Author Topic: FiFi needs YOUR help!  (Read 588 times)

Offline Tupac

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FiFi needs YOUR help!
« on: April 19, 2012, 04:47:52 PM »
Many of you may have seen an article from EAA this morning in Indy Transponder about the potential grounding of all military aircraft on loan from the Department of Defense.

The short story is Michael Turner (R-OH) is proposing an amendment, “Title 10” to the House National Defense Authorization Act (H.R. 4310). I am attaching some links that further explain the situation -- the first one is the article from Indy Transponder this morning and the second is a blog post made this morning by Commemorative Air Force president, Steve Brown.

This amendment, if passed, will permanently ground the only flying B-29 in the world -- FIFI. Please contact Michael Turner and also your representative to express your opposition to his actions. Please.

http://www.eaa.org/news/2012/2012-04-18_title10.asp

Warbird Community Rises to Meet Threat

'Title 10 Amendment' could devastate historic aircraft fleet



April 18, 2012 - EAA and the Warbirds of America are joining with the Commemorative Air Force, Collings Foundation, and other warbird groups in opposition of a proposed amendment to the House National Defense Authorization Act (H.R. 4310) that could have a devastating effect on the fleet of civilian-operated historic military aircraft.
The amendment introduced by Rep. Michael Turner (R-OH) would bar the Department of Defense from loaning or gifting any U.S. military aircraft or parts to any entity except those that would put the aircraft on static display, such as in a museum. The amendment would preclude the aircraft from being loaned to private individuals, associations, or museums where there is any intent of flying the historic vintage warbirds, even at air shows or demonstrations of support for veterans.
Military branches such as the U.S. Air Force often do not donate aircraft to private groups outright; they instead "loan" them under a Defense Department provision, Section 2572 of Title 10, to individuals and groups for indefinite periods. These private individuals and groups usually restore and operate the aircraft at their own expense to demonstrate these pieces of flying history to events such as EAA AirVenture Oshkosh.
"The Department of Defense has made numerous attempts through the years to preclude any former military aircraft from being flown in civilian hands," said Doug Macnair, EAA's vice president of government relations. "This view has never been supported by any safety or security imperative and is currently being couched as a move to supposedly 'preserve' rare military aircraft. We can be assured that the U.S. military has neither the funding nor the mandate to preserve these aircraft in flying condition, which would leave the only option for them to be used as static museum displays. That would truly be a tragedy and a loss of our aviation and military heritage."
Rep. Turner's district includes Dayton, Ohio, home of the National Museum of the U.S. Air Force, which has been adamant in its attempts to ground former U.S. military aircraft. Ironically, Dayton is the same site where this week more than 20 B-25 bombers - preserved and flown by private groups and individuals - are gathering in a public spectacle to honor the 70th anniversary of the famed Doolittle Raid on Japan.
EAA and the other warbird groups are working with staff in the House's Armed Services Committee and Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, as well as the House General Aviation Caucus as the Defense Authorization Bill goes into initial committee review next week and to the House floor in early May. Although the exact language of the amendment has not been shared with the aviation community or widely on Capitol Hill, Rep. Turner plans to push the amendment despite initial congressional opposition.
EAA and Warbirds of America recommend that members contact their congressional representatives, urging them to voice their opposition to the Turner amendment and in support of maintaining the private ability to restore and fly these historic aircraft.



Steve's blog post:


