Author Topic: FriKOTH in 2 hours  (Read 543 times)

Offline JunkyII

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FriKOTH in 2 hours
« on: March 18, 2016, 02:02:57 PM »
Who's going to be there?
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Offline Gman

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Re: FriKOTH in 2 hours
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2016, 02:41:46 PM »
I'm going to come - I still don't understand the engagement rules, they seem murky on when you can and can't jump somebody - ie you always have to be going to the nearest guy to fight, but what if THAT guy is the nearest guy for another pilot - yet the rules say you can't jump into a 1v1...I don't get how that is supposed to work then..

This is what i mean -

Quote
* Either be IN a fight, or headed TO the closest fight at all times!
  * Running (refusing to engage) for an extended period of time is NOT allowed.

Followed by

Quote
NO WINGING! (dog piling on a 2-timer is NOT winging)
  * Winging is a coordinated attack on a single plane or when engaged with multiple targets passing up obvious shots or maneuvering deliberately away from 1 person to get the other first.
  * Can dogpile the Wabbit ONLY!
  * Can't pass up fights to get to the wabbit!

Who TH wrote these rules like this?  Makes NO sense at all.  So I  have to be headed towards the nearest guy to fight - say I do, but then say someone else from another vector had the same idea, and we 3 are now closest only to each other.  According to the "no winging" rule, I can't attack one of the other 2 planes now, so wtf are you supposed to do now, when it specifically says also you can't "fly away" from a potential fight.  Then, whatever the 'wabbit' is - this isn't even explained - you CAN dogpile (I assume that's 2v3v/etcv/1 HIM, but only him...oh ya, him AND whoever the "2 timer" is..and again, no explanation for wtf that is supposed to be.

Most difficult to understand, and lacking in explanation, rules for any AH event I've seen.  I wish somebody would fix this tbh, and clarify wth is supposed to be going on in the event. 
« Last Edit: March 18, 2016, 02:52:53 PM by Gman »

Offline fuzeman

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Re: FriKOTH in 2 hours
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2016, 05:41:35 PM »
I'm going to come - I still don't understand the engagement rules, they seem murky on when you can and can't jump somebody - ie you always have to be going to the nearest guy to fight, but what if THAT guy is the nearest guy for another pilot - yet the rules say you can't jump into a 1v1...I don't get how that is supposed to work then..

This is what i mean -

Followed by

Who TH wrote these rules like this?  Makes NO sense at all.  So I  have to be headed towards the nearest guy to fight - say I do, but then say someone else from another vector had the same idea, and we 3 are now closest only to each other.  According to the "no winging" rule, I can't attack one of the other 2 planes now, so wtf are you supposed to do now, when it specifically says also you can't "fly away" from a potential fight.  Then, whatever the 'wabbit' is - this isn't even explained - you CAN dogpile (I assume that's 2v3v/etcv/1 HIM, but only him...oh ya, him AND whoever the "2 timer" is..and again, no explanation for wtf that is supposed to be.

Most difficult to understand, and lacking in explanation, rules for any AH event I've seen.  I wish somebody would fix this tbh, and clarify wth is supposed to be going on in the event.

Where do the rules say you can't jump into a 1 v 1?   In KOTH there ARE NO 1v1s, unless there are only 2 people left. Rules developed over time, many added to deal with issues that arose when certain folks pushed the envelope quite a bit. No winging means you fight alone against everyone else. You get to a fight YOU engage!
A wabbit is someone who can win the event with their next win, they have won two rounds already so the event will end if they win another. So it's in everyone's best interest to dogpile on the wabbits to give the non-wabbits a chance to win or at least keep the event going and prevent the wabbit from getting a win.
We used to go over the rules before each event to give people a chance to clear things up and if you have any sense at all you pick up the rules after a few rounds and develop your technique. Then again when we did recite the rules, many people never bothered to listen or understand them so we were screwed if we did and screwed if we didn't.

and in your second quote, you can easily get the definition of a wabbit.
it says "dog piling on a 2-timer is NOT winging"   and then
"Can dogpile the Wabbit ONLY!"
Need to be a genius to figure out what a wabbit is with that?
« Last Edit: March 18, 2016, 05:51:21 PM by fuzeman »
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Offline Bruv119

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Re: FriKOTH in 2 hours
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2016, 07:14:37 AM »
Didnt see this thread junky what happened to you disco??

