Author Topic: June FSO  (Read 3302 times)

Offline SmokinLoon

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6168
Re: June FSO
« Reply #45 on: June 01, 2010, 05:43:23 PM »
When developing a historical match-up, the second thing the designer should be concerned with is "balance".  The primary goal is to reenact the historical encounter, and for each side to be given the hand-cap or advantage it had for the real deal.  I believe the goal of each side, per scoring, is to achieve better results that what actually happened in the real deal.  Otherwise, we're simply meeting in the middle, punching it out like a playground fight, and letting the points fall where they may.

If the Axis was stomped on during the summer of 1944 over Normandy with a kill to death ratio of 1 to 9, then it goal should be to minimize losses and to maximize damage to the Allies and hope for a 1 to 4 kill to death ratio.

The FSO is an evolving concept, give the designers a perpetual chance to keep improving. 

Proud grandson of the late Lt. Col. Darrell M. "Bud" Gray, USAF (ret.), B24D pilot, 5th BG/72nd BS. 28 combat missions within the "slot", PTO.

Offline Spikes

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15739
    • Twitch: Twitch Feed
Re: June FSO
« Reply #46 on: June 01, 2010, 06:16:35 PM »
When developing a historical match-up, the second thing the designer should be concerned with is "balance".  The primary goal is to reenact the historical encounter, and for each side to be given the hand-cap or advantage it had for the real deal.  I believe the goal of each side, per scoring, is to achieve better results that what actually happened in the real deal.  Otherwise, we're simply meeting in the middle, punching it out like a playground fight, and letting the points fall where they may.

If the Axis was stomped on during the summer of 1944 over Normandy with a kill to death ratio of 1 to 9, then it goal should be to minimize losses and to maximize damage to the Allies and hope for a 1 to 4 kill to death ratio.

The FSO is an evolving concept, give the designers a perpetual chance to keep improving. 


I can agree with this. However, if the Axis get spanked by the Allies and most have no fun, such as the Final Battle in a couple frames, what is the point, since the point of scenarios/FSOs are yes, to recreate a battle, but to have fun as well?

I just think that the logic behind the substitution of the Spit 9 with the Spit 16 is flawed and needs to be matched with an Axis ride.

The G6's can possibly match the Spit VIII's, in the hands of a good pilot.

The allies have many planes his hispanos:
Typh, Spits, Mossie, 38.
The P51 and Jug are the only with out, and those have great diving ability, speed, and 6-8 50's to make up for the lack of cannons.

The axis have, with 20mms:
A5s, A8s (+30s), F8s, G14s (+30s), G6s, 234s (Yes I will add that in).

Now in a turn fight, you can count the A8s, F8s, and 234s out.
That leaves the A5s, G14s, and G6s.
The A5s have good cannons, but lack a bit in maneuverability (a bit, I've seen some guys fight that bird well)
The G14s and G6s are a bit better, but lack firepower if you do not take the gondolas.

Now, the Spit IX that we have is faster than the A5s, G14s, and Spit 16s at 26K.
In Turn Radius, the Spit IX is very close to the Spit XVI at flaps and no flaps.
It also is close in acceleration. It is also close in Lethality and Maximum Speed @ low alt.
So with very little losses in performance that won't be noticeably different in the field, why does it need to be replaced?

Now to the K4 and G14.
If the K4 is added, it would give us a viable option to fight the P51s at high altitude, as they compete well speed wise at any altitude.
Now, the P51 is still theoretically a better plane than the K4, since it is easier to handle and has a better gun selection. That said, why would giving the Axis a better fighting chance at bringing the score closer be a bad thing? A 2 weeker has a much better chance at hitting a plane with 1880 50 cals than he does at hitting a plane with 65 30mm rounds.

Now I am not whining or complaining, or trying to give the Axis a distinct advantage over the Allies and simply adding the K4 as a high alt bird does nothing of the sort. But it would certainly help us 'rewrite history' if it is at all possible.

In conclusion, it would be much appreciated if the K4 would be let in as a sub for the G10 that we do not have, that would have made a nice impact in this FSO.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2010, 06:19:08 PM by Spikes »
i7-12700k | Gigabyte Z690 GAMING X | 64GB G.Skill DDR4 | EVGA 1080ti FTW3 | H150i Capellix

FlyKommando.com

Offline grizz441

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7000
Re: June FSO
« Reply #47 on: June 01, 2010, 06:39:55 PM »
In my opinion, balance without question, but that does not mean we will not have setups where it is difficult for one side or another.

