Author Topic: Double Trouble!!  (Read 1910 times)

Offline earl1937

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Re: Double Trouble!!
« Reply #30 on: September 26, 2013, 02:22:39 PM »
Yep.  Hence maybe the desire for blades to travel up on the inboard (like the P-38) so that inboard stalls first (although, again, other factors might have been more important -- I need to look at Bodie's book).

On the F-82, they seem to travel down inboard, so I guess other factors were more important (like Earl was talking about)?
:airplane: Just to add to discussion, any aircraft which is sitting in a 3 point stance, i.e., with a tail wheel, is going to be subjected to stronger "P" factor and torque effects than an aircraft which is a tricycle gear, with a nose wheel. In any aircraft which the prop turns to the right, as looking from the pilots seat, The torque and "P" factor pulls to the left, confirming the theory that the "descending" blade takes a more effective "bite" of air, than does the ascending blade. In any twin engine aircraft, with counter-rotating props, such as the F-82, the effects of "P" factor and torque are pretty much balance out, because the decending blade is same away from the center line of the aircraft. However, you must understand that just as you lift off the runway on takeoff, and you lose power in either of the two engines, now, because the thrust line is off-set, the "P" factor and torque effect is very pronounced and very dangerous.
In viewing these responses, I am reminded of a problem that Piper aircraft company had with a "Twin Comanche"! What the NTSB found was this: if the power failed on the left engine, then, because of the short fuseledge and small vertical stabilizer and small rudder, the aircraft was almost uncontrollable below 110MPH IAS, because the effect thrust was so far away from the center line of the aircraft. If the right engine quit or lost power, the effects were nowhere as pronounced because the thrust area of the descending blade of the left engine, next to the fuseledge was closer to the center line of the aircraft. They applied the same fix as the fix on the F-82, and you had VMC the same with either engine loss.
About the same time they were having problems with this great little twin, Cessna aircraft company came out with the 337, which had one engine in front, and one engine in back, therebye eliminating VMC. The only problem that had was that if you lost the rear engine at or near gross weight, it would only climb, about 250 to 300 feet per minute. If you lost the front engine, it would climb about 500 feet per minute on the rear engine.
Business end of a Twin Comanche!

This us the military version of the Cessna 337, which was used as a FAC aircraft in Vietnam.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2013, 02:29:23 PM by earl1937 »
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Offline colmbo

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Re: Double Trouble!!
« Reply #31 on: September 26, 2013, 08:17:38 PM »
Also reference the Cessna 337.  Early on there was a tendency for the rear engine to overheat during extended taxiing.  Some folks would either not the rear engine until getting to the runway to prevent the overheating problem.....but they then forgot to start/restart the rear engine and attempted takeoff with just the front engine.
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Offline earl1937

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Re: Double Trouble!!
« Reply #32 on: September 27, 2013, 10:36:26 AM »
Also reference the Cessna 337.  Early on there was a tendency for the rear engine to overheat during extended taxiing.  Some folks would either not the rear engine until getting to the runway to prevent the overheating problem.....but they then forgot to start/restart the rear engine and attempted takeoff with just the front engine.
:airplane: You sir, are correct, I have seen that before, twice, once at Charlie Brown in Atlanta, and once at Lakefront in New Oleans. Both times, I got on the radio, as other people did, and warn the guy, as we were both on tower frequencies. If you research the NTSB accident records on the 337, I bet you would find at least 3 or 4. A doctor I knew in Atlanta had a pressurized version of this aircraft and he loved it.
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Offline Wmaker

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Re: Double Trouble!!
« Reply #33 on: September 27, 2013, 11:23:28 AM »
Not that I should play aircraft designer here, but if instead of one air intake on top, there would have been two on the sides below the wing? Probably not as efficient drag/wing efficiency-wise, but it would have put the intakes more into the slipstream of the front engine while taxiing. Of course you would have had to redesign the air exits then as well.
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Offline earl1937

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Re: Double Trouble!!
« Reply #34 on: September 27, 2013, 11:42:42 AM »
Not that I should play aircraft designer here, but if instead of one air intake on top, there would have been two on the sides below the wing? Probably not as efficient drag/wing efficiency-wise, but it would have put the intakes more into the slipstream of the front engine while taxiing. Of course you would have had to redesign the air exits then as well.
:airplane: I have heard that discussion before by some people I have respect for and you make a good point! Why Cessna decided to do it the way they did, I don't know, guess we would have to talk to the design engineer for that one. Good question though!
Blue Skies and wind at my back and wish that for all!!!