http://commemorativeairforce.org/?pa...&cms_page=1267

Some of you may have already seen that EAA has released the story about Rep Michael Turner (R-OH) proposing an amendment, “Title 10” to the House National Defense Authorization Act (H.R. 4310). This is something I have been working on since last week, but since EAA has taken it public, I will give you the details.
The significance of “Title 10” is that it would bar the Department of Defense from loaning or gifting any U.S. military aircraft to any organization which would conduct flight operations with said aircraft. Those aircraft could only be loaned or “conditionally donated” for static display only.
Last week I was contacted by the staff of Rep. John Mica(R-FL) about their concern for this amendment. Rep. Mica is the Chairman of the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, which includes 6 sub-committees –notably: Aviation. The staffer told me about the language in the amendment and the Congressman who is proposing it and I smelled trouble instantly - which I explained to Rep. Mica’s staff member. Rep. Turner from Ohio is the former Mayor of Dayton – home of the National Museum of the US Air Force (NMUSAF). As many of you will recall, we were involved in a lawsuit with the USAF (spearheaded by the Museum) over the F-82, which we eventually lost; resulting in us shipping the airplane back to the NMUSAF, where it sits – permanently grounded. The reason we ended up in a lawsuit was due to the confusion over the Air Force’s “donation” of this airplane to the CAF in the early 70’s. The lawsuit went on for several years and we lost the suit and the subsequent appeal. I won’t get into the specifics of why, but it stems from confusion over the Air Force’s definition of “donation.”
While researching and preparing for the F-82 lawsuit, I looked into other aircraft that we have with this type of arrangement. Much to my surprise, this arrangement is similar with our most prized asset…our B-29 FIFI. FIFI is possessed by the CAF as a “Conditional Donation.” This means the airplane is permanently ours as long as we meet certain conditions of care for the airplane. Now this is the same type of language that the USAF uses for all of the aircraft you see on display at static museums around the country. The big difference is that we also have a subsequent agreement to allow the CAF to conduct flight operations with FIFI – and so we have for nearly 40 years. Well, when I was in Washington D.C. a couple of years ago, I met with the Colonel that oversees the history of the Air Force and all of their Museums. I told him that I was afraid that they were going to try to take FIFI away, as they were trying to take back the F-82. He said, “our lawyers have looked at the agreement with the CAF and they think that this agreement is too strong.” As you can tell by that sentence, it said to me….if we could take her back we would, but we think we would lose that legal battle. That was scary, but also comforting…until now. The only way that the USAF Museum could ground FIFI is by changing the law such that it is illegal to fly her.
Go back up and re-read the Amendment bolded above.
So, you will see and hear more from me, more formally and publicly, in the near future.
Steve
"It was once believed that an infinite number of monkeys, typing on an infinite number of keyboards, would eventually reproduce the works of Shakespeare. However, with the advent of Internet messageboards we now know this is not the case."

Offline Tupac

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Re: FiFi needs YOUR help!
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2012, 04:48:46 PM »
Note: I didn't write that, it was copy pasted from another forum. Not only would this ground FiFi, but all of the other flying warbirds in the country. We CANT let that happen. Please write your congressman.
"It was once believed that an infinite number of monkeys, typing on an infinite number of keyboards, would eventually reproduce the works of Shakespeare. However, with the advent of Internet messageboards we now know this is not the case."

Offline JOACH1M

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Re: FiFi needs YOUR help!
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2012, 04:51:44 PM »
Note: I didn't write that, it was copy pasted from another forum. Not only would this ground FiFi, but all of the other flying warbirds in the country. We CANT let that happen. Please write your congressman.
If it happens to all ww2 A/c im packing everything i own in a canoe, and paddling over a 1 mile river the canada!  :bolt:
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Offline Babalonian

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Re: FiFi needs YOUR help!
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2012, 06:03:55 PM »
Many of you may have seen an article from EAA this morning in Indy Transponder about the potential grounding of all military aircraft on loan from the Department of Defense.

The short story is Michael Turner (R-OH) is proposing an amendment, “Title 10” to the House National Defense Authorization Act (H.R. 4310). I am attaching some links that further explain the situation -- the first one is the article from Indy Transponder this morning and the second is a blog post made this morning by Commemorative Air Force president, Steve Brown.

