Lufwaffe, Wulf and ramblings of a madman

[Pongo]

Ya you are probably right. I would feel better about it if the 50 hadnt been hoped up after a wining campaign several versions ago. Found some new cold hard numbers I guess.
kinetic energy again funked.....these thing dont use it to kill remember funked....try to remember how the cannon works. Any kinetic energy that does not serve accuracy is wasted. chemical energy is used for the kill...try to remember...
that is why this load out appeared on ground attack planes. It really helps for AP atacks on tanks and trucks and trains..it is somewhat wasted on aircraft....
chemical energy funked
chemical energy
which round was more efficiently fuzed? where are your numbers on that....
how did there accuracy compare at 450-650 yards...1.7 times as much? I doubt it. Probably indistiguishable. I would admit that the M2 would hit way better at 1300 yards. but the pracitcal limitations should make that shot near imposible against fighters so why
The values that should be used to compare cannons on fighters for air to air use are.

Accuracy at reasonable ranges. 600?
probably should be little dif at that range. starts to go to the M2 after
Blast effecitveness of the round.
"HE. High Explosive rounds were traditionally made by boring out the core of a solid projectile, then filling it with explosive. The German Minengeschoß rounds introduced a different manufacturing technique: A thin shell was drawn, in the same way as a cartridge case is drawn. This resulted in a much larger explosive capacity for the same calibre, and became widespread after the war"
Hisp was somewhat weak in this area. 151 was renouned for it.
Rate of fire.
Only 100 rpm faster for the 151
Reliabilty.
Never a statement read about worry concerning unreliable 151s.
Opisite for the M2

Hard to put numbers on..Is the HE capability of the 151 1.7 times as good as the M2? hard to say.

[Citabria]

guns are accurate...
their effectiveness is uber due to one thing:

ICONS

[funked]

Pongo that's the kind of stuff I want you to post!

Don't force me to keep trolling to get you to say it!

 


[This message has been edited by funked (edited 05-03-2000).]

[Pongo]

Cit..
Certainly the neon range finder is a big difference between here and WW2 that makes balanceing between historical accounts and arena results very difficult.
Could there be something else about gunnery effecitveness that they are missing.
I think one of the big problems with trying to quantify this kind of thing is that they didnt seem to want to dwell on it after the war. And People that have fired both sides guns in combat are rare.

BUT
I have never played any sim that felt as good as this one for gunnery modeling...
Its accuracy is phenominal, and I have learned a great deal about different guns in WW2 since starting to play the game.
But the Hispano still seems overdone. I even talked to a Beaufighter pilot about it and he said it was somewhat unreliable but hit ships like a  hammer, unfortunatly he had little stick time on a 109 to compare it too the 151. Athough he got hit by a 20mm german shell(ack) and could attest to the damage caused by even one.  
If there is some oversight in how velocity effects killing power using HE shells then the mk103 will certainly show it up as well.
By the measures I have seen and looking at how the M2 behaves in the game the 103 should be putting one of those mine shells onto a bomber or non manuvering fighter at 2k......The germans did not find it worth the weight for air to air use..but I bet we will..and look at the size of that round!
 

[leonid]

Ditto.  And not to be disparaging to other, skilled 109 AH experten, but if you want to see what it was like to fly like the real Abbeville Boys I'd strongly suggest flying with Hristos.

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leonid, Komandir
5 GIAP VVS RKKA

"Our cause is just.  The enemy will be crushed.  Victory will be ours."

[funked]

Yep Hristo flies like Hartman.  

I can't muster the patience to attempt it other than during scenarios, but it's great to see somebody practicing the art in the way it was done historically.

[crabofix]

 

Originally posted by funked:
Pongo, I didn't say anything was modeled correctly.

You said you were suprised that the Hispanos and Fifties were more powerful than the German guns.

I pointed out several cold hard facts that indicate you shouldn't be surprised.

If you want to demonstrate that the Hispanos are modeled incorrectly, here's how you might do it:

1.  You quantify how strong it is in the game relative to the MG 151/20.

2.  You quantify how strong it was in the war relative to the MG 151/20.

3.  If the results of 1. and 2. disagree, you point it out to HTC.

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 05-02-2000).]

A 20mm is a 20 mm And it should make no diffrance only it hits target, case length and so on has nothing to do with it. Thats only balistic stuff, maybe it is even better if a explosive shell is slower. Making it a more "trusty" round.  Ofcourse this is not true, talking about ap ammo, thats another story.


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BORK,BORK,BORK!!!"
Crabofix <What happend?...:A stranger morgie turndee burndee ,flip flip flip flip flip flip>
Flygflottlj.19(Lento R5)"swedish Gladiators"

[Hangtime]

great thread.. wh'yd I have to find it at 3:00am??  

Outstanding stuff there jochen.. There are many amongst us that on any given sortie can be found flying their AC in keeping with the appropriate tactics for the type. With appropriate results.   I love flyin against LW A/C flown the way ther're supposed to fly 'em (That damn G-10 just climbed away!!!...).. And lest ye forget, there's some good pony teams riding around, too.   Notably; for the bish, Rude and Yeager when teamed up are awe inspiring to watch.

As for the .50's on the allied A/C .. IMHO, they about right.. I can inflict severe damage with the icons on at 600 yards.. ping 'em reliably at 400 or less. (icons!)I think that they are doin a fair job at HTC with the guns at least. The various cannon types are all felt on my pony with similar effect. It flys apart.   Even little spit BB's tear me apart just fine; thank you.  

Getting good .50 cal fire performance takes patience and skill and appropriate convergence settings and it ain't easy gettin it all worked out for a good shot, and you know it! Sniping a guy outta the sky at 700 or more yards may sound outrageous, but truth be told I've never done it more than 3 or 4 times and it always cost me at least 1/2 my ammo to inflict enuff damage to count..

Who here routinely snaps up targets at 700 yards with .50 cal fire?? Anybody got more than a handful of these 'uber' kills? I've been punched outta the sky plenty of times by kannonen at 700 yards.  

Spray and pray just don't work with the .50's... I've found that short 1 to 2 second (TOPS) bursts for effective fire can be delivered very accuratly.. long sustained bursts are wildly dispersed no matter how stable the sight picture and deflection being applied.  

Finally, I think we're all shootin one hell of a lot better than out historical counterparts all things considered.. Icons most definitly have a big impact here.

(yawn) my 2 cents..

Hang