perspective to condsider   or to dump on  .

Mino

[funked]

A more appropriate opponent for the P-51D would be the Fw 190D-9.

Hell a Fw 190A-4 was good for 350 on the deck and 415 at 20k.

It's a beta though!

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 12-03-1999).]

[Lephturn]

I don't agree with that narrow definition of E fighting Verm.  It's a tough call, because all air combat is E fighting.  What I mean in any case, is that the 51 has low drag and can retain it's energy very well.  It doen't climb or loop the best of course, but if you start a fight with an E advantage and use the verticle, you can maintain that cushion against any plane in the arena if you are careful.  You can stay fast and pull manuevers in the 51 without burning as much E as the others will.  Was that the traditional strength of the 51?  I don't know, but it agrees with what I've seen in WB and other sims.  Was it historically used that way?  Not really relevant... everybody essentially BnZ'ed every plane there was if they could, it would be the exception when somebody got in a true TnB situation.  What is relevant is whether the strengths and weaknesses of the plane are modelled correctly.  The seem to be in my not-so-learned opinion.

The low speed handling thing... I have no idea.  A Pony at stall is soon to be a dead Pony, so it doesn't impact my fighting online.  If you guys think there is an issue there.. then test and post what you find, but this anecdotal stuff gets us no-place.

Glad we agree on the .50's btw.  I think the .50's feel right-on where they always seemed to be p-shooters in WB.


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Lephturn
The Flying Pigs

[Hristo]

Stall speeds are not anecdotal. Go test it and watch the gauges.

And don't think you don't use it in combat in your P 51. You do, because the plane takes this docile behaviour to higher speeds too. Slow speed stall is just a way to point this out.

Also, I consider 109 the best E fighter, because of the best E income. It could quickly establish E parity against P 51 in early versions. Now it's a dog ;(

[Hristo]

And here's some anecdotal data from the Arena:

Took a Pony, 50% fuel. Climbed at 165 IAS and 4250 fpm at 5k. At 20k it was 2750-3000fpm.

Found a low B -17, dove on it, took its wing in 1 pass(awarded a kill, if someone suspects  ). I aimed for wing, started firing at d5, pulled up at d2, convergence 300 for all guns. After that got in ack range, lost engine and radiator, went for a ditch.

109 tried to vulched me, but augered.

How's that for a Hollywood movie Mustang ?

P.S.
I use different handle when flying UFO planes  


[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 12-03-1999).]

[Minotaur]

Hristo;

I agree that the are some (maybe major)problems with this ver's 51.  I flew both the 109 and 190.  The 109 won't turn, and the 190 seems to be always stalling.  I am not good enough , in either plane, to rate ACM abilities.  These two things I do not notice flying the 51.  Guns for HO seem very nice, 3 kills in that fashion from a 190.

I ran your climb test.  I set OttoClimb speed to 165 before take off, 50% fuel.  I got the plane clean and as soon as speed went above 165 I hit OttoClimb.

My VAS pegged at 4 for about 4 seconds then dropped to 3.5 sustained.  3.5 was the max sustained VAS I could acheive.  I do something wrong?

I ran an identical test on the 109, the VAS stay pegged at 4 until the plane crossed about 12k.  VAS slowly droped to 3 around 23k.  That about sound right?

Good Luck to you!    

Mino

[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 12-03-1999).]

[Hristo]

Minotaur, I stand corrected at VSI value of P 51D at 5k. I am getting 3750 fpm (still 0.39 version).

My appologies, I will pay more attention to the gauge next time  

[SnakeEyes]

The FW-190A8 is not less appropriate than the D9.  The number of late mark 190As that P-51s encountered in 1944 & 1945 is FAR higher than the number of D9s encountered.

The numbers for the 51 may actually be off (I'm the wrong guy for that math), but when it comes to the historical perspective, the 190A8 and 51D are classic opponents, as are the 51D and 109G6.  These aircraft were all manufactured in the 1000s and saw plenty of combat throughout 1944 and further.

The 190D and F4U-4 are essentially 1945 planes, as that is when they both saw the majority of their action.

PS - Those of you who haven't heard much about the P-51 being able to E-fight should enroll in RIF (Reading Is Fundamental).  I can send you some book recommendations (although you must be able to read English rather than German).

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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=

[-ik-]

snake eyes, the 109G-6 was introduced at the beginning of 1943, the P-51D in the early spring of '44 I believe. I think the proper contemporary you are looking for would then be the 109G-14 (all included MW 50, and over 1000 with the AS conversion [larger supercharger] for increased high altitude performance).

 

[This message has been edited by -ik- (edited 12-06-1999).]

[SnakeEyes]

Actually, I meant to type just 109G.  I have no idea why I added the 6.  

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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=

[janneh]

Hristo wrote:
"Personally, I have no problem killing P 51D."

Well, I have a big problem, as P-51's seems to be much faster than my bullets, I mean they can run really fast after loosing their surprise / alt advantage.  

Of course, there are good P-51 drivers, which get focus on fighting instead of a running, but not as many as should be...

ps. <S> HiTech, although was little warping fight, You nicely sucked all my E with Your stang.