This amendment, if passed, will permanently ground the only flying B-29 in the world -- FIFI. Please contact Michael Turner and also your representative to express your opposition to his actions. Please.

http://www.eaa.org/news/2012/2012-04-18_title10.asp

Warbird Community Rises to Meet Threat

'Title 10 Amendment' could devastate historic aircraft fleet



April 18, 2012 - EAA and the Warbirds of America are joining with the Commemorative Air Force, Collings Foundation, and other warbird groups in opposition of a proposed amendment to the House National Defense Authorization Act (H.R. 4310) that could have a devastating effect on the fleet of civilian-operated historic military aircraft.
The amendment introduced by Rep. Michael Turner (R-OH) would bar the Department of Defense from loaning or gifting any U.S. military aircraft or parts to any entity except those that would put the aircraft on static display, such as in a museum. The amendment would preclude the aircraft from being loaned to private individuals, associations, or museums where there is any intent of flying the historic vintage warbirds, even at air shows or demonstrations of support for veterans.
Military branches such as the U.S. Air Force often do not donate aircraft to private groups outright; they instead "loan" them under a Defense Department provision, Section 2572 of Title 10, to individuals and groups for indefinite periods. These private individuals and groups usually restore and operate the aircraft at their own expense to demonstrate these pieces of flying history to events such as EAA AirVenture Oshkosh.
"The Department of Defense has made numerous attempts through the years to preclude any former military aircraft from being flown in civilian hands," said Doug Macnair, EAA's vice president of government relations. "This view has never been supported by any safety or security imperative and is currently being couched as a move to supposedly 'preserve' rare military aircraft. We can be assured that the U.S. military has neither the funding nor the mandate to preserve these aircraft in flying condition, which would leave the only option for them to be used as static museum displays. That would truly be a tragedy and a loss of our aviation and military heritage."
Rep. Turner's district includes Dayton, Ohio, home of the National Museum of the U.S. Air Force, which has been adamant in its attempts to ground former U.S. military aircraft. Ironically, Dayton is the same site where this week more than 20 B-25 bombers - preserved and flown by private groups and individuals - are gathering in a public spectacle to honor the 70th anniversary of the famed Doolittle Raid on Japan.
EAA and the other warbird groups are working with staff in the House's Armed Services Committee and Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, as well as the House General Aviation Caucus as the Defense Authorization Bill goes into initial committee review next week and to the House floor in early May. Although the exact language of the amendment has not been shared with the aviation community or widely on Capitol Hill, Rep. Turner plans to push the amendment despite initial congressional opposition.
EAA and Warbirds of America recommend that members contact their congressional representatives, urging them to voice their opposition to the Turner amendment and in support of maintaining the private ability to restore and fly these historic aircraft.



Steve's blog post:


http://commemorativeairforce.org/?pa...&cms_page=1267

Some of you may have already seen that EAA has released the story about Rep Michael Turner (R-OH) proposing an amendment, “Title 10” to the House National Defense Authorization Act (H.R. 4310). This is something I have been working on since last week, but since EAA has taken it public, I will give you the details.
The significance of “Title 10” is that it would bar the Department of Defense from loaning or gifting any U.S. military aircraft to any organization which would conduct flight operations with said aircraft. Those aircraft could only be loaned or “conditionally donated” for static display only.
Last week I was contacted by the staff of Rep. John Mica(R-FL) about their concern for this amendment. Rep. Mica is the Chairman of the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, which includes 6 sub-committees –notably: Aviation. The staffer told me about the language in the amendment and the Congressman who is proposing it and I smelled trouble instantly - which I explained to Rep. Mica’s staff member. Rep. Turner from Ohio is the former Mayor of Dayton – home of the National Museum of the US Air Force (NMUSAF). As many of you will recall, we were involved in a lawsuit with the USAF (spearheaded by the Museum) over the F-82, which we eventually lost; resulting in us shipping the airplane back to the NMUSAF, where it sits – permanently grounded. The reason we ended up in a lawsuit was due to the confusion over the Air Force’s “donation” of this airplane to the CAF in the early 70’s. The lawsuit went on for several years and we lost the suit and the subsequent appeal. I won’t get into the specifics of why, but it stems from confusion over the Air Force’s definition of “donation.”
While researching and preparing for the F-82 lawsuit, I looked into other aircraft that we have with this type of arrangement. Much to my surprise, this arrangement is similar with our most prized asset…our B-29 FIFI. FIFI is possessed by the CAF as a “Conditional Donation.” This means the airplane is permanently ours as long as we meet certain conditions of care for the airplane. Now this is the same type of language that the USAF uses for all of the aircraft you see on display at static museums around the country. The big difference is that we also have a subsequent agreement to allow the CAF to conduct flight operations with FIFI – and so we have for nearly 40 years. Well, when I was in Washington D.C. a couple of years ago, I met with the Colonel that oversees the history of the Air Force and all of their Museums. I told him that I was afraid that they were going to try to take FIFI away, as they were trying to take back the F-82. He said, “our lawyers have looked at the agreement with the CAF and they think that this agreement is too strong.” As you can tell by that sentence, it said to me….if we could take her back we would, but we think we would lose that legal battle. That was scary, but also comforting…until now. The only way that the USAF Museum could ground FIFI is by changing the law such that it is illegal to fly her.
Go back up and re-read the Amendment bolded above.
So, you will see and hear more from me, more formally and publicly, in the near future.
Steve