Gman it is pretty straight forward if you show up and play in it.   Can't really write wall of text replies from my phone but the rules have evolved over the last 12 years every one has sound reasoning behind them.

was some good fighting going down if the wabbit hunters had been on their game after half time could have gone on another couple of hours.
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Offline JunkyII

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Re: FriKOTH in 2 hours
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2016, 10:01:40 AM »
Didnt see this thread junky what happened to you disco??

Gman it is pretty straight forward if you show up and play in it.   Can't really write wall of text replies from my phone but the rules have evolved over the last 12 years every one has sound reasoning behind them.

was some good fighting going down if the wabbit hunters had been on their game after half time could have gone on another couple of hours.
Yea I discoed but had some other RL things to get to so I didn't log back on. Had some good fights before I did though.
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Offline Gman

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Re: FriKOTH in 2 hours
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2016, 10:22:41 PM »
Quote
and in your second quote, you can easily get the definition of a wabbit.
it says "dog piling on a 2-timer is NOT winging"   and then
"Can dogpile the Wabbit ONLY!"
Need to be a genius to figure out what a wabbit is with that?

Well, maybe the "genius" dictionary you use works differently, but when I see TWO different unexplained slang terms in separate sentences in a paragraph in point form, I usually think it's reasonable to assume that they are describing TWO different things.  If I was to tell you "tag teaming an old timer is not winging", and then write a new sentence saying "can tag team the moose only", how in gods name would anyone assume that old timer and moose mean the same thing.   It's ridiculous to assume anyone would know these are the same thing.  2-timer/Wabbit - if it was written like that - obvious.  They way it is now, not at all.

Again, as written now the rules say "no winging", and then define winging as "a coordinated attack on a single plane".  How is that going to be understood by anyone who reads it having never played KOTH as not being a 2 (or more) v 1?  That taken with the other rules about engagements makes those rules be in conflict then, ie wth do you do then when the closest con to you is in a fight, orbit and wait?  I honestly thought that was how it worked in KOTH due to the "winging" rule write up as it stands.  Ask Bruv, I pm'd him months ago about it trying to understand it.

Quote
Where do the rules say you can't jump into a 1 v 1?   In KOTH there ARE NO 1v1s, unless there are only 2 people left. Rules developed over time, many added to deal with issues that arose when certain folks pushed the envelope quite a bit. No winging means you fight alone against everyone else. You get to a fight YOU engage!
A wabbit is someone who can win the event with their next win, they have won two rounds already so the event will end if they win another. So it's in everyone's best interest to dogpile on the wabbits to give the non-wabbits a chance to win or at least keep the event going and prevent the wabbit from getting a win.
We used to go over the rules before each event to give people a chance to clear things up and if you have any sense at all you pick up the rules after a few rounds and develop your technique. Then again when we did recite the rules, many people never bothered to listen or understand them so we were screwed if we did and screwed if we didn't.

This makes my entire point - if THAT was just written into the rules, it would make 10x more sense than how the rules about engaging/playing stand now.  I understand that the rules have evolved over time as well as the slang terms used, but what has NOT evolved with them is an explanation of how KOTH works along with a clear set of rules written in the Koth forum for interested players who haven't played it before. 

I still don't understand rule 3 really either. 

Quote
3) upon launching, do your best to get separation on the rest of your opponents. A icon separation of 5K minimum is required, try to get out of icon range if at all possible.
  * If you are under 5k range when the Host CM calls “NoJoy Time”, the 'NoJoy' rule applies.
  * NoJoy rule means u CAN’T engage a person within 5k range when “Fights On” is called by the Host CM if you or someone called NoJoy.
  * You both must find someone else to fight first.
  * If BOTH people agree to fight after separating they can cancel their nojoy.