With many of the Allied fighters acting as strike AC I think this could work. Time will tell.


Honestly, this might be the most lop sided FSO I have ever seen, on paper.  I am expecting results to prove my point, but AoM will fight its damnedest to even it out regardless.

Offline ink

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11274
Re: June FSO
« Reply #48 on: June 01, 2010, 09:13:45 PM »
Honestly, this might be the most lop sided FSO I have ever seen, on paper.  I am expecting results to prove my point, but AoM will fight its damnedest to even it out regardless.


Hell ya :aok

Offline daddog

  • Aces High CM Staff (Retired)
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15082
      • http://www.332nd.org
Re: June FSO
« Reply #49 on: June 01, 2010, 10:24:38 PM »
Quote
When developing a historical match-up, the second thing the designer should be concerned with is "balance".  The primary goal is to reenact the historical encounter, and for each side to be given the hand-cap or advantage it had for the real deal.
Sorry sir. Could not disagree more. Been involved with FSO since the beginning. Always stressed to those I trained that balance takes precedence over historically accuracy. A late war Pacific setup would not be much fun with out some over representations of the Ki-84's and the N1K2's. Same would be true for some 1945 setup's. Both would have an overwhelming number of Allied pilots, but to keep it balanced we split the numbers pretty close to 50/50. The 'balance' is what has made FSO so popular over the years, not the historical accuracy.

 
Noses in the wind since 1997
332nd Flying Mongrels
daddog
Knowing for Sure

Offline WxMan

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 418
      • Arabian Knights
Re: June FSO
« Reply #50 on: June 02, 2010, 04:14:52 AM »
Honestly, this might be the most lop sided FSO I have ever seen, on paper.  I am expecting results to prove my point, but AoM will fight its damnedest to even it out regardless.

Do you remember last month? :headscratch: Rangoon Sunrise had to be the most lop sided FSO that I can remember in all my years.  Frankly, I expect the Axis to win each frame this month.
AKWxMan
Arabian Knights

"The money you payed earns you nothing. You paid for many hours of entertainment you received, and nothing more." - HiTech

Offline SmokinLoon

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6168
Re: June FSO
« Reply #51 on: June 02, 2010, 06:23:55 AM »
Sorry sir. Could not disagree more. Been involved with FSO since the beginning. Always stressed to those I trained that balance takes precedence over historically accuracy. A late war Pacific setup would not be much fun with out some over representations of the Ki-84's and the N1K2's. Same would be true for some 1945 setup's. Both would have an overwhelming number of Allied pilots, but to keep it balanced we split the numbers pretty close to 50/50. The 'balance' is what has made FSO so popular over the years, not the historical accuracy.

 

Don't confuse "balance" with playability.  Meeting in the middle and playing for kills shouldn't always be the name of the game.  Otherwise, it is no different than than the MA.  Adding in aircraft that may not have been there is completely fine, but as long as they dont sway the battle way way too far.

I also agree that a complete substitute of the Spit16 for the Spit9 is questionable, but I didnt set this FSO up.  As I've said before, I bet there will be adjustments for Frames 2 and 3.   
Proud grandson of the late Lt. Col. Darrell M. "Bud" Gray, USAF (ret.), B24D pilot, 5th BG/72nd BS. 28 combat missions within the "slot", PTO.

Offline Agent360

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 780
      • http://troywardphotography.com
Re: June FSO
« Reply #52 on: June 02, 2010, 10:21:14 PM »
Lets dont forget the aspect of "strategy" here.

If one side is at a disadvantage by plane selction there is still room to counter that with tactics.

HOWEVER.....If there is an imbalance there should be a reason for it. A reason in the scenario.

We do have to consider the fun factor. We should be able to make contact and fight at some time. So the option of not engaging is not an option.

Historical accuracy is important and is one of the reasons we have the FSO. But, no one is going to play a lopsided FSO. The FSO still has to consider the fun factor.

I think it should be 50 fun, 50 historical accuracy.