Wow, and I'll bet good money the stooge doesn't even know what historical gathering is taking place in his home state THIS SAME WEEK.   :rofl  :aok  :lol   Wonder whos fault this is?  :rolleyes:
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Wow, you guys need help.

Offline colmbo

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Re: FiFi needs YOUR help!
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2012, 06:50:46 PM »
Note: I didn't write that, it was copy pasted from another forum. Not only would this ground FiFi, but all of the other flying warbirds in the country. We CANT let that happen. Please write your congressman.

No, it will not ground all the warbirds, only those on loan from the government.  Many, many of the warbirds, probably most, are owned outright -- for instance the B-17 and B-24 of the Collings Foundation.  That B-24 was an RAF Liberator during the war then was given to the Indian government where it flew for many years before finally being purchased and taken to England where the Collings Foundation obtained her. 
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Offline colmbo

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Re: FiFi needs YOUR help!
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2012, 06:54:22 PM »
That being said the Collings Foundation has been fighting tooth and nail for many years to keep their airplanes flying.  They've had an airworthy Phantom for several years now but it rarely flies because of restrictions from the govt (this aircraft is probably one of the loan aircraft that would be grounded).

Write your Reps and raise a stink.
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Offline flight17

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Re: FiFi needs YOUR help!
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2012, 10:22:02 PM »
That being said the Collings Foundation has been fighting tooth and nail for many years to keep their airplanes flying.  They've had an airworthy Phantom for several years now but it rarely flies because of restrictions from the govt (this aircraft is probably one of the loan aircraft that would be grounded).

Write your Reps and raise a stink.
Im not sure, it took an act of congress for them to get it and operate it, but that was because of the whole 30 year thing. But i would assume, they actually own the F4. However, when i tried to find the act, i couldnt online.

It supprises me that the AF actually has a claim on Fifi, however, should it go to court, i think the CAF and ANY other museum that has a B29 on loan and are trying to fly it (Doc and the one in the North East US)will have no problem in winning. Remember, the CAF and others got fifi out of a weapons test range, a place where they were placed to be destroyed, not preserved.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2012, 10:25:34 PM by flight17 »
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Offline Babalonian

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Re: FiFi needs YOUR help!
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2012, 03:19:18 PM »
Im not sure, it took an act of congress for them to get it and operate it, but that was because of the whole 30 year thing. But i would assume, they actually own the F4. However, when i tried to find the act, i couldnt online.

It supprises me that the AF actually has a claim on Fifi, however, should it go to court, i think the CAF and ANY other museum that has a B29 on loan and are trying to fly it (Doc and the one in the North East US)will have no problem in winning. Remember, the CAF and others got fifi out of a weapons test range, a place where they were placed to be destroyed, not preserved.

Yeah, but the last thing FiFi (and many/most others) needs is to keep aloft a legal team of supreme portions.
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Wow, you guys need help.