So, as it's written, everyone takes off, diverges away from one another, and at some point the CM is going to then call "no joy time", and THEN at some time after that the CM will call "fights on", and the IF you're under 5k from your closest opponent, THEN the nojoy rule applies?  Unless you both cancel it, but only after "separating" can they cancel it.  Separating how, and how far, etc?  See what I mean - not clearly written for the uninitiated.  Is the "no joy time" given first to give you a chance to get further than the 5k distance before "fights on" is called, so that you don't have to go through the nojoy rule canel procedure?  I would assume that is how it works, but again, it's not stated so, at all, I'm just guessing. 

Bruv - I'll come next time, had a power issue and couldn't yesterday, or I would have.  As you said playing a few rounds will = understanding the rules completely, but I've always RTFM, twice, and doing so in this case just gave me more questions than answers. 








« Last Edit: March 19, 2016, 10:44:41 PM by Gman »

Offline JunkyII

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Re: FriKOTH in 2 hours
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2016, 01:13:17 AM »
I will say this as someone who can't write...I can teach a person how to kill someone but I can't write down instructions on it....the hosts (to include old hosts like fuzrman) will answer via vox any question from anyone so there really isn't confusion unless the person is A griefing...or B a dumb--ass. The rules are pretty simple, fighting against people like TC, Anarchy, Rudboi, Trogdor ect ect...that is where the challenge lies and the real fun starts.
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Offline lunatic1

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Re: FriKOTH in 2 hours
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2016, 09:12:28 PM »
I have never flown in KOTH, because I never really cared for it-and and never enough peeps in squad on that want to play any way..
and so I may not have the right to speak on this-but I agree with GMAN-it seems to me the rules only help the best pilots-not the ones trying to be the best pilots--why can't you talk on range-what does that hurt.might try it this Friday or whenever it's on again
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Offline Gman

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Re: FriKOTH in 2 hours
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2016, 12:40:55 AM »
To be clear, I'm not criticizing the rules, just how they are written and explained.  As Groovy Bruvy said, I'm sure they evolved for good reasons, I'd just like to have a clearer representation of them.

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: FriKOTH in 2 hours
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2016, 12:27:49 PM »
I'd like to see a KoTH at a time that is west coast friendly, these things seem to be set up more for the east coast people while the west coast people are still in the middle of the day at work or school.

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Offline Gman

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Re: FriKOTH in 2 hours
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2016, 01:48:50 PM »
I think the time is probably set so that those in Europe aren't up at midnight to 2AM to play as well.  Being on a work day, I understand how getting a time that's after work for west coast people yet not in the middle of the night for the UK and Europe isn't easy.  Maybe Sunday would be a better day, or working around the weekend/other scenarios, as FSO has the "good" weekday already wrapped up.

KOTH IMO should be one of the busiest events out there - fast, fun, etc.  As AkAk said, a better time as a large swath of the players/population are West Coast and still at work/etc, and again, a more clear description of the event and rules would probably make a good start in making it more popular. 
« Last Edit: March 22, 2016, 01:51:56 PM by Gman »

Offline JunkyII

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Re: FriKOTH in 2 hours
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2016, 03:29:05 PM »
I'd like to see a KoTH at a time that is west coast friendly, these things seem to be set up more for the east coast people while the west coast people are still in the middle of the day at work or school.

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I would like to see a 10-12 PM EST start time for the exact reason you say here, maybe every other month to go with SatKoth...but unfortunately it does take a host that is willing to take their time to run it.

Second SatKoTH starting at 11 EST? Would that satisfy the west coasters prime time? I do know that normal SatKOTH ends about that time when started at 8 EST. Bruv, what do you think about a third KOTH per month? We couldn't ask you or crabby for another night but remember my offer is still out there :aok

I have never flown in KOTH, because I never really cared for it-and and never enough peeps in squad on that want to play any way..
and so I may not have the right to speak on this-but I agree with GMAN-it seems to me the rules only help the best pilots-not the ones trying to be the best pilots--why can't you talk on range-what does that hurt.might try it this Friday or whenever it's on again
Could you explain how it helps better pilots? Not trying to start crap but I just don't know how it gives better pilots an advantage...

Talking on range in flight is fine...we all do it, TC and I always announce when we are coming in on a fight and will give each other good lucks prior to our fights(which are always epic) I think in the rules it says you have to talk on range while in the tower so as to not disturb the rest of the pilots still fighting.
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