Offline Bodhi

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Re: FiFi needs YOUR help!
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2012, 04:33:44 PM »
It supprises me that the AF actually has a claim on Fifi, however, should it go to court, i think the CAF and ANY other museum that has a B29 on loan and are trying to fly it (Doc and the one in the North East US)will have no problem in winning. Remember, the CAF and others got fifi out of a weapons test range, a place where they were placed to be destroyed, not preserved.

Disagree.  The AirForce / DoD was very clear on the "on loan" language in many agreements.  One need only look at the P-82 fiasco to see that the language did support the AirForce / DoD version of things, especially the first right of refusal.  I don't agree with them arguing over this stuff, but the language was put in place to defend the actions. 

The one thing I do find a bit concerning is the operation of very high performance jets.  That really is not a super great idea in my eyes for any civilian to own if they have the money.  The potential for catastrophic loss of life is simply too high for operation by those who might not be qualified to operate the aircraft.  I do believe that the arrangement the Collings Foundation has with the Phantom is a great way for it to be handled though.
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Offline flight17

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Re: FiFi needs YOUR help!
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2012, 09:48:57 PM »
Disagree.  The AirForce / DoD was very clear on the "on loan" language in many agreements.  One need only look at the P-82 fiasco to see that the language did support the AirForce / DoD version of things, especially the first right of refusal.  I don't agree with them arguing over this stuff, but the language was put in place to defend the actions. 
this new law is "to preserve rare aircraft", however my point is without the caf, the many b29s we now have would have been permanately lost due to the actions by our government. If I were the judge, I would side with the museums specifically because of that reason even though the af still claims the aircraft. You cant put an aircraft out to pasture to get blown up and then when someone else comes and saves it expect to be able to say you can no longer fly it due to the possibility of losing the aircraft in an accident... This is assuming this law gets passed and a suit filed.
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Offline LCADolby

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Re: FiFi needs YOUR help!
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2012, 09:09:14 AM »
It won't happen the senetor of Texas is a member of the ComemorativeAF and has his own WWII Texan, so I hear.
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Offline Bodhi

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Re: FiFi needs YOUR help!
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2012, 10:33:03 AM »
this new law is "to preserve rare aircraft", however my point is without the caf, the many b29s we now have would have been permanately lost due to the actions by our government. If I were the judge, I would side with the museums specifically because of that reason even though the af still claims the aircraft. You cant put an aircraft out to pasture to get blown up and then when someone else comes and saves it expect to be able to say you can no longer fly it due to the possibility of losing the aircraft in an accident... This is assuming this law gets passed and a suit filed.

Having been neck deep in the P-82 fiasco I would venture to say I have a very good understanding on how and why the USAF and DoD did what they did.  It is what it is.  The language of the original DoD / CAF agreement was very clear and the law is the law.  The argument that because the USAF placed B-29's on the range as targets means absolutely nothing.  In their eyes, it was obsolete equipment that they found a final use for.

As for the argument of preserving rare aircraft, the military and DoD really have no right being involved in that argument.  Sure, there are a few museums, but a large portion of their collections are left outside to rot.  That presents a very clear argument that they are not capable of being proper stewards of rare aircraft.  Further, the individual or group that comes along and legally acquires a warbird, properly restores it, and foots the bill to operate it generally demonstrates better stewardship of these aircraft.  Sure aircraft are lost, but had it not been for the racers and hotdogs of the late '60's through the '80s, most of these birds would not be around at all, so to say that the military and DoD is all concerned these days is rather moot considering their attitude for so many years.

In my opinion, this is a power play and one aimed clearly at the CAF for daring to fight the DoD and USAF on the P-82 issue.
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Offline AHTbolt

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Re: FiFi needs YOUR help!
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2012, 12:42:00 PM »
I have been an e-mailing fool, the Texas House members are tired of hearing from me. Plus my Niece works for Senator John Cornyn, so she is going to put the bug right in his ear.
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